Question about .38sp +p loads


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gsc3zny
July 13, 2013, 12:43 AM
I am using Hodgdons 4227 powder and went to their load data site and found a Max load of 11 grains, but the minimum field is empty. My Lymans 49th doesn't even show the +p and my Lee manual shows the +p but not the powder I have. what do I do in this situation? Buy more manuals?

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ljnowell
July 13, 2013, 12:47 AM
Reduce a max loading by 10% and work up to it.

gamestalker
July 13, 2013, 07:36 AM
I load quite a bit of +p 38 spcl. and I can't recall seeing 4227 as a powder recommendation in my books. I may have over looked it, but I thought that IMR-4227, if that's what your referring to, is for .357?

I did however find a wealth of +P 38 spcl data on Hogdon's reloading pages. All of those +P loads are all published as max, so use common sense as always when working up. Longshot was the top performer in those loads, and I personally use it in my +P 38's with excellent performance too. I think next in line was HS6, which I have also used and like, just not as much as Longshot.

GS

627PCFan
July 13, 2013, 08:06 AM
I have used imr4831 in loads in the past. Lots of unburned kernels and yellow flame in a jframe. Modest . Get your data from hodgdon online

Rule3
July 13, 2013, 11:01 AM
If the load is reduced it will probably no longer be +P:)

I would still reduce by 10% as safe reloading practice, Some manuals also have DNR do not reduce and list a max only.

What bullet are you using????

Haxby
July 13, 2013, 12:40 PM
I have older, published data showing heavier 4227 loads with 158 gr jacketed bullets, so I would probably just load up a few with 11 gr.
In a good, strong gun, of course.

mdi
July 13, 2013, 01:03 PM
When only one load is listed, no min-max, reduce that load 10% for starting loads (normal reloading rule of thumb). 4227 is pretty slow for .38 Special, and if you could find another, faster burning powder, you'd get better results, mebbe some Unique, Universal, W231...

Hondo 60
July 13, 2013, 01:23 PM
ljnowell has the right answer.

Reduce by 10% (one grain), so start at 10 grains & work up.

ArchAngelCD
July 13, 2013, 11:02 PM
I have used imr4831 in loads in the past. Lots of unburned kernels and yellow flame in a jframe. Modest . Get your data from hodgdon online
I'm guessing that's a typo since that powder is a very slow rifle powder, not a handgun powder. It does well in the 300 Win Mag but I highly doubt you can get enough of it in a handgun case to even light that powder off.

ArchAngelCD
July 13, 2013, 11:06 PM
I am using Hodgdons 4227 powder and went to their load data site and found a Max load of 11 grains, but the minimum field is empty. My Lymans 49th doesn't even show the +p and my Lee manual shows the +p but not the powder I have. what do I do in this situation? Buy more manuals?
When there is only a Max charge listed for a powder while there are min/max charges for other powders in the same publication that usually means you should not reduce that powder off the Max recommended charge weight.

If a powder is not listed for use in a cartridge there is usually a very good reason, especially from the powder company. If the manufacturer doesn't recommend it's use it's not suitable for that caliber/bullet combination.

Walkalong
July 13, 2013, 11:14 PM
4227 is borderline too slow for .38 Spl, even at +P levels, so I would be prone to reduce no more than 5% to start, but yes, the norm is 10%.

Expect unburned powder.

ljnowell
July 13, 2013, 11:29 PM
4227 is borderline too slow for .38 Spl, even at +P levels, so I would be prone to reduce no more than 5% to start, but yes, the norm is 10%.

Expect unburned powder.

I posted the 10% as its the general rule for most any load, with few exceptions. 4227 however is something I wouldnt load in 38 anyway. Fact is, I bought a pound of it one time and tried it in 38 special, 45 colt, and 357 mag. It wasnt bad in 357 mag but in 45 colt and 38 special you really couldnt use enough of it to make a decent load. It suffered from very poor burn and the accuracy really wasnt great because of it. I would guess that if shot over a chrono the ES and SD would be very poor.

Jesse Heywood
July 14, 2013, 02:31 AM
I have been shooting 38 spl. 158 gr lead with 4227, it is one of my better loads.

