(AK) skier shoots moose


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spacemanspiff
March 20, 2004, 08:16 AM
http://www.adn.com/front/story/4870148p-4805649c.html.

Michael Vogel feared for his life a year ago, when a moose charged him on the Coastal Trail and stomped on his face, temporarily blinding him and smashing several bones.

So after doctors put him back together, he began carrying a gun to protect himself on his daily runs or skis.

Wednesday night, Vogel met another moose trotting toward him at close range while he was skiing on the Coastal Trail in Kincaid Park, about a mile below the chalet.

This time, Vogel pulled a .44-caliber Smith & Wesson revolver from his fanny pack and shot it.

The moose was injured and backed away. About two hours later, state Fish and Game biologist Rick Sinnott tracked blood spatters down the trail and into the woods and found the moose lying about 45 yards from the site of the shooting. Sinnott killed her with a shotgun slug.

Sinnott was critical of Vogel's decision to shoot a moose in one of the city's most used parks. Pepper spray would work, he said. "It's a lot cheaper than a gun too."

The moose was one that had been collared last winter, and she spent most of her time in Kincaid, Sinnott said. "We approached her many times. She was a reliably calm moose."

"If Mike saw her 25 yards ahead, he had lots of room to ski off trail around her," Sinnott said in an e-mail to the Daily News. "When she stood up and started walking toward him, he had time to turn around and retreat down the trail."

The dog probably complicated matters, Sinnott said.

Vogel said Friday that there had been no time and nowhere to go.

He had come down the hill from the chalet and was in the flat area between miles 8 and 8.5 on the trail, Vogel said.

At first it seemed like this encounter might be benign. Vogel saw the moose bedded down on the trail about 30 yards away. He stopped and put his Chesapeake Bay retriever, Katmai, who was off-leash, on heel at his side, he said.

The moose stood up and initially started to walk away. But it changed its mind, turned and began trotting toward him, Vogel said. "Then it pinned its ears back, lowered its head and commenced to charge."

The snow off to the side was too soft to ski on, he said, so he couldn't get off the trail. He didn't want to turn his back on the moose and retreat that way.

"When the moose was about seven yards away, I shot. Things are happening fast. I fired a second time."

After the second shot, the moose stopped, and Vogel pondered what to do next. Since the moose was no longer threatening, he decided to go back to the chalet and report what happened, he said.

Police came before Sinnott got there and interviewed Vogel, who had a proper permit to carry the gun, a police spokesman said. The police report says Vogel "stated he had a ski plan and never thought about turning around on the trail."

Vogel said he doesn't know where that idea came from. He told police that his plan was to go from the chalet to Point Woronzof, he said. As for turning around, "You are not wise to turn your back to a threat."

Sinnott described this moose as relaxed in past encounters. Vogel said that wasn't the case Wednesday.

"This was just an extremely aggressive animal that obviously had no fear of humans," Vogel said. He could think of no reason to explain why the moose charged.

The first time he was attacked by a moose, in March 2003, Vogel figures he startled the animal, and that's why it came after him. "All of a sudden I was there and it was a big surprise," he said. That incident took place where the trail crosses a creek at the end of the east-west runway of Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport. The moose was browsing near the trail, with a smaller moose a little deeper in. Vogel was running. Since the big moose gave no signs of being bothered, he tried to run by, on the other side of the trail. It ran at him, knocked him over and kicked him in the face.

Seven bones in Vogel's face broke. At the time, he was blinded in one eye and struggled to cover the 2 ½ miles to the chalet. Later, he learned the moose had kicked his temple into his eye. It took $22,000 worth of surgery, in which doctors rebuilt the bone structure around Vogel's eye with titanium, to repair the damage, he said.

Vogel, a 47-year-old chemist, is outside doing some form of exercise nearly every day, he said.

After he recovered from the 2003 attack, he talked to someone at Fish and Game to find out what he could legally do to protect himself.

It is illegal to fire a gun within city limits except in defense of your property or self, a police spokesman said. It is also illegal to allow a dog to be off-leash in Kincaid, but Vogel said his dog is highly trained, did not bark and stayed at his side.

