Musings about "price gouging"


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Guy B. Meredith
July 7, 2013, 04:57 AM
I dropped in on a local vendor that usually has outstanding prices on reloading components. He was shelving primers and when I asked about the Winchester SP I use he came up with a box of 1000 for $50!!!! Previously his price had been less than half that.

When I remarked about the price he let slip that his usual price from his supplier was $15 per 1000 and is now $35 per 1000.

I am not going to buy primers at that cost, but I began thinking about his expenses. He is going to get caught holding some of the primers he's purchased at $35 as the market goes down. It makes sense to charge a heavy profit to cover losses that are sure to come when the prices do go below $35/1000.

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Aaron1100us
July 7, 2013, 06:16 AM
I have a friend in the buisness. Costs from suppliers have not risen. Except .22lr. It's all the dealers that are charging crazy prices. They charge crazy prices because they know people will pay.

Sent from my SCH-R760 using Tapatalk 2

guyfromohio
July 7, 2013, 07:04 AM
I think it will subside soon

RetiredUSNChief
July 7, 2013, 08:11 AM
I am not going to buy primers at that cost, but I began thinking about his expenses. He is going to get caught holding some of the primers he's purchased at $35 as the market goes down. It makes sense to charge a heavy profit to cover losses that are sure to come when the prices do go below $35/1000.

Hmmmm...

You might want to rethink what constitutes a "heavy profit" with the perspective of a person who runs a business and has to make payments on a lease, insurance, employees, and the personal time it takes to run and stock that business.

At the end of the day, "profits" are what is left over after paying all the expenses of running the business...not the dollar difference between his wholesale purchases and retail sales.

;)

OldMac
July 7, 2013, 11:39 AM
In other words,
Profit = Retail Sales Price - Wholesale Purchase Price - Overhead. If the volume of sales is down because of supply constriction, then overhead is higher per item since rent, salary, etc dont change.

DoubleMag
July 7, 2013, 11:44 AM
I think it will subside soon
The last time my friends said that was 4 months ago. They said it'd subside in 4 months:(

Potatohead
July 7, 2013, 11:51 AM
I have a friend in the buisness. Costs from suppliers have not risen. Except .22lr. It's all the dealers that are charging crazy prices. They charge crazy prices because they know people will pay.

Sent from my SCH-R760 using Tapatalk 2
Can you really say that with certainty when you only have one "friend" in the biz?

Guy B. Meredith
July 7, 2013, 11:54 AM
I understand business, paying expenses, etc., but the percent that is profit now is considerably higher than previous per the numbers I was given. Just happy that profit margin in this business isn't the same as the apparel industry.

mdauben
July 7, 2013, 11:55 AM
They charge crazy prices because they know people will pay.
This.

Its easy, and understandable, to get mad at retailers and resellers for "gouging" or "profiteering" but the truth is, if there were's people stupid enough to pay these prices, they wouldn't be charging them. :fire:

Potatohead
July 7, 2013, 12:00 PM
Hmmmm...

You might want to rethink what constitutes a "heavy profit" with the perspective of a person who runs a business and has to make payments on a lease, insurance, employees, and the personal time it takes to run and stock that business.

At the end of the day, "profits" are what is left over after paying all the expenses of running the business...not the dollar difference between his wholesale purchases and retail sales.

;)
Good point Retired! My family has been running a business here in town since 1947 and it amazes me that lots of customers think you're automatically "rich" because you own a business and don't need to make a profit. Believe me when I say that small business owners have big headaches.-lots and lots of bills and more and more red tape every year. Not to mention labor and trying to stay relevant in your market.

targetshooter22
July 7, 2013, 12:05 PM
Yeah, that's a tough one. To some extent, retailers need to speculate a little. Generally, they add a percentage, but they also need to think about what their supplier will charge for the next one they buy (of whatever). So if they *think* the manufacturer and/or distributor might be going for a price increase, they need to pass that on *before* it really happens, else they sell a unit, think they made money, only to learn that to stock another one for the next customer, they will have lost money on the last sale. It's hard to be a merchant.

At the same time, the people that show up at the retailer at 8:00 AM on delivery day, only to buy up stock and list on GB, I have no time for them. That's close to cartel behavior.

mgkdrgn
July 7, 2013, 01:02 PM
I understand business, paying expenses, etc., but the percent that is profit now is considerably higher than previous per the numbers I was given. Just happy that profit margin in this business isn't the same as the apparel industry.
Your aware, of course, that the "profit" when you buy a pair of socks or underwear is like 100%?

You boycotting socks and underwear too?

BobTheTomato
July 7, 2013, 01:10 PM
If it is sooooooooo cheap from suppliers and the margins are sooooooooooooo huge please open a retail store...........you could make a mint and buy us all free ammo. If you want to read about "price gouging" please read below and learn something.

http://mises.org/daily/1593/

http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=417

Guy B. Meredith
July 7, 2013, 01:15 PM
I'm aware that the apparel/clothing industry routinely marks up 100% to 400%, hence my remark that I'm glad firearms components are not there.

Again I understand markup and am not knocking that. I am justifying the increase in margin as covering the speculative portion of the retailer's cost.

In the case of the primers the standard markup had been 30%. Right now it is 43%, but again I can see that as a wise move to cover the inevitable costs of being caught with primers the retailer bought at $35 when everyone else is selling at the $15 price.

And, yes, I am very picky about (boycott) clothing prices. Just check out the frayed pant legs, shrunk up shirts from too many washes, etc. Goodwill is your friend.

oneounceload
July 7, 2013, 01:28 PM
I understand business, paying expenses, etc., but the percent that is profit now is considerably higher than previous per the numbers I was given. Just happy that profit margin in this business isn't the same as the apparel industry.
So what?

