Disliking on-line gun sales


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ID-shooting
July 14, 2013, 12:12 AM
Have sold and traded online before but this takes the cake.

Posted my Ruger Single Six on local on-line listings. Two hits from there.

One was a guy from Oregon. Told him I could not sell to him legally unless he was willing to Pay FFL transfer fees. Then he says he would a relative who lived in my state pick it up and pay. Told him that was a straw purchase and I would not do that.

Second hit was a guy who agreed on a price but was up front he would refuse to sign a bill of sale nor would he let me copy/record the info from his ID. I told him to buy someone else's gun.

Both gave me sob stories about not being criminals. My reply to both was, "ya, because criminals ALWAYS come out and declare they are." Note heavy sarcasm.

Sheesh. Am I being too paranoid, restrictive, or stringent?

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MErl
July 14, 2013, 12:18 AM
If not required to go though a FFL does straw purchase even apply? It would be the person that carries it over state lines that gets in any trouble right?

Your gun, your terms. Don't worry about it and find a buyer that'll accept them. Plenty of discussion about BOS here with strong feelings on both sides.

Telekinesis
July 14, 2013, 12:33 AM
On the first one I would say you were right on point. No need to get involved with something like that. The second is more of a personal preference. I've done face to face deals with and without bills of sale, and several where it was just a plain trade and a handshake. The refusal to sign a bill of sale does seem kinda strange, but I completely understand not wanting to give someone else a complete copy of their ID.

I have had a few poor internet transactions lately as well. One scam on a gun I have been trying to find for a few years, and another seller who just wouldn't respond to my offer to buy his gun. I guess its just one of those things you have to deal with.

JohnKSa
July 14, 2013, 12:35 AM
If not required to go though a FFL does straw purchase even apply?It wouldn't be a straw purchase because that's a very narrowly defined crime. But it would definitely be a crime to participate in an attempt to circumvent the federal laws that require interstate firearm sales to go through an FFL.

Rock185
July 14, 2013, 12:42 AM
ID, you absolutely did the right thing, IMHO.

22-rimfire
July 14, 2013, 01:14 AM
I'm glad you had the fortitude to say NO to these potential sales on the terms of the buyers.

TennJed
July 14, 2013, 01:35 AM
Just put in the add the you "HAVE TO SHOW ID AND SIGN BILL OF SALE NO EXCEPTIONS.......NO OUT OF STATE SALES NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!!'"

Online is a great cheap tool to get your listing in front of a lot of people. Just make it clear in the add. If someone responds and try's to talk you out of it, ignore them until they get the message. You should absolutely not sell to someone out if state.

460Kodiak
July 14, 2013, 01:53 AM
Sounds like you gave them the right answer.

22-rimfire
July 14, 2013, 02:36 AM
Just put in the add the you "HAVE TO SHOW ID AND SIGN BILL OF SALE NO EXCEPTIONS.......NO OUT OF STATE SALES NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!!'"

Online is a great cheap tool to get your listing in front of a lot of people. Just make it clear in the add. If someone responds and try's to talk you out of it, ignore them until they get the message. You should absolutely not sell to someone out if state.
That will scare off a certain portion of potential buyers. But from my point of view, good riddin. Many simply do not want to answer any questions and it raises red flags for me. Yes, make the listing clear. I might add, no out of state sales except through a FFL dealer.

Sam1911
July 14, 2013, 02:36 AM
The first one -- as JohnKSa said, is not a straw purchase (because no one is filling out the paperwork) but is pretty clearly setting up to break federal law.

The second one is just personal preference. If you're going to require to COPY DOWN someone's identifying information, PLEASE say so up front. Don't drag some guy halfway across your state just to spring on him that you'll require having his identity on record.

If participating in a private sale, a seller can SEE my state ID, but they may not record it. Bill of sale is fine by me. I'll sign it, but I'm not putting all my personal ID info on it.

22-rimfire
July 14, 2013, 02:40 AM
It is real easy to just photograph the ID these days with a cell phone. Not saying that I would like it much, but it is not hard. You can also just put a piece of tape over the address. View it but don't record it.

ATCDoktor
July 14, 2013, 02:41 AM
Second hit was a guy who agreed on a price but was up front he would refuse to sign a bill of sale nor would he let me copy/record the info from his ID. I told him to buy someone else's gun.

I have purchased a wheel barrow full of guns over the course of my life in private sales with nothing exchanged but the money, a handshake and a smile.

I will go on to share that under no circumstances would I let a random person copy my info off an ID regardless of the circumstances.

I will follow that up with that I would not allow anyone in any private firearms transaction to know my address or know where I live and that I have guns in my home.

Never.

