I volunteered to get shot by Simunitions


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esheato
March 20, 2004, 12:44 AM
Alright...this might prove my lack of intelligence, but I volunteered to get shot by some Simunitions.

The local Sheriff's Dept is retrofitting some SIG P226's for the Simunitions barrels for training. My gunsmith had the guns, barrels and some spare ammo to test everything.

Without thinking, I offered to let him shoot me with them. Just to see what it's like.

He countered with, "Sure, come by next week and I'll shoot a few at ya."

:what: :banghead:

I'm starting to think that this wasn't a good idea. Especially since I've seen Skunk's pic where he caught one in the hand. I'm hoping I can do it facing him with a piece of plexiglass in front of my face so I can see what it looks like without getting shot in the face.

Anybody else ever been hit by Simunitions?

Ed

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strambo
March 20, 2004, 01:16 AM
Nope, but I'm sure they hurt more than paintballs due to smaller surface area. At least wear a sweatshirt or two and full face protection. Your not crazy, I'd do it! OK maybe we're crazy:p Since he has more than one, see if he's game for a little force on force?:D

PUMC_TomG
March 20, 2004, 01:17 AM
I haven't been shot with it yet.. but from the training videos I've witnessed with people using it - they typically use paintball masks and goggles and wear heavy sweatshirts and turtlenecks.... not something you want to hit your bare skin or a lightly covered area.

My Marine buddies used it in urban combat training and just wore normal cammies.... some small welts but nothing too bad.

geegee
March 20, 2004, 01:24 AM
I zapped myself with a stun gun once, for tesing purposes. I'd say what you're doing is a few steps up the scale of "self testing." :eek: geegee

Jeff White
March 20, 2004, 01:43 AM
WEar long sleeves, the pellets will break the skin. Last time we used simunitions was in active shooter training. Drew blood on another officer who woudln't wear long sleeves. It almost always happens. Gloves aren't a bad idea either.

Jeff

CannibalCrowley
March 20, 2004, 02:09 AM
They aren't too bad as long as they don't hit bare skin. And of course really close range shots tend to bring up welts. They're fun but it's frustrating when small leaves and branches deflect the pellets.

Skunkabilly
March 20, 2004, 02:34 AM
Bring a cup. ;)

esheato
March 20, 2004, 03:14 AM
Nope, but I'm sure they hurt more than paintballs due to smaller surface area. At least wear a sweatshirt or two and full face protection.
I was assuming the same thing about the smaller surface area. Planning on the sweatshirt.
I zapped myself with a stun gun once, for tesing purposes.
You couldn't pay me to do it with a stun gun...You're a braver man than I.
Bring a cup.
Plannning on that too. Haha.

Ed

sm
March 20, 2004, 03:14 AM
Anybody else ever been hit by Simunitions?
NO - not exactly

We were using rubber bullets fired by primer only out of revolvers. Goes back a few years of course. Agree on using eye, ear protection, long sleeves is good.

I learned "why" watch six is preached...repeatedly on first "run through" :D

Even though my head and face protection was a motorcyle helment with face shield...a "thwack" to the back of your head will get your attention...so will the 2nd, the third...

Mock house / apt bldg setting we ran through, Model 10 and 19s the guns, and additional blank rds ( primer only) no wads from shotguns...this stuff gets the blood a pumpin'.

I don't care what the "normal" .729 bore diameter is "supposed" look like...face a 12 ga muzzle when it fires, primer only...that muzzle is HUGE!

I can honestly say I prefer the "view" of a shotgun / pistol from user standpoint...especially the shotgun. [ shiver]

esheato
March 20, 2004, 03:41 AM
Mock house / apt bldg setting we ran through, Model 10 and 19s the guns, and additional blank rds ( primer only) no wads from shotguns...this stuff gets the blood a pumpin'.
Oh I'm aware. I'm going to hijack my own thread for a few here. ;) Grab a beer fellas, it's story time.