If you do not like his prices, do not go there. I will bet his taxes and insurances have gone up (remember, Obamacare has passed, my wife's insurance has gone up 30% per year to cover something that hasn't gone into effect yet). municipalities have all raised taxes to fund services, shipping costs have gone up. manufacturers in the gun and ammo business typically raise their prices in late Spring, and any one of host of other reasons can necessitate his prices going up. If folks think prices will never go up, and anyone who raises them is a gouger, then they really need to rethink this hobby called shooting - it COSTS MONEY to do this.

dogtown tom
July 7, 2013, 01:48 PM
Aaron1100us I have a friend in the buisness. Costs from suppliers have not risen. Except .22lr. It's all the dealers that are charging crazy prices. They charge crazy prices because they know people will pay.

So did you ask your "friend in the business" how many pallets of ammunition he received at prepanic prices?:rolleyes:

It disturbs me that folks don't have the slightest clue about simple economics:

1. Suppliers price doesn't matter if they don't have that item in stock.
2. Dealers who sell at summer 2012 retail price will soon find they have nothing left to sell.
3. Same dealers will then discover that they can't replace what just sold.
4. "Markup" is not understood by nearly 99% of the firearms community. A dealer who marks up his inventory based on what he paid will soon be out of business............you markup based on your inventory replacement cost.
5. Those that complain the loudest about dealers charging high prices are the guys looking to flip that box of ammo on the internet for a profit. Please explain how it is immoral or unethical for a dealer to maximize his profit, but completely acceptable for a non dealer to do so? :scrutiny:

It makes me shake my head when someone posts "my LGS didn't raise the price of __________ (ammunition, AR's, PMags, etc)" Really? And how much ammo, AR's and Pmags do they still have? Where are they getting their resupply?

My distributors (RSR, Sports South, etc) haven't had squat since the first week of November. Anything that comes in to them is allocated to their larger accounts (I'm small time).

I wonder if there are forums where folks make WAG's about the percent of markup by their dentist, their plumber or appliance store?;)

Guy B. Meredith
July 7, 2013, 01:57 PM
Not sure how many verbal gymnastics I have to do to get tunnel visioned readers to understand that I am making an objective observation and not attacking.

dogtown tom's remark #4 above echo my observations.

If I didn't mention it before, this vendor is my favorite as they have consistently had the best prices around. If someone can make a decent living by offering me lower prices I will shop there.

Up until two years ago I belonged to a club that sold components at 6% over invoice. Guess where I shopped?

On the other hand, the club in this area makes a point of not competing with local vendors but is a few cents under my favorite commercial vendor. The cost of gas traveling to the club makes the local vendor the hands down choice if I am not already at the club.

theautobahn
July 7, 2013, 02:02 PM
I have a friend in the business. Costs from suppliers have not risen. Except .22lr. It's all the dealers that are charging crazy prices. They charge crazy prices because they know people will pay.

I have a friend in the business as well. I've seen his invoices, and can tell you that distributor prices definitely went up.

4. "Markup" is not understood by nearly 99% of the firearms community. A dealer who marks up his inventory based on what he paid will soon be out of business............you markup based on your inventory replacement cost.

And so everyone is clear, most dealers treat this as a two way street. My same friend has pmags for sale at less than dealer cost - he has to, because the cost of new ones is less and he needs to sell them that low to be competitive.

redneck2
July 7, 2013, 02:03 PM
One thing we're gonna have to take into account are lead and brass prices. I know scrap lead is fifty five cents a pound, maybe twice what it was a few years ago.

jim243
July 7, 2013, 02:10 PM
At the end of the day, "profits" are what is left over after paying all the expenses of running the business...not the dollar difference between his wholesale purchases and retail sales.

True, but many companies have found out the hard way that profit is not as important as customer satisfaction and repeat business. Some times on certain products, you have to sell them at cost as a loss leader. Otherwise the customer goes elsewhere. Do you realize what your cost is to get a customer in your door??

Jim

You can make up your profits on other items. The retailer in this case was just stupid.

Potatohead
July 7, 2013, 04:44 PM
One reason we have to go up on price if the market is moving up but we aren't yet paying the higher prices is because when the market drops, we have to drop with it, no matter what we paid for the product on hand. So, we have to watch our backsides, we can take a real beating when the market drops, and we never know how bad of a beating we're going to take. It's only smart to make money where you can, especially in volatile markets.

****I see now that this was mentioned previously*******

Guy B. Meredith
July 7, 2013, 05:09 PM
Potatohead is saying exactly what I was trying to get across.

HOWEVER. I MADE A MISTAKE AND THINGS ARE CURIOUSER. :what:

In my original figures I used a non panic retail price that is actually wrong--it probably comes from what I used to expect when I was competing and purchasing by the 5000 cartons.

IN ACTUALITY, IT APPEARS THE MARGIN MY VENDOR IS TAKING ON PANIC PRICES IS * lower * THAN ON STANDARD PRICES.

So my last purchase was actually $29.95 and he mentioned supplier cost of $15/1000. Now the panic retail price is $50/1000 and supplier price is $35/1000. Assuming I did take good notes on the supplier price that means my vendor's non panic margin is 100% and the panic margin 43%.

RetiredUSNChief
July 7, 2013, 05:13 PM
True, but many companies have found out the hard way that profit is not as important as customer satisfaction and repeat business. Some times on certain products, you have to sell them at cost as a loss leader. Otherwise the customer goes elsewhere. Do you realize what your cost is to get a customer in your door??

Jim

You can make up your profits on other items. The retailer in this case was just stupid.

An easy statement to make, not knowing the details behind this particular retailer's business.

Sales tactics has long been a lure for customers, yes...but without knowing the details behind what inventory he carries, what his sources are, and the market statistics for the area his business is in, it's kind of ludicrous to say what you just did. If his diversity in inventory is low, for example, then he has far less leeway to make such sales...every item counts just to stay afloat.

The man doesn't sound like a "company", with the implied "big business model". LGS implies "small business", which has quite different dynamics.