No one on this planet owns a firearm rare enough/cool enough or interesting enough to allow me to handover my personal info to a private individual.

If your state requires this kind of follow up then I would expect that handling the transaction through an FFL would be in order as their paperwork is bound by the Privacy Act and is treated with the same as if it were personal tax information.

If this is just "you" requiring this info (and not the state) then "you" probably need evaluate how your conducting your sales.

If the state does not require you to gather this info then why are you asking for it?

What are you going to use it for?

Is it a "Just in Case" with regards to police follow up on a crime committed with a weapon that no longer belongs to you?

Regardless of whether or not you have extracted any info from an individual during a private transaction, if that firearm is used in a crime and there's a 4473 for that firearm with your name on it, your gonna get a visit from the cops.

This kind of police interaction happens everyday with regards to weapons sold legally between sellers with no documentation and the outcome is always the same "I sold the gun to some dude at a gunshow" and thats the end of it.

You want to feel good about the sale, consign it to an FFL have them do the paperwork and let them worry who they are selling to and collecting and storing personal data.

12131
July 14, 2013, 02:41 AM
You ask me for a copy of my ID/DL for a FTF deal? I'd tell you to hit the road, too. You can take a glance at it, but you ain't getting a copy.

Impureclient
July 14, 2013, 02:44 AM
What does having a copy of someone's ID do after you sell off a gun?

22-rimfire
July 14, 2013, 02:47 AM
It is simply a record of precisely who you sold a firearm to; nothing more. I have done sales both ways. It just depends. I always record to whom I sell a firearm to in my computer files if I have the information. I really don't care where they live as long as it is in the same state as me.

You see, I would rather sell the gun to a FFL dealer or toss it in the landfill than do something that bothers me in terms of a private sale.

ATCDoktor
July 14, 2013, 03:44 AM
I always record to whom I sell a firearm to in my computer files if I have the information.

So you sell a gun in a private sale, you demand and receive the buyers personal info, store it in your computer, he takes the gun and kills a hundred school kids and you having his personal info in your computer is going to do what exactly?

Make you feel better?

Please.

It serves no purpose to extract this info from buyers during private sales.

Having it/storing it will not prevent a crime unless the seller is committing a crime by not gathering it.

The rules for private sales in my state say that I have to "sight" the ID. All I have to do is "see" it and that's all I do.

TennJed
July 14, 2013, 04:15 AM
So you sell a gun in a private sale, you demand and receive the buyers personal info, store it in your computer, he takes the gun and kills a hundred school kids and you having his personal info in your computer is going to do what exactly?

Make you feel better?

Please.

It serves no purpose to extract this info from buyers during private sales.

Having it/storing it will not prevent a crime unless the seller is committing a crime by not gathering it.

The rules for private sales in my state say that I have to "sight" the ID. All I have to do is "see" it and that's all I do.

I am not required to even look at them in my state and I don't. But I can respect someone wanting to do it. I traded a gun a couple of years ago to a guy that was just a fascinating man with a ton of unusual guns. Didn't even bother to get his name. I really wish I had because I would love to do business with him again. I have no idea how to contact him.

The best thing about all this is you do not have to buy from them if you don't like his rules. Crazy how these things work. You can shop elsewhere if you don't want to meet his requirements. His gun, his rules

ATCDoktor
July 14, 2013, 04:33 AM
The best thing about all this is you do not have to buy from them if you don't like his rules. Crazy how these things work,

Certainly true and I have refused this kind of invasive nonsense many times but with that said, the op's the one crying that he can't get anyone to play by "his" rules and allow him to copy their info off an ID.

His gun, his rules but don't come here crying a river because you can't get folks to be stupid with their personal info, especially when the state doesn't require it.

And especially when it (private collection of personal info) serves absolutely no purpose under the sun with respect to disposing of his firearm (other than satisfying his internal need to gather it).

Again, this is his post speaking to his recent dislike of online gun sales because he can't get people to let him copy info off their license/sign a document.

I'm just pointing out that his requests are unreasonable especially if the state doesn't require him to gather that info.

He should lighten up or sell his guns through an FFL if he wants to be rid of them (unless he's a private investigator and gonna do a background check with the info he's extracting from these people he sells guns to).

ID-shooting
July 14, 2013, 04:40 AM
It is for the lability and creep feeling I got when he told me flat out he wanted a completely paperless transaction without me prompting him. Had he not said that, maybe I would have just glanced at it. My "spidey sense" was going bonkers with this guy.

I agree nothing would prevent the hypothetical killing spree but when the cops showed up to my door, I could at least point them in the right direction.

