Took some "extremely left wing" friends to the gunrange today. . .


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Cryogaijin
July 4, 2013, 02:02 AM
We had a blast (thanks to tannerite). Spent over 5 hours on the range.

Andy and Lucy are acquaintances of mine from Ireland, and are in the US on a work visa starting next week. They're spending this week visiting various people they've "met" online.

Naturally I had to take them to the range.

Taught them the four rules, and the basics. Gave them unlimited use of my .17hmr and .22lr scoped rifles. After 2 hours of rimfire rifles we moved to a rimfire handgun. After an hour or so of that, I brought out my 30-06 hunting rifle. After a couple offhand shots, Lucy was given one single round to attempt to hit a 2lb cannster of Tannerite at 100 yards. This is her first shot ever from a seated position. Note how she's bracing her elbow on her knee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBW2j3vk77w

Her first four shots with my .17 hmr. (yes, I'm snarky and I told her she missed. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHF1NIxmiW4

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RiverPerson
July 4, 2013, 02:07 AM
Always nice to see people having a good time trying something new.

ljnowell
July 4, 2013, 04:45 AM
Do you think you changed their opinion any?

Dean1818
July 4, 2013, 06:25 AM
Great job!


As gun owners our future problems will be greatly lessened if we just took new people to the range.


Shooting IS fun........ But if WE dont take the VOTING, Non shooter to the range...... Who will?

Many people who have never been around shooting, MAY side with the anti's

I have taken many non shooters to the range over the past 3-4 years, and a high percentage now have a pistol or rifle of their own, and 4 have their CHL. Its not that hard.

If we all took just one non shooter to the range per quarter, in 3 years the politicians wouldnt dare to ever bring it up again

Win hearts and minds one at a time.... It will save our collective bacon later

Tommygunn
July 4, 2013, 10:49 AM
Awww, I wanted to see the EXPLOSION!!!!!!!
But yes it's swell to take friends from the Shamrock Isle out shootin'. That ain't no blarney there!

hso
July 4, 2013, 11:24 AM
It is in our own interest to introduce as many people as possible to safe and fun shooting.

Good job!

loose noose
July 4, 2013, 11:34 AM
I could safely say that 90% of the shooters I train have never fired any kind of firearm in their lives. By the time they're done with the class, they are anxious to buy a firearm of there own and continue shooting. Most also join the NRA.:D

Pilot
July 4, 2013, 11:45 AM
Years ago, right around the passage of the AWB in 1994, I took a bunch of friends who were anti gun to the range. I brought a few Russian SKS's, an AR-15,some Ruger MK II's, and a few 9MM pistols. Some had NEVER shot nor even held a firearm before in their lives. These were all American men in their early to mid 30's.

Bottom line is they had a ball! Everyone shot, and everyone had safe, good old range fun. However, when we got home I asked them if it had changed their anti gun stance. Most replied that while I was a responsible gun owner, some aren't so nobody should be able to have guns. I was very disappointed.

AlexanderA
July 4, 2013, 11:54 AM
"Left wing" in Ireland is not the same as "left wing" in the U.S. In fact the whole political spectrum in Europe is different from that in the U.S. On top of that, being anti-gun is not necessarily synonymous with being left wing -- and that's true even in the U.S. People on the extreme left tend to be supporters of gun rights (for their own reasons, of course). Antigunners come from what could be called the bourgeois, moderate left. Pro-gunners come from the libertarian strain, whether that's right-wing libertarianism or left-wing libertarianism.

Sam Cade
July 4, 2013, 12:09 PM
Antigunners come from what could be called the bourgeois, moderate left. Pro-gunners come from the libertarian strain, whether that's right-wing libertarianism or left-wing libertarianism.

If I had a daughter, I'd allow you to date her. :D


Also:



Good JOB OP!

Solo
July 4, 2013, 01:40 PM
Since we know we aren't going to change what little there is of a "real Lefty's" mind, tell me exactly why we'd teach them to handle the firearms they intend to disarm citizens of again one way or the other? As for political positions, the Democrat PARTY has an anti-gun plank in its agenda for cryin' out loud!
They're Irish. They might need to start shooting at the English again.

Just like we used to.

Sam Cade
July 4, 2013, 01:56 PM
They're Irish. They might need to start shooting at the English again.

Why?

The Irish aren't ruled by the English and the Republic of Ireland isn't part of Great Britain.

Creature
July 4, 2013, 02:20 PM
Do you think you changed their opinion any?

