Carnivore vs Parang


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Hunter125
July 11, 2013, 05:15 PM
I have been looking at getting a small machete for defensive/emergency purposes, kind of as a tool/weapon to keep in my emergency pack.

I have been looking at the Gerber Parang and almost bought one last night, but saw a Camillus Carnivore there for a few dollars cheaper. They are very different, but I ended up with the Carnivore last night. Seemed a little more suited to an all around tool, if a little less toward the weapon side. I will probably get both eventually, but I wanted to get your opinions on the pros and cons of these two.

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Piraticalbob
July 11, 2013, 05:22 PM
The Gerber Bear Grylls Parang has been recalled. (http://www.gerbergear.com/Frontpage/Meet-Gerber/Product-Info/Product-Notifications/Bear-Grylls-Parang-Recall)

Hunter125
July 11, 2013, 05:54 PM
Right, but only some runs I believe. They had specific model numbers in the recall notice. They wouldn't still be selling them if they were still the batch that had been recalled.
Update: Yep, only specific model numbers were recalled. Gerber told people to send them back and they would send a replacement. New ones are okay.

mdauben
July 11, 2013, 06:07 PM
Right, but only some runs I believe. They had specific model numbers/serial numbers in yhe recall notice. They wouldn't still be selling them if they were still the batch that had been recalled.

I don't know, maybe I'm just being snobby but I wouldn't have bought one even before the recall. I refuse to pay extra for some celebrities name on a functional tool, especially someone like Bear Gryls. IMO there are better choices out there for the same or less money. I'd check out the offerings from Condor, Tramontina, Martindale, or other companies that make real working machetes.

If you want a parang style machete, Martindale makes a good, basic one w/ full tang for about the same price. IIRC, Martindale makes machetes for the British military. I've got one an I've been happy with it.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-29358752693524_2271_6446698

Sam Cade
July 11, 2013, 06:24 PM
I have been looking at the Gerber Parang and almost bought one last night


Please don't.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=718754

Even post recall they are dangerous.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=184937&d=1370543449

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=184936&d=1370543393


but saw a Camillus Carnivore there for a few dollars cheaper


Take it back if you can. It is even more dangerous than the Gerber.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJyoGvEXPwA

JShirley
July 11, 2013, 06:26 PM
Previously, I was the "big chopper" guy on THR.

I am, however, rapidly being replaced by Sam Cade. :D

(Which is just fine.)

John

Sam Cade
July 11, 2013, 06:35 PM
If you want a parang style machete, Martindale makes a good, basic one w/ full tang for about the same price.

That is a #2 Golok

3/4 tang.

Good tools, rough out of the box, kinda short and heavy for true machete type tasks and could greatly benefit from a serious regrinding.

I'll put up some Martindale related reviews in the next week or so once things dry out around here a bit.

In the meantime, my favorite Martindale is the 18" 702.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=186232&stc=1&d=1373582168

Sam Cade
July 11, 2013, 06:50 PM
Previously, I was the "big chopper" guy on THR.

I am, however, rapidly being replaced by Sam Cade. :D


Birds of a feather bro! :cool:

We do seem to be in remarkable accord in regards to cutting/chopping/stabbing implements and their usage.

Hunter125
July 11, 2013, 07:24 PM
Yikes! I guess I should have done my homework before I dropped $25. I will definitely save my receipt from that one.

As to the gimmicky thing about the Parang, I would usually steer clear of that stuff too, and im by no means a fan of Grylls, I just really liked the style of that particular knife.

Seriously, how hard would it have been to make both of those full tang?

So any other suggestions on other quality blades of similar style?

Sam Cade
July 11, 2013, 07:33 PM
So any other suggestions on other quality blades of similar style?

If you want a parang, get a real one.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=185801&stc=1&d=1372556571

http://www.machetespecialists.com/bitoma.html

I can vouch that quality is eccelent on the half dozen I have seen.



They are only about $10 in Malaysia but shipping is killer.

Observations:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=721092

Group buy anyone?

Hunter125
July 11, 2013, 10:46 PM
Can you explain to me why the tang on those is better than the Gerber Parang?

Sam Cade
July 11, 2013, 11:24 PM
Ca mnemonic you ecplain to me why the tang on those is better than the Gerber Parang?

Auto-correct/complete strikes!!! :D


The tang on the bidor-built Parang is more than 5/16" thick and has a single 7/32" hole in a non stressed position.

