Do you guys ever "open carry"?


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Whitey
March 20, 2004, 11:24 AM
I've found myself doing it more than ever before. Even though I have a CC Permit, I find that open carry is easier and sometimes more comfortable.

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HogRider
March 20, 2004, 12:06 PM
I always carried open before Arizona became a CCW state. Now you don't see it that much any more and I miss it.

Nevertheless I still carry open at times.

Standing Wolf
March 20, 2004, 12:17 PM
I carry openly now and then. I find a hip holster lets me carry more gun more comfortably. If more people carried openly, I'd carry that way more often.

I believe it would do the nation a world of good to see lots of law-abiding American citizens carrying safely.

Whitey
March 20, 2004, 12:29 PM
As long as there is not a sign stating "NO FIREARMS", would you then assume it's okay to carry open in their store? Say Wal-Mart for example?

mcneill
March 20, 2004, 12:30 PM
Only at the range or on my own property. Open carry in public is illegal in Texas.


Jim

Whitey
March 20, 2004, 12:45 PM
Here in Colorado it's legal to open carry everywhere unless a sign is posted saying otherwise. I went into my bank last week and nobody fainted, screamed, or panicked. Pretty neat to be able to walk around and have the ability to protect myself. :)

Russ
March 20, 2004, 01:04 PM
If I did carry open, I know I would get a major hassle from various people. Why do this if you have a CCW( or CCDWL) where I live. If you don't have a CCW maybe this means something to you but otherwise, I would rather avoid the questions and hassle and not carry open in public.

Russ
March 20, 2004, 01:05 PM
If I did carry open, I know I would get a major hassle from various people. Why do this if you have a CCW( or CCDWL) where I live. If you don't have a CCW maybe this means something to you but otherwise, I would rather avoid the questions and hassle and not carry open in public. Why invite trouble?

Andrew Rothman
March 20, 2004, 01:09 PM
Where legal, there is the not-insane notion that it's good to help acclimate the blissninnies to the idea that good guys carry guns too.

Travis McGee
March 20, 2004, 01:26 PM
I do in the boonies in states where it's legal like AZ.

Good point about accilmating the "blissninnies" to the concept of normal good-guy civilians carrying guns.

http://matthewbracken.web.aplus.net/bookcover.jpg

444
March 20, 2004, 02:00 PM
I do occasionally. But not often. Usually it is just when I am going somewhere where I would normally carry a gun: training, to the range and just happen to stop somewhere on the way. I have openly carried a few times while I was attending Gunsite, such as to dinner on the day we had a night shoot. We carried all day, took a dinner break and returned to the range that evening. Most of the people didn't take off their sidearms so I didn't either. Here where I live, you can get away with it in most places although I have never really done it much. I do know people who do however.
One thing to keep in mind is that there are so many different law enforcement agencies along with security officers around that seeing someone with a gun on their belt isn't all that big of a deal even if you are dressed in street clothes.
I don't do it more just because I don't want to be the object of everyone's attention. I prefer just to be the invisible man. So, even if I can get away with it, I don't really want to do it. I agree with the idea that if more people did it, I would be tempted to join in.

thefitzvh
March 20, 2004, 02:32 PM
After hearing stories of wackos at outdoor range areas (like in the deserts, etc) getting robbed/shot/insert other bad stuff/ maimed, I started carrying my XD on my hip, round in the pipe. I'm not taking chances.


James

SodaPop
March 20, 2004, 03:19 PM
I think there are more advantages to carrying a firearm concealed as opposed to open.

tcsd1236
March 20, 2004, 03:24 PM
No. Even if I was not an officer and only ahd a concealed carry permit, it would be concealed. Reason: its a concealed carry permit: that means concealed. Not open carry. You could have the permit yanked here for open carry, and why alert the bad guys that you are carrying?It defeats the whole purpose of being concealed.

nemesis
March 20, 2004, 03:41 PM
My pistol serves as a defensive weapon and not an ornament. To display its presence is to sacrifice, at least partially, my advantage. This could make my gun the target of malcontents and could make me a target too.