I'd like to know too.

Fremmer
July 4, 2013, 02:43 PM
Ya never know when the English army will invade.

Good job OP!

Cryogaijin
July 4, 2013, 04:27 PM
Lucy had the range down as a necissary evil for visiting the US: Gotta shoot guns at some point.

By the end of the day, after repeating her single shot bullseyes several times, she is encouraged to look into the sport herself. And she REALLY loves my hunting rifle.

Andy also had fun, and was wearing a silly stupid grin most of the evening, but his favorite was my .17hmr (Which is a freaking tack driver. From 5 feet to about 75 yards I'd say my .17 is more accurate than my hunting rifle. From 75 to 350 yards my hunting rifle might as well be a laser I got REALLY lucky)

Both are interested in getting involved more, and will be encouraging their other 'Murcan friends to do so as well.

bayesian
July 4, 2013, 04:49 PM
I often take fairly extremely left wing friends to the range. We get along nicely because I am as well.

:-)

Ignition Override
July 4, 2013, 09:05 PM
Ireland fought a small war with the British from approx. 1918-21, and only then became independent. My wife and I returned from Ireland about two months ago.

How about lots of fairly conservative people who mostly watched, or still only watch CNN, ABC etc? If those are their only sources about gun issues, and have no family/friends who are involved with shooting, their opinions might be somewhat similar to the "other flavor" of anti. Many of us had simply been very indifferent.

Years ago, CNN/NBC were my only sources other than the daily city rag, therefore I was skeptical about the NRA, due to deceptive reporting about the 'cop-killer' bullet, "assault rifle" issue etc. About seven years ago a coworker pointed out a couple of things, and the sun began to shine into very dark places.

Torian
July 4, 2013, 09:30 PM
You are a stronger man than I. I only have a couple liberal friends I can stand being around...and none of them are interested in shooting :)

Ignition Override
July 5, 2013, 12:43 AM
More than anything else it seems to be the near-total lack of exposure, when living in larger cities, in contrast to those living in small towns or rural areas.

Cryogaijin
July 5, 2013, 05:52 PM
Pretty much.

Whenever I start a job at a new location I always offer everyone working there to go out to the range for some marksmanship practice and gun safety. Had a couple takers, but IMO far too few.

I work in hotels, btw, and I've had more guests take me up on the offer than coworkers.

Deltaboy
July 5, 2013, 06:25 PM
It is always good to try.

JSH1
July 5, 2013, 10:29 PM
More than anything else it seems to be the near-total lack of exposure, when living in larger cities, in contrast to those living in small towns or rural areas.

Bingo! People who grew up in a city and have never fired a gun don't understand the pleasure that can come from shooting with friends or hunting with family. They don't understand the use of a firearm as a tool. Likewise, people that have grown up in a rural area don't understand the level of gun violence in major metro areas and can't understand why someone would like to restrict access to firearms. Sometime those worlds can collide and common ground in found.

Archaic
July 5, 2013, 10:42 PM
I would hardly call the Irish left wing. Anti-gun, probably, left wing - not the impression I got when I was there. Ireland is probably the most conservative English speaking country in the world.

yzguy87
July 5, 2013, 11:43 PM
OP I think that's awesome. We all should be trying to get people exposed to our sport. Also we should correct misconceptions in a tactfully way.

thump_rrr
July 5, 2013, 11:52 PM
By painting people with a Liberal or Conservative brush we are doing our sport more harm than good.
Not everyone has gun rights as their number one priority and may have other reasons for their left leaning views.

This should in no way prevent them from enjoying and/or supporting the shooting sports.
The more people we bring into the fold the better our sport will be because of it.

I bring as many Liberal friends to the range as I do Conservative friends.

Cryogaijin
July 5, 2013, 11:58 PM
I bring as many Liberal friends to the range as I do Conservative friends. Most of my "conservative" friends have already been to the range. Happy to head out with them at pretty much any time, but that's a bit different from giving people a soft introduction to the sport. :)

Cryogaijin
July 6, 2013, 11:03 AM
You are not going to change an idealogues mind. That has not been my experience.

Btw, I am a Liberal, and I'm VERY liberal about my guns.

I'm also liberal about my ammo. I make certain to bring TRULY liberal quantities whenever I go shooting.

arizona_cards_11
July 6, 2013, 04:48 PM
I only fraternize with right-libertarians and paleoconservatives......but if you can stand authoritarians and leftists, I say go for it.