ATCDoktor
July 14, 2013, 05:15 AM
Well ID I'll back up to your original post and refer to the following:

Sheesh. Am I being too paranoid, restrictive, or stringent?

And will answer your statement by responding yes to all these queries.

Let me share that I'm a retired Marine with 25 years of service and work in a building full of retired Marines who would and do pay a premium for a "No paperwork" sales on firearms.

They aren't criminals (all have secret or above clearances) but will not buy a papered firearm for the unreasonable fear (in my mind) that the "government" that we all work for will (one day) come and take them.

They want them "off the books" (anybody's books) and will pay to have them that way.

They're not criminals, just former Marines who see the direction the country/government is going and would like to legally possess weapons free of documentation.

At present they see that it's still legal to purchase firearms this way (unpapered) and before there's some kind of federal mandate that requires all sales to be handled by an FFL they want to secure all they can get off the "books".

2@low8
July 14, 2013, 06:35 AM
“It serves no purpose to extract this info from buyers during private sales.”

Me: Former uniform patrol officer.

Actual Case #1: Subject, who had a CHL, is arrested for DUI and subsequent pat down produced a stolen firearm. He advised that he bought it from an individual he that could not positively identify. The gun was traced to the owner from whom it was stolen and no one else. The subject was also charged felony possession of stolen property and it stuck.


Me: Former homicide investigator.

Actual Case #2: Deceased victim and the gun used in the homicide is found nearby. The gun is traced to the last registered owner. The owner advises he believes that he legally sold the gun to an individual he could not positively identify. We have no other leads and we focused in on him. There was an ensuing background check, verification of his alibi (which was shaky) and an area canvass of neighbors and friends. It turned out to be a waste of time for us and an inconvenience and mild embarrassment for him.

I would argue the point that it does have a purpose to extract this information. Both the buyer and seller should trade information without photocopying. I do this with the understanding that both may cover up his address and date of birth on the acceptable documents. Buyer is also advised ahead of time that if he does not look of age the date of birth must be exposed. Both the buyer and seller are protected.

ATCDoktor
July 14, 2013, 07:23 AM
2@low8, I appreciate you sharing your real world experience as an LEO along the lines of dealing with illegal use of lawfully purchased firearms.

That stated, I submit that in scenario one, the DUI CHL, you would have arrested him whether or not he could have produced a ream of receipts from his glove box showing who he purchased the firearm from (whether or not they were real/legit).

Burden of proof whether or not he was drunk or in possession of a stolen firearm is on the state. Looks like they proved their case.

I will go on to share that if he was stupid enough to drink and drive it stands to reason he was too stupid to run the serial number of a recently purchased firearm through his local sheriffs office to determine whether or not it was stolen.

Along the lines of sharing ID info, I would be willing to bet every gun I own that in the course of LEO duties you have seen more than one fake ID.

And although you are trained to spot fake id's, we are not and the relative usefulness of requiring ID for a private sale is extremely low/useless based on this alone.

With respect to the second scenario I can only share that that is the way it happens everyday in this country with regards to lawfully transferred firearms used in crimes.

If it's lawfully transferred and used in a crime by the transferee it is your responsibility (the LEO) to follow up to every extent and determine whether or not the transferor was involved in said crime.

Law Enforcement is going to investigate the transferor regardless of documentation it is their responsibility.

Beentown
July 14, 2013, 08:48 AM
Private sales that need any info from me get skipped. I am a CHL and will show you such but that is far as that is going. Not signing a bill of sale either to make you "feel" better. Because that is all it really does.

carbine85
July 14, 2013, 09:03 AM
Quote:
If not required to go though a FFL does straw purchase even apply?
It wouldn't be a straw purchase because that's a very narrowly defined crime. But it would definitely be a crime to participate in an attempt to circumvent the federal laws that require interstate firearm sales to go through an FFL.

It most certainly is a straw purchase as soon as the 1st party tells you someone else is buying it or picking it up for them. The transaction must take place between the 2 parties. You bring in a 3rd party and it can easily become a straw purchase.

Sam1911
July 14, 2013, 10:10 AM
It most certainly is a straw purchase as soon as the 1st party tells you someone else is buying it or picking it up for them. The transaction must take place between the 2 parties. You bring in a 3rd party and it can easily become a straw purchase.Actually NO! It seems like it would be but the law is a bit more specific than that. HAS to be through a dealer.

Here's our "sticky" thread on it: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=700331

JSH1
July 14, 2013, 10:13 AM
Have sold and traded online before....

Sheesh. Am I being too paranoid, restrictive, or stringent?

No, you are not being too restrictive, I do the same. Some people won't buy from you because you want paperwork and some people would not buy from you if you do not require paperwork. I will not buy from or sell to a person that won't do a bill of sale with name and address verified by looking at an ID. It will need to be an in-state ID as well. As others have said, just put your paperwork requirements in your ad.

