you know what my pet peeve is?


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avs11054
July 4, 2013, 07:05 PM
When some idiot's wife is pointing an AR-15 at you while you are at Cabelas because she wants to look down the sights...and then the idiot repeats his wife's moves.

Off my soapbox.

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AlexanderA
July 4, 2013, 07:13 PM
You should go over and say something to them about it. They'll never learn safety and courtesy unless a few people speak up.

avs11054
July 4, 2013, 07:18 PM
I know. I was just so shocked at the time that I didnt even think to do that.

Impureclient
July 4, 2013, 07:19 PM
Shouting at them loudly and so it drew attention across the store to not point a gun at you would have helped them learn real quick.

bobinoregon
July 4, 2013, 07:51 PM
If Cabelas scares you, I'd say never go to a gun show. Somewhere in life we have to realize everybody isnt out to kill us. At least to me personally, there is safety on a range and there is safety in a store where the odds are million to one of it being loaded. Embarassing a new person does nothing to support the cause, but risks alienating someone on the fence.

avs11054
July 4, 2013, 07:56 PM
where the odds are million to one of it being loaded.*

I tend to agree with most of your post, but plenty of people have been shot with an 'unloaded' gun. I also put it on the store employees too. Not just at cabelas, but ive seen it happen at other gun stores and gun shows too. They are not helping us either by not correcting this behavior when it happens.

kbbailey
July 4, 2013, 08:57 PM
....yea, I'm a bit concerned that the latest gun buying craze has put some high cap weapons in the hands of some ppl that really don't have a clue !!??

OilyPablo
July 4, 2013, 09:03 PM
high cap weapons

What the heck does THAT mean?

Stores really should have something up in corner to point twice checked guns at.

Larry Ashcraft
July 4, 2013, 09:32 PM
there is safety in a store where the odds are million to one of it being loaded.
I don't care about the odds. Don't point a deadly weapon at me. Period.
high cap weapons
Yes. Explanation please.

7.62 Nato
July 4, 2013, 11:47 PM
Why don't gun shops, and gun shows just hang a large replica target high up on a far wall to give people something to "site in" on ? They could even include a sign saying "Aim Here" for everyones safety.

MaterDei
July 4, 2013, 11:53 PM
While I agree that what they did is bad etiquette, I also agree that the likely hood of something bad happening is exceedingly remote. My carry gun IS loaded and it is always pointed at something I'm not prepared to destroy anytime it is holstered IWB.

Tommygunn
July 5, 2013, 12:21 AM
I don't blame the OP for being upset at being covered by a customer.
I have handled many weapons at gunstores, most lately an M1A rifle I bought. I always make a very deliberate point of sighting it UPWARD at a point I know there will no people who can be covered by my firearm's muzzle.
Also the first thing I do is check the weapons breech. I also notice that the store employee also is very good at checking the breech where I shop.

avs11054
July 5, 2013, 12:46 AM
Also the first thing I do is check the weapons breech. I also notice that the store employee also is very good at checking the breech where I shop.

Another good habit to have. The employee made sure the glock that I looked at today was cleared before hanf8ng it to me. He gave it to me with the slide forward. First thing I did was locked the slide back and made sure the gun was unloaded.

I understand that the odds of something bad happening are slim to none, but not following the four rules every single time leads to complacency, and that is when people start getting hurt.

Magnuumpwr
July 5, 2013, 12:55 AM
Habit for me is to clear a gun as soon as it is handed to me. Handguns that I may possibly take a closer look at, I cover the end of the barrel with my hand or finger. Being human, an area that was clear when the gun was handed to me may not be by the time I am finished inspecting it. Also never place my finger on the trigger, but on the trigger guard, yes. Bet your butt I am not going to shoot someone thru my hand/finger.

Hondo 60
July 5, 2013, 01:03 AM
Pointing a weapon at someone is NOT just "bad etiquette".
It's down right not intelligent! I'd like to say something stronger, but this is "the high road"
I certainly would've said something.


Why don't gun shops, and gun shows just hang a large replica target high up on a far wall to give people something to "site in" on ? They could even include a sign saying "Aim Here" for everyones safety.

That right there is GREAT idea.
Please speak up at gun stores. If we all ask, they'll listen.

cfullgraf
July 5, 2013, 01:17 AM
The target idea is a good one.

But I am always able to find something to aim at that does not point a firearm at person.

Ignition Override
July 5, 2013, 01:18 AM
Most guns are Always pointed at people at every gun show I've attended (over twenty). The majority are horizontal on tables.

When they are help upright in a gun rack, I make a sincere effort to Keep them pointed towards the ceiling, and if it's a bolt action, use the ceiling light to immed. get an idea about the bore shine and rifling.

But most people seem not to bother, maybe because it seems awkward to keep the muzzle pointed upwards?

cfullgraf
July 5, 2013, 01:27 AM
Most guns are Always pointed at people at every gun show I've attended (over twenty). The majority are horizontal on tables.



Right but there is not some clown with their finger on the trigger and sighting down the barrel.

I would prefer to not walk across the bore of an unattended rifle, but not as much a concern as when somebody is sweeping it across the crowd.