Meta
July 6, 2013, 05:31 PM
Not to hijack this thread, but it's hard for me to understand how a leftist personal philosophy of right to bear arms can be compatible with the expectation that the very vehicle that the left worships and empowers, that is government, will not turn and devour their individual rights and liberties when the individual liberty is at odds with the natural evolution of government; tyranny.

Officers'Wife
July 6, 2013, 05:58 PM
FWIW, a few years ago I had my husband's Illinois Democrat parents visit during hunting season. They were horrified that I was corrupting their son until FiL sat down to a dinner of molasses cured venison ham.

Last hunting season FiL managed to harvest a very nice buck with a 45 caliber "in line" muzzle loader which was the first gun he had ever bought. A fact my Dad took endless amusement from. His words - sometimes the path to winning hearts and minds is through the stomach.

Nanook
July 7, 2013, 09:27 AM
I wonder what ol' Rob would say looking into the average gun safe of a member here?

He'd probably pass out, if he's upset at photographs. LOL

shockwave
July 7, 2013, 11:10 AM
In the UK, hunting and sport shooting are popular activities. The Irish, especially, have a long and comfortable history with firearms. To characterize them as "lefties" or such is complete ignorant nonsense.

In the video, you see how she is relaxed and confident, taking her time and hitting her target. Compare with any number of YouTube videos showing American women shaking, wobbling, and hitting themselves in the face with the recoil.

Most importantly, there is nothing in the Democratic or liberal position in politics that militates toward an anti-gun policy. If you believe that, then you have been sold a bill of false goods. Disabuse yourself of the notion post-haste.

I have worked with and known far too many ex-military, hard-line conservatives (one even had a picture of himself hugging Newt Gingrich), who don't want any citizen to have access to firearms.

It is NOT a liberal vs conservative issue. If you think that, you are wrong. Plenty of hard-core republicans are violently opposed to personal gun ownership. That's just a fact. They don't trust anybody and they sure as hell don't trust you.

By the same token, many liberal Democrats love the 2nd Amendment and own firearms and are responsible owners who advocate for ownership and introduce others to the sport. It's not a political thing. It's a personal thing. And we all make our own choices.

Dean1818
July 7, 2013, 11:35 AM
I believe that there are three types of people in regards to guns

1) Staunch anti gun folks - Wouldnt go to a range if you paid them

- Very few people come out of this group, and bring their kids up to hate/fear guns. They will quote any anti gun propoganda they can find.

In my mind..... not worth the hassle


2) Middle of the road folks......... Can be swayed either way....... they may have little or no experience with guns. Maybe indiferent, may vote for guns if thier conservative news media says they should, may vote against guns if their liberal news station says they should.

- This may be 30-60% of the population


3) Staunch gun folks - Beleive strongly in 2A


IMHO, the 2nd group will either hurt us or help us in the long run. Our challenge in the long run is to get more people interested in the activity, whether that be hunting, protection, or just shooting for enjoyment.

We need to take seriously our personal role in increasing the number of new (and safe) shooters.

We can make a HUGE difference

If we EACH just took 1-2 people in group 2 to the range per quarter, we would not have a problem in the long run. our future of shooting would be secure.


The media/entertainment/education industry is heavily wieghted toward making the populace fear/hate any weapons........... they are heavily funded.

Do you think your kids arent hearing an anti-gun message at school?

They are serious about what they are doing


Maybe WE should be too.........................

DeepSouth
July 7, 2013, 11:45 AM
You know, after a few moments of thought I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't shoot at least a little. I knew a few young ladies back years ago who had never shot, of course I changed that for them. But now days I don't meet many net lady's, the wife would frown upon that. :uhoh:

Sheepdog1968
July 7, 2013, 02:20 PM
Lucy had the range down as a necissary evil for visiting the US: Gotta shoot guns at some point.

By the end of the day, after repeating her single shot bullseyes several times, she is encouraged to look into the sport herself. And she REALLY loves my hunting rifle.

Andy also had fun, and was wearing a silly stupid grin most of the evening, but his favorite was my .17hmr (Which is a freaking tack driver. From 5 feet to about 75 yards I'd say my .17 is more accurate than my hunting rifle. From 75 to 350 yards my hunting rifle might as well be a laser I got REALLY lucky)

Both are interested in getting involved more, and will be encouraging their other 'Murcan friends to do so as well.
Good for your she will remember how much fun she had over the years. She will relay this to other friends back in Ireland. It will do some good.