I went to my first gun show yesterday and there were some shady characters there. Like the guy going from table to table asking if they require paperwork. There was another guy that wouldn't even show an ID to prove he was in-state as required by the gun show. The seller did the right thing and refused to sell to him.

Ohio Gun Guy
July 14, 2013, 12:07 PM
I would not let you have a copy of my ID..... I would show it however, just no copy.

I would not have sold to the out of state guy, scheme either.

I prefer selling FTF at known "GUN" venues, like gun shows or gun shops. Bottom line is, if I'm not comfortable, no sale.

HexHead
July 14, 2013, 12:08 PM
You were right with the first buyer only.

If I'm selling FTF, I'll ask to see a DL, and they can put their thumb over name/address, so I cam match pic to face that they live in my state. I'll ask if they're legally permitted to buy a gun. If they say yes, they hand me money, I hand them gun and we're done. I've done my due diligence

I won't do ANY differently as a buyer. There are plenty of guns in my safe I've filled out 4473s for. And there are some I want no paper trail of. Yeah, I trust our government.

Onward Allusion
July 14, 2013, 12:12 PM
YES. Online sales can be a challenge for the Seller. The overwhelming majority of online gun buyers are newbies who don't know the in's and out's of the process. Even some of the folks on this forum have no clue. I've had hundreds of transactions on Gunbroker and I always cringe when I have someone who is not rated bid or worst, win the auction. Of course, that's not to say that there aren't bad sellers online as well. I also stay away from them, too.

Stating your terms-and-conditions in your auction does little to get your commission charges back in a timely basis if you have an uninformed or unscrupulous auction bidder. The whole Gunbroker and Gunauction process leaves much to be desired. You end up getting charged for the commission and listing fees and then end up waiting a couple of months to have your account credited the amounts. Of course, the big boys are the only games in town for firearm related auctions...

gym
July 14, 2013, 12:25 PM
If you could have seen the guys license or CCW, that would have been sufficient. I don't sign anything that isn't necessary. But it's your gun, legally in my state if he shows me ID and says he isn't restricted, it's a go.

Starz26
July 14, 2013, 12:30 PM
Taking this up a notch, this is a disclaimer sent to me when trying to complete a private purchase of ammo. I told him to go pound sand.

I have no issue signing a statement of fact (i.e. I am over 21, I can own this in my state) but under no circumstances will I sign a document saying what I will or will not do in the future. The seller stated he wanted protection against what I may or may not do with the ammo (irrelevant) but what is to say they did not tamper with it to cause me injury (just as crazy but plausible)....

I, CERTIFY THAT I HAVE READ, UNDERSTAND AND AGREE TO SALES CONDITIONS AND LIABILITY RELEASE AS STATED HEREIN. I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT MERCHANDISE ORDERED MAY BE DANGEROUS TO USE OR STORE AND I UNDERSTAND THE NATURE, SAFETY PRECAUTIONS, CHARACTERISTICS AND RISKS TO HEALTH, OF STORAGE, USE OR OTHER AND PERSONAL CONTROL. I WILL KEEP ALL MERCHANDISE COMPLETELY UNDER MY CONTROL; I WILL USE AND/OR STORE ALL MERCHANDISES OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN AND IN FULL COMPLIANCE WITH LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS. I FULLY, WITHOUT RESERVATION OR CONDITION, AGREE TO ABSOLVE AND HOLD HARMLESS AND INDEMNIFY (Name removed). I FURTHERMORE AGREE TO RE-IMBURSE (Name removed) FOR ANY AND ALL COST, FEES OR EXPENSES IN DEFENSE OF ANY CLAIMS OR JUDGEMENTS THAT MAY ARISE AS A RESULT FROM THE PURCHASE, TRANSPORTATION, HANDLING, POSSESSION, STORAGE, SALE/RESALE AND/OR USE OF MERCHANDISE ORDERED.I AGREE THAT ALL TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS STATEMENT AND SALE APPLY EQUALLY TO ALL PURCHASES, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE . I HAVE READ, UNDERSTAND AND AGREE FULLY, WITHOUT RESERVATION OR CONDITION LISTED HEREIN. This Contract is for the sale of (Name and product removed). Please print this out and sign/ date it as well as print your name at the bottom of this page.Thank You

xxjumbojimboxx
July 14, 2013, 12:41 PM
I don't generally like doing a bill of sales either... Id prefer not to... I let folks see mu license because that is a requirement in my state. They must be a res. of TX. So they can see.. but not record. Ill be honest I've done some transfers where not much more than a hello was said. Nevermind ID's and BOS. On the other hand I bought 5 guns off of a fellow in Chorpus Christie for a STEAL and that was enough motivation for me to let him photocopy my ID, He gave me a copy of his too... so were even :)

danez71
July 14, 2013, 12:58 PM
Actual Case #2: Deceased victim and the gun used in the homicide is found nearby. The gun is traced to the last registered owner. The owner advises he believes that he legally sold the gun to an individual he could not positively identify. We have no other leads and we focused in on him. There was an ensuing background check, verification of his alibi (which was shaky) and an area canvass of neighbors and friends. It turned out to be a waste of time for us and an inconvenience and mild embarrassment for him.