I would prefer the vendor to have the guns positioned with the butt to the aisle, not the muzzle.

medalguy
July 5, 2013, 02:24 AM
One in a million odds aren't really very good. There are, according to one report, 130,000 gun stores in America. If only 8 people a day point a rifle at someone, that's more than a million times PER DAY. Wonder which one of those will be loaded and pointed at me???

Trent
July 5, 2013, 02:48 AM
....yea, I'm a bit concerned that the latest gun buying craze has put some high cap weapons in the hands of some ppl that really don't have a clue !!??

As opposed to single shot rifles which are so much less dangerous when handled with safety violations?

What the hell does magazine capacity, action type, or any other factor have to do with it?

30 round magazine in an AR15 or AK47, or 1 round in a muzzle loader, doesn't matter. Dead is dead, and I'd rather not have my head perforated by some idiot regardless of the iron in their hands at the time.

Someone sweeps me, anywhere, and they're going to get an earful. I expect others to do the same to me if I get careless or casual with guns.

As far as 'high cap weapons in the hands of people who don't have a clue', that's just ridiculous. People have a right to buy and use whatever they choose to. That's why it's called a RIGHT. You don't have to beg permission to exercise a RIGHT.

It's thinking like that, which will end up costing us everything.

Because someday they're going to figure out the most dangerous guns are not the 'high capacity' ones, but rather, single shot bolt action guns capable of taking a human out at a mile away. Several cartridges are still supersonic at that distance, and quite accurate.

Or, from a criminal forensics perspective, perhaps we should look at shotguns. A breech or pump loaded 12 gauge magnum with 00 buck damages the human body with the equivalent wound tracks of 15 9mm rounds (how's that for high cap??), but even better, leaves no shell casing behind, has no rifling to trace, and is impossible to link forensically to any given smoothbore shotgun. It's the perfect weapon for criminals.

So don't be so quick to throw 'high capacity' guns under the bus, once those are gone, and the precedent set, the rest of the 'old hunting guns' will follow in short order, because quite frankly, there are better tools for the job. The crooks are dumb, but won't be for long. Their tactics will change with the availability of arms.

Remember the recent first-responder ambush in NY where the grandmother-killing recidivistic suicidal firebug felon was done with a standard capacity rifle.

Ignition Override
July 5, 2013, 03:17 AM
cfullgraf: Maybe most people aim gun show rifles down at the floor, but I never notice other people only aiming them upwards at the ceiling,
to avoid a 'sweep'.
As the gun bug never 'bit me' until age 52, typical gun guys who have many more years of solid experience seem to feel that they can't make any mistakes. My technique could appear overcautious.

Cee Zee
July 5, 2013, 03:17 AM
Let's not forget that we see lots of newbies working the gun counters in the big box stores these days. I couldn't count the times I've walked into a Walmart or Dick's and talked to someone behind the gun counter who probably didn't know which end the bullets came out. Yes that's a stretch but not as much as some might think. There are certainly people working behind those counters who don't know the basic safety rules. You'd think they would want to avoid handing a loaded gun to someone who might use it to rob their store but it seems they think it's just another object like a loaf of bread and it doesn't matter than it might blow your head off.

I've been so mad at people in gun shops, even LGS's where the salesmen know better, that I couldn't count those times either. I don't like having someone point a gun at me that wasn't even checked to see if it was loaded by the person doing the pointing.

Heck I had a kid at a flea market shoot a pellet into a puddle at just the right angle to make it ricochet and I was exactly in line to be shot by it. I told him not to do it again and dang if he didn't do it on purpose again. I called 911 immediately and told them some lunatic kid was shooting a gun in the parking lot of the flea market. His dad showed up a few seconds later and found out from his kid what was going on and they flew out of there like their truck was on fire. I imagine the seat of that kid's pants were on fire shortly after that ordeal.

But the dang LEO's never did show up. People die from being shot by pellet guns all the time. Some shoot harder than .22's. And I didn't even tell the cops it was a pellet gun. What a world.

Here's what happens when pellet guns are used to shoot people:

Second child killed in pellet gun accident (http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/9186324/)

Here's a quote from that article:

"The gun can be pumped up to 10 times to produce enough pressure to shoot a pellet at the same velocity as a .22-caliber handgun, they said."

thorazine
July 5, 2013, 04:07 AM
When some idiot's wife is pointing an AR-15 at you while you are at Cabelas because she wants to look down the sights...and then the idiot repeats his wife's moves.

How else are you supposed to check the sights?


"Hey honey what am I supposed to aim at?"

"Sweetie.. point it at that man sized target right down there."

"Right down there?"

"Yup.. that that one."

[SOLD] :D

PabloJ
July 5, 2013, 06:28 AM
Why don't gun shops, and gun shows just hang a large replica target high up on a far wall to give people something to "site in" on ? They could even include a sign saying "Aim Here" for everyones safety.
Probably because buildings have high walls and ceilings.

beatledog7
July 5, 2013, 08:36 AM
Another muzzling thread?

I've been muzzled many times at gun shows and LGSs, and will undoubtedly be again, and I have probably at some point given another person the thought that I was muzzling him. I dare say that is true for anyone reading this thread.

Some people consider themselves incapable of sweeping anyone because their gun etiquette is really just that perfect; however, everyone who has handled guns extensively at gun shows, retail shops, and the like has at some time or other given someone else the impression that he just got muzzled. Realistically, how can one handle a gun at such a venue without doing that? What is the safe point of aim at a gun show? No matter where you point the muzzle you either sweep people getting it to what you consider a safe point of aim or point it a hard surface that could cause shrapnel or a ricochet if the gun discharged. I don't recall ever seeing a single clearing barrel at a gun show.