K0ZZZ
July 7, 2013, 10:45 PM
I've taken and converted a few to pro-gun in my younger days, even if they stayed lib on other issues.

The last was a potential work outing. Our boss and 3 of us shoot, 3 others didn't. We invited everyone, including holding a safety class. They declined, so we never went. Kind of a bummer...

Jaymo
July 8, 2013, 08:38 PM
Wars are not won by winning hearts and minds.
Wars are won by killing people and breaking things.
It isn't pleasant, but it's reality.
We will never win this war by pandering to the left.
The last thing you want is for your enemy to have a fair chance at beating you.

readyeddy
July 8, 2013, 09:15 PM
Lucy's pretty good getting hits off hand and from sitting. Most guys at my range spend all day shooting off the bench.

Jaymo
July 8, 2013, 09:43 PM
Lucy looks like she's having way too much fun, to be an antigunner.

Cryogaijin
July 8, 2013, 10:14 PM
She stopped being hesitant after she popped her first tannerite target. :)

Mitlov
July 8, 2013, 11:09 PM
Wars are not won by winning hearts and minds.
Wars are won by killing people and breaking things.
It isn't pleasant, but it's reality.
We will never win this war by pandering to the left.
The last thing you want is for your enemy to have a fair chance at beating you.

We have voting, a Congress, lobbies, and free speech so that we can resolve domestic policy disputes WITHOUT killing people and breaking things. I'm down with "whatever means necessary" if we start looking at a Third Reich style dictatorship, but it just ain't right to trot out that sort of rhetoric whenever a legislature passes a law you don't agree with.

There is no "war." There's numerous policy disagreements between liberals and conservatives in this country but there is NOTHING that comes close to justifying "killing people and breaking things."

Solo
July 9, 2013, 03:44 AM
Wars are not won by winning hearts and minds.
Wars are won by killing people and breaking things.
It isn't pleasant, but it's reality.
We will never win this war by pandering to the left.
The last thing you want is for your enemy to have a fair chance at beating you.
You are one of the top ten reasons why I own guns.

Dean1818
July 9, 2013, 07:28 AM
Wars are not won by winning hearts and minds.
Wars are won by killing people and breaking things.
It isn't pleasant, but it's reality.
We will never win this war by pandering to the left.
The last thing you want is for your enemy to have a fair chance at beating you.
We arent at war......

Anti gunners are not my enemy.


All I am saying, is win over 2-3 per year.

There are so many people that are indifferent when it comes to guns..... If they
See a national tragedy, and dont shoot....... They MAY start voting for anti gun polticians

If you are an avid shooter, or just enjoy the sport..... You will be much less inclined to vote for the anti gunner.

Its easy, this is a fun sport. Its like introducing someone to a new flavor of
Ice cream....... Its all good when its safe....

And...... More shooters , are more voters

HexHead
July 9, 2013, 07:34 AM
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would want "extremely left wing" friends in the first place?

Al Thompson
July 9, 2013, 08:07 AM
Hex, I'm pretty left wing on some issues. :)

As a case in point, my very anti-gun neighbors daughter (who is not an anti) approached me about going to the range and learning to shoot.

Win. :)

Archaic
July 9, 2013, 08:51 AM
The militant all or nothing stance from the right edge is only succeeding in driving the center farther away. According to what I've read on this thread, if I want to own a gun I'm not allowed to support women's rights, school lunches, or social security.

Keep making the tent smaller and pretty soon somebody will fold it up while we're still in it.

baz
July 9, 2013, 10:01 AM
According to what I've read on this thread, if I want to own a gun I'm not allowed to support women's rights, school lunches, or social security.I went back through the thread, and saw no mention of "women's rights, school lunches, or social security." So who's painting with a big brush here? I'm expecting this thread to get closed now. What began as a discussion about introducing some "antis" to shooting has turned into a left/right, liberal/conservative free for all. That is not THR.

Sam1911
July 9, 2013, 10:08 AM
What began as a discussion about introducing some "antis" to shooting has turned into a left/right, liberal/conservative free for all. That is not THR.

Indeed it isn't, and some mighty distressing comments have been removed.

At THR we do NOT care about nor debate any issues outside of GUNS, SHOOTING, and RKBA.

Taking folks who are currently anti-gun, or who would 'naturally' lean toward that world-view, shooting is EXACTLY how we're winning the fight, one convert at a time!