Lots of things go into customer satisfaction and repeat business.

oneounceload
July 7, 2013, 07:07 PM
True, but many companies have found out the hard way that profit is not as important as customer satisfaction and repeat business. Some times on certain products, you have to sell them at cost as a loss leader. Otherwise the customer goes elsewhere. Do you realize what your cost is to get a customer in your door??

Jim

You can make up your profits on other items. The retailer in this case was just stupid.



That works well - IF you are Walmart, Target, or Home Depot - most small mom and pop shops cannot afford to carry merchandise they cannot make their margins on.

Maybe you should open your own retail store and sell goods at a loss to get customers in the door - then come back in a year and tell us how well you are doing. Small shops (and I owned one in a different genre) only put stuff on sale that doesn't move fast enough - inventory turns and margins drive the business - plain and simple

Potatohead
July 7, 2013, 08:09 PM
Small shops (and I owned one in a different genre) only put stuff on sale that doesn't move fast enough

Blanket statement. Not entirely true. You sometimes have to match the big boys' prices on some items. No matter how fast it moves. I do see your point though.

Potatohead
July 7, 2013, 08:12 PM
Some times on certain products, you have to sell them at cost

Yes but try not to make to much of a habit out of that....

oneounceload
July 7, 2013, 08:47 PM
IBlanket statement. Not entirely true. You sometimes have to match the big boys' prices on some items. No matter how fast it moves. I do see your point though.

Not totally, because what you see happen is that the small shop will carry limited stock of certain things, - say holsters - but because they do that, they will pay a higher per unit cost because they are also not stocking the loss leaders or dogs. many makers of products - like Browning - will say to get a certain wholesale price level, you have to buy not only a certain amount of guns, but also a particular assortment - which might include some dogs that just don't work where you live, but if you do not go for the "package" you pay higher unit costs - this leads to higher retail costs for small stores.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
July 7, 2013, 08:47 PM
It looks like prices are really starting to come down but there are still some places charging extremely high prices. For example http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=14746&sort=&filter_id=&instock=1 I've emailed them and asked me to take my name out of their system as I won't be doing business with them anymore. I can see keeping your profit margin up but 31 dollars for Tula 9mm is just retarded.

AABEN
July 7, 2013, 09:01 PM
I had a gun shop and 40% over my cost was how I priced all most every thing. That payed the bills and pocket money. I was retired coal miner. So his price is close.

Prince Yamato
July 8, 2013, 12:47 AM
Distributor prices have not been raised by a significant amount. If percentage markup is kept constant, the price increase should only be $1-3 increase on ammo.

Here's what's been happening in a nutshell:

1) many people panicked and there was a run on guns and ammo. That run was greater than in 2008, but not enough to have depleted supplies of guns and ammo in and of itself.

2) the profiteers from 2008 figured out the "game" and bought up lots of ammo- they're the main reason the shelves have been bare for so long. They resell at ridiculous prices.

In with them, I'll lump the dealers that are jacking up prices and blaming the distributors- the distributors aren't raising prices.

It's greed, pure and simple.

3) on top of depleting existing stocks, some dealers placed psychotically large orders for (example) 10 million rounds from distributors, hoping to cash in on the panic. Distributors can't meet that demand because manufacturers aren't set up for that.

The reason the shelves are/were empty had less to do with a run on guns than it had to do with greed.

dogtown tom
July 8, 2013, 01:53 AM
Prince Yamato Distributor prices have not been raised by a significant amount.
How do you know? Are you a dealer and privy to distributor prices?


1) many people panicked and there was a run on guns and ammo. That run was greater than in 2008, but not enough to have depleted supplies of guns and ammo in and of itself.
Complete nonsense. What part of "Not in stock" do you not get? The panic this time was much greater than 2008-09.




2) the profiteers from 2008 figured out the "game" and bought up lots of ammo- they're the main reason the shelves have been bare for so long. They resell at ridiculous prices.
Those profiteers.........BRAVO to them. Anyone who didn't foresee the panic of 2012-13 didn't learn a danged thing from 2008-09.



In with them, I'll lump the dealers that are jacking up prices and blaming the distributors- the distributors aren't raising prices.
It's greed, pure and simple.
Baloney. You confuse greed with staying in business. You don't know jack squat about dealers, distributors or capitalism.
You call it greed..........I call it business survival. And BTW, I don't retail ammunition or guns.




3) on top of depleting existing stocks, some dealers placed psychotically large orders for (example) 10 million rounds from distributors, hoping to cash in on the panic. Distributors can't meet that demand because manufacturers aren't set up for that.
Really? Where did you get this gem?:scrutiny:
A dealer could place an order for eleventy quatrillion rounds of ammunition and the distributor doesn't have to accept it. When many dealers place large orders the distributor will allocate their inventory.........no one gets it all. Another example of someone who doesn't know squat about the firearms business.



The reason the shelves are/were empty had less to do with a run on guns than it had to do with greed.
Wrong again.
Folks remember 2008-09 and bought everything they could in anticiption of a gun ban. heck there were posts on many gun forums during the last four years about Obama bamning the sale of ammunition. No one wated to get caught short like they did four years earlier.

It's only greed when you aren't the guy selling the last box of ammo isn't it?;)

Alamo Ammo out of San Antonio was pricing their 500 round bricks of Federal Champion at $199 since January. Please explain how it is greed if NO ONE BOUGHT ANY.



.

Black Butte
July 8, 2013, 03:09 AM
In the case of the primers the standard markup had been 30%. Right now it is 43%.

It's not only about the percent markup, you also have to consider the volume of sales. Retailers have bills to pay just like you. If he's only moving half the usual amount of merchandise, then he's losing money -- even at the markup you indicate.

ljnowell
July 8, 2013, 04:17 AM
I would ask him who his supplier is. My LGS has maintained a good inventory and when I asked him about it, in reference to the other places much higher prices, he told me that distributors have not raised prices at all through this, there just isnt as much inventory. He told me that he is still paying the same price for primers and powder he was last October, his words were near exactly "Any dealer that says the prices came up from the distributor is a liar."