We all stand a greater chance of being poisoned via shoddy food handling or getting run over by a poor driver than shot via poor gun handling.

Yes, this is a gun forum, not a food safety or defensive driving forum. But it bears noting from time to time that we are imperfect gun handlers, and it is the one who thinks he can never screw up that is most likely to screw up.

Lex Luthier
July 5, 2013, 08:38 AM
Sighting down a new weapon does NOT need to even happen at the gun counter. You examine the mechanism, the parts, the finish, pertinent numbers, check for flaws.

I believe that grabbing a weapon and sighting it like that is the most newbie move you can make. It shows that you don't care about the above important stuff. And it makes you look like a newbie. You can sight that thing in later when it's loaded.

"Checking your aim" should only happen in a live fire environment. If you do not have the patience to wait and not look like an idiot, don't buy a gun please. This is how negligent discharges happen.

PabloJ
July 5, 2013, 08:41 AM
When some idiot's wife is pointing an AR-15 at you while you are at Cabelas because she wants to look down the sights...and then the idiot repeats his wife's moves.

Off my soapbox.
My pet peeve is ignorant and stupid people having access to firearms. They should test common sense on federal and state gun purchasing forms that way maybe people would try harder in school think about what they're doing and our population would stop becoming more and more stupid as time goes on.

76shuvlinoff
July 5, 2013, 08:55 AM
I was on jury where one drug dealer ripped off another drug dealer .... to shorten the story the prosecuting attorney kept sweeping the jurors box with a PGO shotgun. I was royally pissed but bit my lip and didn't speak up.

To this day I don't know if he did it out of ignorance or intentionally to intimidate the jury with this weapon of mass destruction. All it did for me was convince me he was a fool.

beatledog7
July 5, 2013, 09:30 AM
"Checking your aim" should only happen in a live fire environment. If you do not have the patience to wait and not look like an idiot, don't buy a gun please. This is how negligent discharges happen.

NDs are not caused by this; they are caused by fingers on triggers.

HOOfan_1
July 5, 2013, 09:46 AM
Sighting down a new weapon does NOT need to even happen at the gun counter. You examine the mechanism, the parts, the finish, pertinent numbers, check for flaws.


umm...sorry...but that is wrong....

Why would you buy a gun if you don't even know if it fits your hand well and "points" well for you. Once you buy the gun it is yours....how many gunshops do you know which will take the gun back if you come back in and say "well it just doesn't fit me well"?

Guess you must think that dry fire practice that many instructors advocate is wrong as well....because you aren't doing that practice "at the firing line"

Point the gun in a safre direction....pretty easy.

Hanzo581
July 5, 2013, 09:59 AM
I don't know about gun shows where you are but here they guns actions are zip tied, so while I don't like it I let it slide. It does happen to me at gun shops though, but I end up saying something or moving. While the chances are "1 in a million" of the gun being loaded, my luck has been known to be pretty bad.

Madcap_Magician
July 5, 2013, 10:32 AM
When some idiot's wife is pointing an AR-15 at you while you are at Cabelas because she wants to look down the sights...and then the idiot repeats his wife's moves.

Off my soapbox.

This has never happened to me in Minnesota, which is a good thing, since pointing a firearm, loaded or unloaded, at another person in Minnesota constitutes Assault in the Second Degree. :fire:

stumpers
July 5, 2013, 10:48 AM
Sighting down a new weapon does NOT need to even happen at the gun counter. You examine the mechanism, the parts, the finish, pertinent numbers, check for flaws.

I believe that grabbing a weapon and sighting it like that is the most newbie move you can make. It shows that you don't care about the above important stuff. And it makes you look like a newbie. You can sight that thing in later when it's loaded.

"Checking your aim" should only happen in a live fire environment. If you do not have the patience to wait and not look like an idiot, don't buy a gun please. This is how negligent discharges happen.

I've never had a negligent discharge due to the impatience associated with fully checking the ergonomics of a potential gun purchase by looking down the sights.

I have, however, decided not to buy a gun after holding on target and realizing the sights sucked or the thing pointed funny in my hands.

I'm going to Cabelas later today and I'm going to pick up every gun I can and "check my aim" - I may not even buy anything.

Torian
July 5, 2013, 10:58 AM
If Cabelas scares you, I'd say never go to a gun show. Somewhere in life we have to realize everybody isnt out to kill us. At least to me personally, there is safety on a range and there is safety in a store where the odds are million to one of it being loaded. Embarassing a new person does nothing to support the cause, but risks alienating someone on the fence.
Irrelevant statistic. We always do our best to mitigate risks. A little bit of tact can go a long way when it comes to explaining gun safety.

I'll worry about their personal embarrassment later :)

Salmoneye
July 5, 2013, 11:00 AM
Sighting down a new weapon does NOT need to even happen at the gun counter. You examine the mechanism, the parts, the finish, pertinent numbers, check for flaws.

I believe that grabbing a weapon and sighting it like that is the most newbie move you can make.

That is your opinion...

My opinion is that only a n006 would get home and find out that the front sight is canted on a rifle or revolver...