Bingo.

That's my fear. I go camping (very very few witnesses) and someone gets murdered. Sketchy alibi for sure.

Mild embarrassment? You could lose your job if the police come snooping around asking questions and divulging why they're there.


While not perfect, a BOS will do more good than harm for me. I don't see the harm in glancing at ID to make sure the name, face, age, and state are OK.

jj1962hemi
July 14, 2013, 01:01 PM
In the PR of Illinois, one must see a state issued ID card, and log the ID#, name, gun serial #, ETC.,...and keep the records for ten years. This applies to anybody engaged in a "transfer." I take that to mean a buyer or seller.

kimbershot
July 14, 2013, 01:06 PM
well, i am not a fan of face to face transactions--i would never have a stranger come into my house to purchase a firearm. i am also not interested in traveling/meeting to make a sale.

i prefer to sell via gunbroker or a consignment as it also takes me out of a potential legal liability situation.

trying to save/make a couple of extra bucks just isn't worth it.:uhoh:

rgwalt
July 14, 2013, 01:13 PM
I do not require a bill of sale, but I will fill one out if asked minus my address. I will show my CHL, but will ask the other party to do the same, and I tend to only sell to CHL holders if at all possible. I arrange all of my deals through email, so I generally have a name and phone number for everyone I've ever bought from or sold to. With a name, phone number, and date, the police can extract all the info they need to find the person.

The BOS can protect both buyer and seller in the cases mentioned by the previous poster. So, I see why they are useful. As a seller, I would hate to end up as a murder suspect. However, under investigation, it would be tough to produce a relationship/motive for me to kill someone where the only real life link is through someone I sold a gun to. A BOS would circumvent the need to be investigated though.

I wonder about the first case (DUI with a stolen gun). He was charged with possession of stolen property. If he had the paperwork showing who he bought the gun from, would that have changed the ultimate charge? Let us say that he bought it from someone on Armslist, and did not knowingly buy stolen property. Does that change the fact that he was in possession of it? Not sure how the letter of the law is written & interpreted in that case. However, if simply possession of stolen property without knowledge is a crime, then I bet the state would have gone after him... it is a slam dunk case to make a prosecutor's numbers look better, and a great charge to tack on to a DUI.

OP: I don't think you are being too paranoid. However, state upfront in the ad that you require a BOS. Know that you are going to exclude some potential buyers.

skimbell
July 14, 2013, 01:21 PM
...Am I being too paranoid...?
Nope.

Chevelle SS
July 14, 2013, 01:35 PM
If I buy a gun I'll sign a bill of sale or SHOW my ID but I won't let them copy down my address etc. If I'm selling a gun I just ask to see ID, nothing beyond that.

CatManDo
July 14, 2013, 01:37 PM
QUOTE:

"I went to my first gun show yesterday and there were some shady characters there. Like the guy going from table to table asking if they require paperwork. There was another guy that wouldn't even show an ID to prove he was in-state as required by the gun show. The seller did the right thing and refused to sell to him."

That was probably just the ATF moron trying to capture a bad gun seller, or, the local news reporter trying to do a "Giffords" on the sellers.

tahoe2
July 14, 2013, 02:29 PM
ID-shooting; I have always exchanged ID# and bill of sale (gun serial #) with the other party in a gun sale, period.
That's just me, CYA (cover your a#*!) and those I've dealt with, no worries and everyone satisfied with the results.
It's your transaction you should feel comfortable with it.

clg114
July 14, 2013, 03:44 PM
I can understand how one would want a paper trail for a gun, just in case the police come knocking on your door with questions about that gun. I can also understand how you might not want to give personal information to just anyone. It would not be a good thing to have it be common knowledge that you have a house full of guns. Then there's always your personal responsibility to do what you can to keep your gun out of the hands of people who should not have them. On the rare occasions that I want to sell a gun, I take them to one of the local online auctions. They have a FFL and will do the background check. While have bought guns from a private party, I usually buy from a FFL dealer. I know this isn't foolproof, I'm just trying to steer clear of trouble.