Many, many years ago, (1997) I got put into the USAF version of the brig. Thirty days for drinking underage and some other unmentionables (named Kim and Jennifer....thats for another time though).

Anyway, they let me out a day early if I would participate in a MP exercise. Of course I agreed to participate. I wanted to graduate the training school and start what was left of my career.

I ended up being the aggressor while a whole squadron of military police attempted to defend a line and a trench. Flares got tripped, I was repeatedly verbally challenged, then all H-E-double hockey sticks broke loose.

The tat-tat-tat of the M-16's, and the booming of the M-60 and I took off. I didn't care where I ran, but I didn't stop until I was several miles away. I ended up running through several of the infamous Texas prickly pear, yet I didn't slow down a bit. They finally located me a few hours later, hiding in some grass bushes down by the end of the flightline...

So yes...I'm aware what's it's like to be shot at. Although it was only blanks, it's something I'll never forget.

Ed

I'll understand if the thread is closed, but I figure you guys would enjoy it. :p

sm
March 20, 2004, 03:52 AM
If your going to Hijack your own thread...Kim and Jennifer are much better reasons...especially if the thread gets closed? :)

Ok...So having only fired a few simunitions rds - how do they differ from the old rubber bullets? Besides the semi -auto capability , more accurate and range wise...more possible damage /injury to surroundings and shooter?

What are the FPS? I honestly don't know, I shot a few rds just for fun at a teddy.

Travis McGee
March 20, 2004, 03:59 AM
Simunitions fire a little white nylon plastic case that has a splotch of orange paint in them. In my day we used wax bullets out of revolvers, with a large pistol primer for propellant. Great for night time building search and clearing training! You learn a lot, fast, and it's fun as hell. Those paraffin slugs do smart if they hit bare skin! You can't beat it for fun cheap night training. Just look for the paraffin sheets they sell at hobby stores for making candles. It comes in sheets about 1/2 inch thick, just use your primed shells as "cookie cutters" and you're all set to fire "wax wadcutters" at your buddies. Give it a try, it's a blast!

http://matthewbracken.web.aplus.net/bookcover.jpg

esheato
March 20, 2004, 04:01 AM
Simunitions (http://www.simunition.com)

From their webpage: These patented reduced-energy, non-lethal and non-toxic cartridges leave a detergent-based, water-soluble colour marking compound. These visible impacts allow accurate assessment of simulated lethality. The cartridges are available in .38 and 9 mm calibres (for use in most weapons) and feature tactical accuracy up to 25 feet (7.6 meters). The 5.56 mm calibre is currently available only to military. The 5.56 mm is tactically accurate and ballistically matched with ball cartridges to 100 feet (30 meters). No special ballistic facilities are required. They meet the need for a force-on-force and man-to-man training system that is realistic, effective, inexpensive, adaptable and fully portable.

From the spec sheet I briefly glanced at today, I believe the velocity is around 350-420 FPS.

Other than that, I don't know too much about 'em. I guess I'll find out next week. I saw that my gunsmith had some and volunteered my body as a backstop.

Ed

sm
March 20, 2004, 04:07 AM
Now that you mention it I have seen the wax "wadcutters". We used the rubber bullets from Speer. I "know" the rubber ones "smart" and raise a whelp...yea well got busy watching six...fella at 9 got me good. I was young and asked to "tag" along with some old mentors...I really learned a lot and remember some valuable lessons...them that "thwack" tend to do that. ;)

I need to do this again...good input and I'm learning...thanks all.

Travis McGee
March 20, 2004, 04:27 AM
sm:
I learned a lot of valuable lessons from wax bullet training at night in warehouses and that type of place. Such as: the man who's moving almost always gets shot by the man who's hiding. This became obvious so fast, that everybody would just hide, and nothing would happen, so we had to make rules to force contact, such as designating a searcher, and giving him a time limit, and then switching roles.