The tang on the Gerber is 3/32" and has a big hole punched right through a heavily stressed area, leaving very little meat connecting the blade to the tang.

http://bushcraft.ro/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Parang_Bear_Grylls_Broken_004.jpg

Who knows how many of these things have blown up in peoples faces.

hso
July 12, 2013, 12:10 AM
Seriously, how hard would it have been to make both of those full tang?

People obsess about "full tang" when it is not a critical issue. It has become a marketing gimmick far too often when what's important, as pointed out, is the design of the tang, hardness, relationship of holes to mate the grip to the blade. If you through harden the whole chopper, tang and all, and then place your grip holes at stress points you end up with broken tangs unless they're really thick. The width of the tang doesn't help you much since the crack will start at the hole and propagate out the the edge if width is all a tang has going for it.

Hunter125
July 12, 2013, 01:55 AM
Auto-correct/complete strikes!!! :D

Yeah, sorry about that. Fixed it.

Good to know about the tang thickness being more important than the width.

How do you find out or know how the blade has been hardened or how much of the blade has been hardened?

You guys sure are a helpful bunch.

Hunter125
July 12, 2013, 02:11 AM
What do you all think of Condor Knife & Tool parangs? Are they good quality?

Snowdog
July 12, 2013, 08:02 AM
Maybe I'm alone here, but I like my Gerber Parang. It's not among those included in the recall and I'll chopped all sorts of things with it. I've used it when it was obvious the task was better suited for an axe or at least a hatchet. It sailed through without incident.

I lost most of my concerns of it breaking on me after I cut down a dead tree with it. It took a while and I don't know how many (hundreds?) of hard chops, but the tree came down.

I've been quite pleased with mine.

JShirley
July 12, 2013, 10:24 AM
I've done more chopping with HI kuks than anything else, including chopping down a full-sized, very healthy tree (ouch).

Almost all kukuris have a "rat-tail" tang, which extends most of the way into the handle. The cheapest/easiest way to apply a handle is to heat the tang, and let it burn its way into a block of wood (kuks with this type handle usually need another handle in a couple years). Despite the crudeness of this method, the tang itself rarely breaks. This is the most common type of kuk handle, which is why buying a quality kuk from someone like HI is usually a better investment than a cheaper kuk of unknown quality.

ANYWAY, my main point is the "full tang" alone isn't an indicator of quality or strength. I even know one well-known maker of handmade knives who has knives that look like full tang, if you don't look very carefully! :D (They're still quality knives.)


John

Sam Cade
July 12, 2013, 10:33 AM
What do you all think of Condor Knife & Tool parangs? Are they good quality?


Condor is the "premium" brand for El Salvadorian hardware manufacturer IMACASA. Sort of the GMC to the IMACASA Chevrolet.
http://www.imacasa.com/index-en.php

Condor tools are generally of quality manufacture but suffer from the occasional lemon and the edges on their heavier blades are often left so thick as to preclude efficient use without a regrind.
I've got a Condor parang, like so:

http://www.condortk.com/uploaded/mod_productos/thumbnails/60940s_725x0.jpg


.... and it is perfect example of a "sharpened pry bar". I've never gotten around to regrinding it. Out of the box it is a tree-beater.




That said, the Condor "Bushcraft Parang" is intriguing provided that the grind goes back as far as it looks like it does.

http://www.condortk.com/uploaded/mod_productos/thumbnails/60953s_725x0.jpg

Sam Cade
July 12, 2013, 10:40 AM
How do you find out or know how the blade has been hardened or how much of the blade has been hardened?


Outside of listed manufacturers specs and a Rockwell tester you can get a general feel for hardness by swiping the blade with a mill file, or if you are a super dork, by using a set of calibrated hardness testing files.

http://www.amazon.com/industrial-scientific/dp/B001CTI7TE


You guys sure are a helpful bunch.

We do try. :D

Hunter125
July 12, 2013, 11:34 AM
Sam, that Bushcraft Parang is the one that piqued my interest. I'm looking for something I can throw in a pack, so the longer ones might not be as handy for my purposes.

Sam Cade
July 12, 2013, 12:14 PM
I'm looking for something I can throw in a pack, so the longer ones might not be as handy for my purposes.


That makes a difference.

Are you looking for a machete or a dedicated chopper?

Hunter125
July 12, 2013, 01:32 PM
I guess kind of an all around tool to keep in my pack that I have with me most of the time. Right now there is a tomahawk in there, but I'm looking for something a little more flexible, more multi-purpose.
I'm looking for something that fits the tool and last ditch weapon category.
I'm not really sure if that fits the chopper or machete category better.
Would I be better served by a differemt style?

