Unintended Consequences of Colorado’s New Gun Laws


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Trunk Monkey
July 1, 2013, 09:10 AM
I think CZ sells a handgun for which the standard magazine is 18 for a 9mm and 16 for a .40. Did it become impossible to legally sell them (the pistols) in Colorado overnight?

What if I have an AR/AK in hock with my 20-30 round magazines with it? Can I now not redeem the rifle or can I redeem just the rifle and I have to give up the magazines?

Did this law just, if not ban, at least make it pointless to purchase any weapon for which the standard magazine is 15 plus rounds?

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Pilot
July 1, 2013, 09:36 AM
I believe you can still get 15 round flush fit mags for the CZ-75 variants. Guess that is what they will have to be sold with in CO at least for now. :fire:

The Mec Gar mags are excellent, as are the CZ factory mags which I believe are also made my Mec Gar.

MErl
July 1, 2013, 09:55 AM
#1) Reduced capacity mags will be sold with the gun, or no mags at all... Expect to pay a premium for compliance since somewhere along the line someone had to open the box and swap things around.
#2) The mags left your possession. They are now trash. Hope you kept some mags at home or can track down some reduced ones. You cannot even sell them for scrap as that is a transfer.

As far as #3, if the reason you are getting the gun is for the mag capacity then it is pretty pointless. If you are getting it for other reasons then maybe not so much.

These effects were absolutely intentional. The number of handguns that would have been affected is why it got bumped from 10 to 15. Couldn't be passed when it affected most handguns on the market.

HankR
July 1, 2013, 11:49 AM
Couldn't be passed when it affected most handguns on the market.

Maybe they didn't have the votes this time, but I'm sure that's in the planning for the next reasonable gun law. For the children.

Midwest
July 1, 2013, 12:02 PM
Maybe they didn't have the votes this time, but I'm sure that's in the planning for the next reasonable gun law. For the children.
I wonder what they will conjure up next time...One bullet per month and one pistol per year....

coloradokevin
July 2, 2013, 02:01 AM
Trunk Monkey:

Assuming you are in the Denver area, follow these simple instructions:

1) Drive I-25 northbound
2) Drive I-76 east
3) Take a left on U.S Route 6 near Sterling
4) Take a right on U.S. Route 138 shortly thereafter
5) Now a left on CO 113, which turns into NE 19
6) Drive about ten miles until you get to Cabela's
7) Buy what you want
8) Go home by reversing the above route (per Mapquest)


The whole exercise will cost you less than a tank of gas, and about 6 total hours of your time :)


(Seriously though, I feel your pain... Just sayin')

Trunk Monkey
July 2, 2013, 07:24 AM
Another thing that was so obvious I didn’t see it until someone pointed it out to me was the 15 round limit on magazine capacity is actually a defacto 10 round limit on ARs and AKs because no one makes 15 round magazines for those weapons

Pilot
July 2, 2013, 07:52 AM
Just make sure all your mags over 15 rounds were bought prior to July 1st. Just sayin.

CoRoMo
July 2, 2013, 11:06 AM
Still a ton of +15 magazines on Colorado's ArmsList pages. Many were posted yesterday in fact. I pulled all of mine though. No reason to believe that there won't be a few stings made through these type of ads.

http://www.armslist.com/classifieds/colorado/magazines

calaverasslim
July 2, 2013, 11:13 AM
Living in Texas, I haven't been following the Colorado laws that much, but as I understand it, you can bring the mags, into the state, but you just can't buy, sell or otherwise transfer any. Nothing, as far as I know, sez you can't drive out of state and buy as many as you want.

In 1975 Mass. passed some draconian laws for taxes on tobacco. Those of us living close to New Hampshire would drive up and buy all the smokes we wanted. The Mass. state police would be waiting for us &confiscate the tobacco. They ended up in a Federal Lawasuit and lost,. Court sed they couldn't do that.

Same thing applies here, I believe.

Am I right?

MErl
July 2, 2013, 11:37 AM
The law says you have to possess them before July 1 2013.

People entering the state with mags they bought last month are fine.
People entering the state with mags bought this month are breaking the law.
People entering the state with 10 year old mags they bought today are breaking the law.

Shmackey
July 2, 2013, 12:54 PM
Just make sure all your mags over 15 rounds were bought prior to July 1st. Just sayin.

How will anyone prove that you bought them after July 1? The only way would be if they have a manufacturer's date code showing production after that date.

It's an unenforceable, pointless, absurd law that effectively declares our legally owned property to be valueless as of yesterday.

Shmackey
July 2, 2013, 12:58 PM
as I understand it, you can bring the mags, into the state, but you just can't buy, sell or otherwise transfer any. Nothing, as far as I know, sez you can't drive out of state and buy as many as you want.

...

Am I right?

Nope. You're not allowed to travel to Nebraska (or Wyoming, which I hear is even closer) and purchase new >15-round mags. You're also not allowed to purchase them online with a gift card and have them sent to your friend in another state, only to have the friend give them to you.