I don't want to attract attention, I want to blend in. I don't want to be the first gunned down in a convenience store robbery because the BG's came in when I had my back turned and they decided that I was a threat.

No, they won't ever know who I am or even if I am present. They can't identify me. I'm their biggest threat.

But, hey, I've got nothing against you carrying openly. That just gives me more time to get into postion while they're engaging you.

idd
March 20, 2004, 03:42 PM
Open carry in public is illegal in Texas.

Actually, the law is a bit more nuanced. Unlawful possession of a weapon is defined at Texas Penal Code § 46.02. "A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club."

§ 46.15 then carves out numerous exceptions. Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who is "traveling, or is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity."

"Traveling" is not defined in Texas Penal Code, and trying to derive a reliable definition from caselaw is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

In addition, the courts have recognized some common law defenses which arise when the defendant has a legitimate purpose to carry a weapon. http://www.io.com/~velte/moosani.htmthe

If carrying a handgun pursuant to the CHL statute, then yes, you must carry concealed. However, if carrying under § 46.15, then you may carry either open or concealed. The downside to open carry is you can (maybe) beat the rap, you can't beat the ride.

CleverNickname
March 20, 2004, 04:24 PM
I've only open carried in states where I can't legally carry concealed (NV and NM). Nobody's said anything, except one soccer mom-type gave me a dirty look as I was filling up at a gas station outside Las Vegas.

FedDC
March 20, 2004, 04:50 PM
Only when we are serving warrants. I always try to conceal my pistol at least a little. Even if it is just a T-Shirt untucked, it is better than nothing. Having gone through gun grab training and seen what happens when guns get taken away, I try to get every advantage I can and one of the biggest is not letting people know that you are carrying.

That is why many LE holsters that are used for overt carry have extra retention devices.

TallPine
March 20, 2004, 05:05 PM
I've only open carried in states where I can't legally carry concealed (NV and NM). Nobody's said anything, except one soccer mom-type gave me a dirty look as I was filling up at a gas station outside Las Vegas.
Clever, was that Las Vegas NV or Las Vegas NM ........?

I know, now I'm being clever :)

tyme
March 20, 2004, 07:03 PM
No. I wouldn't even if it were legal in TX, which it's not.

Andrew Rothman
March 20, 2004, 07:12 PM
Incidentally, Minnesota permits don't even distinguish between open and concealed carry.

Concealed carry definitely has strong tactical advantages. The possible advantages to open carry are more political.

Bruce Krafft has made it a bit of a mission to open carry in Minnesota.

He writes, at http://home.comcast.net/~bruce.krafft/ (emphasis mine) ...
...I now have official nanny-state permission to carry a weapon. So I carry. Openly. I have gotten some flack for this, mostly from my fellow RKABA supporters (who all seem anxious that I don't do anything that might "annoy" the antis), but I continue to do so because for too long gun owners have treated their guns as something shameful, something that should be hidden. As a result people have no idea that we are out there.

When I go to the grocery store carrying openly in a shoulder holster people see someone with a gun who is not using it to terrorize or victimize. So the next time some anti is spouting hate against gun owners, at least some people in my neighborhood will say "He didn't look like a camo wearing, bandoleer festooned nut job. He looked like an overweight, middle-aged guy who held the door for me and helped a little old lady get some crackers off of a high shelf."

I also carry openly when I go somewhere to try and get arrested. For more on that, you can read about my day at the mall (https://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=2795).

Majic
March 20, 2004, 08:17 PM
I do sometimes. I think a lot of people forget that the handgun serves other purposes than just protection against human predators. Woods bumming, plinking, or hunting frequently comes to mind for me. In that situation, comfort is paramount and open carry is the most comfortable.
For my intended purposes, defense against humans is at the bottom of my list as the usage of my handguns. They fulfill that role, but it wasn't the driving force purpose for it's purchase.

ChickenHawk
March 21, 2004, 12:09 AM
I wish open carry was legal in Texas. I would definitely go for it.

