Possible Palma rifle.


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Mustang51
June 29, 2013, 07:57 PM
I've been interested in Palma and F class matches for a few years now, but was not sure about how much it might take to get into it.

Earlier this week I glommed this Winchester 70 .308 rifle at an on-line auction.

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/Target%20rifles/e86d38bb-ac76-4a0f-82ee-59e3bf67e5bb_zps07bcf0a2.jpg

Comes with a Hart barrel and OK Weber sights. I've obviously heard good things about Hart barrels, but does anyone know anything about OK Weber sights?

Better pics when it arrives.

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Reloadron
June 29, 2013, 09:47 PM
While the website for OKWEBER Incorporated (http://www.okweber.com/ns/sights.asp) isn't exactly beaming with knowledge they do mention their sights Will accept Centra, Gehmann and Anschutz irises, diopters and accessories. So they are uniform in that regard.

I also found this little blurb:
As a backup to the Leupold day optic, M24 rifles are issued with "iron" sights that can be mounted to the receiver and barrel. In the past, Redfield "Palma" sights were part of the M24 package, but current issue units come with Okay-Weber sights.

The merit in my experiences though limited when it comes to sights like this is the quality of the machining is what sets the good ones aside from the average less expensive.

Enjoy that rifle! Looking real sweet and best of luck with it.

Ron

Howard Roark
June 30, 2013, 12:09 AM
OK Weber, known to competitive shooters as "Otto" doesn't make sights. He reps RPA sights which are made in England. The rear sight that you have is a RPA Trakker model and the front sight looks like 22mm RPA front sight, could be 18mm though.

RPA makes a very good rear sight and is superior to any Redfield sight ever made. I have several of each.

The dovetails on the receiver and barrel is for a Unertl or similar external adjustment scope.

The rifle is late 80s - early 90s vintage Palma at it's finest. After that we started using barrel bands to mount the front sight on instead of drilling and tapping it for dovetail mount directly onto the barrel. Not to mention adjustable stocks. Palma matches are typically shot with 155 grain bullets, so the barrel should be a 1-13 twist IF it was set up to shoot international Palma. The USA doesn't have weight restrictions in our Palma matches so I as many others shoot heavier bullets- 175 gr.

Hopefully the bore and bedding is in good shape and will be a good shooter.

Mustang51
June 30, 2013, 12:17 AM
Thanks, guys. I really appreciate the detail about this rifle.

I bought it from an on-line auction and bid on it based on a pretty sparse description (basically Winchester model 70....308 caliber...Hart barrel...OK Weber sights.

I got it for just under $750. Did I do OK?

Howard Roark
June 30, 2013, 12:41 AM
Great price! The rear sight costs about $450. It should have a nice trigger.

You did well.

BullfrogKen
June 30, 2013, 12:45 AM
Basically everything Howard said.

Depending on the condition, that Trakker rear sight sells for $200 - $300 dollars on the used market, about twice that new. Hopefully the bore still has lots of life.

I'm looking at that and seeing a 70's-era vintage build, though.


Let us know more about it when it arrives!

jim in Anchorage
June 30, 2013, 12:55 AM
l would say you did good since Hart's rebarreling fee is $700. Was nice to open a thread and see a wood stock.

Mustang51
June 30, 2013, 03:11 PM
Thanks, guys.

I'll post better pics and a more complete description when it arrives.

Edarnold
June 30, 2013, 06:42 PM
The only way to find out about the gun's accuracy is to shoot it. Given the sight radius, you should be able to get accuracy off the bench close to what a scope would provide. I've got a 29"" Krieger barreled M70 that easily does sub-MOA groups with it's Parker-Hale sights. Keep in mind that if the throat is rough but the rest of the bore looks good, you can often restore accuracy just having the barrel set back an inch and rechambering ( and it won't cost $700 ! )

Mustang51
June 30, 2013, 10:44 PM
Thanks Ed

Can you estimate the barrel length on this one?

Howard Roark
June 30, 2013, 11:01 PM
28-30" MTU straight taper.

35 Whelen
June 30, 2013, 11:25 PM
Beautiful rifle, congrats. I've been wanting to build something similar to that for years! I don't know anything about the Weber sights, but if you don't like them, switch them for the old proven Redfield Olympic, International or Palma.