Now instead of just not buying the gun, the n006 has to contact the manufacturer for a call tag, etc., etc....

GBExpat
July 5, 2013, 11:00 AM
Somewhere in life we have to realize everybody isnt out to kill us.

You really think that that is what this is about? Really?

David E
July 5, 2013, 11:01 AM
Somewhere in life we have to realize everybody isnt out to kill us.

And gun accidents never happen, right?

At least to me personally, there is safety in a store where the odds are million to one of it being loaded.

Pretty generous odds when YOU know absolutely nothing about its status, who handled it, etc.

Embarassing (sic) a new person does nothing to support the cause, but risks alienating someone on the fence.

Allowing them to think its A-OK to point a gun at people as long as the "odds are a million to one of it being loaded" is worse.

Carl N. Brown
July 5, 2013, 11:21 AM
you know what my pet peeve is?
-------------------------------

When some idiot's wife is pointing an AR-15 at you while you are at Cabelas because she wants to look down the sights...and then the idiot repeats his wife's moves.

Off my soapbox.
I would be peeved. I got four pet peeves stolen from Jeff Cooper:
* People with no danger awareness: who don't treat all guns (even "range toys" and "wall hangers") with the respect due loaded lethal weapons.
* People with no muzzle discipline: who let the muzzle sweep anyone or anything that should not be destroyed.*
* People with no trigger discipline: who put their finger on the trigger when they are not actually sighting an intended target.
* People with no situational awareness: who don't clearly identify their target and have no idea what else is in their line of fire.
I also have several dozen free range peeves, besides my pet peeves, but that's enough for now.

*I have been known to aim at sprinkler fixtures at the gun shop or gun show ceiling, but never at people. (Come to think of it, nothing would shout fire in a crowded auditorium like shooting the end off a sprinkler! Finger off the trigger when checking sight picture!)

Trent
July 5, 2013, 11:31 AM
*I have been known to aim at sprinkler fixtures at the gun shop or gun show ceiling, but never at people.

My boresight target is my camper's rear reflector. The 'hotel on wheels' sits about 50 yards from my back deck.

My dry fire handgun target is whatever happens to be on my 46" TV screen. But I only do dry fire with all ammo removed from my immediate vicinity, and the gun gets checked again after I grab a late night snack or b-room break.

People who live in apartments or multi-level homes have it tougher than some, they really need to focus on trigger discipline.

Buddy of mine who lived in an apartment put a round of 12 ga 00-buck through the ceiling, in to his friend's apartment above his, one night. He swears he checked the gun.... Only thing hurt was some drywall and a T shirt on the floor of his friend's apartment, but his friend was sleeping 6' away from the new hole in his floor.

Slept right through it, too. My friend ran upstairs and pounded on his door to check on the other guy, got no answer for a couple of minutes until he finally woke up and answered the door. My buddy thought he'd killed him, since it was night time and the round went up through the bedroom floor.

No one in the apartment complex heard it, no LEO was involved.

Trunk Monkey
July 5, 2013, 11:50 AM
My opinion, take it for what itís worth. Iím not going to change their behavior I just step out of the line of fire

cbpagent72
July 5, 2013, 12:00 PM
What is a high cap firearm? I believe you meant a firearm that can accommodate high cap magazines but what do you consider a high cap magazine?

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2

Cee Zee
July 5, 2013, 03:31 PM
Realistically, how can one handle a gun at such a venue without doing that?

It's actually very simple. Point at a high spot on a wall above the head of everyone. Any possible ricochets would have to bounce off the wall then off the ceiling (2 rails if you shoot pool) before coming back down to hit someone. It may not be a perfect system but it's a dang better way than aiming directly at another human.

You know there are people who get totally out of their head seeing a gun pointed their way. Victims of previous crimes can fall into that category. Having a loaded gun pointed at you in anger is no fun whatsoever. I know that much because I've had them pointed at me during armed robberies. I can see where that would cause less stable people to completely lose it on the floor of a gun shop. Pointing any gun at someone is never a good idea.

Yes I know we all sweep innocent types every time we carry concealed pretty much. If nothing else I sweep myself while carrying concealed. There are rules for that situation too. And I try very hard to follow them. We all should. We don't need any more bad press about accidents. We should try to educate the uninitiated here and in the real world too.

OptimusPrime
July 5, 2013, 03:40 PM
FWIW, I learned something I heard on THR about a year ago.
Every time I handle a firearm at a store, I always ask the clerk "where is a safe direction to point?"
They like the question, and I hope that the habit of doing that translates into them pointing it out to every customer. It's one of those "demonstrate a good thing and people will copy it." Hopefully. My daughter does it already.

beatledog7
July 5, 2013, 08:00 PM
Point at a high spot on a wall above the head of everyone.

And what about the path of that muzzle as it swings up to that safe spot? Sure, that spot could be safe, but you can't beam the muzzle up there--it has to travel a path.

Cee Zee
July 5, 2013, 11:02 PM
And what about the path of that muzzle as it swings up to that safe spot? Sure, that spot could be safe, but you can't beam the muzzle up there--it has to travel a path

I make sure I have a path to raise it up or I keep it pointed at the floor. I've never failed to find a safe path to pointing a gun high though. Usually I make sure the gun is pointed up when I grab it. Most of the time the people working in gun shops know the best way to get the gun pointed high and I just keep it up when they hand the gun to me.