Comfortable concealed carry can be a pain in the .. well, you know.

ChickenHawk

CleverNickname
March 21, 2004, 12:21 AM
Clever, was that Las Vegas NV or Las Vegas NM ........?

NV. Didn't even know there was a Las Vegas, NM.

Tamara
March 21, 2004, 12:32 AM
All day at work.

Black92LX
March 21, 2004, 01:05 AM
i am sure i will give it a try a few times once i become 21.

Wildalaska
March 21, 2004, 01:14 AM
Why?

I got enough stuff hangin over me belt...

WildgutAlaska

Treylis
March 21, 2004, 01:57 AM
I carry openly all the time.

I really do believe that if we had a bunch more people walking around with guns on their hips just peaceably going about their business that it'd reduce a lot of the "oh my god that man has a gun" sentiments and knee-jerk reactions, because people would just get used to it.

While I agree that there are advantages to carrying concealed, I really do think that people should carry openly when they can for those aforementioned political purposes.

The "tactical" advantages of it being a deterrent or marking yourself as a target are lengthy, but I'll just say that people who think that it marks you as a target are being silly--I think that it makes the prospect of such criminal activity markedly more unlikely if said criminal(s) know that at least one person is definitely armed.

Do you guys really think that if you're inside a convenience store and somebody's preparing to rob it, they're still going to try that plan if they see a man inside with a gun? Frankly, I think it's more likely that the plan would be aborted and I wouldn't be "engaged" at all.

Hell, I walked right by a bunch of people and police today at a gas station, and one of the officers nodded his head and gave a hello. I returned the greeting. Not a scowl or "What are you carrying that gun around for?" attitude apparent at all.

This is also in rather urban areas, I rarely head out of the city.

PAOLO721
March 21, 2004, 02:39 AM
by Treylis.....The "tactical" advantages of it being a deterrent or marking yourself as a target are lengthy, but I'll just say that people who think that it marks you as a target are being silly--I think that it makes the prospect of such criminal activity markedly more unlikely if said criminal(s) know that at least one person is definitely armed.

There have been numerous convience store and jewlery store armed robberies where the BG's went in knowing in advance that the clerk was armed. They are not refered to as, desperados for nothing.

Now as a citizen, the only time I open carry is at my local range. Any other situation and I am carrying concealed for the obvious (IMO) tactical advantages.

Treylis
March 21, 2004, 02:52 AM
There have been numerous convience store and jewlery store armed robberies where the BG's went in knowing in advance that the clerk was armed. They are not refered to as, desperados for nothing.

Point taken, but I'm sure there are numerous counterexamples, perhaps even more numerous... unfortunately, statistics on this would be rather difficult or impossible to collect because there's no real way to catalogue how many such "prevented crimes" there would be.

Dienekes
March 21, 2004, 03:23 AM
WHY? The least you will do is to attract attention to yourself as you "make a statement". Not everyone will be suitably impressed by your macho posturing, and the stage is already set with one person with questionable judgement and a firearm present. As the old saying goes, "This ain't the movies, and you ain't John Wayne".

I have seen this stunt pulled in various places--and I usually watch that individual very carefully and move along. While they are preening themselves, I am just as well armed, part of the landscape, and behaving tactically.

The fewer people who know anything, the fewer problems you can have.

I hope nobody just getting into this stuff pays any attention to such foolishness.

Majic
March 21, 2004, 05:00 AM
I have seen this stunt pulled in various places--and I usually watch that individual very carefully and move along. While they are preening themselves, I am just as well armed, part of the landscape, and behaving tactically.
Stunt!!! Since when did open carry become a stunt?
Why should a gun carrier be closely monitoring another gun carrier? Are you one of those who fear the sight of firearms in public even though you carry one? Just because someone doesn't do something exactly like you gives you a reason to distrust them? They are really doing no more than what you yourself are doing. They just chose not to be secretive about it. That is the exact attitude we would like to see change in people. It would be nice to eliminate the fear of those seeing something that really is commonly seen in everyday life. No one seems to mind the LEOs with firearms worn on their sides in plain sight. They are no more than just mere humans like ourselves. Why get upset if someone not in a uniform goes about life the same way?