Those things are not allowed.

coloradokevin
July 2, 2013, 01:34 PM
Nope. You're not allowed to travel to Nebraska (or Wyoming, which I hear is even closer) and purchase new >15-round mags. You're also not allowed to purchase them online with a gift card and have them sent to your friend in another state, only to have the friend give them to you.

Those things are not allowed.

Well, you are... just so long as those transactions took place "Before July 1st, 2013" ;)

This new unconstitutional law, which raises my blood pressure every time I talk about it, is fortunately (at least) highly unenforceable. That's the point I was trying to drive at in my post.

But, I do worry about future laws that may lead to an outright ban on the possession of all such magazines. After all, some of the idiots who crafted the new law this year erroneously believed that magazines get used up after a single use like fired ammunition (one of our elected officials was quoted publicly as she said as much).

Shmackey
July 2, 2013, 01:37 PM
But, I do worry about future laws that may lead to an outright ban on the possession of all such magazines.

I wish I could say this is unlikely, but I know it's not.

That being said, the optimist in me (not that there's much of one) sees the mag ban getting scrapped even if the 4473 for in-state transfers stays.

CoRoMo
July 2, 2013, 01:42 PM
Given the nature of the local media's attempts to demonize sellers and gunowners who use ArmsList, I expect that same media to demonstrate how the new laws continue to be ignored by similar 'undercover' stings. If they do, I would then expect law enforcement to possibly follow suit and crack down on buyers/sellers on ArmsList.

Old Fuff
July 2, 2013, 06:49 PM
If I lived in Colorado I would take all my questionable arms and magazines and put them into safe storage. It would be foolish to risk a felony conviction. :banghead:

Then I would work my tail off between now and November, 2014 to insure that the legislators behind this ended up unemployed. :fire:

Which is exactly what happened to anti-gun Democrats in 1994. :evil:

MErl
July 2, 2013, 07:34 PM
f I lived in Colorado I would take all my questionable arms and magazines and put them into safe storage. It would be foolish to risk a felony conviction.
It is not a felony, class 2 misdemeanor. Never bothered looking up the punishment for that one.

But you would never be convicted unless you were stupid. Cannot beat the ride and lawyer fees but you will not be convicted unless stupid.

No way I'm going into hiding over this but I can understand why national & regional competitions were cancelled. I wouldn't want to visit CO after this either.

Then I would work my tail off between now and November, 2014 to insure that the legislators behind this ended up unemployed.
^^^ this is worth my time. Too bad I live in an area that the election is decided in the primary. No way of getting rid of the bastards if there is no primary challenger.

Old Fuff
July 2, 2013, 10:50 PM
^^^ this is worth my time. Too bad I live in an area that the election is decided in the primary. No way of getting rid of the bastards if there is no primary challenger.

Then see if they're not others that will join in to see that they're is a primary. The candidate doesn't have to be approved by the party in question. :evil:

Black Butte
July 2, 2013, 11:08 PM
What may end up happening is that people in Colorado will give money to out-of-state magazine owners. The magazine owners then give their old pre-July-stamped magazines to the Colorado residents and use the money they receive to buy new replacement magazines for themselves.

rondog
July 3, 2013, 01:29 AM
Magazines don't have dates on them, and manufacturers aren't going to start dating them. No specific firearms were singled out for banning, but any that only use >15 rd. magazines will effectively be banned by default. AR-15's don't require >15 rd. mags, they'll work fine with <15 rd. mags. And theoretically, if I visit another state and buy some more 30 rd. Pmags and bring them home, just how would anybody prove it?

What really galled me was a photo in the paper a few days ago of all these new AR-15's in a rack at a gun store, and every one of them was tagged "not for sale after July 1st"! What? Just WHY can't they sell the rifle with a 15 rd. magazine? Or WITHOUT a magazine? It was obviously a blatant attempt to feed the panic and buying frenzy by fooling people into "OMG! GOTTA BUY ONE NOW!" Jerks.

Black Butte
July 3, 2013, 01:43 AM
And theoretically, if I visit another state and buy some more 30 rd. Pmags and bring them home, just how would anybody prove it?

By the date code embedded in the magazines.

Field Tester
July 3, 2013, 03:35 AM
You can always block magazines to whatever round count needed. This is done a lot in CA to convert 30 round mags to 10. The if you ever leave the state or the law is over turned/repealed you can remove the block.

Deer_Freak
July 3, 2013, 05:02 AM
The new CO gun laws are unenforceable and pointless. In the suit to have the new CO gun laws repealed 54 of 64 sheriffs signed a petition saying the laws are unenforceable and illegal under the second amendment.

coloradokevin
July 3, 2013, 05:09 AM
What may end up happening is that people in Colorado will give money to out-of-state magazine owners. The magazine owners then give their old pre-July-stamped magazines to the Colorado residents and use the money they receive to buy new replacement magazines for themselves.

...


By the date code embedded in the magazines.