Sam Cade
July 12, 2013, 02:20 PM
I'm not really sure if that fits the chopper or machete category better.
Would I be better served by a differemt style?

Well since you are going to be packing it...if you aren't married to the Parang style there are a great many options available for quality, cheap, relatively short (18" blade or less) chopping tools.

Your ideal tool is going to be dependent on your intended usage and the makeup of the vegetation that you will be cutting.

So you are going to have to do a bit of sweating in order to find your ideal.




That said, I recommend the Imacasa 335 Bolo to everyone as a general purpose, middle of the road, woods loafing tool.
http://www.baryonyxknife.com/14spbogrop.html

hso
July 13, 2013, 08:28 AM
Sam,

Got any idea who is producing the blades for Knife Kits?
http://www.knifekits.com/vcom/index.php?cPath=2_384

SuperNaut
July 13, 2013, 10:37 AM
Sam,

Got any idea who is producing the blades for Knife Kits?
http://www.knifekits.com/vcom/index.php?cPath=2_384
Hmmm, those look pretty good.

Sam Cade
July 13, 2013, 11:10 AM
Got any idea who is producing the blades for Knife Kits?

Hard to say but most one piece grip Tramontinas have a drop on the third rivet hole. This one doesn't.


I've never seen the holes having so much offset.

mdauben
July 13, 2013, 04:42 PM
That is a #2 Golok

I was aware that Martindale does call that blade a "golock". I don't claim to be any sort of expert on historical blade terminology but AFAIK manufacturers seem to be pretty casual about getting it right, too. I've seen many seeming similar blades with squared off ends, call both parangs and goloks. I've also seen blades called parangs with rounded or even pointed ends.

I was mainly conveying to the OP that the blade I was showing him was a similar design to the one he asked about, which Gerber identifies right or wrong as a "parang".

Sam Cade
July 13, 2013, 05:11 PM
I was aware that Martindale does call that blade a "golock". I don't claim to be any sort of expert on historical blade terminology but AFAIK manufacturers seem to be pretty casual about getting it right, too.


Martindale does periodically make curved, handshake gripped, "Parang-ish" choppers like the 648 but they are relatively rare on the US market.


Loosely, Parang and Golok both mean something like "Big Knife."

Deltaboy
July 21, 2013, 07:31 PM
Nice looking blades.

the count
July 26, 2013, 02:31 PM
Check out the Cold Steel Kukri machete. Knifetest Knoss did a destruction video on the cheap $20 version and even he was surprised that it almost held out to the very end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6adwuGQyHjM

Hunter125
July 26, 2013, 04:56 PM
I've seen the cold steel Kukri, and I like it. Would it be a good all around blade for a pack?

Sam Cade
July 26, 2013, 05:05 PM
Would it be a good all around blade for a pack?

You could do worse.

You could also do better.

Sure, properly HTed 1055 is hella-tuff... IME, the QA on the Lasher stuff is indifferent at best though.
You could have machetes made of 1075 or 1095 with a more consistent HT for the same money.

Deltaboy
July 26, 2013, 05:14 PM
Check out the Cold Steel Kukri machete. Knifetest Knoss did a destruction video on the cheap $20 version and even he was surprised that it almost held out to the very end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6adwuGQyHjM
Dang gum that cold steel matchet was Tough.

Sam Cade
July 26, 2013, 05:35 PM
Dang gum that cold steel matchet was Tough.


..and soft.

Ay, there's the rub.

Deltaboy
July 26, 2013, 06:49 PM
Yep it was soft but I wonder if a heat and oil quench would take some of the softness out of it.

Sam Cade
July 26, 2013, 07:09 PM
Yep it was soft but I wonder if a heat and oil quench would take some of the softness out of it.

Well...:uhoh:

I suppose it would be possible to cut the handle off of it.
Strip the blade.
Grind off the edge so it wont warp.

...and then redo the HT shooting for a higher RC.


I dunno if that would necessarily be a good usage of resources.

JShirley
July 26, 2013, 07:17 PM
Yup. And with a harder HT, it won't be as tough!

Deltaboy
July 27, 2013, 09:14 AM
Yup. And with a harder HT, it won't be as tough!
Thanks if I get one I will leave it alone.

the count
July 27, 2013, 10:31 AM
Its just physics if you like. Tough and soft, or hard and brittle and anywhere in between. But you cant have very hard without getting very brittle. IMHO Cold Steel found an excellent sweet spot with the Kukri. Hey, show me another $20 machete that will perform like in the knife test video.