Many skiers can recount scary encounters with moose. "I don't want to criticize anybody in this situation," said Tim Stone, a Nordic Ski Association of Anchorage board member, after being told about the incident. "Anybody skiing lately has noticed the moose are sticking close to the trails the last couple of weeks because it's deep."

Stone said he's been charged but has been able to ski away. "Usually it's kind of a false charge and they stop."

Skier Tasha Bergt was at the Kincaid chalet shortly after Vogel shot at the moose Wednesday night.

"It doesn't make me feel that good to have a guy that volatile with a handgun down there," she said. "I mean it's a city park. I'm so upset. ... We don't carry weapons on the trail; we carry our brains."

Vogel says Fish and Game should get out there and manage the problem. There could be a hunting season, or Fish and Game officers could shoot some of the moose, he said.

"Anchorage is a city, not a wildlife theme park. Citizens should be able to go to the park without fear of bodily injury."
=================================


sounds to me like a 'once bitten twice shy' kind of thing.
when i walk to work or home, i encounter moose all the time. and each time i fill my palm. they are unpredictable.
when rollerblading on the same trail Vogel was skiing on (during summer obviously) i've come across 8 moose in a one mile section, one bull, three cows and four calfs. even during summer they stick close to the trails.

and as far as what tasha bergt has to say, about 'we dont carry weapons we carry brains', i'm sure carrying brains while on the coastal trail instead of weapons has been a contributing factor in all the rapes attempted on users of those bike/ski trails.

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Snowdog
March 20, 2004, 08:28 AM
stomped on his face, temporarily blinding him and smashing several bones.

Though an argument can be made about his motives, his previous run-in with a moose does kind of make it difficult to judge the guy....

TallPine
March 20, 2004, 10:04 AM
"It doesn't make me feel that good to have a guy that volatile with a handgun down there,"
It sounds like the moose are the ones that are volatile :rolleyes:

Sheees .....

Preacherman
March 20, 2004, 10:28 AM
I don't think I can second-guess the guy on this one. Past experience, published danger to others, conditions confirmed by other skiers - sounds like a reasonable act of defence, under the circumstances. Of course, to the tree-huggers, Bambi just wanted a piece of lettuce, but... :rolleyes:

El Tejon
March 20, 2004, 10:28 AM
Geez, it's about time they did things right up there. See an animal, shoot it.

Finally getting some real men up there. About time!

ksnecktieman
March 20, 2004, 10:38 AM
Moose at secen yards and he only fired two times? Good shoot, but why did he stop? Then things are BIG:what:

armoredman
March 20, 2004, 10:49 AM
Moose = enormous animal. Want 500 mag, dump all five in moose, THEN "ponder what to do", while reloading!

Pendragon
March 20, 2004, 12:26 PM
My uncle was nearly killed by a cow moose when he was up there fishing.

He was walking through a field and saw a cow and a calf - the cow charged him and he had nowhere to go - he jumped aside at the last second and lay low in the fireweed.

He lay there for more than 10 minutes and when he got up, she was only 10-15 yards away and charged again.

They played cat and mouse for over an hour and he worked his way to some trees. He got away and found a cabin - the person there told him the moose cows get a couple guys there every year and he was very lucky.

Don't know why he didnt have a gun - my family is from Oregon and he ought to have known better.

WilderBill
March 20, 2004, 01:24 PM
I can't really blame him.
I would imagine that getting your face stomped is a pretty effective teaching tool. He learned not to trust huge woodland creatures when they come toward him.

Wildalaska
March 20, 2004, 02:06 PM
Should have had the dog on the leash. He shoudl get summonsed for that.

I see a doggie running loose in park, Im drawing down on it. It comes up to me, Im shootin it.

As for Tasha, well sweetie since the public is allowed to carry in city parks maybe I should train on my skis with a Colt Commado on my back. betcha that will make ya all warm and kumbaya inside.


WildbutitsalaskasotashacansaywhatshewantsAlaska

BrokenArrow
March 20, 2004, 02:17 PM
Coulda been just like he said or he could be holding a grudge and this was his first chance to get even with a moose, any moose...

