Undersized chambers


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Rojelio
July 9, 2013, 08:40 PM
All this talk about undersized chambers, I decided to do a little test.

I have an 1851 Euroarms 44 with a spare cylinder. The chambers on both cylinders measure .444 and the barrel slugged at .450 (grooves) and .442 (lands).

I reamed the chambers in 1 cylinder to .451 and left the other one as is. When I shoot them side by side, it should tell me if it makes a difference.

May not get to shoot till next week. Still have to replace the front sight. The last time I shot it, the sight went into a time warp:(.

A couple of pics:

Indicating a chamber.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb280/rojelio0/IMAG0248_zpsb8cd8baa.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/rojelio0/media/IMAG0248_zpsb8cd8baa.jpg.html)

reaming a chamber.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb280/rojelio0/IMAG0250_zpsffcd91bc.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/rojelio0/media/IMAG0250_zpsffcd91bc.jpg.html)

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rodwha
July 9, 2013, 08:53 PM
I'm all ears!

tscmmhk
July 9, 2013, 09:05 PM
I have an old ASM 1860 Colt Army that has almost the same dimensions as your revolver. Based on your test results, she might get reamed!!

Smokin'Joe
July 9, 2013, 10:09 PM
Rojelio, Please try to recover the balls and check out the rifling grooves. See if the grooves are deeper on the balls from the reamed cylinder.

Rojelio
July 9, 2013, 10:30 PM
Rojelio, Please try to recover the balls and check out the rifling grooves. See if the grooves are deeper on the balls from the reamed cylinder

Joe, I'll have to rig up something to stop the balls. I usually shoot at a metal plate and they just splatter.

Maybe a box of sand. Any suggestions?

Smokin'Joe
July 9, 2013, 11:03 PM
Plastic water jugs.

Willie Sutton
July 10, 2013, 08:31 AM
I think you'll see a difference, I've certainly had better results after than before.

And who could ever live life without a Bridgeport in the garage?

Brownells does sell piloted reamers than can be used as hand reamers for those without machine tool access. It can be done on a kitchen table with the piloted reamers.


Best,

Willie

.

Hellgate
July 10, 2013, 12:14 PM
I tried the same thing a few years ago but did not have a piloted reamer but I did have a crummy chinese made vise for my drill press. I hand turned the reamer mounted in the press but the vise did not hold the cylinders vertically and I ruined about 4 of the 6 cylinders I "reamed" to .450. Lesson learned. Fortunately I could buy replacement cylinders for the ASMs & Ubertis. I basically reamed myself on that one (still hurts). Looks like you have the correct tools to do it right.

Rojelio
July 10, 2013, 01:03 PM
Looks like you have the correct tools to do it right.

Yes, everything went smooth. It just took a while to indicate each chamber. If I had a rotary table, it would have went a lot faster. The chambers turned out nice.

Marlin 45 carbine
July 10, 2013, 03:34 PM
looking forward to range results.
there's some fella that reams and deepens chambersto hold a bit more powder as well as fit the slugs/balls.
seems he's a bit pricey though.

Rojelio
July 10, 2013, 06:08 PM
there's some fella that reams and deepens chambersto hold a bit more powder as well as fit the slugs/balls.


I only reamed down to the rebated area on the cylinder. Past that would probably be dangerous.

mykeal
July 10, 2013, 06:36 PM
there's some fella that reams and deepens chambersto hold a bit more powder as well as fit the slugs/balls.
I suspect you're thinking of David Clements Guns. He only does that to Ruger Old Army's.

4v50 Gary
July 10, 2013, 07:41 PM
I want a Bridgeport.

I met a gunsmith who takes about 3 days to go from a plank of wood to a shaped stock. He doesn't use a duplicator but rather a milling machine.

kituwa
July 10, 2013, 09:07 PM
Ruger cylinders are heavy duty and have more to play around with.Colt and remington cylinders are pretty thin on the .44 ones especialy where the bolt notch is at.If you look at a colt you will see that the bolt notch is off cinter from the cambers, that is why, a reminton is off center too but not as much as the colt. They make something called cratex, it is rubber impregnated with grit and you can get it in disks of diffrent sizes and shapes and in bullet point shape and also in a longer flat end stick that you can use in a holder to do engine turning or jewling on meteal.One of that would be nice to polish up the bottom of the chambers because they are usually rather rough and makes them really hard to clean up.The bottom of the chamber is rounded somewhat but the cratex shapes itself to fit.Just an idea to try if you can get a hold on some cratex.

Willie Sutton
July 10, 2013, 11:43 PM
^^ What's the point?