Jrob24
July 9, 2013, 05:02 PM
Although I was never anti gun, I didn't become pro gun overnight. There was a time when I thought that guns were fun but I could have been convinced to join the more gun control side. It was only after I had looked deeper into the issue that guns became more than just an activity. So when you take a non-shooter to the range, don't expect them to immediately join the 2a crowd. If they ask questions typical of non shooters, be polite and have answers ready for them. We are planting a new seed that will take time to grow.

Taking non-shooters to the range should be done everywhere. Even in the states that have lots of gun owners in order to keep them that way.

If you get into a gun politics discussion, after a couple minutes you should gauge whether your input is having an effect. If they are clearly close minded and rabidly anti gun, then there's no point in continuing the conversation.

HexHead
July 9, 2013, 05:16 PM
I'm sorry, but the 2nd amendment isn't about taking your leftist friends shooting so they can see how much fun it is. Either they "get it", or they don't.

silicosys4
July 9, 2013, 05:24 PM
I'm sorry, but the 2nd amendment isn't about taking your leftist friends shooting so they can see how much fun it is. Either they "get it", or they don't.

Yes, it is about taking people shooting so they can see how much fun it is. It is also about many other things as well.

As for "They either get it or they don't"....There are enough former non-gun owners and former anti gun people on this board to argue that.

The laziness of this kind of attitude, and the desire to create and maintain conflict instead of working to broaden the appeal of ones opinion, is dismaying to say the least.

Mitlov
July 9, 2013, 05:52 PM
I'm sorry, but the 2nd amendment isn't about taking your leftist friends shooting so they can see how much fun it is. Either they "get it", or they don't.

Being comfortable around guns isn't "what the Second Amendment is about," but it IS a necessary precondition to supporting the Second Amendment, whether looking at it from (1) a personal defense angle, (2) a national defense angle, or (3) a check-on-tyranny angle. It is going to be very, very hard to find someone who has never touched a gun and is afraid of handling one who is going to be very supportive of Second Amendment rights for any one of those three issues. Not everyone who touches a gun will support the Second Amendment, but almost everyone who has never touched one will be unsupportive of the Second Amendment.

Cryogaijin
July 9, 2013, 06:15 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would want "extremely left wing" friends in the first place? 'cause I don't hand potential friends a personality/political leaning survey before I contemplate befriending them, and I won't "unfriend" someone just because I disagree with their political views. In fact I enjoy having friends from a diverse spectrum of the population.

DeadFlies
July 9, 2013, 09:07 PM
Either they "get it", or they don't.

Sorry, the world isn't that uncomplicated. Would be nice if it was, but it aint. People can be swayed and opinions can be changed. Enemies can be made into friends. Sometimes it's difficult but we must try.

HexHead
July 10, 2013, 07:49 AM
Some of you here seem to overlook the reason the FFs put the 2nd into place. It's not about target shooting, hunting, personal defense or just opening your safe periodically to admire your collection. It's about keeping the government in check. Period.

This is why the hard left wants so badly to disarm us. They want an omnipotent central government to control all aspects of our lives. They are a larger threat to our way of life than the Taliban.

Al Thompson
July 10, 2013, 09:04 AM
This is why the hard left wants so badly to disarm us

No disagreement there, but some folks are "brainwashed" a bit and once we can expose them to the proper use of firearms, they tend to see things in a different light.

HexHead
July 10, 2013, 09:15 AM
No disagreement there, but some folks are "brainwashed" a bit and once we can expose them to the proper use of firearms, they tend to see things in a different light.

Do you think they really make the jump from "gee, that was fun" to "Yes, we need the means to resist a tyrannical government"?

Solo
July 10, 2013, 11:35 AM
The government actions of late have made such a jump much easier.

silicosys4
July 10, 2013, 11:36 AM
Do you think they really make the jump from "gee, that was fun" to "Yes, we need the means to resist a tyrannical government"?


Yes, absolutely, I have seen it, last night I had my very liberal friend discussing how N. Koreans would have a much better chance at taking back their country from the current dictatorship if they had access to firearms.

Sam Cade
July 10, 2013, 11:48 AM
Recognize what's going on -- that there is a party of the Left with an agenda to disarm citizens.

Whut? :scrutiny:

By any reasonable metric, the two largest political parties in the US are both right wing authoritarian.

Dean1818
July 10, 2013, 12:21 PM
Do you think they really make the jump from "gee, that was fun" to "Yes, we need the means to resist a tyrannical government"?
The fact is we dont need them to take THAT jump.

