Staggering rounds in an EDC


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Eb1
June 29, 2013, 05:21 AM
I got to thinking last night that having a full mag of HP in .380 doesn't make much sense.

So that count would go like this:

1) HP(chamber)
2) HP
3) FMJ-FN
4) HP
5) FMJ-FN
6) HP
7) FMJ-FN
8) FMJ-FN
9) FMJ-FN

Next mag:
1) HP
2) FMJ-FN
3) HP
4) FMJ-FN
5) HP
6) FMJ-FN
7) FMJ-FN
8) FMJ-FN

Last mag:

8x FMJ-FN

Does anyone else stagger their rounds despite it being a .380 ACP or whatever you decide to carry?

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wheelyfun66
June 29, 2013, 06:58 AM
Don't over think it.....

Might want to step up in caliber, if it takes that much thought on what order to load your mag in.......;)

JTQ
June 29, 2013, 07:02 AM
Here is a very recent (current) thread on the same subject.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=720791

harvester
June 29, 2013, 07:10 AM
Bad idea.

CDW4ME
June 29, 2013, 08:15 AM
I guess that order assumes every shot is a good hit, but not getting the desired result?

What if shots miss?

I would just load the magazine with the ammo I thought was the "best".

ku4hx
June 29, 2013, 08:16 AM
Here is a very recent (current) thread on the same subject.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=720791
This ^^^ All of three days ago.

Walkalong
June 29, 2013, 08:48 AM
Can you keep track of rounds during the stress of self defense? Just load up your favorite round that your pistol runs 100% with, practice your shooting and work on mindset.

What are the three most important things for self defense, in order?

Mindset, mindset, mindset, a weapon you are proficient with, ammo.

orionengnr
June 29, 2013, 09:55 AM
To me, "Dutch loading" indicates indecisiveness, or a lack of confidence in one's chosen(?) round.

After owning two P3ATs and two LCPs, I no longer own a .380. As easy as they are to carry, I never had the confidence in the cartridge. Simple solution--step up to a 9mm or .38 Spl.

farm23
June 29, 2013, 10:08 AM
In my 1911 I alternate 230 gr Hyra-Shok & 230 gr ball. They shoot to the same POA and the ball will penetrate more if needed. At least in my 45 I have not had a problem with function and as I said with both the same weight they shoot to the same place.

easyg
June 29, 2013, 04:44 PM
I got to thinking last night that having a full mag of HP in .380 doesn't make much sense.

Why?

If the HP expands it will make a bigger wound.
And if it doesn't expand it will perform the same as a non-HP.

Now if you're afraid that you will not get enough penetration, then I would suggest a step up in caliber.

smalls
June 29, 2013, 04:59 PM
In my 1911 I alternate 230 gr Hyra-Shok & 230 gr ball. They shoot to the same POA and the ball will penetrate more if needed. At least in my 45 I have not had a problem with function and as I said with both the same weight they shoot to the same place.

And if it's not needed, and not desired? Then your stuck with it in the chamber.

VetPsychWars
June 29, 2013, 05:36 PM
And if it's not needed, and not desired? Then your stuck with it in the chamber.

Or cycle it or shoot it into the ground.

Too much thinking, not enough experience. I never expect to pull a pistol, and if I do, the other guy is going to mess his pants and run, mostly.

Tom

smalls
June 29, 2013, 05:42 PM
Or cycle it or
Most SD scenarios are over within a matter of seconds. I doubt you'll even remember to do this, or which round is which.

shoot it into the ground.

Sounds dangerous. Not to mention if you have time to shoot at the ground, I imagine you're no longer in imminent danger.

VetPsychWars
June 29, 2013, 05:50 PM
Most SD scenarios are over within a matter of seconds. I doubt you'll even remember to do this, or which round is which.



Sounds dangerous. Not to mention if you have time to shoot at the ground, I imagine you're no longer in imminent danger.
I actually agree with you.

Tom

45_auto
June 29, 2013, 05:58 PM
I alternate HP, ball, tracer in my 45's. Would include some incendiary if I could find it.

A pistol isn't powerful enough to count on stopping anything, and you can never tell how much penetration you'll need or what you might need to shoot through.

I figure on shooting until the threat is stopped, and besides it looks cool at night! ;)

rooter
June 29, 2013, 06:03 PM
What on earth would ever lead you to believe such a thing is a good idea?

SpentCasing
June 29, 2013, 07:37 PM
Kyle DeFoor uses/recommends this exact thing with 9mm. HP/ball/HP/ball etc. I personally do not, but with 380 I get the idea. Just sayin....

smalls
June 29, 2013, 07:44 PM
Too much thinking, not enough experience. I never expect to pull a pistol, and if I do, the other guy is going to mess his pants and run, mostly.