Now, different places use different distributors, but most of them in my area use the same place. The others all claim their prices went up, obviously not true.

Constrictor
July 8, 2013, 10:41 AM
there has been no price gouging going on. as long as there are many sources of these products, its impossible for gouging to happen. definition wise.

Potatohead
July 8, 2013, 11:32 AM
Yamato, you don't think the run was "big enough to deplete supplies in and of itself"?
Okey dokey....whatever you say.

Agsalaska
July 8, 2013, 12:37 PM
I have fought this battle over and over again on this sight and others. There is no price gouging in ammo. It does not exist. In fact it is not possible to have such an environment for items that are not essential goods. And, from an economics point of view, ammo is not an essential good.

That being said, there has certainly been a shock to the system. Surges in demand can create wild variations in markets, especially to market price. There has been a surge in demand. The big box retailers are late in increasing prices to match demand therfore acting as inventory distributors for those that will. When that happens it creates a huge gap between minimum and maximum purchase prices. This will continue until either the retailers finally get there heads out of their asses and raise prices or deman drops off. My guess is the major retailers will eventually raise their prices to the average retail price taking the incentive away from the resellers and making inventory more widespread.

To the OP, it is not at all uncommon for manufacturers and suppliers to be the last to adjust pricing to meet current market demand. That goes both ways. When markets crash they are still last. That is why it is extremely important for businesses to take advantage of opportunities with maximum demand before their costs increase.

jcwit
July 8, 2013, 12:46 PM
I have fought this battle over and over again on this sight and others. There is no price gouging in ammo. It does not exist. In fact it is not possible to have such an environment for items that are not essential goods. And, from an economics point of view, ammo is not an essential good.

That being said, there has certainly been a shock to the system. Surges in demand can create wild variations in markets, especially to market price. There has been a surge in demand. The big box retailers are late in increasing prices to match demand therfore acting as inventory distributors for those that will. When that happens it creates a huge gap between minimum and maximum purchase prices. This will continue until either the retailers finally get there heads out of their asses and raise prices or deman drops off. My guess is the major retailers will eventually raise their prices to the average retail price taking the incentive away from the resellers and making inventory more widespread.

To the OP, it is not at all uncommon for manufacturers and suppliers to be the last to adjust pricing to meet current market demand. That goes both ways. When markets crash they are still last. That is why it is extremely important for businesses to take advantage of opportunities with maximum demand before their costs increase.

So folks buying up all the .22 ammo at retail outlets for $20--$30 bucks a brick and setting themselves up as wanna be dealers without any retail license and selling said ammo for $80 --$100 bucks a brick is not gouging.

These people "and I use that term loosely" are no friend to our sport. And in many cases they are a cheat to our society.

In closing, I'll just agree to disagree!

Agsalaska
July 8, 2013, 12:59 PM
So folks buying up all the .22 ammo at retail outlets for $20--$30 bucks a brick and setting themselves up as wanna be dealers without any retail license and selling said ammo for $80 --$100 bucks a brick is not gouging.

These people "and I use that term loosely" are no friend to our sport. And in many cases they are a cheat to our society.

In closing, I'll just agree to disagree!
No. It is not price gouging. Price gouging cannot exist for goods not considered a necessity good or an essential good. It also cannot exist, in practice, over such a duration as this. So by all measures this is not price gouging.

I would also disagree with 'these people' being no friend to your sport. I would argue the retailers not raising their prices to match average value ar ejust as much if not more to blame. People pay $90 because it is not available. It is not available bacause 'these people' have the time, connections, and ability to buy it at $20. If the prices would be raised the incentive would be taken away from 'these people.' My guess is a 500 round brick of 22lr should retail today somehwere just below $50.

jcwit
July 8, 2013, 01:13 PM
Still agreeing to disagree, You have your opinion as do I.

BTW the gouging affects my not one little bit. Have a stockpile that I'm sure will last me to the end. Not only of .22's but the same with powder, primers, and brass, & lead.

GoWolfpack
July 8, 2013, 01:18 PM
No. It is not price gouging. Price gouging cannot exist for goods not considered a necessity good or an essential good. It also cannot exist, in practice, over such a duration as this. So by all measures this is not price gouging.

I would also disagree with 'these people' being no friend to your sport. I would argue the retailers not raising their prices to match average value ar ejust as much if not more to blame. People pay $90 because it is not available. It is not available bacause 'these people' have the time, connections, and ability to buy it at $20. If the prices would be raised the incentive would be taken away from 'these people.' My guess is a 500 round brick of 22lr should retail today somehwere just below $50.
I remember doing this same dance a few weeks ago. Deja vu is a funny feeling.

Agsalaska
July 8, 2013, 01:24 PM
Still agreeing to disagree, You have your opinion as do I.

BTW the gouging affects my not one little bit. Have a stockpile that I'm sure will last me to the end. Not only of .22's but the same with powder, primers, and brass, & lead.
Sure. As long as you understand that your opinion is not based on any accepted economic methods or definitions and is entirely contrived outside of any school of economic thought. Mine is based entirely on definitions defined by laws and simple supply and demand economic theory taught at many high schools and often assumed to be understood before stepping foot on a college campus as well as a career made out of studying markets.

We can agree to disagree.


And, for what its worth, the chnage in demand has cost me. I was one of the idiots that just bought ammo on demand and never kept a supply. I now have a pretty good supply. Some bought at old prices but some at new. I will not let it happen again.

Constrictor
July 8, 2013, 01:27 PM
So folks buying up all the .22 ammo at retail outlets for $20--$30 bucks a brick and setting themselves up as wanna be dealers without any retail license and selling said ammo for $80 --$100 bucks a brick is not gouging.

