Non lethal ways of defending against dogs


PDA






Ford4x4
July 4, 2013, 07:37 PM
In the past few weeks about every other time I've been out with my dog, she has been attacked. She's a very obedient dog and I require her to be submissive to other dogs and people, as this generally de-escalates the situation when someone's unleashed, untrained dog runs up while hiking or biking.

So, the first solution is to avoid the areas with large concentrations of irresponsible people and their dogs. However, I do enjoy mountain biking and hiking, with my dog, and am not willing to quit that. I'm thinking that a good shot of bear or pepper spray would discourage most of these dogs, and maybe pulling it out and instructing the owner to get control of their animal or I'll spray would work. I do carry concealed hiking and biking, but I'm not discharging my weapon unless I feel my life is in danger. However, at $20-40 a can this stuff isn't cheap when I might use a can or two a month, and I figure the cheaper stuff probably isn't worth much. Anyone have any recommendations?

I fully believe this to be an owner problem not a dog problem. Certain breeds have a propensity to attack both animals and people but the owner is responsible for their behavior. If you can't control them, put them on a leash, and if you still can't, don't bring them out in public.

A little back story if anyone cares to read:

However, twice recently she's been attacked. The first time was a guy walking with his unleashed, very large wolf hybrids (the entire county has a leash law). The larger one ran up and attacked, but wasn't really serious about it fortunately. He managed to pull the male off, but the other one was trying to get around me to my dog. The guy takes off up the trail dragging the one dog, with the other one still trying to get at my dog. I was amazed at the irresponsibility of this, and should have called authorities. What if it had been one of the many little kids on the trail?

Second time was this morning, bike riding, my dog following along perfectly, and five little yappy dogs run out and attack. I kind of wish mine had fought back, as she could have broken their necks, but she just stayed with me as I unsuccessfully tried to get on by. The owner came out and beat them all off.

Here's a picture of her. She's an Australian shepherd, border collie, heeler mix. I've had her since she was 8 weeks old. She's fairly small and very lean built, but is a great dog. She can do a 10 mile loop with me on the bike in 45 minutes, tops out at about 28 miles an hour, and is very obedient and smart. I'd love to get her on some cows or sheep.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j128/tweatherford/Dogs/IMG_0771_zps1ffd6b2f.jpg (http://s79.photobucket.com/user/tweatherford/media/Dogs/IMG_0771_zps1ffd6b2f.jpg.html)

If you enjoyed reading about "Non lethal ways of defending against dogs" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
JShirley
July 4, 2013, 08:12 PM
Use a pepper stream. That way, you can get the most distance, with less chance of accidentally spraying your buddy.

If the dog is known to be aggressive and is off-leash, they're already breaking the law. You have no duty to warn- light 'em up. You might be saving that dog's life.

Cute dog.

AJumbo
July 4, 2013, 08:24 PM
I second the pepper stream; it has the added benefit of making the the offending dog's owner miserable in the bargain.

GCBurner
July 4, 2013, 08:28 PM
As dogs tend to reflect their owner's personality, save some pepper spray to fend off the angry owner after you spray his dog.

rjrivero
July 4, 2013, 08:45 PM
Dogs don't seem to like tasers very much either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-Itfr_V424

glistam
July 4, 2013, 10:23 PM
+1 stream pepper spray. And you don't have to get a huge expensive bear spray can. Really it's all the same stuff (unless it's that citronella junk). 4 oz cans are fine as long as it's good name brand stuff.

JohnKSa
July 4, 2013, 10:35 PM
I've had surprisingly good luck with this item, but it obviously has its limitations.

http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Dazer-II-Ultrasonic-Deterrent/dp/B000IBRI2Y

It won't work on deaf dogs and will make your dog uncomfortable too. On the upside, it does no damage at all to the animals and unlike the sprays--all discomfort ends immediately as soon as the dog breaks off the attack and you let up on the button.

For best effect, you need to wait until the dog is very close to maximize the surprise factor. I'd want to have pepper spray (or some other backup strategy) available...

Deltaboy
July 5, 2013, 01:17 AM
Cold Steel Shambok.

alaskanativeson
July 5, 2013, 01:37 AM
I had a Principal who had a pitbull, one of the sweetest and most loving dogs you'd ever know. To people. To other dogs, he saw females as pleasure toys (willing or no) and males as satanic invaders who must be destroyed at any and all costs. This is fairly characteristic of pits.