TennJed
July 14, 2013, 03:47 PM
Me: Former uniform patrol officer.

Actual Case #1: Subject, who had a CHL, is arrested for DUI and subsequent pat down produced a stolen firearm. He advised that he bought it from an individual he that could not positively identify. The gun was traced to the owner from whom it was stolen and no one else. The subject was also charged felony possession of stolen property and it stuck.


Me: Former homicide investigator.

Actual Case #2: Deceased victim and the gun used in the homicide is found nearby. The gun is traced to the last registered owner. The owner advises he believes that he legally sold the gun to an individual he could not positively identify. We have no other leads and we focused in on him. There was an ensuing background check, verification of his alibi (which was shaky) and an area canvass of neighbors and friends. It turned out to be a waste of time for us and an inconvenience and mild embarrassment for him.

I would argue the point that it does have a purpose to extract this information. Both the buyer and seller should trade information without photocopying. I do this with the understanding that both may cover up his address and date of birth on the acceptable documents. Buyer is also advised ahead of time that if he does not look of age the date of birth must be exposed. Both the buyer and seller are protected.

Thanks for the post. I haven't been recording info on FTT transactions but I might now. Also this goes to show the people here who say it serves no purpose but to feel good are wrong

burrhead
July 14, 2013, 03:58 PM
I posted this when we had this same discussion last week.I don't understand this need to create a paper trail when buying or selling a weapon. I've been buying and selling and trading guns for nearly forty years. I’ve only bought three new guns in my life and everything else has been private sales, ie, no paperwork. Bill of sale, ID check, etc is really much ado about not much.

Your milage obviously varies.

Liberty1776
July 14, 2013, 04:10 PM
2 things - Starz26 - I agree with you. I would not complete the sale.

OP - for a handgun I require to see photo id and state purchase permit or ccw card which functions as a purchase permit too. (I don't require signing paperwork though.) I don't feel it's necessary on a long gun, but then I don't sell many.

AKElroy
July 14, 2013, 04:12 PM
I ask to see ID now. This expectation is set at the first communication from any potential buyer saying I'll take it. I've had a FTF encounter that was very disturbing and dangerous, and I will be more cautious to eliminate meeting anyone FTF that has an issue with me recording who they are as a result of that experience. I know this tics some folks off, and the overwhelming majority are simply good folks trying to protect their privacy. Heck, I'm one of them, and will likely shy away from any seller requiring of me what I will require of a buyer. Yep, I'm a hypocrite. But I have that right, and if folks are clearly notified they can choose whether to do business with me.

huntsman
July 14, 2013, 05:06 PM
It is for the liability .

Are you an attorney or have you run this past an attorney for conformation?

ID theft is enough of a reason why I wouldn't risk letting anybody copy my info, I would sign a bill-of sale as long as you sign a paper that you can legally sell the gun.

Beentown
July 14, 2013, 05:36 PM
On line sales are my favorite choice for selling. Ship to FFL and paper trail is done.

Even if I plan to sell locally I list the item online. Need proof you were engaging in selling the firearm? Look up the listing and show the LEO. If you have a 5 y/o archived thread you stating SOLD....again there is your paper trail.

A BOS really does nothing.

RetiredUSNChief
July 14, 2013, 06:08 PM
If these things concern you, then put them up front on the web page for your gun. The conditions and terms of sale/purchase should be no surprise to anybody who may be interested.

If I am interested in your gun but the posted conditions and terms do not meet my situation, then I'll simply sigh and move on without wasting either of our valuable time.

AKElroy
July 14, 2013, 10:29 PM
If these things concern you, then put them up front on the web page for your gun. The conditions and terms of sale/purchase should be no surprise to anybody who may be interested.

If I am interested in your gun but the posted conditions and terms do not meet my situation, then I'll simply sigh and move on without wasting either of our valuable time.


I agree in principle, but in practice the sell thread invariably turns into a debate on the requirement rather than what I'm selling. It is not a big deal to have someone pm an offer, and get a response with the requirement. I know it is a bit frustrating, but less so than having a dozen PM's sermonizing on the I'd requirement, along with the hijacked thread.

AKElroy
July 14, 2013, 10:45 PM
I have had several FTF deals that went very smoothly, with extremely nice folks to deal with. But a few years back, I agreed to meet a gentleman at an eatery about 100 miles east of my home. When I arrived, it was dark, and the diner that I assumed was open 24 hours was closed, the parking lot dark, and my wife and I were completely alone. Seriously bad planning on my part.