These people "and I use that term loosely" are no friend to our sport. And in many cases they are a cheat to our society.

In closing, I'll just agree to disagree!
correct.

this is the definition in the dictionary:

Noun 1. price gouging - pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/price+gouging

there are plenty of other retailers available so there is zero price gouging.

Agsalaska
July 8, 2013, 01:31 PM
I remember doing this same dance a few weeks ago. Deja vu is a funny feeling.
Yep. And, like a few weeks ago, I can only hope some people who read this open their minds, take a step away from the situation, and consider what is really happening. I understand that most wont and those that do will probably keep quiet.

jcwit
July 8, 2013, 01:33 PM
Sure. As long as you understand that your opinion is not based on any accepted economic methods or definitions and is entirely contrived outside of any school of economic thought. Mine is based entirely on definitions defined by laws and simple supply and demand economic theory taught at many high schools and often assumed to be understood before stepping foot on a college campus as well as a career made out of studying markets.


So I'm to take as gospel that which is taught in public school and college, nope I'll stick to my common sense opinion.

Remember at one time they taught that the world was flat!

And to say these wanna be retailers are not a bane to our sport is just wrong, as should be obvious to all the jr. programs, 4 H programs, summer camp shooting programs that have been curtailed or cut back this year.

oneounceload
July 8, 2013, 01:37 PM
No. It is not price gouging. Price gouging cannot exist for goods not considered a necessity good or an essential good. It also cannot exist, in practice, over such a duration as this. So by all measures this is not price gouging.

I would also disagree with 'these people' being no friend to your sport. I would argue the retailers not raising their prices to match average value ar ejust as much if not more to blame. People pay $90 because it is not available. It is not available bacause 'these people' have the time, connections, and ability to buy it at $20. If the prices would be raised the incentive would be taken away from 'these people.' My guess is a 500 round brick of 22lr should retail today somehwere just below $50.

Exactly! If Wally World had adjusted prices to reflect real-time market conditions, those folks would have stopped lining up to buy it all months ago and things would have calmed down a lot sooner.
There is no such thing as gouging. For those who haven't seen this 5 minute video the last few times I linked to it, it is worth your time and might help clarify things for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9QEkw6_O6w

And that includes ANY item, even "essential" items

Potatohead
July 8, 2013, 01:39 PM
So folks buying up all the .22 ammo at retail outlets for $20--$30 bucks a brick and setting themselves up as wanna be dealers without any retail license and selling said ammo for $80 --$100 bucks a brick is not gouging.

Don't know what Websters would call these folks, but I call them -----GOUGERS

But, dude's got a point (agsalaska), it's not one of those necessary things like gas or something. Methinks you're both right.

guyfromohio
July 8, 2013, 01:40 PM
To the OP's point.... The correction is starting. I'm seeing P-Mags for $12.00 again, Gen 3 Glock 19s for $499 and Gen 4 for $549 just as they were pre-panic. Ammo prices are coming down to where I can readily get Blazer Aluminum for around $12 (still higher than a year ago by 30%) and shotgun shells have remained relatively unaffected with the exception of buckshot.

Even more annoying than "gougers" though, are Internet commandos sending me notes that my Armslist CZ75b priced for $500 is only worth $350 because that is what they saw them for last year. Am I gouging?

Agsalaska
July 8, 2013, 01:42 PM
So I'm to take as gospel that which is taught in public school and college, nope I'll stick to my common sense opinion.

Remember at one time they taught that the world was flat!

And to say these wanna be retailers are not a bane to our sport is just wrong, as should be obvious to all the jr. programs, 4 H programs, summer camp shooting programs that have been curtailed or cut back this year.
Actually, just to make it clear, they stopped teaching the world was flat and understood the world was round long before the general public accepted it to be round.

They are not a bane to our sport. The increase in demand, and therefore the increase in price, is the bane on the sport. The resellers are just responding to market conditions.

If you have to blame somebody, blame the people who caused the increase in demand(whoever they are).

jcwit
July 8, 2013, 01:44 PM
Odd isn't it that the dealers who carry the higher end rimfire ammo have not raised their pricing to any great extent. Its now possible to buy high end target ammo for less that the wanna be dealer wishes to get for his brick of yellow jackets.

And in many cases the "resellers" are under table folks without tax licenses or other required documents to be carrying on a retail business. Therefore they are no more than blackmarket dealers. And many seem to be fine with this. No wonder we are in the shape we're in in this country.

If you have to blame somebody,

I do, I blame the blackmarket dealers. And yes the are a bane to our sport, to both young and old.

Actually, just to make it clear, they stopped teaching the world was flat and understood the world was round long before the general public accepted it to be round.

As they may change the teaching of economics. Little is chiseled in stone.

Fishslayer
July 9, 2013, 06:42 PM
Right now it is 43%, but again I can see that as a wise move to cover the inevitable costs of being caught with primers the retailer bought at $35 when everyone else is selling at the $15 price.


Let us know when ya get there, m'kay? Haven't seen primers under $30/K in years in my area brick & mortars. :(

Well... there WAS that trip to Kansas a few years ago. Opened up a pound of 2400 from that trip the other day. Price tag was $17.98. :eek: IIRC they also were selling Wolf at $12/K. :eek: :eek:

x_wrench
July 10, 2013, 08:29 AM
as far as price gouging goes, i sincerely hope that everyone doing it, looses their financial backside in the very near future, and ends up in the gutters with the drunks and bums. i actually want much, much worse things to happen to them, but being a family site, i am trying my best to keep it nice. basically, they fall into the same class as the politicians causing all of this!