His solution? A cattle prod. Something similar to this (http://www.amazon.com/Magrath-Livestock-Yellow-Cattle-HotShot/dp/B005R3V770/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_1).

DNS
July 5, 2013, 01:39 AM
Strange as it sounds I've heard from meter readers that umbrellas work great to make an aggresive dog keep its distance.

Open, close, repeat...

scchokedaddy
July 5, 2013, 08:56 AM
Spray bottle, the kind you can adjust to stream, half water half amoniia. Works real good, I use it when bike riding. Doesn't do any damage but learns them quick. I usually let them get close then right to the face.:)

lemaymiami
July 5, 2013, 09:40 AM
I can second the umbrella trick (I've known more than one mailman, the on-foot, door to door kind that relied on them). If you're going to have one make sure it's the folding, compact, kind with a strong spring opening feature. Once deployed you can close and repeat or just keep it as a barrier between you and the aggressive dog.

Years ago the SRT team on my department ran into more than one bad actor that deliberately kept an aggressive dog to slow any entry into where they were doing business. Our team had the entry man as their dedicated "adios fido" guy. We were pretty hard on dogs with a very short barrelled 12 in the entry man's hands. Funny thing, most of the team members were dog owners themselves and didn't look forward to having to kill any dogs - but they did take care of business...

j1
July 5, 2013, 09:47 AM
Sir you have a pretty dog. Buy a can of wasp and bee spray, the kind that shoots a twenty foot stream. That should deter almost any dog and most people. It costs a few dollars per can. Good luck.

allaroundhunter
July 5, 2013, 10:45 AM
Sir you have a pretty dog. Buy a can of wasp and bee spray, the kind that shoots a twenty foot stream. That should deter almost any dog and most people. It costs a few dollars per can. Good luck.

Yes, but it can also be illegal to use for this situation.

OP, stick with some pepper spray.

Kleanbore
July 5, 2013, 11:23 AM
Posted by j1: Buy a can of wasp and bee spray, the kind that shoots a twenty foot stream. That should deter almost any dog and most people. It costs a few dollars per can. Good luck.

Yeah, good luck.

Federal crime. Serious felony, high criminal penalties for misuse (even the death penalty), plus big, big civil penalties levied by the USG if the evidence doss not meet the BARD standard.

No statutory provision for a defense of justification. You are entirely at the mercy of the Assistant US Attorney.

Under state codes, it constitutes the use of deadly force.

Don't even think about it.

JShirley
July 5, 2013, 01:45 PM
The OP is trying to avoid inflicting serious damage, which is ethical and legal. Wasp killer would be neither.

glistam
July 5, 2013, 01:59 PM
Umbrella trick definitely works. Even the meanest angriest dog's reaction is "Whoa where did this giant octogon come from?!"

hso
July 5, 2013, 04:05 PM
Buy a can of wasp and bee spray

No, NO, NO



We live in a rural pocket surrounded by the 'burbs on 3 side (lake on the 4th). The dogs in the neighborhood will cross into each other's property from time to time and play, but when a new one is adopted and not introduced to the others or is a dog aggressive sort we get dog fights. I've broken up a couple of these with pepper spray when the son of my buddy "next door" has gotten some tough dog that comes onto our property and ours get into a tussle with him. Sure it hits all of them, but it stops the fight instantly and I don't have to concentrate it on the face/eyes to make them stop. One big Ousssh! and they're apart and the tough dog is headed home with his tail between his legs and mine are headed to the showers.

jeepnik
July 5, 2013, 07:32 PM
Before pepper spray came about, I would carry a water bottle on by bike loaded with ammonia. One good squirt in the face and they will never chase your bike (likely any bike) again. Just make sure you don't grab the wrong bottle for a drink.:barf:

Deltaboy
July 6, 2013, 12:24 AM
Cattle prods work too.
http://www.wholesalemidwest.com/electric_prods.htm

Cooldill
July 6, 2013, 06:28 AM
Pepper stream.

Like someone else said the owner will have a time with there pup all covered in capsaicin and might think twice about letting there mean dogs get loose.

j1
July 6, 2013, 08:36 AM
I wonder if wasp and bee spray would be illegal if you or your dog were being attacked. The circumstances dictate the actions appropriate to the situation.