As for reaming, you are taking a few thou out of the mouth of the cylinder, you do not need to ream down further than wherethe ogive of the ball will be seated.


Willie

.

kituwa
July 11, 2013, 12:52 AM
Willie, i was answering someone up a little that was talking about having the chambers reamed so it would hold more powder. You can do that a bit on a Ruger but a bad idea on a Colt or Remington.

mykeal
July 11, 2013, 10:02 AM
Ok, let's get back on the page here.

Reaming the chambers refers to increasing the diameter in order to prevent the lead ball from being reduced during loading to a size that's too small for the groove-to-groove diameter. It is NOT done to increase the amount of powder the cylinder can hold.

Dave Clements machines the Ruger Old Army cylinders DEEPER to increase powder capacity. It's an entirely different operation. He will also, for substantially more money, machine the chambers AND the barrel to .50 caliber; this is not 'reaming'.

kituwa
July 11, 2013, 10:34 AM
Mikeal, actually he make a whole new cylinder, its a 5 shot cylinder and a new barrel.And you are right, he deepens the ruger chambers, rugers already are the right size for the barrel groove to start with.To ream colt and Remington cylinders to make them to groove size does not remove much metal from the chambers but you dont want to go any deeper than the balls would normally seat.

Rojelio
July 15, 2013, 07:39 PM
I had time to do a quick test today before I got rained out. I shot the reamed cylinder first. The first shot went high just off the target so I changed my point of aim to the bottom of the target and shot the remaining 5 shots.

I cleaned the bore and shot 5 of the undreamed cylinder (to be fair) on the next target.

Targets were 25 yds. and shot off a rest.

The only difference in the load was I used .451 balls in the unreamed cylinder and .454 balls in the reamed cylinder. Powder was 27 grains of Goex fff. Bore butter on top of the balls.

I realize this is not a scientific test, but, More testing to come when I get more time. Keep in mind I'm not a very good shot with a handgun.

Smokin'Joe, I'm still trying to collect enough water jugs to do your test.

Anyway, reamed cylinder target on the left. Looks like it made a difference.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb280/rojelio0/8621eff1-9df3-4294-bc6a-8fe07852d202_zpsf583d42e.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/rojelio0/media/8621eff1-9df3-4294-bc6a-8fe07852d202_zpsf583d42e.jpg.html)

rodwha
July 15, 2013, 09:17 PM
That sure did make for quite an improvement! Good job!

I've really been wanting to get a Remington 1863, and have heard how off the chambers are compared to the grooves. It just doesn't make sense not to.

Smokin'Joe
July 15, 2013, 09:30 PM
Rojelio, Thanks for performing this test. Many readers are interested in your results.

Dan D
July 17, 2013, 01:28 AM
Thanks for sharing. It does seem to make a substantial difference,
Dan

Dan D
July 17, 2013, 01:30 AM
I'm assuming you're planning on reaming the other cylinder as well?
Thanks,
Dan

Rojelio
July 17, 2013, 10:04 AM
I'm assuming you're planning on reaming the other cylinder as well?

Yep, and several others after I get my milling machine set back up and re-leveled. I moved it and my lathe into a new shop yesterday so I'm out of commission till I get everything back in order.:(

d-a
July 17, 2013, 10:49 AM
Your test mirrors the results I got when I reamed my cylinder on my ASP '58 Remington

d-a

tscmmhk
July 17, 2013, 07:15 PM
Rojelio,

Thanks for the info. I going to try it on my old 1860. One question, Brownells has a hand ream that looks like it might work. Since I don't have the tooling, I was wondering if you have ever used one?

kituwa
July 17, 2013, 08:32 PM
If you have a good drill press you can use the hand reamer in it. You will need a drill press vice that has a verticle grove cut in it or a V-block like in the pics here on his mill table. Then you will have to make sure your table on your drill press is level-square. You can check that with a rod with a bend in it chucked up in the drill press with a dial indicator. Then ream the chambers but just turn the chuck by hand not with the power on. Use a little cutting oil,tap oil or kerosene on the reamer. It will turn pretty easy because it wont be removing much metal anyway. Set the stop on your drill press shallow at first and reset until it reams just in as far as you will ever seat a ball. If you are turning the chuck by hand it would be very hard to mess anything up like that.

Rojelio
July 17, 2013, 08:34 PM
tscmmhk, is this the one you're talking about?
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/barrel-blanks-tools/reamers/throating-reamers/revolver-cylinder-throating-reamer-prod7700.aspx
I've never used one, I use chucking reamers. That one would ream only about half the depth of the chamber which would be deep enough. It comes with a .448 pilot which would work in my piettas but the cylinder in my Euroarms is .444. The pilot pack is another $50.

