Magazine issues


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TarDevil
July 1, 2013, 12:58 PM
Recently picked up a SR9 magazine at a pawn shop. Price was cheap enough to gamble.

Got home and loaded it with Federal FMJs to check it out. Got a lot of "clicks."

Visually, there's nothing abnormal. Any suggestions to make it serviceable, or best just to trash it?

Thanks for any input.

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Walt Sherrill
July 1, 2013, 01:05 PM
Describe what you're experiencing. A "lot of clicks" doesn't mean much without more detail.

Does the magazine FEED rounds (i.e., load the next round) when it's loaded, put in the gun, and the slide is worked?

What are those clicks? Magazines don't generally make a lot of noise.

If it's not feeding the round, and it is truly a magazine issue, the solution may be as simple as a new spring...

MedWheeler
July 1, 2013, 01:11 PM
^^ Or checking to see if someone didn't put the spring in backwards..

TarDevil
July 1, 2013, 01:16 PM
I'm sorry...should've provided more specifics.

Seems to feed rounds OK (at least nothing visible to indicate otherwise). LCI pops up and slide goes into battery. The "click" is usually the first trigger pull. A rap and rack usually produces a boom next try. Occasionally I'll get another "click" when pulling the trigger sometime before the magazine empties.

Spring tension, seems comparable to my other mags, but I haven't yet checked to see if it's installed backwards. However, since gun goes into battery, not sure if that's the problem.

Then again, my experience level pales to most of you.

Walt Sherrill
July 1, 2013, 01:29 PM
If its feeding the round and the slide is going into battery, it really doesn't sound like a magazine issue. Once the round gets THAT far along, the problems you describe are usually caused by something else. It IS strange that it's happening ONLY with one magazine.

Or is it? Have you tried your other mag(s) since the problem started? It may be happening, now, with your other mag (or mags), too. If so, it could be something as simple as slightly-out-spec or bad ammo, hard primers, crap in the striker mechanism (breechface, perhaps), or a slide that ISN'T quite closed.

Are there any marks on the primer that doesn't ignite, after you hear the "click"?

danez71
July 1, 2013, 02:03 PM
I'm sorry...should've provided more specifics.

Seems to feed rounds OK (at least nothing visible to indicate otherwise). LCI pops up and slide goes into battery. The "click" is usually the first trigger pull. A rap and rack usually produces a boom next try. Occasionally I'll get another "click" when pulling the trigger sometime before the magazine empties.

Spring tension, seems comparable to my other mags, but I haven't yet checked to see if it's installed backwards. However, since gun goes into battery, not sure if that's the problem.

Then again, my experience level pales to most of you.


So if Im reading it right....

1) You load the mag, insert into gun, rack the slide and it feed the round into the chamber.

2) When the trigger is pulled, you get the click but it doesn't fire.

3) You then 'tap' and rack the slide again... in which the 1st round ejects and a new round is fed into the chamber and when you pull the trigger it fires.


If what I described is accurate AND its only with that 1 mag than my guess would be that the mag isn't engaging the mag safety and not allowing it to fire. Then when you tap and rack, its just enough to engage the mag safety and fires as it should.

I'm not familiar with that gun so I'm not sure the nitty gritty details...

Visually compare it to the other working mags and make sure they are identical.

TarDevil
July 1, 2013, 03:26 PM
danez71, that was my thought, that something in the mag was not working properly with the mag disconnect safety. That's why I inspected the mags closely to see if there were any discernible differences... nothing to the naked eye.

Walt, the gun is perfect with my other magazines.

Walt Sherrill
July 1, 2013, 03:38 PM
Hmmm. I have an SR9 and totally forgot about the Mag Safety mechanism.

If it was the mag safety causing the problem -- and that IS a good thing to think about - I don't understand why the problem goes away after the slide is racked. (I haven't really paid attention to the mag safety mechanism of the SR9, so that question could probably be easily answered by someone who really understands how it works.) With some other guns, you don't always year a CLICK, if the mag safety is engaged, but that's NOT the case with the SR9 -- it sounds the same when the trigger is pulled, whether the mag is in or out of the gun.