Tango2020
July 6, 2013, 12:51 AM
I had the same thing happen to me at a Bass Pro. A 10 year old kid picked up a used hunting rifle off of a rack, pointed it straight at me looking through the scope.

I understand what the OP said....I was frozen. I was carrying concealed and did not go for my gun but having a muzzle pointed at you hits you like a ton of bricks.

His Dad turned an said "put that down" and the kid drops the rifle on the floor,picks it up and set it back on the rack.

You can say all the comments of what you WOULD say or do IF that happened to you.
A Kid,unloaded,in a gun store,odds. None of that was in the calculations while I had that muzzle pointed at my head.
P.S I just turned and walked out of the store.

morcey2
July 6, 2013, 01:06 AM
In a busy gun store or a gun show, I get irked but keep my mouth shut. What I don't like is when there are only 2 of us in a gun store (not counting employees) and the other customer can point almost anywhere but keeps pointing guns directly at me. It has happened a couple of times. I ask nicely the first time and quit being very nice after that. Usually the employees back me up.

There are times that you're going to be covered by the muzzle and you can't do anything about it, but don't get complacent when it happens.

Matt

HOOfan_1
July 6, 2013, 01:16 AM
There are times that you're going to be covered by the muzzle and you can't do anything about it, but don't get complacent when it happens.


Indeed. Many of us are in more danger every day on the freeway with that 35 ton semi right on our bumper.

No need to be complacent when someone points a gun at you in a gun store...but if you know it is just poor gun handling, there is no reason to break into a cold sweat either. Just move out of the line of fire.

Guns pointed in your direction at the range...that is a step up in danger.

maxyedor
July 6, 2013, 03:59 AM
Poor management at your local Cabelas. Employees should be instructing customers where to safely point a gun before handing it over. Sure not everybody pays attention to that, but it solves 99% of problems.

One of my local gun-shops has animal mounts throughout the store in safe spots, that works really well. Instead of "point at that wall" it "Check out that boar's head over there". Those of us familiar with firearms know it's just a safe place to point, the uninitiated think "oh cool, it's like I'm shooting a pig".

allaroundhunter
July 6, 2013, 04:02 AM
....yea, I'm a bit concerned that the latest gun buying craze has put some high cap weapons in the hands of some ppl that really don't have a clue !!??

This irrational fear right here is my biggest pet peeve....

kbbailey
July 6, 2013, 10:18 AM
Quote:
high cap weapons
Yes. Explanation please.

The reason I mentioned hi-cap, is because it seems to me that is what the 'newbies' are buying . ARs, AKs, SKS. ...and yea, some of those guys don't have a clue ABOUT GUN SAFETY. "Call of Duty" and other video games don't teach you to check the chamber when someone hands a weapon to you.

Don't read anything into my comment. I have more 30rd mags than you can carry without a sack.

Potatohead
July 6, 2013, 10:26 AM
not following the four rules every single time leads to complacency, and that is when people start getting hurt.
this is very true, i promise you

Trunk Monkey
July 6, 2013, 10:31 AM
As I said earlier I don’t waste time trying to teach firearms safety to random strangers. They don’t listen and they don’t appreciate it.

About a year ago I took a hand gun to Specialty Sports in Colorado Springs to have some work done on it. I had already called ahead and the Smith knew I was coming. I walked to the back of the store where he was working on a hunting rifle. He had the rifle in hand and was looking at the scope, I introduced myself and he aimed the rifle right at me. (please note I did not say "pointed it at me" I said aimed)

I stepped to the side and told him that I had the gun here to be worked on and that it was in the box with the part to be changed and that the slide was locked back if he cared to check the chamber. He aimed at me again and told me to just leave the gun on the counter and he’d get to it in a few minutes.

I stepped to the side again and said OK sure I just wanted to make sure you knew the gun was here and he did it again.

Long story short he did the work, I got the gun back in just a few minutes, the work was well done at a reasonable price AND NOT ONE DIME OF MY MONEY WILL EVER FIND ITS WAY INTO SPECIALTY SPORTS IN COLORADO SPRINGS AGAIN.

Potatohead
July 6, 2013, 10:33 AM
Another muzzling thread?

I've been muzzled many times at gun shows and LGSs, and will undoubtedly be again, and I have probably at some point given another person the thought that I was muzzling him. I dare say that is true for anyone reading this thread.

Some people consider themselves incapable of sweeping anyone because their gun etiquette is really just that perfect; however, everyone who has handled guns extensively at gun shows, retail shops, and the like has at some time or other given someone else the impression that he just got muzzled. Realistically, how can one handle a gun at such a venue without doing that? What is the safe point of aim at a gun show? No matter where you point the muzzle you either sweep people getting it to what you consider a safe point of aim or point it a hard surface that could cause shrapnel or a ricochet if the gun discharged. I don't recall ever seeing a single clearing barrel at a gun show.

We all stand a greater chance of being poisoned via shoddy food handling or getting run over by a poor driver than shot via poor gun handling.