PS. This is really an excellent and appropriate post. Thanks for posting. We live in the country on a dirt road and people sometimes do not control their dogs. It is a tense situation as a strange dog runs up to you while you are walking your dog, on a leash. Appropriate and legal defense in my opinion depend on many things.

Kleanbore
July 6, 2013, 09:51 AM
I wonder if wasp and bee spray would be illegal if you or your dog were being attacked. The circumstances dictate the actions appropriate to the situationUnder federal law, it may be used on bees and wasps or in research--period.

JShirley
July 6, 2013, 10:06 AM
j1,

There are a couple of important facets to this question. The one I'll focus on is that the OP is trying to follow the principle of inflicting the least harm possible for his canine friend and he to escape the situation. Insecticide in the eyes is likely to cause permanent damage. If the OP didn't care about that, he would likely be justified in drawing his sidearm and just shooting to protect his dog (depending on laws in his area).

You're right, appropriate and legal can depend on many things. In my experience, a quick blast of OC will dissuade a dog without serious injury to you or the dog.

John

allaroundhunter
July 6, 2013, 10:47 AM
j1, it would come down to proving intent. It isn't common for someone walking their dog to carry wasp spray due to worrying about wasps. If you were to carry it and actually have to go to court for one reason or another after using it and say that you had it to spray unruly dogs, then yes, you very well could be in trouble; even if you were being attacked.

qwert65
July 6, 2013, 10:54 AM
I've used the water and ammonia or even just plain water. That and not showing fear.

Kleanbore
July 6, 2013, 11:06 AM
Posted by allaroundhunter regarding wasp spray: j1, it would come down to proving intent.That would help with a charge for possession for unlawful use, but not one of unlawful use per se. The Federal law simply states that the use for a purpose other than intended simply be "knowing and willful" for it to be unlawful.

Sentryau2
July 6, 2013, 02:31 PM
Stick with pepper spray, you can nearly beat a dog to death and they wont give up. I found that out the hard way was walking and had my kitten some jerk's dog gets loose decided to attack my cat, cat clawed its way up to my shoulder and my steel toe boot met the mutt's skull atleast 8 times and it STILL kept coming at this point i was ready to just brain the darn thing with a rock so I pick up a stick and give a nice good downward swing that would have killed any human dog just falls over stunned and I walk on my way, albeit covered in fairly deep scratches.

Bopleo
July 6, 2013, 02:49 PM
A squirt gun filled with ammonia.

ID-shooting
July 6, 2013, 02:54 PM
You are much nicer than I, barking, aggressive dog. We go the other way. Dog contacts my dog, kid, wife, dogs life is forfeit.

j1
July 7, 2013, 10:38 AM
Gentlemen I thank you for your responses. I never carried the spray but many of the members here have carry permits. I have never shot anyones dog either and would not like to. Maybe it is just a tough situation to face. I once had a pit bull attack my dog and maul him badly enough to need a vet. If I had any weapon I would have defended both me and my dog, and come what may.

j1
July 7, 2013, 11:17 AM
Boy you guys are tough, but trying to save me. Sounds like we will just have to drag out "baby" to save us, cause I will be damned if I am going down twice. My dog cannot afford it. Thank you guys.:)

joecil
July 7, 2013, 01:58 PM
Fill a squirt gun with ammonia and aim for the nose. They won't ever think of running after anything again. A gentler method is to carry a ball of peanut butter toss it to them when they approach. Most dogs can't deal with how it sticks to the inside of their mouth.

simonstough
July 7, 2013, 04:04 PM
i think that the pepper spray would be the best although it might cut your trip short if that beautiful aussie mix catches wind of it, personally i would have just shot the wolf hybrids due to negative personal experience.

jahwarrior
July 10, 2013, 07:35 AM
I think my response would depend on the offending dog.

I've had trouble with irresponsible owners and their dogs on a few occasions. My own dog was a medium sized Jack Russell/beagle mix. For dogs of similar or smaller size, OC spray would be enough. Twice, though, we were confronted by large dogs, a German Shepard and a pit bull mix. I wouldn't count on spray to work on them, and was ready to shoot. Luckily, their owners managed to get them under control before I had to. I gently reminded them that PA has leash laws, and that they were lucky I was in no rush to kill an animal.