Ala Dan
March 21, 2004, 05:19 AM
NOT ME! I frown on open carry of CCW's;
cuz my belief is that the element of surprise has
to remain with the good guy/gal. If a perp sees
your CCW, then he has won half the battle! :uhoh:
And besides, all license isuued here in Jefferson
County, AL are license to carry concealed.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

gunsmith
March 21, 2004, 06:14 AM
And loved it! I got one dirty look in a Scotsdale supermarket,nothing else.
If your holster has a retention lever and it's legal in your state you should do it once in a while.
If I lived in AZ I would do it most of the time in the summer as it's probably easier then having it concealed.
I open carry at work and I sometimes get asked by anti's "how do you get to carry if you're not a cop?"
"You have to join the NRA" I tell them!

Treylis
March 21, 2004, 06:56 AM
WHY? The least you will do is to attract attention to yourself as you "make a statement". Not everyone will be suitably impressed by your macho posturing, and the stage is already set with one person with questionable judgement and a firearm present. As the old saying goes, "This ain't the movies, and you ain't John Wayne".

Why?

I cannot legally carry concealed in most situations, for starters. Plus, I'm not constantly fingering my pistol and acting all Condition Red and twitchy like I'm going to shoot somebody the instant they look at me wrong. Sure, I pay attention--but I just go about my business. The political idea is to get people used to the sight of others walking around with guns until it's not a big deal. "Hey, honey, that man there with that gun didn't shoot up the grocery store. Imagine that." There are also the aforementioned problems with me wanting to abide by the laws.

I'll be damned if you're going to tell me I cannot go around armed in an entirely legal fashion. If that makes me macho, so be it.

I have seen this stunt pulled in various places--and I usually watch that individual very carefully and move along. While they are preening themselves, I am just as well armed, part of the landscape, and behaving tactically.

I don't preen. I just do exactly what I'd normally do, only I have a 1911 at my side. Majic responded to this point in his above reply well enough, and I agree with it.

444
March 21, 2004, 10:32 AM
I agree. I sounds to me like you have been completely conditioned to believe that guns are evil and those that carry them are too Dienekes. It sounds like you don't believe that a peon without a uniform should or can be trusted with a gun except of course for yourself.

"Look at that crazy nut there Honey, he has a GUN !!! Oh the horror !!!!!"

Whitey
March 21, 2004, 12:09 PM
I'm glad my question has brought so many replies. I was actually expecting more of you guys to say "yes", rather than saying negative things about it. Here in Colorado I think guns are just a way of life. Everytime I go out while open carrying I never get an "OH my GOD....GUN!!!!" response. Most people don't notice it, or, if they do they simply go about their business.

And to the guy who called it a "Stunt", and "Macho" to open carry I say you're all wet. Would you also call hunters "macho" because they might be wearing parts of their hunting clothing while on their way to the field? It sounds to me like you are the one that's intimidated when you see another gunner open carrying. Why? Is it because you wish you had the balls to do it? Or do you like acting like an "undercover, tactical, ninja, I'll swoop in for the convenience store hold up and be the hero" kind of guy because you weren't "preening"?

I will continue to open carry and enjoy my freedom to do so.

PAOLO721
March 21, 2004, 12:25 PM
by treylis........I'll be damned if you're going to tell me I cannot go around armed in an entirely legal fashion. If that makes me macho, so be it.

After reading Dienekes's post several time I fail to see where he said or infered that to you.

That being said, I live in a state where folks don't even look twice at someone who is open carrying. If you or anyone chooses to do so legally, then that is your choice and your right.

What I think Dienekes's may have been saying and I certainly am not trying to speak for him is that.............and this is my belief, carrying concealed is tactically superior to open carry.