Yes, this is a gun forum, not a food safety or defensive driving forum. But it bears noting from time to time that we are imperfect gun handlers, and it is the one who thinks he can never screw up that is most likely to screw up.

i think that was a pretty good post fellas, still doesnt mean anyone enjoys being swept

X-Rap
July 6, 2013, 11:29 AM
There are certainly different levels of danger and as pointed out above when handling a firearm from a three dimensional aspect in a busy gun shop, or gun show it is near impossible to get the weapon in hand without muzzling someone unless it is stored in a vertical muzzle up position.
Of greater concern to me is the access to the public that some of these venues afford and how the gun may be presented from behind a counter.
When a store has a rack that permits the public to freely pick up what ever they wish I feel the opportunity for those with evil intent is greater than I like, and I am very conscious of the muzzle and trigger discipline of others.
When at a store that has counter men who always clear the chamber when presenting and replacing it in the rack or case at least I know that someone has at least looked.
I have seen loaded mags stuck in guns that were supposed to be clear and set out for the public to handle and seen a few ND's at gun shows and it is a chilling reminder of the fallibility of man and the dire consequences of it.
All that said if we can never make a gun "safe" then they will be virtually impossible to handle, clean, transport, or repair. For each of us that condition may vary but I like to see a slide locked back with no mag and empty chamber, cylinder swung out, bolt open, or action broken open this basically separates any chance of contact with the firing pin and a cartridge, I know it can be broken down further but the separation of the critical parts is what will keep the gun from firing.

K0ZZZ
July 7, 2013, 11:48 PM
As I said earlier I don’t waste time trying to teach firearms safety to random strangers. They don’t listen and they don’t appreciate it.

About a year ago I took a hand gun to Specialty Sports in Colorado Springs to have some work done on it. I had already called ahead and the Smith knew I was coming. I walked to the back of the store where he was working on a hunting rifle. He had the rifle in hand and was looking at the scope, I introduced myself and he aimed the rifle right at me. (please note I did not say "pointed it at me" I said aimed)

I stepped to the side and told him that I had the gun here to be worked on and that it was in the box with the part to be changed and that the slide was locked back if he cared to check the chamber. He aimed at me again and told me to just leave the gun on the counter and he’d get to it in a few minutes.

I stepped to the side again and said OK sure I just wanted to make sure you knew the gun was here and he did it again.

Long story short he did the work, I got the gun back in just a few minutes, the work was well done at a reasonable price AND NOT ONE DIME OF MY MONEY WILL EVER FIND ITS WAY INTO SPECIALTY SPORTS IN COLORADO SPRINGS AGAIN.
While the sales staff at Specialty Sports in COS has definitely gotten much better than in years past, they're still a bit expensive. And obviously the gunsmith staff needs an overhaul. I've bought from them in the past, but they're mostly used as a gun superstore to fondle as many guns as possible.

CZguy
July 8, 2013, 12:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbbailey View Post
....yea, I'm a bit concerned that the latest gun buying craze has put some high cap weapons in the hands of some ppl that really don't have a clue !!??

This irrational fear right here is my biggest pet peeve....

My biggest pet peeve...............are people who have pet peeves. :D

crazy-mp
July 8, 2013, 01:46 AM
My biggest pet peeve is people at gun shows who walk up to my tables and start reenacting scenes from black hawk down with my short barreled AR's, or some gangster with the short barreled shot gun, and the wanna be swat team member with a suppressed AR 15. Not seen many 450 pound SWAT operators...just sayin.

Picking up a firearm at a gun show is one thing but acting like your 8 years old and playing war at the gun show will get you yelled at by a easily angered small business owner.

I am not overly concerned with people pointing MY guns at me at the gun shows because I zip time handguns through the bore so no ammunition can find its way in there, bolt guns have bolts pulled out and stored in a case (also keeps thieves from stealing stuff at night) and other rifles are either tied so action will not close or in case of AR style guns where bolt can be pulled it is.

Some of the other dealers do scare all that is holy out of me, especially the ones that show up with ammo in guns and they are unloading it as they put their price tags on them the morning.

22-rimfire
July 8, 2013, 01:53 AM
I would have to be there and "feel it", but I might react in a number of ways; ignore it, make a big scene, or casually mention to the store that the customers should not be pointing firearms at people loaded or unloaded.

But someone pointing a weapon at me really bugs me; firearm or even bow and arrow. When I pick up a weapon in a store, gun show or where ever, I make a special point of not pointing the gun anywhere other than way above anything that another person might construe as "at the", but there are still people who will react.

303tom
July 8, 2013, 10:04 AM
When some idiot says (check out my new toy) when showing you his new firearm !.............

morcey2
July 8, 2013, 10:53 AM
When some idiot says (check out my new toy) when showing you his new firearm !.............
I say that all the time, but I have to put "new" in air-quotes because I've yet to buy a new gun other than my AR lower.

And my other pet peeve is people who use air-quotes. And the fact that I've yet to pick up a NEW mosin. Or Remington mosin. or Sestroryetsk (however it's spelled.) Or Chatellerault.

Matt

0to60
July 8, 2013, 01:17 PM
As far as 'high cap weapons in the hands of people who don't have a clue', that's just ridiculous. People have a right to buy and use whatever they choose to. That's why it's called a RIGHT. You don't have to beg permission to exercise a RIGHT.


It is a right, no question about it. But I see more and more unsafe gun handling everywhere I go. I was at a gun store in WI a month ago and the old guy working behind the counter didn't even know how to safety check half the guns he sold.