If they were just given the opportunity to try shooting in a safe and fun atmosphere, a percentage
of them would start taking to the sport. More shooters, more votes for pro gun candidates, and less support for gun grabbers....... Its as simple as that.

There are many shooters left and right that just enjoy shooting. They dont need to be ready to join a militia or become a deep gun nut.

As a gun nut myself, In the VERY remote case my weapons will have to protect myself or family from individuals or tyrannical rule, so be it...... But that doesnt have to be the final goal of others.

Its my experience, that many non shooters are indifferent to gun ownership. They typically have never fired a weapon.

All I am saying is, where we can, let them try it, maybe on our dime......... Its the quickest way to convert them to not be an anti.

Guns are flying off the shelf, but according to some polls the number of gun owning homes is on the decline. Some of this comes from the huge growth of single parent homes where the son is sometimes raised like a daughter, where things of potential danger are squashed.

(maybe thats a message for "dads" to STAY in a marriage, vs changing wives like underwear........ Another time, another topic)

I do everything I can to take my kids and my kids friends to the range, as well as
their parent............ They always seem to have a great time, and I am asked to take them again.


Its just a step we as gun owners should be thinking of.

AlexanderA
July 10, 2013, 01:01 PM
This is why the hard left wants so badly to disarm us.

I disagree. The really "hard Left" -- by which I mean assorted domestic Communists, Black Panthers, etc. -- is not against guns per se. In fact they want free access to guns in order to further their revolutionary fantasies.

The gun control agenda actually comes from the "muddle-headed middle" -- suburban do-gooders who are swayed by the emotions of the moment.

Today's Democratic Party is not leftist, as measured on a global scale. It's centrist, perhaps slightly to the left of the Republican Party. To the extent its platform is anti-gun, that's because it's trying to appeal to those suburban Soccer Mom swing voters.

Since the anti-gun do-gooders (most of them, at least) are motivated by emotion magnified by ignorance, it might behoove our side to try to educate them. By all means take some ostensible anti-gunners to the range, if they're willing to go. You might be surprised.

Mitlov
July 10, 2013, 01:19 PM
"Enemies" are enemies and, first, you'd better recognize them as such or you are committing suicide. "Trying" to change them by teaching them to shoot is baaad. Mmm kay?

The "uninformed" are not your enemies. They can be informed.

Don't presume your idealogical enemies are uninformed; "never underestimate your enemies" I think I heard someone say once. They are not you and don't think like you. "'Extememly left wing' friends" is an oxymoron. They hate and blame you Mr. Average American Gunowner. They want the power of the state and guns and believe you must be disarmed.

This is why the hard left wants so badly to disarm us. They want an omnipotent central government to control all aspects of our lives. They are a larger threat to our way of life than the Taliban.

A lot of Americans of all political persuasions believe that people who disagree with them on specific issue must hate America, hate freedom, etc. This is dead wrong and it's a self-destructive way of thinking and talking, because it drives away people who may potentially be involved in the cause you care about instead of bringing others over to your views. Basically all Americans want the best for America, and they just disagree on what specific policy decisions will get us there.

Very few voters are one-issue voters. Don't assume that all people who vote Republican are pro-second-amendment or all people who vote Democrat are anti-second-amendment. I know at least one person who votes Republican for tax policy reasons but supports banning modern sporting rifles. I know several people who vote Democrat for gay rights or health care reasons but are staunchly opposed to such laws.

Battles over the second amendment and legislation affecting the RKBA will never be won by alienating everyone but the "one percenters." Legislative battles are won by changing people's minds and getting greater bipartisan support for your cause.

And people's minds can and do change. I'm pretty "left wing" on a number of issues. I'm not interested in debating health care policy or gay rights with anyone here, but just for the record, I'm a "left-winger." I'm also supportive of the second amendment. And no, I wasn't born that way. It's something that came with (1) gaining familiarity of firearms as an adult (people generally fear what they don't know) and (2) increasing frustration with federal surveillance and police powers from the USA Patriot Act to PRISM.

Don't believe me that there is anyone on the left side of the aisle who supports the Second Amendment? Take Anonymous, the hactivist group known for its left-wing stances on Occupy Wall Street and WikiLeaks. Here's their policy statement on Obama's gun policy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQo_IBkKNq8

The sooner you start realizing that not all "conservatives" are your friends when it comes to the RKBA and not all "liberals" or "left-wingers" are your enemy, the better.