So yeah, spray for small dogs, but I wouldn't count on it for large ones. Check your local laws, though; in PA, it's legal to kill nuisance/dangerous animals.

bubba in ca
July 12, 2013, 06:27 PM
I used to walk with a substantial walking stick ( a 5 ft. length of closet rod) and tap it vertically on the ground when a dog looked menacing. They seem to understand that that means you don't want to be messed with.

Another thing that worked when a dimrod said the usual " My dog doesn't bite" was to look at him intently and say "Neither does my lawyer". He grabbed his unleashed dog and left.

BigN
July 12, 2013, 09:26 PM
I saw a pit bull get whacked across the snout by a steel expandable baton last weekend. They're illegal here for all but the police but the pit bull didn't care for it and took off quickly. By the way, it was a policeman that was attacked by the dog and he was the one who whacked it. Looked like a handy little tool to have on your belt. On their second trip to the house, the dog got tazered and they put it in a van and took it away, haven't seen it since.

BLB68
July 14, 2013, 06:59 AM
Straight ammonia is stupid unless you want to do permanent injury, including to yourself, if the wind shifts.

Pepper spray of some form or another is a lot safer bet.

lemaymiami
July 14, 2013, 09:58 AM
Anyone that thinks whacking a pit bull on the nose will deter one.... should re-think that idea long before needing to try it out. The only time I did that (with a catch pole and in uniform...) the animal backed up a step then began to approach again. Just as I was planning on using my sidearm, pitbull #2 showed up and they began circling... I ended up inside my vehicle waiting for Animal Control... Consider myself fortunate the car was available since otherwise it would have been a shooting situation (and lots of paperwork...).

True pits aren't very large (a bit larger than a large beagle) but very determined. Properly raised they're not much of a threat -but far too many aren't properly raised or trained at all...

sidheshooter
July 15, 2013, 05:59 AM
Slightly OT (and I do NOT recommend carry of these) but Nunchaku will work wonders on an aggressive dog. Just so you all know. :evil:

hso
July 15, 2013, 08:57 AM
And end you up in trouble with the police in many jurisdictions.

rbernie
July 15, 2013, 09:20 AM
carry a ball of peanut butter toss it to them when they approachHow does a body go about carrying a ball of peanut butter?

the_skunk
July 15, 2013, 04:07 PM
I got bit and talked at lenght to an animal control officer - she recommended

* A large stick

* Pepper spray

Deltaboy
July 15, 2013, 08:38 PM
In the country we use ammonia in a spray bottle. It worked.

TimboKhan
July 16, 2013, 01:22 AM
No offense folks, but why would you advocate buying wasp spray or making up an ammonia solution when pepper spray is legal, cheap, effective and also usable on human targets should you need it? I understand and appreciate alternative solutions and homemade remedies in some situations, but in this case it just seems silly to me.

I would agree that the real issue is people not following leash laws. My situation is the opposite. My dog is not dog friendly at all. He is alway leashed, but when unleashed dogs come to sniff him, its game on. Luckily he is 13 pounds of terrier terror and so i just pick him up when I see trouble coming, but it aggravates me that those dogs aren't on leash. Your dog may be great, my dog is kind of a jerk.

As a sidenote, he has tried to fight any dog he sees including wolfhounds, and also horses, cows, and as of a couple of days ago a camel. Friendliest little jerk in the world to adults and kids (including babies) but not at all tolerant of other beasts. Whatever, he is my buddy and I love him just the way he is.

Here is a picture of him. His name is Auto.

sent from my Galaxy Note II.

Deltaboy
July 16, 2013, 09:19 AM
No offense folks, but why would you advocate buying wasp spray or making up an ammonia solution when pepper spray is legal, cheap, effective and also usable on human targets should you need it? I understand and appreciate alternative solutions and homemade remedies in some situations, but in this case it just seems silly to me.

I would agree that the real issue is people not following leash laws. My situation is the opposite. My dog is not dog friendly at all. He is alway leashed, but when unleashed dogs come to sniff him, its game on. Luckily he is 13 pounds of terrier terror and so i just pick him up when I see trouble coming, but it aggravates me that those dogs aren't on leash. Your dog may be great, my dog is kind of a jerk.

As a sidenote, he has tried to fight any dog he sees including wolfhounds, and also horses, cows, and as of a couple of days ago a camel. Friendliest little jerk in the world to adults and kids (including babies) but not at all tolerant of other beasts. Whatever, he is my buddy and I love him just the way he is.