None of us wish to draw our weapons. If we're forced to we hope this happens, but it doesn't always work out the way we want. And if things go south, we want the best ammo for the situation in our guns.

VetPsychWars
June 29, 2013, 07:56 PM
Again, I agree with you, but let's look at the numbers.

Say that I load so that the top two rounds are Federal HST and the next five are ball.

Using real data, what are the chances that a random concealed carrier will get that third round off?

I understand and agree that you plan for your enemy's capabilities and not intentions... but sometimes it seems like we're posturing and jacking off for no reason. The most important thing is that you know the gun you're carrying. You know it like you know a body part.

Then you actually choose to carry it.

Then you have had training to at least have SOME clue about when to use it.

Then, goddess forbid, you have to pull the damn thing, you hit what you're aiming at.

THEN, perhaps, we can argue about what's in the magazine.

Right?

Tom

Eb1
June 29, 2013, 08:08 PM
Fine. Fine.

I went back to all Ranger T's in the mag, a spare with Ranger T's, and another with all FMJ.
I stagger my shotguns. Didn't think it'd make such a rukus over the .380. I don't doubt that a .380 ACP is good defense for my EDC.
I work at home, and I don't go to malls. I don't go to crack neighborhoods to buy meth or dope from anyone. I don't use dope.
I don't like 9mm in small frames. I cannot shoot them well. I can shoot full size 9mm like my XD9 just fine, but cannot carry it. I do carry a J-Frame .32 H&R Magnum, but I have been carrying S&W Long in it as they shoot way more accurately than the 100 grain XTPs that I have in 32 H&R Magnum. I'll take being able to hit my target by shooting a lessor round than hoping I do with a more powerful round.
I don't know why the 100 grain XTPs do not shoot well. The last batch did, but this batch does not. I bought them from the same manufacturer. Must be a component change on their part.

I love my .380 ACP. Great shooter, easy to conceal, has a 3.5" barrel, and very accurate. I am not at all questioning the purchase of the .380 ACP. It might have came across this way, but I didn't mean to make it a debate of the .380 ACP. I just know that skin and bone are way more elastic and tough than blue jeans and jello.
Needles to say. I will take the groups advice. I do respect Walkalong's and rcmodel's opinion. They have never lead me wrong on the board. They have helped me work out some issues with guns, and with handloading.

Back to single stacked mags with like ammo, and a mag of FMJ for that rare, rare, and hopefully never day that I get trapped in a situation that needs it.

herrwalther
June 29, 2013, 08:11 PM
.380 is the only chambering I carry FMJ in certain picky firearms. But when I do it is all FMJ or all HP. As I said in the other thread, mix and matching is ill advised.

Eb1
June 29, 2013, 08:52 PM
I don't understand why it is ill advised. That part I don't understand. Ill advised for what reason?

Legality? Functionality?

Legality shouldn't be an issue. A bullet is a bullet. I know from experience a staggered mag doesn't matter when it comes to legality.

Functionality shouldn't matter if you have proven that shots are to the same POA, and both rounds function in the gun.

What is "ill advised" about it. I don't mind listening to reason, and changing my mind, but I still don't understand "ill advised".

Eb1
June 29, 2013, 08:56 PM
Hey, Tom. You ever had to deal with a SD situation in real life where someone was shot?
I have dealt with it. Real life. Real shooting. Real mop that mopped up the blood.

smalls
June 29, 2013, 09:46 PM
Using real data, what are the chances that a random concealed carrier will get that third round off?

It's not uncommon for them to just dump their whole mag. Adrenaline makes you "just go".

VetPsychWars
June 29, 2013, 09:55 PM
Hey, Tom. You ever had to deal with a SD situation in real life where someone was shot?
I have dealt with it. Real life. Real shooting. Real mop that mopped up the blood.

I have not. I'm sorry you've had to do that. You're the one poor bastard we point at when we say "one in a million".

I wish that there was some way that I could help, but I can't.

If you haven't done it yet, assuming this is recent, ask your local police department for a referral to their shooting counselor.

Tom

Eb1
June 29, 2013, 10:35 PM
deleted.

rcmodel
June 29, 2013, 10:39 PM
Posturing might be a permissible High Road term?

But I'm pretty sure the other term isn't.

You both need to cool it I think.

rc

Eb1
June 29, 2013, 11:05 PM
I agree, rcmodel. And I had reservations on retyping or even quoting the comment. I have deleted my re-post knowing that it isn't HighRoad material.
Losing posting capabilities on here for me would be a great misfortune.

herrwalther
June 30, 2013, 10:54 AM
Hey, Tom. You ever had to deal with a SD situation in real life where someone was shot?
I have dealt with it. Real life. Real shooting. Real mop that mopped up the blood.