Looking at Hogdon's website, it shows 11 gr for 158 jacketed in the +P. Also look at the 38 spl (not +P). They show 9.0 -10.0 gr. Feel free to reduce as low 9.0 gr as the case and bullet are the same. I would start at 10.0 gr and work up to 11.0.

627PCFan
July 14, 2013, 01:35 PM
Sorry, meant the NEW IMR4227.

4831 was a typo.

Steve C
July 14, 2013, 02:09 PM
IMR4227 is a slow powder which is best used in magnum handgun and small rifle cartridges. As such it is a poor choice for the .38 spl. The load given in the manual is probably the only load of use that will work in the low pressure .38 spl without copious amounts of unburned powder or residue.

bluetopper
July 14, 2013, 05:30 PM
There is good advice here.......don't use 4227 powder for 38 Special.

Why would you use it in the first place when there are a wide array of better choices out there?

4227 is a super magnum handgun or fast rifle powder.......only.

I use it in 357 Maximum and 500 Magnum.

Do some just not know any better even with sooooo much reloading info readily available?

oneounceload
July 14, 2013, 07:15 PM
Whatever you decide to do, use the data from the powder maker, NOT some out of date printed manual. As good as Lyman, ABC's, etc. all are, they are outdated by the time they are printed. The powder maker websites, however, are updated regularly, since it is THEIR liable butts on the line for bad data. Someone's old manual may have something, but powder formulas change regularly and old data may or may nor be good (unless you are also using old powder to begin with)

Bush Pilot
July 15, 2013, 12:47 PM
I have been shooting 38 spl. 158 gr lead with 4227, it is one of my better loads.

Looking at Hogdon's website, it shows 11 gr for 158 jacketed in the +P. Also look at the 38 spl (not +P). They show 9.0 -10.0 gr. Feel free to reduce as low 9.0 gr as the case and bullet are the same. I would start at 10.0 gr and work up to 11.0.
Are they suggesting or are you using a magnum primer?

Rule3
July 15, 2013, 01:04 PM
Well the OP seems to have disappeared. Still would like to know what bullet he is using.

Just a FYI Hodgdon still lists the data for the 38+P with H4227.

I have not used the powder myself, but they still list it.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

gsc3zny
July 15, 2013, 01:44 PM
No, I am here. I am using a Berrys 158 gr jfp in a Winchester nickel plated case. I used the imr4227 becuase it is what I had and was on the Hodgdkins load data site.I also used Titegroup, since it was on the load data site also, but called for less then half the amount of powder

bluetopper
July 15, 2013, 01:48 PM
Read a reloading manual and you will know why it calls for less than half the powder.

Rule3
July 15, 2013, 02:53 PM
H4227 and Titegroup are two Totally different powders!

H4227 I believe is discontinued but the data is there. There are many other powders better but all the advice given is good. Never start with the max load. reduce it by 10% use up that powder and try to find something mo better:).

Look at this chart and see were the burn rates are. One is really fast, the other is slow.

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

oneounceload
July 15, 2013, 03:35 PM
I am using a Berrys 158 gr jfp

Berry's doesn't make a JACKETED bullet, they are plated, and are not designed to be used with full powered jacketed data

Rule3
July 15, 2013, 06:18 PM
Why not forget about the +P loads and use the regular 38 Special loads?

What is the need for +P with a plated FN anyway? It is just soft lead with a thin plating. If you want a defensive round use Gold Dots, Xtps, Hard Cast LSWC or something else.

Even though the test results out of 7" barrel do not exceed the 1200 fps limit set by Berry for their PLATED bullets you will have less chance of something bad happening.

You can get in more trouble with the Titegroup as it is so dense and fast, if you over charge, well it's not good to do. The 38 special is a big case with just a tiny bit of Titegroup it is hard to see if you doubled it.

ArchAngelCD
July 16, 2013, 01:24 AM
IMO you can build a great .38 Special +P load with those Berry's plated bullets using HS-6. That powder will deliver good velocity while keeping the pressures down and the accuracy is good too.

oldcelt
July 16, 2013, 10:18 AM
4227 worked for me in the 38-44 S&W but not very well in the .38 pl.

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