AlexanderA
July 10, 2013, 11:25 PM
Let me see if I understand what I think you are saying... That Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Boxer, Feinstein, McCarthy, Israel, etc. are really not anti-gun, these leaders of their party only exploit mass shootings, include gun-bans in their party platform, and push anti-gun legislation to get a few extra votes (when most people think we have enough gun laws on the books)?

Most of those politicians don't have any core beliefs. They say and do whatever they think will get them votes. (I'll grant you that Feinstein and McCarthy may -- may -- have ingrained antipathy to guns, given their personal experiences with gun violence. But they're old and won't be around much longer.) Due to polarization and gerrymandering, these politicians probably reflect the views of their constituents. As gun owners, we need to work on convincing the constituents, even in so-called antigun jurisdictions. Convince the people that you're right on the issue, and the politicians will follow along. Or they'll be replaced. It makes sense to expose as many people as possible to the positive aspects of guns. Remember one thing -- there are many, many more people that are passionate in favor of guns than are passionate against guns. Antigun sentiment in this country is a mile wide but only an inch deep. That's why antigun campaigns based on emotional reactions to unfortunate incidents always fade. Gun owners have a direct, vested interest; antigunners don't.

Bhi curamach
July 11, 2013, 12:38 AM
'16 would be a more accurate "start " but go back much, much farther for plenty of uprisings, rebellions, attempts to regain ones own country, etc...
Most of the ones I know, including several immediate family members are about as divided as Americans. Strictly speaking on guns that is.
Nice video by the way.
I took a cousin from Galway out a few times and it was all I could do to get him to give back the gun. An uncle on the otherhand wanted nothing to do withit. Started on about the troubles. Luckily he doesntvisit often.

Al Thompson
July 11, 2013, 09:00 AM
Do you think they really make the jump from "gee, that was fun" to "Yes, we need the means to resist a tyrannical government"?

Some, yes. The goal is to demystify firearms and show that firearms are just tools. Buddy of mine took a left leaning radio talk show host to the range. He shot a 12 gauge pump loaded with buckshot vrs. an AR to show the host that an AR was not the "killing machine" that MSM was lying about.

Worked. ;)

Cryogaijin
July 11, 2013, 11:25 AM
In my experience as someone quite a few people in this thread "wouldn't want as a friend" many people that are fence-sitters about the gun issue tend to get all of their firearms information from Hollywood or Big Media.

Hollywood and Big Media have a vested interest in keeping the general population in fear and awe of firearms; guns being magical weapons that can kill in one shot, every time, at any distance tends to make for more tension and "better" action in action movies. The news likes having big splashy headlines about "Teh Ebil Gunzzz!" and tend to throw out more disinformation than anything useful.

As such, a good chunk of my "rangetrips with newbie friends" is deprogramming from the "magical thinking" Hollywood/big media likes foisting off on the populace as fact. I like pointing out that the best silencers in the world (I refuse to call them suppressors. The patent reads silencer, and I'm not going to dishonor Hiram Percy Maxim's name by calling it something else) can't do more than a 40 decibels. Most centerfire guns tend to be in the 150 db range, which would only drop them into the 110 db range, still freaking loud, and loud enough to attract attention.

I point out that repeating firearms have been around since the late 1700s, and weren't exempted from the 2nd amendment then, no reason to now.

I point out that guns don't "Simply go off" and will demonstrate drop safety with a snap-cap loaded handgun.

I share the SAAMI ammo safety video far and wide, having introduced it to several firehouses.

I share the FBI's Crime In The United States database info and point out how pointless rifle legislation is.

I explain the physics and engineering of firearms in order to demonstrate why media talking about "copkiller!" ammo is misinformed. (I especially like the california news articles about the S&W .500 magnum being a copkiller before the gun was even released, despite tests of the .500 on type II vests showing no penetration.)

And as I am a part of the "over-educated ivory tower intellectual" crowd, I frequently end up explaining to ignorant "over-educated ivory tower intellectuals" why handguns are preferable to blades in virtually every self-defense situation, as well as why you'd rather be shot than slashed. (The college crowd has a HUGE love for swords and knives that is not justified by reality)

I have never once taken someone to the range and had it reinforce their anti-gun ideas. The reality tends to be so VERY VERY much different than what they have pictured in their heads that it can't help but change their opinion.

David4516
July 11, 2013, 03:43 PM
Cryogaijin, where was this located? It looks like "brown's camp" off of highway 6?