When the round doesn't go bang, is there a mark on the primer of the unfired round? That would tell you whether the striker is moving, and might point to a problem with the mag safety (or NOT.)

I wonder if just reseating the mag or rapping it soundly (and not racking the slide) would give the same result as rapping and racking?

I know you said the gun is perfect with the other mags -- but did you try them after you started having problems with the "new" mag? (You probably did, but it seems reasonable to ask.)

If it turns out, somehow, to be a MAG issue, you can probably get Ruger to replace a defective mag. It shouldn't matter how or when bought it, if the springs still seem good, etc.

TarDevil
July 1, 2013, 03:55 PM
Did you try your other mags after you started having problems with the "new" one? (In other words, is the problem isolated to only THAT mag?) Just because they all worked right BEFORE you started having problem doesn't mean they are still working right, now, if you haven't tried them again. And, just as important, when the round doesn't go bang, is there a mark on the primer?

Yeah, I really worried that the bad mag may have caused some damage, so I've run numerous rounds through all my other mags to ensure reliability... and the gun continues to be perfect with them. And, dang it, I can't remember if there was a mark on the primer or not. That should've been the first thing I looked at. I may try a few more rounds with the questionable mag to see.

I don't have much invested in the magazine, but it would be nice to make it work if possible.

allaroundhunter
July 1, 2013, 04:07 PM
TarDevil, are you against removing the mag disconnect?

TarDevil
July 1, 2013, 04:12 PM
TarDevil, are you against removing the mag disconnect?
I keep wrestling with that in my mind. I mentioned to the LGS owner when I bought it I'd probably remove it, and he's in the camp that believes legalities may be compromised with a modified gun in the event of a shooting.

There are times when I'd like to take it out, but other times it's nice to know there's another layer between me and an AD when clearing the gun.

I dunno. I have to decide what to cook all the time! I wish you guys would make that decision! :D

allaroundhunter
July 1, 2013, 04:13 PM
Tonight cook yourself a nice ribeye medium-rare and remove that mag disconnect ;)

TarDevil
July 1, 2013, 04:37 PM
Tonight cook yourself a nice ribeye medium-rare and remove that mag disconnect ;)
Can I do blackened fish and still remove it?

Walt Sherrill
July 1, 2013, 04:44 PM
Don't forget -- It hasn't been established that the mag disconnect has anything to do with the problem. It seems reasonable to assume that it might, but it could be frustrating to go to the trouble of removing it and still have a gun that doesn't function with the mag in question.

TarDevil
July 1, 2013, 04:56 PM
Don't forget -- It hasn't been established that the mag disconnect has anything to do with the problem. It seems reasonable to assume that it might, but it could be frustrating to go to the trouble of removing it and still have a gun that doesn't function with the mag in question.
My thoughts. Gonna wait a bit, hopefully someone may chime in with similar experience. I'd take pictures, but the magazines look exactly alike.

Bovice
July 1, 2013, 06:31 PM
Can I do blackened fish and still remove it?
Haha! This diet business is the pits, isn't it?

Are you sure it's not having problems with your other mags? If the mags all look the same, you might mix them up and not realize. Marking them might help if this could be the case. I would be pursuing the removal of the magazine disconnect. The legal argument is invalid, more handguns are without magazine disconnects than ones that have them.

Walt Sherrill
July 1, 2013, 07:53 PM
I would be pursuing the removal of the magazine disconnect. The legal argument is invalid, more handguns are without magazine disconnects than ones that have them.

While I agree that if you've properly used lethal force, a prosecutor isn't likely to come after you if you've used a gun with a mag safety (or other "safety" device) removed, you can't PREDICT what the other party's attorney might try to do in a CIVIL SUIT.