Carl N. Brown
July 10, 2013, 08:36 AM
I wonder how many of the scalpers or price gougers are what we would recognize as gun people--firearms enthusiasts or fellow hunter/shooters--and how many are non-gunny exploiters of a panick?

dogtown tom
July 10, 2013, 10:32 AM
x_wrench as far as price gouging goes, i sincerely hope that everyone doing it, looses their financial backside in the very near future, and ends up in the gutters with the drunks and bums. i actually want much, much worse things to happen to them, but being a family site, i am trying my best to keep it nice. basically, they fall into the same class as the politicians causing all of this!
Wow.
Someone didn't learn anything from 2008 did they?

dogtown tom
July 10, 2013, 11:17 AM
Carl N. Brown I wonder how many of the scalpers or price gougers are what we would recognize as gun people--firearms enthusiasts or fellow hunter/shooters--and how many are non-gunny exploiters of a panick?
I've wondered about that myself. It's been a regular topic of discussion from quite a few of my customers.

I have no doubt that some big box store employees (WalMart, Academy, etc) have benefitted from their position. That doesn't bother me one bit. If you want an employee discount or want to buy ammo before it gets to the ammo cabinet get a job at WalMart or Academy.:D

I do find it difficult to believe that "non gunny exploiters" would waste their time prowling every WalMart in search of the elusive bulk packs.

x_wrench believes its the "politicians causing all of this!"............no kidding. Apparently he didn't get the hidden messages from gun control legislation in the 1934 NFA, 1968 GCA, 1986 Hughes Amendment , 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, etc. Political rhetoric may fan the flames of panic buying but it ain't politicians standing in line outside Academy every morning is it?;)

No, the Great Ammo Panic of 2012-13 was and continues to be our own fault (just like the GAP of 2008-09). Unlike gasoline, milk or bread, ammunition has a pretty long shelf life. It can sit in my closet until I decide to use it..........or sell it. What price I sell MY OWN ammunition is nobodys business.

Those who call it "gouging" are ignorant of what the term means. They're ticked off that someone else had the foresight to buy ammunition when it was readily available AND THEY CHOSE NOT TO DO SO!!! They learned nothing from the previous Great Ammo Panic and choose instead to advertise their poor decision making and lack of planning preferring to whine about "gougers"!

I have a couple of friends who dropped off ammo for me to sell on consignment. The prices they want are a little less than what you would pay on gunbroker, but definitely higher than retail pricing last summer. One guy complained about the high price, but bought ten 50rnd/boxes of WWB 9mm @ $30 each. Guess who had a table at the Dallas Market Hall gun show selling the very ammunition he bought from me? Yep, and he had marked it up another 25%. I don't know if he sold it all or not........and I don't care.

Agsalaska
July 11, 2013, 12:37 AM
dogtown tom:

Those who call it "gouging" are ignorant of what the term means


Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

justice06rr
July 11, 2013, 06:30 AM
Shall we elaborate?

Wikipedia:
Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to a situation in which a seller prices goods or commodities much higher than is considered reasonable or fair. This rapid increase in prices occurs after a demand or supply shock: examples include price increases after hurricanes or other natural disasters. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a crime that applies in some of the United States during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. In the Soviet Union, it was simply included under the single definition of speculation.

The term is similar to profiteering but can be distinguished by being short-term and localized, and by a restriction to essentials such as food, clothing, shelter, medicine and equipment needed to preserve life, limb and property.


Wisegeek.com:
"The term price gouging is used in two different ways. In casual usage, it refers to raising the prices on goods or services to a level which is perceived as unfair. It is also a legal term in some regions of the world, where there are laws against taking advantage of consumers when a period of emergency has been declared. This type of Price gouging could occur during a hurricane for example, when a shop-owner might raise the price of emergency supplies to profit from increased demand.

When people use the term in a casual sense, they usually mean it to suggest that the prices at a store or company are unfair, and that they represent unreasonable profits. In a free market system of course, no profits are “unreasonable,” and supporters of free-market capitalism point out that raising prices on goods in high demand is simply a savvy business move. Consumers typically feel differently because they are the ones who must bear the brunt of the high prices.

It can't be any more clearer.

You are more ignorant if you deny that there is no price gouging going on, as CTD did as a very specific example selling a $10 GI mag for $100. I bought a ton of GI mags from a friend in Dec for $8/each, and sold them for $20-25 during the panic--not $100.

jcwit
July 11, 2013, 08:01 AM
I may be ignorant, but its still gouging, no matter what my level of intelligence is.

Per my Webster's New World Dictionary in hardback, Gouging is listed as - to defraud or overcharge. My dictionary makes no mention as to whether the product/article/whatever is a needed item or an unneeded item, only that it is an item that is overpriced.

So selling an item that retails in the range of $20-$25 dollars and then attempting to sell it for $75 - $100 is obviously overcharging. To think otherwise is pure folly.

45_auto
July 11, 2013, 09:12 AM
So selling an item that retails in the range of $20-$25 dollars and then attempting to sell it for $75 - $100 is obviously overcharging. To think otherwise is pure folly.

Obviously posted by someone who's never bought a soda or candy out of a vending machine ($.25 coke or candy bar at Wal-Mart will cost you $1.00), food or beverages at a sporting event ($.25 coke at Wal-Mart cost $6.00 at the NFL games here) , or a t-shirt at any tourist attraction ($5.00 T-shirt at Wal-Mart will cost you $25.00 at Disney World).

They're not overcharging, no one is forcing you to buy anything. They're simply offering an item or a service to you at a price. If you want to go somewhere else and buy it for less (or choose to not buy it at all) than that's your choice. It's called the "free market".

I still have options to buy Google stock at the initial offering price of $85/share. It closed at $905/share yesterday. If I exercise my option to buy at $85 then sell it at $905 am I obviously overcharging the buyer? Is there some profit limit that you believe I should be allowed when selling my personal property?

Just because I have the ability to purchase goods below market price, it doesn't mean that I am overcharging when I sell my goods at the current market price. How much do you believe that Wal-Mart pays for those $20 bricks of .22's? Based on their purchase price, how much should they sell them for so they're not "obviously overcharging" by your standards?