It's his word against a dead moose. If the story fits, you must aquit! ;)

Hkmp5sd
March 20, 2004, 02:24 PM
The moose was one that had been collared last winter, and she spent most of her time in Kincaid, Sinnott said. "We approached her many times. She was a reliably calm moose."
I'd lay the blame right there. There is a reason animals living in the woods are called "wild".

Mornard
March 20, 2004, 03:52 PM
I sort of thought folks in AK had a more practical approach to life than this. I thought it was more like "big dangerous animals can hurt you; therefore, we shoot them." Which is OK. in CA, the new state motto seems to be "Come to CA; ride bikes; feed the cougars"

Dannyboy
March 20, 2004, 04:32 PM
I guess this lady thought he could turn around and outrun the moose. On hard, dry ground it ain't gonna happen. On XC skis, I'd say it's pretty friggin impossible. If people like her are so bent on "common sense" gun laws (assupmtion on my part) why don't they have any common sense?

Kodiak AK
March 20, 2004, 04:36 PM
Why do I know the name Mike Vogel?:scrutiny:

Gewehr98
March 20, 2004, 06:51 PM
I don't think I can second-guess the guy on this one. Past experience, published danger to others, conditions confirmed by other skiers - sounds like a reasonable act of defence, under the circumstances. Of course, to the tree-huggers, Bambi just wanted a piece of lettuce, but...


But this visitor to Fairbanks was walking back to the Captain Bartlett's Inn from that wonderful buffet place on Main Drag Fairbanks one fine summer evening. What should appear out of the brush, but a moose cow, trotting up to not only yours truly, but the rest of the aircrew gaggle that had just partaken of caribou stew, stuffed trout, etc. (Boy, that was good, but I'll be darned if I can remember the name of the place) She was persistent in her mooching, but we had nothing to give her, and I'm not a real big fan of wild animals that have become dependant on sustenance from humans. So we ignored her and continued on our walk. Maybe I should've just shot it, it could've attacked me, ya know. ;)

Sounds like the guy was looking for an excuse to cap a moose after his face got trompled on the first time. My wife's a bit touchy, too, after getting bit by a dog a decade or so ago. As far as she's concerned, if a given dog even looks at her sideways, it's out to get a piece of her. :(

WonderNine
March 20, 2004, 06:55 PM
Police came before Sinnott got there and interviewed Vogel, who had a proper permit to carry the gun

Permit? I thought Alaska had gone no restrictions like PA?

Kodiak AK
March 20, 2004, 08:20 PM
CCW. Some parts are open carry some are not .

Stand_Watie
March 20, 2004, 10:35 PM
Moose are unpredictable and dangerous. He's lucky to have survived the first encounter. A big thumbs up to him for having the guts to continue his lifestyle despite the Moose.

If you encounter a moose on the road, don't blow the car horn. Put it in reverse and back up a hundred yards. If the moose doesn't leave the road in a reasonable amount of time turn the car around and choose another route. If you're on foot or on ski you don't have this luxury, and I think you should consider using Sinnot's option. Fortunately there are few places in the US where Moose exist that don't have somewhat reasonable gun laws (possibly far northern wisconsin?) .

CB900F
March 20, 2004, 10:51 PM
Fella's;

Have you actually seen a live moose up close? Not only are they 'big', but in this case & more importantly they are long-legged. If indeed the moose was charging & only 7 yards away at the time he shot, IMHO he was less than 2 seconds ( it was in snow, on dry ground less, maybe a lot less than 1 second ) away from getting hit again.

Perhaps if Bergt gets stomped, she may change her mind, or get one.

I'da done the same thing I think. And all I'd need is for the dog to decide to go left when I'd decided to go right. Yup, no leash.

900F

Stand_Watie
March 20, 2004, 11:25 PM
Perhaps if Bergt gets stomped, she may change her mind, or get one.