Maybe someone else here has used one.

kituwa
July 17, 2013, 08:39 PM
That brownells reamer would work by hand without a drill press if you used the pilot. Its kind of pricey but you could prolly rent it out here and make a good bit of your money back.

Rojelio
July 17, 2013, 08:39 PM
If you have a good drill press you can use the hand reamer in it. You will need a drill press vice that has a verticle grove cut in it or a V-block like in the pics here on his mill table. Then you will have to make sure you table on your drill press is level-square. You can check that with a rode with a bend in it chucked up in the drill press with a dial indicator. Then ream the chambers but just turn the chuck by hand not with the power on. Use a little cutting oil,tap oil or kerosene on the reamer. It will turn pretty easy because it wont be removing much metal anyway. Set the stop on your drill press shallow at first and reset until it reams just in as far as you will ever seat a ball. If you are turning the chuck by hand it would be very hard to mess anything up like that

And don't ever turn your reamer backwards.

tscmmhk
July 17, 2013, 09:29 PM
Yes, that's the Brownell reamer I was talking about And yes, I would have to buy the pilot set. If it works OK on the 1860 Army, then I have a couple Remy's and a Walker that might get their cylinders reamed. Your test results show significant improvement in accuracy.

Jim K
July 17, 2013, 09:43 PM
If you think about it, a percussion revolver is a breech loader. Muzzle loading rifles use bullets/balls that are bore diameter or less (if patched) so they can be loaded into the barrel. Breech loading cartridge guns use bullets that are groove diameter so they have to be engraved by the rifling, giving the best accuracy and seal.

But a percussion revolver is not loaded from the muzzle; its chamber effectively acts like a cartridge case. And the ID of the chambers should be the groove (not the bore) diameter of the barrel. Bullets/balls must, of course, be sized accordingly. When a smaller bullet/ball is used, it might or might not expand (upset) enough to fill out the grooves.

FWIW, the chamber mouths of a nearly-new condition original Colt 1860 measure .4505". Civil War conicals and balls generally ran .451-460".

Jim

Rojelio
July 17, 2013, 10:08 PM
Yes, that's the Brownell reamer I was talking about And yes, I would have to buy the pilot set. If it works OK on the 1860 Army, then I have a couple Remy's and a Walker that might get their cylinders reamed. Your test results show significant improvement in accuracy

You may have to get Dave Kiff at PT&G to make you a smaller pilot. It looks like .448 is the smallest pilot in that set. I've got one revolver with smaller chambers than that (.444).

Whoops, those are made by Manson. Dave Manson will work with you,too to get the right size pilot.

Rojelio
July 23, 2013, 04:18 PM
I've got a Euroarms 1858 Remington 44 that has never been accurate. It's another one with .444 chambers and was on my list to do the ream job to.
To make a long story short, I bought a box of Remington ASM parts and in there was a cylinder. I measured the chambers and they were .450. Well lo and behold that thing fit my Euroarms like a glove.

I tested it today against my original cylinder and I still can't believe the results. At 25 yds. I only hit the paper with 3 shots with the .444 cylinder and you can see what the .450 cylinder did.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb280/rojelio0/aae7adb8-edbe-41b5-8b4f-99bdbdf07367_zpsbe7d7b5b.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/rojelio0/media/aae7adb8-edbe-41b5-8b4f-99bdbdf07367_zpsbe7d7b5b.jpg.html)

Hellgate
July 24, 2013, 12:05 AM
Looks like you need a taller front sight. Euroarms made them because I have replaced at least two on my Euros that shot high. I got them from www.ssfirearms.com/‎
They are about 1/8" taller than the stock sights.

Rojelio
July 24, 2013, 12:26 AM
Hellgate, was that a dovetailed front sight from SSFIREARMS? Mine is dovetailed.

Hellgate
July 24, 2013, 12:28 AM
Yup!

Rojelio
July 24, 2013, 12:39 AM
Great! Thanks, looks like they have it in stock.

Noz
October 25, 2013, 09:42 AM
A single voice crying alone.
I had a pair of beautiful 1860 Ubertis reamed by a gunsmith.
I disliked the way they shot to the point of selling them. No particular reason, I just didn't like them after that. Felt*"funny".

Hellgate
October 27, 2013, 02:38 PM
Noz,
They probably kicked more. I noticed one of my pair of 44 "Navies" was reamed and it kicks a little more than its brother. In the heat of competition as a CAS match I can't tell. The one cylinder was only reamed from .448 to .450. I never bothered to check if it was more accurate. At CAS ranges it's not much of an issue.

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