If they are overpriced (I.E. I offer my Google stocks at $1,000/share), they obviously won't sell and the price will have to drop if I wish to sell them.

Queen_of_Thunder
July 11, 2013, 09:38 AM
So we can blame the major ammo producers and retail stores for selling at doubld the prive or more since Nov of last year. Who is at fault for 52 cents a round WWB 45acp at Academy. I'm pretty sure it isn't some shooter.

45_auto
July 11, 2013, 09:45 AM
Who is at fault for 52 cents a round WWB 45acp at Academy. I'm pretty sure it isn't some shooter.

Actually, it is the shooters. If Academy had shelves full of $.52/round WWB 45ACP that wasn't selling and had been sitting there for some time, you can bet that the price would drop. Watch what happens with the price of their remaining summer items (bathing suits, swimming floats, etc) at the end of the summer.

oneounceload
July 11, 2013, 09:57 AM
So we can blame the major ammo producers and retail stores for selling at doubld the prive or more since Nov of last year. Who is at fault for 52 cents a round WWB 45acp at Academy. I'm pretty sure it isn't some shooter.

You might to look at places around the world and see what the costs are - even at DOUBLE what we pay now, it is a bargain compared to most other places.

The ammo makers did not raise their prices, that occurred at the retail level and is based on supply and demand. All the places who did not react to the market pricing had their inventories wiped clean in short order and were not able to get any more at any price, while the folks who did raise them, had sufficient inventory to get customers into the store who really WANTED the ammo, and possibly other things related to shooting.

Where are these folks screaming gouging when the insurance company has raised their rates almost 50% to cover O'care and that isn't in effect yet; or the $8.00 pint of Bud at the ballpark, or the $9 tuna sandwich at the airport; or even the simple $1.69 20 oz Coke at the C-store?

If you folks think these guys are raking it in, quit your jobs and start making and selling ammo and retire early and rich.

jcwit
July 11, 2013, 09:57 AM
So now it obvious Webster's Dictionary has no idea the meanings of words. OK!

Twist it however you wish, gouging is overpricing and vice versa.

45_auto
July 11, 2013, 10:05 AM
Webster's is correct. However, it would appear that you have no comprehension of what "overpricing" means.

Twist it however you wish, gouging is overpricing and vice versa.

Is Wal-Mart gouging you or overpricing their ammo when they charge you $20.00 for that brick of .22's that currently cost them $6.00?

Constrictor
July 11, 2013, 10:06 AM
Exacly, people refuse to read and acknowledge ALL of the definition in the dictionary. As per the link I posted earlier in this thread, my dictionary says "when no alternative retailer is available" pretty hard
To argue that gouging on ammo is
Even possible!

Hacker15E
July 11, 2013, 10:15 AM
If it was "overpriced", then it would not have sold.

Queen_of_Thunder
July 11, 2013, 10:18 AM
I think it will subside soon



Yea they said it would be over in March then the June, July time frame yet its now the 11th of July and the ammo shortage is still with us. Hornoday is suspending production of some bullets and ammo and even after that action they say the have a 2 year backorder.

There are simply not enough of your so called flippers,gougers,horders that can cause such a demand spike. You also know the Remingtons, Federals and others of the world are in the same boat as Hornoday, multi year backlogs on ammo. The real cause for the shortage is the new demand from all of the new shooters who swelled our ranks at the end of last year and at the first of the year and those who join our ranks every single day. I will venture a guess that we have added 5,000,000+ new shooters to our ranks. Add new shooters and politics and bingo you have shortages and price increases.

fdashes
July 11, 2013, 10:20 AM
There were no "made" shortages of either underwear or socks in order to increase prices to up to, and sometimes over, 100%.

45_auto
July 11, 2013, 10:30 AM
You are more ignorant if you deny that there is no price gouging going on, as CTD did as a very specific example selling a $10 GI mag for $100. I bought a ton of GI mags from a friend in Dec for $8/each, and sold them for $20-25 during the panic--not $100.

So when you make a profit of 150% to 213% on your $8 mag it's not price gouging, but if CTD tries to make 900% on their $10 mag that is price gouging?

Exactly what profit point constitutes gouging? Apparently you believe that 213% profit isn't gouging, so what is?

You kind of left out the bolding on one sentence in your second quote in post 56. Let me emphasize it for you:

In a free market system of course, no profits are “unreasonable,” and supporters of free-market capitalism point out that raising prices on goods in high demand is simply a savvy business move.

KMatch
July 11, 2013, 10:50 AM
That works well - IF you are Walmart, Target, or Home Depot - most small mom and pop shops cannot afford to carry merchandise they cannot make their margins on.

Maybe you should open your own retail store and sell goods at a loss to get customers in the door - then come back in a year and tell us how well you are doing. Small shops (and I owned one in a different genre) only put stuff on sale that doesn't move fast enough - inventory turns and margins drive the business - plain and simple
I own an auto repair shop, so only slightly related. One thing I learned from offering loss leaders is, price shoppers show up for the deal and leave you for the next one. Price shoppers have no loyalty. So, if you're a big store with lots of choices, shoppers will have less reason to go elsewhere - plus the big names can lie claiming you save money on everything they sell and the gullible fall for it and stay put buying a cart of overpriced electronics after saving $1.00 off a pack of candy bars since they were "told" they were saving money. That simply doesn't work for us small guys. Shoppers will go door to door sucking up the deals leaving the small guys broke. The first time you offer primers at half price, shoppers will show up only buying your primers and go to Al's for a Glock on sale. And don't get me started about online shoppers comparing cheap imports to quality products.

dogtown tom
July 11, 2013, 11:11 AM
justice06rr Shall we elaborate?
Wikipedia:.........The term is similar to profiteering but can be distinguished by being short-term and localized, and by a restriction to essentials such as food, clothing, shelter, medicine and equipment needed to preserve life, limb and property.
Sorry, but unless the apocalypse is upon us or you are standing waist deep in zombies your ammunition needs aren't considered essentials as is food and water.