35W

Hummer70
July 1, 2013, 07:34 AM
Well first off shoot it. If it doesn't do well have it recrowned with a 11 deg crown. While it is in lathe have the outside of the muzzle turned to .812 or .750 depending on current size. That will allow for a barrel band front sight.

If you have access to a good borescope have a looksee at throat. If it is real bad and doesn't shoot after recrowning you can get the threads cut off and rechambered.

Mustang51
July 1, 2013, 11:21 AM
Thanks for the estimate, Howard, that is the length I was hoping for.

Whelen, thanks for the comment.

Thanks, Hummer. A commenter on another forum advised he was actually at the auction (I was bidding online) and that all the rifles were in great shape. Hoping that is true of this one also.

Mustang51
July 1, 2013, 05:49 PM
The poster on the other forum also advised that he had gotten two target rifles at the auction and that both came with logs...one had 300 rounds through it and the other 30. Apparently the prior owner, who is deceased, was a long time Camp Perry shooter and had lost his sight about 12 years ago. That sure seems sad.

Mustang51
July 2, 2013, 03:17 PM
Got some more good news today. I spoke with the gun store owner who is handling the shipments for the auction house. He advised that many of the rifles from the auction came with shooting logs and some even came with brass. Whatever came to them with the rifle will be shipped with the rifle.

He was not at his store, so he could not say whether my rifle came with brass or a log, but it might.

I found the prior owner's obituary on line...sounded like a great American.

USSR
July 2, 2013, 03:35 PM
Love those wood stocked Model 70 target rifles.:)

Don

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/Win70Marksman1.jpg

Mustang51
July 2, 2013, 03:44 PM
Love those wood stocked Model 70 target rifles.

I do too. I would really like to find a Unertl target scope and compete with it in addition to the target sights. I'm not sure it makes sense, though, either financially or competition wise.

What can you tell us about that beautiful Model 701 in the pic?

BullfrogKen
July 2, 2013, 06:20 PM
The NRA High Power Model 70 I bought used over the winter came with a log book. I wouldn't be surprised if yours did, too.

USSR
July 2, 2013, 07:28 PM
What can you tell us about that beautiful Model 701 in the pic?

Bought it years ago online. It was made in 1968 and is a .30-06. Came with a Redfield International rear sight and a Redfield Olympic front sight.

I would really like to find a Unertl target scope...

Great minds think alike.:) It now is wearing a 16X Unertl and will be my cast bullet target rifle.

Don

Mustang51
July 24, 2013, 08:56 PM
The rifle arrived at my FFL and I had a chance to look it over before it started the 10 day waiting period. The barrel is a very heavy Hart 30" barrel and is in great shape. Trigger is adjustable and excellent and the action has been bedded.

I did take the sights with me. The rear is an RPA Trakker and in great shape.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/e0d2830f-7c95-4fed-aa8a-7c00faee60a1_zps3a1fff57.jpghttp://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/b7d5bab2-c170-4792-b464-eb74c63dfba3_zps7e2d7c42.jpg

Reloadron
July 24, 2013, 09:10 PM
Glad it got to your end all safe and sound. You will love this rifle. My question is where are you that there is a 10 day wait? That is a bummer. :(

Then too, you waited this long so only 10 more days.

Ron

Mustang51
July 24, 2013, 09:13 PM
Thanks, Ron.

I'm in California :(

BullfrogKen
July 24, 2013, 09:26 PM
Those are nice sights. You did well.

Howard Roark
July 24, 2013, 09:35 PM
I paid $275 last weekend for a Trakker that's about 65% as nice as yours. Over one full revolution it tracked within .0005 on windage and within .001 on elevation with essentially the same backlash. Very good for a RPA.

BullfrogKen
July 24, 2013, 09:43 PM
Did you ever determine what year it was made?

Mustang51
July 24, 2013, 09:44 PM
Thanks, Ken and Howard.

The front sight is kind of interesting. There is a adjustable ring that moves a second globe inside forward and back to reduce or increase the size of the aperture. Never seen anything like that.

Mustang51
July 24, 2013, 09:45 PM
Did you ever determine what year it was made?

The action is a post 64 Winchester 70, but I'm not sure about when the rifle was put together. It did not come with a log.

P.B.Walsh
July 24, 2013, 10:42 PM
The front sight adjust like so to accomodate different size bulls and different ranges so that you can line your sights to be precisely in the center of a round target (no white showing).

At least that is what I have been told, seemed good enough.