Nahhhh. The blissninies never get a brain. It's always the fault of the victim in their twisted thinking. The victim didn't act victimish enough is the cause of the problem (again in their twisted thinking). A cringing dead person is much more noble than a person who fights back and lives don't you know:scrutiny:

entropy
March 21, 2004, 12:15 AM
" Fortunately there are few places in the US where Moose exist that don't have somewhat reasonable gun laws (possibly far northern wisconsin?) ."
Darn few moose up here, and you'd better have hoof marks on your butt to show the game warden or sheriff. There is no moose season.
Now those Mud ducks next door in Minnesota (oh ya ya know), there are moose there, but again, you'd better be able to prove you were in fear for your life. When I still lived there, on my one moose hunt (you get one per lifetime, 4 to 6 people on a liscense, only one moose, either bull or cow), I had a moose get up about 10 yards in front of me, in tag alders so thick I could only see a couple small dark patches of fur through the brush. I had my M77 .300Winmag slung, because it was so thick, and had my Redhawk .44 out. It sounded like an Armored division going through the woods!:what: Even with my very stout 300gr XTP handloads, I suddenly felt very undergunned! I'm kinda glad it went away from me instead of coming at me! So I guess I can't blame the guy for firing, my only question is why did he stop at two?:confused:
FWIW, My Dad shot a nice bull the next morning, and it took 5 200 gr. Partitions from his .300 Winmag Sako, and still went 150 yds. before collapsing!:D

Wildalaska
March 21, 2004, 12:48 AM
Permit? I thought Alaska had gone no restrictions like PA?

AK does not require a permit to carry, the Anchorage Daily Worker is, as always, mistaken

WildpravdaAlaska

Kodiak AK
March 21, 2004, 01:40 AM
Wildalaska AK does not require a permit to carry, the Anchorage Daily Worker is, as always, mistaken
You sure?:scrutiny:
It is my understanding that for concealed you need a permit . Open carry is OK statewide , but local towns may pass laws against it .Not argueing with ya , I just want to make sure nobody gets thier pig in a poke so to speak .

Wildalaska
March 21, 2004, 01:46 AM
Its vermont style, no permit rwquired any more (even in Los Anchorage)


WildurbanAlaskanAlaska

Kodiak AK
March 21, 2004, 01:55 AM
[Johny Carson]I did not know that.[/Johny Carson]

forquidder
March 21, 2004, 02:02 AM
This time of year moose have a very short fuse. They've been wading though belly deep snow all winter and they become very beligerant and unafraid. They will get on roadways and pathways where the snow is packed and the walking is easier and will refuse to move. A Roman Candle is a good motivator during these times. I actually expect to be charged when around moose during winter's end and avoid them at all cost. And a cow moose coming at you with her ears laid back means business. :uhoh:

4570Rick
March 21, 2004, 02:17 AM
Stomp my head and break my skull once...shame on you.
Try it twice...
































BANG

Moparmike
March 21, 2004, 03:21 AM
"Anchorage is a city, not a wildlife theme park. Citizens should be able to go to the park without fear of bodily injury."Isnt this the same place with all those molestations and rapes on the bike trails? What planet has she been on?:confused: :scrutiny:

I see a doggie running loose in park, Im drawing down on it. It comes up to me, Im shootin it.In someplaces of the country, shooting a man's dog is a Declaration of War. Unless my little 20lb Cheese-mooching Beagle has Rabies, the man who puts a bullet in my dog will be getting several of my bullets in him.:fire:

She doesnt run loose, but incase she ever does, I will make damn sure it ain't Alaska.

Wildalaska
March 21, 2004, 04:13 AM
In someplaces of the country, shooting a man's dog is a Declaration of War. Unless my little 20lb Cheese-mooching Beagle has Rabies, the man who puts a bullet in my dog will be getting several of my bullets in him.

Well sorry ya feel that you would need to commit homicide over a dog Mike, so the easy solution is to keep it leashed yes?

Anchorage has doggie parks, where all the doggies can run happy and free. I dont go there. I go to regular parks, where I doggies are supposed to be on leashes.

WildandtheyattractbearstooAlaska

TCD
March 21, 2004, 03:13 PM
WildandtheyattractbearstooAlaska


Well those eagle bait dogs do anyways ;)


I may not shoot a small rat dog running at me, but if it gets near me, it's getting a good boot to the head.



:neener:

Also, I've heard of small dogs in the local area going to vets to get bb's and pellets removed from em.