You are more ignorant if you deny that there is no price gouging going on, as CTD did as a very specific example selling a $10 GI mag for $100. I bought a ton of GI mags from a friend in Dec for $8/each, and sold them for $20-25 during the panic--not $100.
Sorry, but you need to read what you cut and pasted. An AR magazine does not meet the standard of essential.




It can't be any more clearer.
I agree, but I know what is/isn't price gouging.;)

Potatohead
July 11, 2013, 11:47 AM
Watch what happens with the price of their remaining summer items (bathing suits, swimming floats, etc) at the end of the summer.

They price that into seasonal items. They know they're going to have to do that. Ammo folks have a certain amount that they WILL NOT be able to go under...they aint gonna give it away just because it sits there for awhile.

RetiredUSNChief
July 11, 2013, 12:25 PM
Shall we elaborate?

Wikipedia:


Wisegeek.com:

It can't be any more clearer.

You are more ignorant if you deny that there is no price gouging going on, as CTD did as a very specific example selling a $10 GI mag for $100. I bought a ton of GI mags from a friend in Dec for $8/each, and sold them for $20-25 during the panic--not $100.

And yet I suppose you're perfectly OK with paying $12,000 for a thousand gallons of water that only costs you $3-$4 out of my tap, then?

Probably even complain about the exorbiant price of gasoline, without even going to far as to look into it enough to realize that, inflation adjusted, it's virtually the same price as what we paid for it in the early 80's.

Reselling a $10 magazine for $100 isn't gouging in the example you've given. Not by far.

KMatch
July 11, 2013, 12:29 PM
Obviously posted by someone who's never bought a soda or candy out of a vending machine ($.25 coke or candy bar at Wal-Mart will cost you $1.00), food or beverages at a sporting event ($.25 coke at Wal-Mart cost $6.00 at the NFL games here) , or a t-shirt at any tourist attraction ($5.00 T-shirt at Wal-Mart will cost you $25.00 at Disney World).

They're not overcharging, no one is forcing you to buy anything. They're simply offering an item or a service to you at a price. If you want to go somewhere else and buy it for less (or choose to not buy it at all) than that's your choice. It's called the "free market".
True... There are other choices so this isn't gouging. However, when scumbags go in hoards to buy out the shelves so there is no more in stock while attempting to keep others from doing so according to posts here and elsewhere, then jack it up, THAT'S gouging regardless of your definition source as there are no other choices due to their own practices. I question some here defending it wondering if they're guilty and trying to sleep better at night? No one in particular, but the arguing does get me to wonder.

huntsman
July 11, 2013, 12:39 PM
One guy complained about the high price, but bought ten 50rnd/boxes of WWB 9mm @ $30 each. Guess who had a table at the Dallas Market Hall gun show selling the very ammunition he bought from me? Yep, and he had marked it up another 25%.

maybe there's still hope for America, that is IF the price control, we need fairness socialists can be beaten back. Price gouging on ammo? nope pay it don't pay it you're still free to do so.

Now when .gov starts infringing by adding punitive taxes on ammo then it will be time for righteous indignation.

Constrictor
July 11, 2013, 12:48 PM
True... There are other choices so this isn't gouging. However, when scumbags go in hoards to buy out the shelves so there is no more in stock while attempting to keep others from doing so according to posts here and elsewhere, then jack it up, THAT'S gouging regardless of your definition source as there are no other choices due to their own practices. I question some here defending it wondering if they're guilty and trying to sleep better at night? No one in particular, but the arguing does get me to wonder.
This is false guy! You can't just change the dictionary definition be cause you don't like it!!!!

oneounceload
July 11, 2013, 12:49 PM
There were no "made" shortages of either underwear or socks in order to increase prices to up to, and sometimes over, 100%.

No, but there was with gasoline in the 70's. There was no "made" shortages of ammo either - it was buyer induced, not seller induced

And yet I suppose you're perfectly OK with paying $12,000 for a thousand gallons of water that only costs you $3-$4 out of my tap, then?

If I lived where there was no water, yes, because that would be the going rate, and just like the video link I posted which you and many seem not to have bothered to watch, charging that would stimulate MORE people to bring water in and the price would start to drop.

Amazing how many have no problem being "GOUGED" (using their term), in their everyday life with things they buy and consume everyday, but when it comes to their hobby, they get incensed. Pretty sad the state of our education system when so many have no clue.....

Queen_of_Thunder
July 11, 2013, 01:05 PM
In trying to define "gouging" one must use the proper context. In regard to ammo, gouging does not exist as its not essential to life as is food and water. Remember context. Thats the key.

Constrictor
July 11, 2013, 02:18 PM
You just gotta love it when you provide dictionary proof and some say "you can have your dictionary definition, that's not what it means to me"

Agsalaska
July 11, 2013, 03:28 PM
Shall we elaborate?

Wikipedia:


Wisegeek.com:

It can't be any more clearer.

You are more ignorant if you deny that there is no price gouging going on, as CTD did as a very specific example selling a $10 GI mag for $100. I bought a ton of GI mags from a friend in Dec for $8/each, and sold them for $20-25 during the panic--not $100.
You are dead wrong. You conveniently highlighted the part about 'life, limb, and property' while completely ignoring the part about 'short term and localized.' You also chose not to highlight the part about 'practices inconsistent with a competitive free market'


It is not price gouging. It cannot be price gouging. It is actually a very very simple economic concept that, for whatever reason, so many people just cannot wrap their minds around.

jcwit
July 11, 2013, 09:27 PM
Well we all now understand Daniel Webster and his dictionary have no idea of the meanings of words.

What a sorry state of affairs.

Robert
July 12, 2013, 09:25 AM
Since this is going in circles let's just call it done.

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