The only car that drives up is NOT the car the buyer claimed he would be driving, and rather than being alone, he had FOUR banger-type buddies hanging out the windows. Not teenagers, but painted up mid twenties bangers, all staring me down while the buyer comes forward with the cash. I went forward with the sale, but frankly it was more about not causing a confrontation that I would have lost. It was scary as hell. I think had the wife not been with me, that could have ended badly. I think her being behind the wheel while i met with the buyer added a wrinkle they didn't want to deal with. Had those guys decided to take the WASR I was selling and hang on to the cash, or worse, I would have been powerless to stop them. From now on, I need more of a comfort level Before I meet a stranger to sell a gun. If the ID requirement runs them off, oh well......

Of course, the whole thing cold have been completely innocent with only my paranoia running amuck.

ID-shooting
July 14, 2013, 11:07 PM
Are you an attorney or have you run this past an attorney for conformation?

ID theft is enough of a reason why I wouldn't risk letting anybody copy my info, I would sign a bill-of sale as long as you sign a paper that you can legally sell the gun.
Of that I would have no problem. I would gladly provide a purchaser with a bill-sale with my signature stating I verify to my knowledge that the gun is not stolen.

2@low8
July 15, 2013, 01:41 AM
ATCdoktor:

“…I submit that in scenario one, the DUI CHL, you would have arrested him whether or not he could have produced a ream of receipts from his glove box showing who he purchased the firearm from (whether or not they were real/legit).”

Absolutely correct. You need probable cause and not a mere suspicion to charge a person with possession of stolen property. A routine NCIC check of the firearm showed it to be a hit and that is the probable cause for the added charge. Where that “glove box” full of receipts comes in handy is in trying to prove the gun was purchased without his knowledge that it was stolen. (Next answer ties into this.)

“And although you are trained to spot fake id's, we are not and the relative usefulness of requiring ID for a private sale is extremely low/useless based on this alone.”

Partially correct. Yes, we had continuing formal training and, no, the relative usefulness it is not extremely low. Sure, you as well as I are going to miss spotting some fake Ids, but not every one is going to be fake. The possibility of some fakes shouldn’t stop you from getting that info because more often than not it can lead to another avenue for exoneration. . Analogy: The fact that condoms are not 100% effective against HIV is not a reason to forego their use. Condoms and gun ownership info can keep you from getting into something you can't get out of.

GoWolfpack
July 15, 2013, 06:59 AM
Try this exercise:
On your computer, type up a bill of sale. Fill out info for an imaginary buyer.
Fred Smith at 123 Imagination Hwy Nowheresville, KY.

Dream up a gun if you want. Mr Smith bought my Kia Sorrento 9mm Serial Number 0001 (very rare, vintage, classic).

Now sign it with your weak hand. Or deliberately alter your handwriting.

Congratulations! Now you've got "proof" that you sold your Kia, in case Mr. Smith uses it to murder your wife later this week. Terrible tragedy it was.

Every BOS you keep, every one you fill out, every one you encourage others to complete, carries all the legal weight of the one you just invented.


You, as a private citizen, do not have the authority to create a "paper trail" for a gun. The only person who can make a paper trail is an FFL dealer. Your personal records are not legal documents and will not shield you from prosecution or suspicion in the case that a gun you bought from a dealer and later resold is used in a crime. However, keeping your mouth shut and not making statements to the police without consulting a lawyer will do a great deal to shield you from prosecution, if not suspicion. I consider this to be of much more value than a bill of sale.

Jackal
July 15, 2013, 12:41 PM
I sell privately quite a few guns every year and all i require is a name & birth date. There is no reason to collect more data than that for any reason.

Derek Zeanah
July 15, 2013, 12:44 PM
The second one is just personal preference. If you're going to require to COPY DOWN someone's identifying information, PLEASE say so up front. Don't drag some guy halfway across your state just to spring on him that you'll require having his identity on record.

If participating in a private sale, a seller can SEE my state ID, but they may not record it. Bill of sale is fine by me. I'll sign it, but I'm not putting all my personal ID info on it.
I agree with Sam. If I'm buying privately I'm happy to show you my ID and carry permit so you know I'm not a prohibited person, but I'm not all that keen on more records than that being kept. If records are being kept anyway, I'm pretty sure my local FFL won't pay my house a visit in the middle of the night. Some dude I don't know other than seeing his ad on the Internet? That's a whole 'nother issue.

Onmilo
July 15, 2013, 12:58 PM
On rare cases where I sell a gun face to face, I just write down the buyers Illinois FOID card number, DOB, and his/her name and make sure the card is valid when the transaction occurs.
I don't need or want any more information and yes, by Illinois state law we are required to keep a written record of the transaction for ten years

CoRoMo
July 15, 2013, 01:12 PM
Am I being too ... restrictive, or stringent?
Yes, apparently so.