:evil:

Moparmike
March 21, 2004, 04:15 PM
I never said that I woudnt keep her leashed. Heck, she never leaves the yard for the most part. But, one cannot always guarantee that the hold on the leash will not falter. Sometimes, dogs get loose.


Anyway....



Wasnt Kerry supposed to be skiing this weekend? Is it possible to mistake him for a moose?:evil: ;)

CB900F
March 21, 2004, 04:33 PM
Mike;

Be very careful, freedom of speech is dead.

900F

Gewehr98
March 21, 2004, 05:40 PM
Wasn't Kerry supposed to be skiing this weekend? Is it possible to mistake him for a moose?

Perhaps he can make a trip to Anchorage, where Wildalaska would mistake him for an unleashed dog. :eek:

spacemanspiff
March 21, 2004, 06:33 PM
normal walking speed for a moose is about what i can jog. when they decide to move faster than walking speed, theres not much one can do.

more often than not a moose just lumbers around lazily.

about the only chance a person has at not having to shoot a moose that charges, is to take cover behind a tree. you may have to circle it a while and play 'keep away'. its not a viable option though unless you are nimble on your feet.

and as far as why vogel only shot twice, he probably was worried he'd have another runin with more moose on his way back.

entropy, exactly what body parts was your dad aiming for? FIVE SHOTS??? :neener:

Wildalaska
March 21, 2004, 07:04 PM
Also, I've heard of small dogs in the local area going to vets to get bb's and pellets removed from em.

No self respecting Alaskan has an eagle bait dog:D :D

Sometimes, dogs get loose.

Thoght I heard that defense in an San Francisco murder trial:what: :D

Perhaps he can make a trip to Anchorage, where Wildalaska would mistake him for an unleashed dog.

Athough thatsfunny enough to make a pithy response, such a comment that even jokes about shooting presidential cndidates has no place on this Board.


Wild3disparatequotesAlaska

Moparmike
March 21, 2004, 07:48 PM
Thoght I heard that defense in an San Francisco murder trialObviously, you missed my point. Find me something that is aboslutely 100% besides your belief that the 2nd is a privledge that requires permits and not a right. ***** happens, not all ***** happenings require the use of firearms. I thought of all people a gunsmith in Alaska would know that. Guess not. :rolleyes:

Somepeople view their dogs as members of the family. I am one of them, and I love my dog like she was my very own child. And for you to shoot a dog happily trotting along with its nose to the ground or howling at squirrels without a care in the world is such an abhorrent act that I cant even begin to comprehend how any rational human being could say it. "ITS A DOG WITHOUT A LEASH!! THE HUNT IS ON! BANG!" Abso-freaking-loutly stupid.:fire:



Nowthen, can we please get back on topic?

Wildalaska
March 21, 2004, 09:24 PM
QUOTE]Find me something that is aboslutely 100% besides your belief that the 2nd is a privledge that requires permits and not a right. ***** happens, not all ***** happenings require the use of firearms. I thought of all people a gunsmith in Alaska would know that. Guess not. [/QUOTE]

Love to respond to your little flame if I had a clue as to the point you are trying to make.:banghead:

And for you to shoot a dog happily trotting along with its nose to the ground or howling at squirrels without a care in the world is such an abhorrent act that I cant even begin to comprehend how any rational human being could say it. "ITS A DOG WITHOUT A LEASH!! THE HUNT IS ON! BANG!" Abso-freaking-loutly stupid.

Guess ya never read my original post did ya?

And by the way, if ya loved your dog so much you wouldnt be lettin it off the leash in an urban area would ya, where not only is cutie little Mopsy a potential danger to others, but in dnager herslef from such things as trucks cars eagles etc.

Enough of this, I feel like I am arguiing on the PETA Board.

WildyourfreedomendswhereitinfringesonmineAlaska:banghead: :cuss:

Moparmike
March 21, 2004, 09:30 PM
The point I was trying to make is that even though she is on a leash, I cannot guarantee that she will never slip off of that leash, or it will never slip from my hand.