Iramo94
July 11, 2013, 04:03 PM
Concerning all the talk of "enemies" and such:
I would argue that there are really very, very few people who are truly enemies to RKBA. I would say that many people (like Mr. Bloomberg for example) truly believe they are helping the general population by making weapons harder to access. They are wrong, but they have good intentions. They simply are misinformed.
Very few believe "I'm taking your guns so you are helpless against government control."

Pilot
July 11, 2013, 04:30 PM
Concerning all the talk of "enemies" and such:
I would argue that there are really very, very few people who are truly enemies to RKBA. I would say that many people (like Mr. Bloomberg for example) truly believe they are helping the general population by making weapons harder to access. They are wrong, but they have good intentions. They simply are misinformed.
Very few believe "I'm taking your guns so you are helpless against government control."
I disagree that they have good intentions. The politicians like Bloomberg just want to disarm the law abiding populace in order to further control and subjugate them. Good intentions has nothing to do with it. The baby boomer, liberal MAY have good intentions as they've been brainwashed into thinking all guns are bad, and it is the gun not the criminal that is at fault.

brickeyee
July 11, 2013, 04:57 PM
The first thing non-gun folks always say when handed a 1911 (or a 6 inch Python) is "It is so heavy."

And I always reply "Yep, it is a big chunk of steel.

Cryogaijin
July 11, 2013, 05:56 PM
Yup, Brown's camp. Was a good day, though I had to explain why one of the guys doing handgun shooting was an idiot.

Grassman
July 11, 2013, 06:23 PM
I just make it a point not to have any liberal friends, or at least none that iI spend any time with.

David4516
July 11, 2013, 06:36 PM
Thought it was Browns Camp. I used to shoot there frequently, but about 5 years ago moved from OR to WA and now it's just too far of a drive.

I know what you mean about the idiots, seen some dumb people out there myself. Stay safe!

Dean1818
July 11, 2013, 06:46 PM
I think everyone need some friends different than they are...

IMHO

I am brutally conservative, but...... There are times when the Grand Old Party may be overstating things

I have a far left sister, who I love dearly, and other liberal friends, and it helps me to stay balanced

We agree to disagree and move on....

Mitlov
July 11, 2013, 07:13 PM
...folk who feel "extremely left wing" people are really harmless, patriotic, freedom and liberty-loving Americans at heart -- albeit a little misguided but receptive to the influence a gunowner can have by teaching them to target shoot -- will take them to the range.

And people who think that "extremely left wing" people are blame-America-first ideolgues who are dangerous and will do whatever they can get away with personally and publicly to fundamentally undermine and transform the U.S. from a democratic republic to a perpetual dictatorial tyranny by the Party of the Left, where the right to keep and bear arms would become a state-controlled privilege, refuse to be silent any more and will not contribute to the demise of the nation, be the agents of their own and their posterity's demise, by taking radicals to a range to train using what they only think of as deadly, necessary, tools of revolution for the oppressed victim classes.

So do you believe that taking "lefties" to the range is bad because you anticipate a shooting war with "lefties" in your lifetime? If not, what's the harm in taking someone to the range, regardless of their opinion of firearms legislation? They're certainly not going to become MORE aggressive with anti-firearms legislation than they were beforehand, so the only practical reason I see for having a "I won't go shooting with a liberal" is if you anticipated being in a shooting war against them in the future. Is that your position?

Al Thompson
July 11, 2013, 08:53 PM
I'm going to do something I usually don't do as it's kind of bad for a Moderator to do so, but. :)

I'm going to make a statement and then close the thread. Feel free to saddle your Llama and PM another moderator or hit the report button.

...folk who feel "extremely left wing" people are really harmless, patriotic, freedom and liberty-loving Americans at heart -- albeit a little misguided but receptive to the influence a gunowner can have by teaching them to target shoot -- will take them to the range.

That's about as clear cased statement of polar thinking as I've seen expressed. It ain't either North Pole or South Pole. Very, very many of us are decidedly liberal in the old schools of thought. Taking someone who is a "left wing radical" to the range may be poor judgement - if, big if, they espouse something like true Communist beliefs. Those folks cannot be reasoned with. The person who is left wing (especially here in SC) may simply be of a different political party.

Taking someone to the range who is a Democrat (who may or may not be a "leftist") is a whole different option. Rs and Ds at state level are fairly meaningless.

Have to use some judgement. ;)

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