You are correct in the sense that magazine manufacturers like Magpul use a quality control date stamp on their magazines (many others do not). A lot of people don't realize that this stamp is on the PMAGS since it isn't very obvious unless you go looking for it. But, even with that said, there's no requirement that a magazine has a date stamp, and removing a date stamp is not a criminal offense... it isn't like a serial number on a firearm. Are you following my logic here so far? There's always a way around this stupid law.

You can always block magazines to whatever round count needed. This is done a lot in CA to convert 30 round mags to 10. The if you ever leave the state or the law is over turned/repealed you can remove the block.

The Colorado law requires that the magazine can't be readily converted to take more than 15 rounds. As such, I don't think the idea you mentioned will work for folks in this state.

MErl
July 3, 2013, 09:12 AM
The new CO gun laws are unenforceable and pointless. In the suit to have the new CO gun laws repealed 54 of 64 sheriffs signed a petition saying the laws are unenforceable and illegal under the second amendment.
Oh the law has a point. The one we've been discussing.

Unenforceable, sure, but can you buy a mag 10 pack from DSG? Seems like the law is working. It is exactly what was stated while passing, those who obey laws get *censored* while those that the law should target will work around it. Since it is so obvious that is the effect one must conclude that we, the law abiding folks, are the actual target of this law.

I have little faith in the courts reversing this as mag bans exist elsewhere after challenges. We shall see if this can be reversed at the ballot box but I'm not too hopeful that such a reversal would pass even if the majority party is changed.

Trisha
July 3, 2013, 06:09 PM
Colorado could well make history if both prominent D's under recall are voted out with such a majority that not even the dead vote could be statistically significant.

Then in the next two elections, sponsor and elect individual candidates solely on merit, not PARTY.

Never again. Never forget one word.

Long live New Media.

henschman
July 4, 2013, 01:17 AM
The main consequence will be massive disobedience of the law by Coloradoans. I know from first hand experience that this is already occurring. I consider it a very positive trend.

PabloJ
July 4, 2013, 04:08 AM
I think CZ sells a handgun for which the standard magazine is 18 for a 9mm and 16 for a .40. Did it become impossible to legally sell them (the pistols) in Colorado overnight?

What if I have an AR/AK in hock with my 20-30 round magazines with it? Can I now not redeem the rifle or can I redeem just the rifle and I have to give up the magazines?

Did this law just, if not ban, at least make it pointless to purchase any weapon for which the standard magazine is 15 plus rounds?
Regardless where you live when you buy high capacity stuff it should always be under assumption that you will be permanently stuck with them.

Old Fuff
July 4, 2013, 10:37 AM
The main consequence will be massive disobedience of the law by Coloradoans. I know from first hand experience that this is already occurring. I consider it a very positive trend.

Unquestionably true in some circles. I am reminded of the 55 MPH speed limited that the national government forced onto most states to save gasoline.

Didn't work did it? :evil:

Colorado's state government can (and probably will) try to enforce the law by running sting operations and various kinds of entrapment. This will do nothing more then give the news media something to jabber about, and help insure that rural districts will for the most part, take it out on Democrat candidates in the next election and maybe onward. :uhoh:

Black Butte
July 4, 2013, 07:00 PM
Colorado's state government can (and probably will) try to enforce the law by running sting operations and various kinds of entrapment.

You can always count on Bloomberg to run out-of-state sting operations!

Trunk Monkey
July 5, 2013, 08:20 AM
I mentioned this earlier but no one seems to have picked up on it.

The day the law went into effect someone pointed out to me that while the law sets the limit at 15 round magazines for some weapons in practice that actually means a ten round magazine because 15 rounders don't exist and it doesn't look like anyone is rushing to make them

MErl
July 5, 2013, 08:52 AM
That's an intended consequence and what was actually desired. The only reason it was bumped to 15 is due to handguns, most of which are standard at 15 or less.

Your AR/AK being limited to 10 because nobody makes a 15, working as intended. It was pointed out to our lawmakers that nobody makes 15 round AR mags, another point that was ignored. If there is enough market someone will make 15 round blocked mags. Take a 20 rounder and fill the bottom 1/4 with epoxy, done. I do not see people willing to pay for blocked mags when pre-July_1_2013 will be available for quite some time. Even if illegal to obtain, the response is still "Prove I didn't have it."

Field Tester
July 6, 2013, 01:18 AM
You are correct in the sense that magazine manufacturers like Magpul use a quality control date stamp on their magazines (many others do not). A lot of people don't realize that this stamp is on the PMAGS since it isn't very obvious unless you go looking for it. But, even with that said, there's no requirement that a magazine has a date stamp, and removing a date stamp is not a criminal offense... it isn't like a serial number on a firearm. Are you following my logic here so far? There's always a way around this stupid law.



The Colorado law requires that the magazine can't be readily converted to take more than 15 rounds. As such, I don't think the idea you mentioned will work for folks in this state.
I've seen it with a metal 30 rounder. A block is bead welded so it is technically perminant but can be removed if need be to nake it a 30 rounder again.

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