There was a lengthy discussion on this topic recently, either here or on THE FIRING LINE, and one of the moderators -- an attorney with some knowledge of the topic, made the point that civil suits are different: the laws are different, the standards of proof are different, and things aren't nearly so clear cut when a gun is used. Unless your state's laws directly addresses the issue and shield you when lethal force is properly used, you can still end up in court. Judges may not understand or appreciate the fact that many guns don't have mag safeties, and most jurors won't care... particularly if the other attorney tries presents you as some kind of gun nut or cowboy.

More importantly, even if the other party loses their case against you, it will likely still cost you serious time and money. Attempts to recover some of your costs from the other party may be very difficult -- even if you get a judgment against them.

Since that discussion I've decided that I'll never use any of my "modified" guns (like a BHP with the mag safety removed) anywhere but the range, and I'll use only totally stock guns for carry. (For home defense, I'll probably grab whatever's at hand -- but that'll probably be a Glock 38...)

TarDevil
July 1, 2013, 08:44 PM
Haha! This diet business is the pits, isn't it?

Are you sure it's not having problems with your other mags? If the mags all look the same, you might mix them up and not realize. Marking them might help if this could be the case. I would be pursuing the removal of the magazine disconnect. The legal argument is invalid, more handguns are without magazine disconnects than ones that have them.
Fortunately for me, I prefer fish to cow anyway!! :)
RE the mags... I've been very careful not to mix them up, so I'm certain the problems are isolated to the one mag I bought used.

While I agree that if you've properly used lethal force, a prosecutor isn't likely to come after you if you've used a gun with a mag safety (or other "safety" device) removed, you can't PREDICT what the other party's attorney might try to do in a CIVIL SUIT.

There was a lengthy discussion on this topic recently, either here or on THE FIRING LINE, and one of the moderators -- an attorney with some knowledge of the topic, made the point that civil suits are different: the laws are different, the standards of proof are different, and things aren't nearly so clear cut when a gun is used. Unless your state's laws directly addresses the issue and shield you when lethal force is properly used, you can still end up in court. Judges may not understand or appreciate the fact that many guns don't have mag safeties, and most jurors won't care... particularly if the other attorney tries presents you as some kind of gun nut or cowboy.

More importantly, even if the other party loses their case against you, it will likely still cost you serious time and money. Attempts to recover some of your costs from the other party may be very difficult -- even if you get a judgment against them.

Since that discussion I've decided that I'll never use any of my "modified" guns (like a BHP with the mag safety removed) anywhere but the range, and I'll use only totally stock guns for carry. (For home defense, I'll probably grab whatever's at hand -- but that'll probably be a Glock 38...)

Walt, as of December 1, 2011 per G.S. 14-51.3;
A person who uses force as permitted by this section is justified in using such force and is immune from civil or criminal liability for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer or bail bondsman who was lawfully acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer or bail bondsman identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer or bail bondsman in the lawful performance of his or her official duties.

Of course I'm sure any lawyer can find a hole to wiggle through and tie you up in court. Still... I'm a little reluctant to modify the gun.

Walt Sherrill
July 1, 2013, 10:40 PM
Walt, as of December 1, 2011 per G.S. 14-51.3

A person who uses force as permitted by this section is justified in using such force and is immune from civil or criminal liability for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer or bail bondsman who was lawfully acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer or bail bondsman identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer or bail bondsman in the lawful performance of his or her official duties.
Of course I'm sure any lawyer can find a hole to wiggle through and tie you up in court. Still... I'm a little reluctant to modify the gun.

That's a North Carolina General Statute and not everyone participating here lives in NC or in a state with a law like that -- which is why I wrote, "Unless your state's laws directly addresses the issue and shield you when lethal force is properly used, you can still end up in court."

To further complicate matters, a part not included in your excerpt above states that 14-51.3 applies "under the circumstances permitted pursuant to G.S. 14‑51.2" -- which means that even in NC you are shielded ONLY in your HOME, at your place of WORK (if it's legal to carry there), or in your CAR . Anywhere else you may still be facing big problems...