BullfrogKen
July 25, 2013, 12:51 AM
Yes, you have infinitely adjustable competition sights.

Meaning you can adjust your front sight "circle" to the size of the circle of the target you're shooting on, no matter the distance or how your eye perceives the distance.

You adjust you rear sight to coordinate with the front.



Just go shoot some matches locally, and make friends with shooters there. Ask them to show you the ropes. It's nigh impossible to explain it through the written word. You won't truly understand it until you shoot it once or twice with a mentor.

Mustang51
August 28, 2013, 12:09 AM
Finally picked up my Winchester "long range rifle" from my FFL.

It looks great and I believe it has some potential...

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/British/b5859917-a2cc-48ba-a143-daaca1322d92_zpsf2b8a9f1.jpg
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/British/959ca594-b565-43c9-85da-1ca13768ac60_zps54c68d1d.jpg
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/British/7dd6355e-e601-4ca4-949c-bc1174700911_zps77488997.jpg

Trigger is GREAT! Anyone recognize what it is?

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/British/7064a2cd-1a49-4d5d-bc70-b065a63b7ab0_zpsf1743b66.jpg

USSR
August 28, 2013, 10:07 AM
Nice, Mustang51. What with the bases set up for the Unertl, I guess you know what is next on the shopping list.:)

Don

Howard Roark
August 28, 2013, 10:56 AM
Trigger is a Shilen. Nice looking rifle!

Mustang51
August 28, 2013, 11:42 AM
Thanks, guys!

I would love to find a Unertl target scope for this, USSR.

Howard, are the Shilen triggers good?

Howard Roark
August 28, 2013, 11:52 AM
Shilen is pretty much the go to for single stage triggers.

Unless you want to keep the rifle period I wouldn't get a Unertl. There is a reason that they started putting the scope adjustments on the inside of the scope instead of the outside. For what you will pay for a 30+ year old scope you can get a superior modern one.

Mustang51
August 28, 2013, 12:35 PM
Thanks Howard.

I do have Bausch and Lomb 6-24x and fixed 36x internal adjustment scopes. The rifle seems to already be drilled and tapped, so mounting a modern scope wouldn't seem to be a problem.

For F-class which scope would be better...the 6-24 or the 36X?

Howard Roark
August 28, 2013, 01:37 PM
The 6-24 will be better. You'll have to turn the power down as the mirage gets heavier as the day warms up. The 36x would be useless by mid morning. It's been years since I used a scope but usually came off the line at 14-16x in the afternoon.

I suggest that you get a one piece mount that has 20 MOA of elevation built in it. Like one of these. (http://www.egwguns.com/winchester/)

You most likely will not have enough elevation to shoot out to 600 yards with the B&L. Also, you will need to set the scope farther forward for proper eye relief when lying down behind the rifle. Mounts like the EWG will allow you to put the scope where it needs to be.

Mustang51
August 28, 2013, 07:46 PM
Thanks, Howard. I may shoot it with the sights first, then mount a scope.

P.B.Walsh
August 29, 2013, 01:36 AM
I'll take the sights if you wish to see them go freely to a iron sight loving home! :)

Mustang51
August 29, 2013, 01:45 AM
I'll keep you in mind, P.B.

P.B.Walsh
August 29, 2013, 04:37 PM
Thanks man!

MarshallDodge
August 29, 2013, 05:21 PM
What a neat rifle. Congratulations!

Hangingrock
August 29, 2013, 08:32 PM
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/40X1963Match/IMG_2933.jpg (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/lowflash/media/40X1963Match/IMG_2933.jpg.html)
I also use RPA sights. Using a dial indicator for readout comparability the adjustment repeating ability is extremely precise. The front sight is RPA "Ladder Sight" which helps to maintain my head position at long distances. The rifle is not a Winchester but rather a Remington 40X LH. Good luck with your new rifle.

Mustang51
August 29, 2013, 08:48 PM
Thanks, Marshall and Hanging.

Hanging, what kind of barrel does your Remington have? Is yours a .308?

Hangingrock
August 29, 2013, 10:41 PM
Remington OEM barrel 10" Twist. As marked 7.62 NATO. I use LC 91 Match cases, Sierra 175gr HPBT, Federal match primer, and RE15 powder. I hesitate to mention the charge weight which is acceptable in my rifle but probably not in other rifles. Good luck in your endeavor!

Mustang51
August 29, 2013, 11:12 PM
Thanks, Hanging

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