Yes, being off a leash is dangerous. But she isnt infringing on your freedoms by running around while I am chasing her down. Heaven forbid she should sniff your shoe and bum your food. Such an evil creature.:rolleyes:

Lord, I love how you keep acusing me of being a liberal. What exactly is your point?:scrutiny:

capnrik
March 21, 2004, 09:57 PM
A dog is a fine meal. :D

No moose left in Texas.

Gewehr98
March 21, 2004, 10:15 PM
A dog is a fine meal.

No moose left in Texas.

They came up with the Chihuahua? I notice they get mighty nervous around buffet tables and Taco Bell, especially on the 5th of May. :D


I can't help it, I've been to Korea too many times. :what:

Cosmoline
March 21, 2004, 10:31 PM
The moose shooting is sad, but OTOH if you're locked onto skis you could be in real trouble. If you can get out of the way it's another matter.

I think the other skier is carrying her brains in her fanny pack :D There are plenty of two-legged reasons to carry heat on those trails.

Cosmoline
March 21, 2004, 10:36 PM
I see a doggie running loose in park, Im drawing down on it. It comes up to me, Im shootin it.

The one time a bull moose nearly got me, it was after the big guy had been enraged by two off-leash dogs along the Turnagain Arm trail. The dogs high-tailed it and guess who got the moosey fury directed at him?

I wouldn't shoot off-leash dogs just because they're off leash, but I have put a bead on dogs in the act of chasing moose. It's entirely legal to kill them when they do this. Thankfully the one time I did this, the owners quickly leashed the dogs.

For the record, I also reserve the right to shoot tourists who are bothering wildlife :D I harbor no ill-will toward dogs.

Stand_Watie
March 21, 2004, 11:03 PM
I wouldn't shoot off-leash dogs just because they're off leash, but I have put a bead on dogs in the act of chasing moose. It's entirely legal to kill them when they do this. Thankfully the one time I did this, the owners quickly leashed the dogs

No idea whether it was/is actually legal or not, but have heard the same thing regarding dogs running deer spoken repeatedly by deer hunters. The law here in Texas is that it must be on your (or property you control) property and in the act of depredation, or menacing human welfare as best as I can tell.

I can see both viewpoints as I have dogs that we treat almost like family, yet who escape my property sometimes, yet I have a constant problem with feral, stray and uncontrolled pest dogs. I'd be really upset if one of my dogs were shot, but I wouldn't blame the shooter if they had a valid reason (like it were chasing after their cattle, or threatening them. I'm going to spend the next couple weekends improving my dog fence.

p.s. The reason I have heard commonly given for automatically shooting a dog that's running game is that (and again I don't know specifically the validity of this) a dog can kill a deer just by running it for a few miles and running off it's fat supply and causing it to starve late on in the winter. I imagine this is less of a problem here in Texas than in cold climates.

pax
March 22, 2004, 12:07 AM
Seems to me that some of the above posts are getting a mite too personal. Can y'all scale it back a bit?

Thanks,

pax

No one can drive us crazy unless we give them the keys. -- Doug Horton

carpettbaggerr
March 22, 2004, 04:24 AM
"It doesn't make me feel that good to have a guy that volatile with a handgun down there," she said. "I mean it's a city park. I'm so upset. ... We don't carry weapons on the trail; we carry our brains."

Until a moose kicks you in the head. Then your brains will fall on the ground. Though it would be hard to tell the difference with this lady.

Ryder
March 22, 2004, 04:53 AM
Been chased by a moose once in Ontario. Stopped on the side of the road to take off my sunglasses as it was getting too dark to see. My biggest worry was running into one since I've read stories of trains being derailed. I saw the moose across the road and up ahead as I got back on the bike. Thought "neato" I am going to get a really good view of that. Plan was to putt past and get an eyeful but as I came equal to it's position I realized it was going to be a closer look than I ever wanted. They move pretty good! Given it's persistence I can only guess it wanted to mate with my bike.

This Alaskan incident happened in the snow. Why on earth would anyone have to guess about what happened? The tale is written in tracks. Absurd that the story was written as a mystery.

Preacherman
March 22, 2004, 08:36 AM
Given it's persistence I can only guess it wanted to mate with my bike.
Now that would have been a dérailleur for your derrière...

:what: :neener: :p :D

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