Also, we learned that no matter who shoots first, the shooter usually gets shot in a return volley. Once you fire, your muzzle flashes become a "bullet magnet" as the other guy spins and blasts away. This is even true if you catch somebody dead from behind, (his 6). He'll still spin and fire, even if he's shot. The big lesson was always try to move to cover before shooting, even when you have your adversary dead to rights in an ambush. Get cover, or get shot on the return volley.

You can't beat wax bullet training for the cost, if you already have revolvers. (Who doesn't?) We're talking pennies a round, no reloading gear needed, just something to push out the old primers and squeeze new ones in.

Of course, anytime you're using real firearms for training, you have to be 1,000% careful about segregating out your live ammo!!!! You must do a good personal shakedown, to ensure ONLY wax bullet ammo in the CQB area.

sm
March 20, 2004, 04:54 AM
Excellent post Sir! Chocked full of great advice!

Being the new guy, I was briefed and given a heads up by my mentors my first time out. Nobody wanted to move just like you posted. Guess whom drew short straw to be the searcher...good guess.

Yep had the "perp" dead to rights, I shot first and he did shoot back, though he missed. THEN I ran only to run to far for cover and allowed the other two perps to bust me in the back of the head...I "never thought" anyone would hide behind that doorway I had not checked. Wrong!

I was then able to better understand the debrief pointing out all my mistakes. I was able to use my mistakes when I became the perp. I learned from being the perp.

I learned just watching the others. Yes the "return volley" and "shoot from cover" is advice to live by.

Good advice that needed to be said ...needs to be repeated and ingrained.

Thanks.

Preacherman
March 20, 2004, 10:52 AM
Last time I did the "fun house" at a Federal facility I visit, they offered to let me be the "designated searcher" in an Airsoft drill. This was fun... they obviously thought a chaplain wouldn't have the faintest idea of what to do, and wanted to have some fun at my expense. However, 18 years of civil warfare and unrest, coupled with lots of training over here, had taught me more than they realized - first among the lessons being Clint Smith's dogma, "Always cheat - always win!". So, I had a private word with the armorer, and - in exchange for a bottle of bourbon - obtained from him a couple of the "sting grenades" used in prison disturbances. These are genuine grenades, but instead of shrapnel, they fire out a spray of rubber balls, that sting but don't inflict permanent injury.

So, come the "house-clearing", I sauntered in as if I hadn't the faintest idea what was going on, and promptly threw a sting grenade into the far corner, while ducking for cover myself. When it went off, there were screams of "Ouch!", "***?", etc., and the ambush team jumped out from behind cover - whereupon I opened up on them from cover with my Airsoft pistol. Score: Chaplain 5, team 0, and much gloating from yours truly... :D

FedDC
March 20, 2004, 05:16 PM
Be careful with Simunition. THere have been quite a few shootings where the incorrect guns and ammo lead to a death from real bullets. My agency had a guy shoot another agent with a live 9mm round during simunition training.

Simunition also makes real live ammo and it is also marked simunition. Those that are not familiar with the product have gottne the two confused with death as the result.

Be SURE to inspect every round that goes into the gun and make sure that the smaller barrel is installed on the sim guns. The sim guns must be marked as such and NO live ammo or weapons can ever be allowed near the sim training site.

Plus, Simunition is not very non LE friendly. That is why I like airsoft..

illuminatus99
March 20, 2004, 06:12 PM
could be worse, a good friend of mine who was in the infantry told me once that while he was in the hospital to get his knee checked out a small group of rangers came in with huge bruises all over their torsos, turns out they had snuck out to the artillery range at night and put on some vests and shot each other with their 9mms. ouch.

Sven
March 20, 2004, 07:53 PM
Preacherman that story is awesome!

Justin
March 20, 2004, 09:13 PM
Rob once shot me with a Simunitions round to see what it felt like. I didn't really feel anything. However I was wearing two shirts and a light coat at the time.

Distance was about 20ish feet.

I'm sure that if I had been wearing fewer layers of clothing it would've smarted.

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