That's why I'm still wary, too.

danez71
July 1, 2013, 11:31 PM
I wonder if just reseating the mag or rapping it soundly (and not racking the slide) would give the same result as rapping and racking?


I wonder that too... good question.

How is the mag safety engaged / disengaged?

If its a mag issue, it could be out of spec by 1mm or less and cause a problem due to stacked up tolerances. You might not be able to see the difference.

For example, fit the thickness of the mag is slightly thinner than it should be and the side of the mag body is what engages/disengages the mag safety... that could the issue.

TarDevil
July 1, 2013, 11:58 PM
The slide has to be worked to reset the trigger after the misfire.

When time permits, I'll take the magazine to my LGS and have them look at it. I've examined it as best my old eyes can and see nothing obvious.

Walt Sherrill
July 2, 2013, 08:21 AM
The slide has to be worked to reset the trigger after the misfire.

Duh. Good point.

I feel even more dumb when I remember I had just tried the trigger on my SR9 earlier, with magazine in and out -- and had to work the slide to reset the trigger. (The point was to determine whether the mag was properly seated... But you don't want to have to SLAM the base of the mag every time you insert it...)

All things considered, if it were my weapon and mags, I think I'd call Ruger and tell them about the problem, and see if they'll replace what seems to be a defective magazine. You bought it, and it is a Ruger mag... (Since they sometimes send an extra mag back with some guns being serviced under warranty, they might get all generous.)

TarDevil
July 2, 2013, 08:56 AM
Duh. Good point.

I feel even more dumb when I remember I had just tried the trigger on my SR9 earlier, with magazine in and out -- and had to work the slide to reset the trigger. (The point was to determine whether the mag was properly seated... But you don't want to have to SLAM the base of the mag every time you insert it...)

All things considered, if it were my weapon and mags, I think I'd call Ruger and tell them about the problem, and see if they'll replace what seems to be a defective magazine. You bought it, and it is a Ruger mag... (Since they sometimes send an extra mag back with some guns being serviced under warranty, they might get all generous.)
Thanks, Walt. Good plan!

ny32182
July 2, 2013, 09:09 AM
I'm not familiar with the SR9 or the mag disconnect therein, but if the magazine is putting a round in the chamber, the gun is really fully in battery, and your issues truly only occur with that one magazine, I can't imagine what else BESIDES the mag disconnect could really be the root of the problem.

Personally I'm not a subscriber to the "modified gun will send you directly to jail" argument, so I would remove it regardless anyway, but it sounds like you have to learn exactly how that thing works and see if it is being equally engaged by all the magazines.

Most modern pistol mag bodies I've encountered are pretty durable. Maybe there was a reason that one was for sale, but the first thing I'd do with any questionable magazine would be to take it apart, clean it out, and replace the spring and follower.... Every pistol magazine issue I've ever personally experienced could be solved with a cleaning and/or new spring, and some of mine have seen some significant abuse.

There should not be any lube inside the magazine; it should be dry, and free of loose dirt/grit, especially right up under the feed lips.

Walt Sherrill
July 2, 2013, 10:19 AM
Personally I'm not a subscriber to the "modified gun will send you directly to jail" argument, so I would remove it regardless anyway...

As noted in my reply, above, "going to jail" isn't the concern. I don't think it'll send you to jail, either.

Dealing with a civil suit is the concern -- and your opponent's lawyer can make your life both miserable and more costly, even if you eventually WIN the case. Does that happen a lot? I have no idea, but like the use of Lethal Force, it only has to happen once for your life to change dramatically.

I've got the mag safety removed on my BHP, and have made some mods on other guns, as well. I'll just not use those weapons where there is potential for problems. If someone breaks into my house, I won't really worry about which weapon I use, but when I carry (which isn't something I do every day), I'm now more sensitive to the issues associated with weapon selection.

You should, of course, do what makes you most comfortable.

.

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