Here is a picture of him. His name is Auto.

sent from my Galaxy Note II.
I promote homemade cause it is cheaper and there are areas here in the South you can't just walk in and get pepper spray. Cute loveable dog too.

hso
July 16, 2013, 01:17 PM
BUT you can order it in from anywhere and as long as it is legal to carry in your state you shouldn't have any problems using it for animal control.


a camel
:scrutiny:

TimboKhan
July 16, 2013, 07:47 PM
The nursing home across the street from where I live had camels out for the folks to look at and pet. When he walked by with Vickie she said he turned apoplectic with doggie rage and was doing everything he could to get away from her so he could attack them.


sent from my Galaxy Note II.

glistam
July 17, 2013, 11:06 AM
Timbo, one of mine gets like that two. 12 pounds and only three legs, loves people, but has the rage when meeting any other dog (horses too). Even tried to pick a fight with a pit bull once, though said pit was properly leashed and a bit...derp. Just sat there smiling with his tongue out and eyes crossed while mine's barking up a storm.

Ole Coot
July 17, 2013, 09:22 PM
As an old telephone splicer for over 30yrs I've had many dogs want to chew on me especially with a tool belt on. I would never use pepper spray. Pepper spray makes the dog more aggressive and I've seen one sprayed, run into the yard and some little kid wrap their arms around it. People don't take kindly to kids with pepper spray on them. I used the old MSA Wasp Stopper. Worked very well, no lasting effects and no kiddies harmed.

JShirley
July 18, 2013, 12:25 PM
I've seen a lot of people and a few dogs pepper sprayed. I've never seen OC make anything "more aggressive". I love dogs, but if people don't want their dogs sprayed, they should follow the law and keep them leashed.

The product you suggest is illegal to use in the manner you describe, and not a good choice for snuggling up to children, either. :rolleyes:

John

PabloJ
July 18, 2013, 01:55 PM
Once walking at dusk I saved myself with beam from Surefire x300. Not sure how effective it truly is but my grandfather said wolves roaming certain parts of Eastern European countryside shortly after WWII were afraid of light. These were the kind that fed on human remains so
probably very aggressive and dangerous critters.

craftsman
July 19, 2013, 01:24 PM
Jock Elliot (upstate NY) has a .50 cal. 3 ft. blowgun, wood encased to look like a walking stick. He keeps a few glass marbles in his pocket (yes, they work like slingshot ammo). Said he's had to use it a few times up where he lives - works well.

22-rimfire
July 21, 2013, 12:43 PM
I see a pit or similar dog (usually a pit mix), I get ready for just about any possibilty. That includes a pit inside someone's house. I don't trust those dogs no matter how "friendly" the owner claims they are. I suspect they view me as "aggressive" versus passive as I don't fear them. And I will kill one if I have to.... (but not inside someone's house; I just leave.)

I know to keep my distance from Doberman's if they are in a car or inside a fenced yard. They are very territorial.

Non-lethal defense... pepper spray. I have just started to see it in stores in my area.

WoodchuckAssassin
July 21, 2013, 01:14 PM
Speak softly and carry a BIG STICK.

sgt127
July 21, 2013, 03:59 PM
If we knew we were going to hit a dope house with dogs, I carried a 5 lb CO2 fire extinguisher. As we went by, I hosed them and then dropped it and we made entry. It is extremely effective. And, they stayed out of our business until we were done. However, carrying around a 5 lb cylinder of CO2 is hardly practical except from the van to the front door.

I've seen pepper spray used often. Very effective. Usually. If it was truly an aggressive dog though, you need deadly force to back it up.

I've got friends who lived in sketchy areas outside of the US. They say a small round squirt bottle of Real Lemon juice is highly effective against threats 2 and 4 legged. And, legal anywhere. Easy to palm in your hand. Good range.

zdc1775
July 21, 2013, 08:09 PM
I can vouch for the lemon juice and the ammonia. We have used them both very diluted to train stuburn dogs.

Also lemon juice also has the side effect of killing fleas.

BLB68
July 28, 2013, 09:28 PM
Lemon juice is also good for getting a large constrictor to let go.

If you enjoyed reading about "Non lethal ways of defending against dogs" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!