Allow me to make this real for you, if I can. Back in the mid 80's I was living and working in Boston, MA. I was delivering liquid O2 to respiratory patients. I was carrying a 140lb. tank of O2 up the front stairs of a dwelling in a very bad part of Boston. I was carrying concealed. Two young BG's walked right up behind me on the front steps, stuck a gun in my back and said one word, "money." I said back pocket. They took my wallet, took out the $22.00 that was in there, tossed the wallet and ran.

Open carry in this real world situation and at the very least I would have lost my weapon. When BPD arrived, I told the officers what happened and that I was carrying but did not pull my weapon as the 2 BG's ran. When I went down to the Area B station to look at mugshots one of the responding officers asked me why I didn't shoot them as they ran. I said, because that would have been stupid and he smiled.

Whitey
March 21, 2004, 12:39 PM
What I think Dienekes's may have been saying and I certainly am not trying to speak for him is that.............and this is my belief, carrying concealed is tactically superior to open carry.

If that is true, why then do uniformed police open carry?

Texasbagman
March 21, 2004, 12:45 PM
After reading Dienekes's post several time I fail to see where he said or infered that to you.

Funny how two people can read the same thing and get two different impressions.

From Dienekes: Not everyone will be suitably impressed by your macho posturing,...

That seemed to me to be saying that anyone open carrying, assuming other than LEO, was macho posturing. Further more, he called it stunt.

I will say I disagree.

M2 Carbine
March 21, 2004, 01:19 PM
As has been said, in Texas there is no open carry.

I think concealed carry is the all around best way to carry,

but, if we could also carry open I would, at "low risk" times, for the reason that I also think it's "good public relations" for people to see that the good guys with guns aren't a problem and may even be a comfort to have around.

If they want to ask me about it, great.

As far as someone asking me why I carry a gun, my usual answer is, To try and make sure no one does YOU (or your children) and me any harm.

PAOLO721
March 21, 2004, 01:53 PM
by PAOLO721.....What I think Dienekes's may have been saying and I certainly am not trying to speak for him is that.............and this is my belief, carrying concealed is tactically superior to open carry.



by Whitey......If that is true, why then do uniformed police open carry?

I am not sure if you are serious in asking this but in the event that you are I will answer.

They are in uniform and they are LEO's so most folks would assume anyways that they are armed. Carrying concealed for a uniformed LEO would be kind of useless, tactically speaking.

Believe it or not prior to Miami Vice ;) plain clothes LEO's did not run around wearing their badges in plain view as well as their weapons everywhere they went while on duty. There has been an edict passed down from command staff in the PD that my brother serves in to all plain clothes LEO's. Do Not be seen running around with your weapon in plain sight, (open carry) if you insist upon doing so, we can arrange to have you put back in uniform."

OEF_VET
March 21, 2004, 04:00 PM
I carry concealed primarily, but do carry openly occassionally. BTW, TN issues Handgun Carry Permits, so either way is legal here.

If I'm at the range or somewhere that I feel certain people won't be alarmed by the presence of a gun, I'll carry openly.

If I'm in town, where there is a greater chance of someone reacting negatively, then I'll carry concealed. The last thing I need is to have some soccer-mom call the cops and report a man with a gun. She may not know it's legal (maybe she's a recent transplant from Jersey), and she's just doing what she feels is right. I highly doubt the dispatcher at the 911 call center is going to take the time to fill her in on TN laws, they'll just dispatch a cop to check it out. I'd rather throw a jacket on over my weapon or carry a smaller weapon under my T-shirt than take the time to show the cops my permit; after they've executed a felony traffic stop and have me sitting on the side of the road for all to rubberneck at.

I also feel it gives a slight tactical advantage. Two of the more basic principles of combat are : 1) know your enemy and 2) keep your enemy from knowing everything about you. If someone is dead-set on getting my money, watch, life, etc., they're going to do whatever it takes to get it. If they know I'm armed, they'll just do something to give themselves the advantage of surprise. Yeah, seeing an armed man might deter some criminals, but not the truly desperate, truly intelligent or truly devoted ones. I'd rather keep the advantage of knowing my capabilities in my court, rather than giving it to them.