JShirley
July 27, 2013, 02:44 PM
IMHO Cold Steel found an excellent sweet spot with the Kukri. Hey, show me another $20 machete

Okay, you don't actually mean a Cold Steel kukuri (http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/CS35ATCJ/Cold-Steel-Gurkha-Kukri-12-inch-VG-1-San-Mai-III-Steel-Blade-Kraton-Handle-Secure-Ex-Sheath)(they've made at least two versions (http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/CS39LGKT/Cold-Steel-Gurkha-Kukri-12-inch-SK-5-High-Carbon-Steel-Blade-Kraton-Handle-Secure-Ex-Sheath)- I had another version besides these two), you mean a "kukri machete (http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/CS97KMIGS/Cold-Steel-97KMIGS-Royal-Kukri-Machete)".

Sam Cade
July 27, 2013, 04:19 PM
Hey, show me another $20 machete that will perform like in the knife test video.

What did it do other than not break?

If you have access to an RC tester, give a Lasher/Cold Steel a few pokes at several locations along the blade and tell us what you find.
;)




SMKW has some IMACASA carbon steel 'chetes for $7 and they are vastly superior tools.


http://www.smkw.com/webapp/eCommerce/prodlist.jsp

Sam Cade
July 27, 2013, 04:20 PM
I had another version besides these two.

The LTC?

Man, that was a good knife.

Hunter125
July 29, 2013, 10:02 AM
Here are the ones I'm looking at as of now - they all happen to be Condor brand

-Discord - I like it eccept it has a much thinner blade than the others
http://www.smkw.com/webapp/eCommerce/products/Condor+Tool+%26amp%3B+Knife/Condor%C2%AE+Discord+Machete/CTK42118HC.html

-Warlock -I like this one a lot
http://www.smkw.com/webapp/eCommerce/products/Condor+Tool+%26amp%3B+Knife/Condor%C2%AE+Warlock+Machete/CTK253125HC.html

-Bushcraft - this might be my favorite, it was the one posted before. Also happens tp be the cheapest. One thing I really like about this one is it has no side snaps on the sheath to get it out.
http://www.smkw.com/webapp/eCommerce/products/Condor+Tool+%26amp%3B+Knife/Condor%C2%AE+Bushcraft+Parang+Machete/CTK42313HC.html

What are the pros/cons of these three?

Sam Cade
July 29, 2013, 11:05 AM
What are the pros/cons of these three?


They are all convex ground so keep that in mind.



-Discord - I like it except it has a much thinner blade than the others


This is a really excellent all around machete but is on the heavy side.

Performance will be generally similar to an OKC.


Useable out of the box. Probably.
Nice handle.

The only one of the three that I'd be willing to work all day with.



-Warlock -I like this one a lot
Short. Heavy for length but distal taper keeps things copacetic. Nice handle.

Useable out of the box. Probably.



-Bushcraft - [/URL]


Nice handle, good ergos.

Powerful chopper.

Useable out of the box. Probably.

Short.

Hunter125
July 29, 2013, 05:06 PM
The only one of the three that I'd be willing to work all day with.
Is that mostly due to the weight, or are there other factors at play in that comment?

Sam Cade
July 29, 2013, 06:18 PM
Is that mostly due to the weight, or are there other factors at play in that comment?


Weight yes, but mostly the lack of length on the other two.


Shorter choppers require bending over farther in order to cut offending vegetation close to the ground, vastly increasing the amount of labor required for a given unit of work.

Bending over sucks.

Especially if you are over 30. :evil:

Shorter blades force the hands into more contact with whatever you are cutting. This sucks if you are clearing a poison ivy mat infested with evil rosebushes, murderous briars and strangling honeysuckle concealed locust trees.

Do not want!!! :eek:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=187053&stc=1&d=1375136251

Hunter125
July 29, 2013, 08:50 PM
That makes sense. But it sounds like the shorter blades might be ideal for my purposes as a pack machete that will only see sporadic/emergency use.

JShirley
July 29, 2013, 09:26 PM
Well, it depends on what you want to cut, I suppose. If you want to chop, you'd be better of with a hatchet. My compromise blade was a 19" Himalayan Imports Chitlangi. It was thinner than almost all of the other kukris, but thicker than almost all machetes are.

It was hell on brush and very small (2-3" around) saplings, but I cut a full-size tree down with it. Once.

Deltaboy
July 30, 2013, 10:25 AM
When camping I carry all 3 folding saw, machete usually 14-16 inch one, and a hatchet or small ax.

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