Any time a hobby becomes increasingly popular, its going to attract people from all over the proficiency/dedication spectrum. THIS particular hobby, however, demands a level of safety and vigilance that is a bit beyond what some casual newcomers are willing to observe.

kbbailey
July 8, 2013, 11:24 PM
THIS particular hobby, however, demands a level of safety and vigilance that is a bit beyond what some casual newcomers are willing to observe.


...very well said.

Davek1977
July 9, 2013, 08:16 AM
If Cabelas scares you, I'd say never go to a gun show. Somewhere in life we have to realize everybody isnt out to kill us. At least to me personally, there is safety on a range and there is safety in a store where the odds are million to one of it being loaded. Embarassing a new person does nothing to support the cause, but risks alienating someone on the fence. Whether it be my 5 yr cousin or my 96 yr old grandmother, I won't make excuses for anyone breaking ANY of the four rules, espcially by pointing a gun at me. There is no excuse to ever point a gun at any living creature you aren't willing to destroy or kill. Making excuses for ignoring basic safety is one of the quickest ways to ensure you won't shoot with me or in my proximity any time soon.

Sighting down a new weapon does NOT need to even happen at the gun counter. You examine the mechanism, the parts, the finish, pertinent numbers, check for flaws.

I believe that grabbing a weapon and sighting it like that is the most newbie move you can make. It shows that you don't care about the above important stuff. And it makes you look like a newbie. You can sight that thing in later when it's loaded.

"Checking your aim" should only happen in a live fire environment. If you do not have the patience to wait and not look like an idiot, don't buy a gun please. This is how negligent discharges happen. In a perfect world, maybe. In the real world, canted sights and whatnot happen, and its easier to avoid buying the gun in the first place than it is to fix issues that could have been caught before the purchase. IMO, checking the alignment of the sights against cant is a must, especially when purchasing certain guns. Its hardly a newbie error, and serves a function. It may seem unimportant, until you get home with a gun with easily visable canted sights

jcwit
July 9, 2013, 08:20 AM
Never pointing a gun at anyone. Not sure how its done now but I remember bayonet training back in the 60's, and yup, we pointed "guns?" at each other.

x_wrench
July 9, 2013, 09:34 AM
i agree with Impureclient, shout loudly, embarrass the cra* out of them, and make them feel like they are the size of ant dung. they have no business pointing any gun at anyone, unless they are defending themselves from an attack. which clearly they were not. they were simply showing extreme ignorance. and need to be corrected. that is one nice thing about getting older, you do not care so much about what others think about you anymore. it makes it a lot easier to yell at someone when you do not worry about what someone else might think.

beatledog7
July 9, 2013, 09:56 AM
i agree with Impureclient, shout loudly, embarrass the cra* out of them, and make them feel like they are the size of ant dung. they have no business pointing any gun at anyone, unless they are defending themselves from an attack. which clearly they were not. they were simply showing extreme ignorance. and need to be corrected. that is one nice thing about getting older, you do not care so much about what others think about you anymore. it makes it a lot easier to yell at someone when you do not worry about what someone else might think.

We need to correct your use of punctuation and capitalization before you are allowed to post here anymore.

Not really, but please give it some thought.

beatledog7
July 9, 2013, 10:25 AM
Once again, I'll try to make this point stick.

It's far more likely to be killed or injured by bad driving than by bad gun handling, yet we are very tolerant of people pointing motor vehicles at us all the time. Yes, there are differences (being able to get out of the way of a car versus a bullet, for one). Cars aren't supposed to hit anything, yet we see far more accidents in which things (people, pedestrians, and other cars) get hit by cars than in which property or people get hit by bullets.

I'm not making light of firearm safety, and I agree it's no fun getting muzzled. But these "bad gun handling" threads are beginning to sound like little more than self-righteous snobbery to me.

I'd like to attend a gun show or a store with some of you guys that are so sure of your impeccable gun handing and attach a magnetic laser pointer to the crown of every gun you pick up so you can see just how many times you muzzle someone or point the gun at something that could cause a ricochet.

There are reasons why "never point a gun at anything you're not wiling to destroy" and similarly worded rules about muzzle direction are accompanied by rules about open actions, verifying that guns are unloaded, and perhaps most importantly, keeping fingers off triggers. In crowded gun-buying venues, it is virtually impossible to conduct routine gun buying activities without at some point having the muzzle at least in the general direction of another person or a ricochet-prone surface. To claim otherwise is....well, try that laser and you'll see.

HoosierQ
July 9, 2013, 11:38 AM
Just about every gun shop I go to has at least one deer head mounted. I aim at that.

Potatohead
July 9, 2013, 11:49 AM
We need to correct your use of punctuation and capitalization before you are allowed to post here anymore.

Not really, but please give it some thought.
All he failed to do was not capitalize...I've seen A LOT worse here.

PS I don't think you are supposed to start a sentence with the word "but". Post #68 Just sayin':)

mljdeckard
July 9, 2013, 12:14 PM
Gun store people are mostly cowards. They are afraid to harsh anyone's mellow by calling them out on safety rules. I have made nemerous complaints to staff and management over it, I even had one go so far as to pull security camera footage, view the offense, and fire people.

beatledog7
July 9, 2013, 12:14 PM
Thanks, Potatohead.