Just my opinions. They've served me well as a permit holder for 7 1/2 years, I'm sure they'll serve for quite a few more years.

Frank

PS - When I lived in Maine, it was pointed out to me that even though you might be legally carrying open, you can still be held accountable for anything that might arise from you doing so. The example given to me was this: You're walking down the street with a legal gun in the open. Some older lady sees it and not knowing your intentions, becomes frightened. This causes her to have a heart attack and crash her car into a busload of kids from the high school band, killing them in a fiery inferno. If her attack can be directly related to you carrying, the after-effects of that heart attack are therefore your responsibility. The hard part is proving that the heart attack was caused by seeing you with a gun. However, if the only survivor is the womans' young granddaughter, who was sitting in the passenger seat and can testify that Grandma saw you and had a heart attack, you're quite likely looking at wearing an orange jumpsuit for the foreseeable future. (It's amazing how jury's can be sympathetic to young girls with tears in their eyes, as they recall watching Grandma die in front of them.)

Rickstir
March 21, 2004, 06:40 PM
I am in the transition stage. Always open carry when I can, and where I live that is most of the places I visit. Now we have CCW, and I am awaiting my permits. Right now I can have concealed in the car, but must wear open until the little piece of paper arrives. :D

Mr. Clark
March 21, 2004, 07:03 PM
PS - When I lived in Maine, it was pointed out to me that even though you might be legally carrying open, you can still be held accountable for anything that might arise from you doing so. The example given to me was this: You're walking down the street with a legal gun in the open. Some older lady sees it and not knowing your intentions, becomes frightened. This causes her to have a heart attack and crash her car into a busload of kids from the high school band, killing them in a fiery inferno. If her attack can be directly related to you carrying, the after-effects of that heart attack are therefore your responsibility. The hard part is proving that the heart attack was caused by seeing you with a gun. However, if the only survivor is the womans' young granddaughter, who was sitting in the passenger seat and can testify that Grandma saw you and had a heart attack, you're quite likely looking at wearing an orange jumpsuit for the foreseeable future.


This was, in all likelihood, meant to scare you. I was told a similar story to try to discourage me from open carry as well. Open carry is legal here. It was told by a cop and involved walking down the street with a visible handgun and charges of disturbing the peace, causing panic, etc., etc.

By law, for any type of charge like that to stick the underlying act must be illegal. Merely being in possession of a legal object in a legal manner is not enough to do it. Not that some cop wouldn’t know that and try to arrest you, or hassle you in some other way, but I can’t imagine it getting past a DA.

On the other hand, if I brandished the weapon, and there was no threat to me or anyone else, in addition to brandishing, I could be charged with disturbing the peace, causing panic, etc. If someone were to take off all of their clothes, wrap aluminum foil around their heads, pick up a gun and run down the street and an old lady saw that and had a heart attack, I guess the person could be held responsible. Assuming they had a terrible lawyer that wouldn’t use the act as evidence they were insane and, therefore, not responsible.

idd
March 21, 2004, 08:24 PM
As has been said, in Texas there is no open carry.

That is an incorrect description of Texas law.

If you are carrying a handgun as a concealed handgun licensee under Texas Government Code § 411 Subchapter H, then YES, it must be concealed. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf

HOWEVER, if you are carrying pursuant to Texas Penal Code § 46.15, then you may legally carry it open or concealed. http://tinyurl.com/2kl9a

Assuming that you carried a sidearm in accordance with Texas Penal Code § 46.15 as interpreted by the appellate courts, then it is not an offense, whether you have a CHL or not, whether you carry open or concealed.

BUT you can expect to get stopped by the first LEO who sees you and asked about it. You might even get cuffed and brought downtown to explain to a prosecutor. You might get indicted, charged, and tried.

Legal? Yes.
Smart? No.

If you are in Texas, the smart move is to carry concealed unless you are hunting or at the range, your place of business, or on your own property.

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