As have I. Except a mop wasn't required. HP by and large perform better than FMJ rounds for self defense. Why would you limit yourself to an under performing round? The only consideration to take into account for using FMJ other than reliability is when penetration is necessary, such as behind a soft barrier. For larger calibers that would be a concern but not as much for .380 since HP or FMJ do not penetrate soft barriers well. So if reliability is not a factor, price (as in the other thread) isn't a factor, and the penetration difference is null for a .380, why would you go with a sub-standard SD round?

fastbolt
June 30, 2013, 12:26 PM
Joining this a bit late, it seems ...

I got to thinking last night that having a full mag of HP in .380 doesn't make much sense.

I don't understand your reasoning in that sentence.

Why not?

Why even use any of a certain type of ammunition if it doesn't make much sense?

Some special reason to determining the sequence of the different loads? If so, would situational context change that sequencing?

Maybe a training class or two, and some increased focus on demanding practice, might take your mind off the needless distraction of the "staggered bullet type" thing.

It's a handgun, not a Banana Split, right? ;)

hentown
June 30, 2013, 04:00 PM
There is NO cogent reason for staggering rounds in a pistol.

Snowdog
July 1, 2013, 01:40 AM
My P238HD is loaded and chambered with RA380T, with a spare mag of the same. I'm perfectly content and see no reason to throw a couple FMJs in the mix.

The .380acp Ranger-T is fairly well regarded and has a good chance of expanding into a talon-studded copper and lead flower of harm. From the informal tests I've seen, it seems to be a solid performer. However, with .380acp velocities, there's also a chance of partial expansion (or none at all). In such a case, you'd have the performance similar to a FMJ-FP.

So, if you go in knowing that there's a possibility some of your expensive JHPs will perform similar to FMJ-FP after failing to expand, it might ebb your inclination to stagger your magazines. Just a thought.

jim243
July 1, 2013, 02:21 AM
Golden Sabers seem to work well as hollow points and get good penetration. My concern would be that different brands of ammo will not be as consistent in where and how they work. Having never had to test that theory, it is hard to say whether you are right or wrong in what you are doing.

Good luck and stay safe.
Jim

Bovice
July 1, 2013, 02:47 AM
I would not stagger rounds, simply because it isn't going to help you any. Pick a round and use it.

Eb1
July 1, 2013, 07:16 AM
They weren't that much. I bought a couple boxes of RA380T for $25/50. I agree that the RA380T has a good chance of opening, and during winter I'll probably be carrying my steel frame .44 Special 3" 5 shot with really soft lead. For some reason, I am thinking barrel twist and velocity here, the .44 Special loves heavy bullet at slower speeds. So I shoot heavy bullets at slower speeds. Just a little over 700 fps. I am getting off base here, but thanks for the information.

I still don't know what "ill advised" means in this situation. Legality? Functionality? It seems more like personal preference.

Sergei Mosin
July 1, 2013, 07:34 AM
I don't know if it's ill-advised, but I don't see the point. Either a round can be trusted to achieve acceptable penetration of a target, or it can't. If it can't, it has no place in my gun. If it can, I don't need anything else.

45_auto
July 1, 2013, 07:43 AM
That's because it is personal preference.

Lots of people on here get their knickers in a twist if you disagree with the current advertising wisdom of the best "fire-breathing-doom-whomper-splatter-gut" pistol bullet flavor of the month that someone just spent big bucks on.

In the real world there is no way to predict which bullet type will be best for any given situation. Statistically a certain bullet type might favor the majority of the cases. However, if you go by statistics, there is a FAR better chance that you'll never need a gun anyway.

Reality is that having any type of reliable gun at all when you need it, especially if you have at least minimal training and competency in it's use, will make the type of bullet that you have loaded irrelevant. You keep shooting until the threat is ended.

royal barnes
July 1, 2013, 09:04 AM
A fellow LEO that I worked with for a number of years carried a Browning HP loaded with the first 7 hollow points and the remainder ball. I asked him why. He laughed and said if a shootout occurred and he didn't solve it with the first seven he figured everybody would be behind something and he needed penetration not expansion. It sort of made sense.;)

TarDevil
July 1, 2013, 09:04 AM
I still don't know what "ill advised" means in this situation. Legality? Functionality? It seems more like personal preference.
According to Ayoob, different type bullets inn the same mag can muddy the waters for you in post shooting investigations. I don't remember the exact wording... I've posted it on a few of the multiple threads on this subject. If you are interested, it can be found.

mljdeckard
July 1, 2013, 09:10 AM
Why is is a better idea to stagger rounds in a shotgun magazine than it is in any other magazine?

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