I would caution my students about beginning a sentence with a conjunction, but when one holds an MA in composition he can get away with bending a few rules, as long as he knows he's doing it and has a good reason. It's a whole different thing to do it unwittingly.

HOOfan_1
July 9, 2013, 09:26 PM
Gun store people are mostly cowards. They are afraid to harsh anyone's mellow by calling them out on safety rules.

More likely they think it is bad customer service.

mljdeckard
July 10, 2013, 10:30 AM
So......we are allowed to ignore safety rules if it makes customers happy?

allaroundhunter
July 10, 2013, 10:45 AM
So......we are allowed to ignore safety rules if it makes customers happy?

Not what he said. He said that that is probably why workers don't correct customers, he never said that it is an acceptable excuse.

HOOfan_1
July 10, 2013, 11:23 AM
Not what he said. He said that that is probably why workers don't correct customers, he never said that it is an acceptable excuse.

Exactly....I think that is a more reasonable assumption than "they are cowards".

Anyone who has ever worked retail (especially for a large company, like a big box store) would know that management and regional management is constantly pounding into peoples' heads that they need to please the customer.

I've even been told stories of a place like Nordstroms allowing a customer to return a tire to their store (Nordstroms doesn't even sell tires).

Do you know how conflicting that must be for some of these associates?

They know they can't make a customer angry, but at the same time, they know people shouldn't be pointing guns in unsafe directions.

X-Rap
July 10, 2013, 01:43 PM
Guns are built shipped and stocked like any other item in commerce. At retail it is incumbent upon the counter man to pass and receive a safe weapon to and from a customer. Negligence at that point is inexcusable and the same goes for the customer once they leave the store with their shinny new gun and box of shells.
This is especially true when the gun is accessible to the public in open racks and at gun shows.
To have a gun for sale without restricted access loaded is a crime in my view. These same situations also leave open opportunity for all kinds of mischief as well.

mljdeckard
July 11, 2013, 02:27 PM
So...they have just never HEARD OF the safe handling rules? No way. They are AFRAID of losing sales, so they let them slide. That's COWARDICE.

460Kodiak
July 11, 2013, 02:40 PM
Why don't gun shops, and gun shows just hang a large replica target high up on a far wall to give people something to "site in" on ? They could even include a sign saying "Aim Here" for everyones safety.

Am I the only one that has figured out that there are a bazillion stuffed animals all hung or free standing way up high at every Cabala's Store that you can point an unloaded gun at, check out the sights, and test the trigger, and will not be pointing a gun at a person? Target? There are targets everywhere in those stores.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

So......we are allowed to ignore safety rules if it makes customers happy?


Ignoring safety is never ok. I am consistantly unimpressed with the people who work at these stores. I had a person befind the counter muzzle sweep my face. I just consider it as part of the game now.

X-Rap
July 11, 2013, 03:04 PM
So every guy at the gun counter should be a range officer or firearms instructor? I just don't think they get paid enough to do that. If store policy was to not fire or discipline an employee for correcting an ignorant customer then the discussion would be different but having some irate customer up in the managers face because a $10-$15 an hour clerk corrected them in front of his sweetie is asking to much. If you want to point out cowardice then do it to corporate and store managers who don't make such safety matters company policy.

Potatohead
July 11, 2013, 03:24 PM
Thanks, Potatohead.

I would caution my students about beginning a sentence with a conjunction, but when one holds an MA in composition he can get away with bending a few rules, as long as he knows he's doing it and has a good reason. It's a whole different thing to do it unwittingly.
I hear you. Just pickin at ya

Potatohead
July 11, 2013, 03:27 PM
My pet peeve is ignorant and stupid people having access to firearms. They should test common sense on federal and state gun purchasing forms that way maybe people would try harder in school think about what they're doing and our population would stop becoming more and more stupid as time goes on.
Are you serious?

Potatohead
July 11, 2013, 03:31 PM
[QUOTE=Lex Luthier;9005592]Sighting down a new weapon does NOT need to even happen at the gun counter. You examine the mechanism, the parts, the finish, pertinent numbers, check for flaws.




Pertinent numbers?

stonecutter2
July 11, 2013, 03:36 PM
When some idiot's wife is pointing an AR-15 at you while you are at Cabelas because she wants to look down the sights...and then the idiot repeats his wife's moves.

Off my soapbox.
Okay, haven't seen a clarification (might have missed it).

Did they sweep you, or did they actually hold you on target with the AR?

If they held it on target to me, I'd get very upset. I would definitely ask them why they feel compelled to try a gun by targeting another customer. It's disturbing that anyone would do that.

If they swept me, i'd let it go. It happens in stores. It just does. It freaks me out, but it happens. Anytime someone sweeps someone (or is not focusing on muzzle direction) in my presence, I gently and slowly place my hand on the gun, redirect it to a safe target, then pat the person on the shoulder and shoot em a smile. Everyone deserves to have their safety corrected once in a while in a friendly gesture of firearm comraderie.

No one is above lapses in safety, but they still deserve some respect.

HOOfan_1
July 11, 2013, 04:22 PM
So...they have just never HEARD OF the safe handling rules? No way. They are AFRAID of losing sales, so they let them slide. That's COWARDICE.

People are AFRAID of getting muzzle swept...COWARDICE :rolleyes:

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