Otherwise you would have sold the firearm. The stringent nature of your restrictions prevented either of the two deals from concluding. That's not to say that you won't eventually make a sale under your rules because there will certainly be someone along who doesn't mind the level of your terms.

Arkansas Paul
July 15, 2013, 01:25 PM
I too would have declined the first deal. You don't want to get messed up in something like that.

As far as the second, as has been said, it is your preference. I don't mind signing a BOS and I'll show you my CHCL but there will be no copying down of personal information. Period. If an issue is made of it, no hard feelings, but I'll pass on buying it.

22-rimfire
July 15, 2013, 03:29 PM
I think that many seem to make a big deal out of providing some personal information during a gun sale. What are you trying to hide?

I don't feel the need to copy their "information" down, but I have a pretty good memory and I can look at a drivers license and pretty much remember everything on it and record whatever information I choose after the buyer or seller walks away. I don't need to photograph it or do a bill of sale. But again, I really don't care where a buyer or seller lives as long as it is in my state.

I have had buyers react negatively if I ask if they are legally allowed to own a firearm. If they make a joke out of it and say something like "As far as I know...", that's good enough for me. But some feel it absolutely is none of my business. I believe that it actually IS my business. So no sale unless it is through a FFL dealer in that case.

Arkansas Paul
July 15, 2013, 03:37 PM
I think that many seem to make a big deal out of providing some personal information during a gun sale. What are you trying to hide?

You're right, I do make a big deal out of providing information to an individual I've never met before. Also, I have a problem with people going beyond what the law requires as far as firearm transfers. People say they are against gun control and new legislation, yet they go above and beyond what is already required. It seems hypocritical to me.

oneounceload
July 15, 2013, 04:12 PM
Quote:
Second hit was a guy who agreed on a price but was up front he would refuse to sign a bill of sale nor would he let me copy/record the info from his ID. I told him to buy someone else's gun.
I have purchased a wheel barrow full of guns over the course of my life in private sales with nothing exchanged but the money, a handshake and a smile.

I will go on to share that under no circumstances would I let a random person copy my info off an ID regardless of the circumstances.

I will follow that up with that I would not allow anyone in any private firearms transaction to know my address or know where I live and that I have guns in my home.


Agree with this, been doing it this way for 30 years

I think that many seem to make a big deal out of providing some personal information during a gun sale. What are you trying to hide?

More like you're trying to pry

2@low8
July 15, 2013, 04:33 PM
"Congratulations! Now you've got "proof" that you sold your Kia..."

No, you don't have "proof". You have a piece of paper that "alleges" a sale. After the paperwork is vetted and it verifies the transaction, then you have proof.

BSA1
July 15, 2013, 04:34 PM
I assume that those of you that are demanding the buyers photo I.D., address and d.o.b. are providing the buyer with your same exact information.

45_auto
July 15, 2013, 04:45 PM
Actual Case #2: Deceased victim and the gun used in the homicide is found nearby. The gun is traced to the last registered owner. The owner advises he believes that he legally sold the gun to an individual he could not positively identify. We have no other leads and we focused in on him. There was an ensuing background check, verification of his alibi (which was shaky) and an area canvass of neighbors and friends. It turned out to be a waste of time for us and an inconvenience and mild embarrassment for him.

Just think how bad it would have gone for him if he had a bill of sale with the buyer's name on it and the buyer denied ever seeing him or the gun.

How do you prove a bill of sale for a gun is real if you only have a name on it with no other verification of the buyer (address, driver license number, date of birth, etc)?

JSH1
July 15, 2013, 04:54 PM
People say they are against gun control and new legislation, yet they go above and beyond what is already required. It seems hypocritical to me.
I support universal background checks so no hypocrisy on my part.

My name, address, and phone number is listed in the phone book. No one can steal my identity with only that information.

My bill of sale has the same information for buyers and seller and both get a signed copy.

22-rimfire
July 15, 2013, 04:58 PM
I don't support "universal background checks", but I still think it prudent that you know to whom you are selling. Buying... I think that is up to the seller from my point of view.

Arkansas Paul
July 15, 2013, 05:10 PM
I support universal background checks so no hypocrisy on my part.

You're right, that does do away with my hypocrisy assumption for you. However, you are the in the minority here, so it would apply to most.

Wow. I didn't figure there was anyone in Bama who would support such legislation. Of course that would explain why you still have a landline phone and a phonebook. lol
Fairhope boy myself. :) ROLL TIDE!

22-rimfire
July 15, 2013, 05:13 PM
If there was a convenient and inexpensive way to have a NICs check done on a buyer I would use it on a case by case basis. I am very liability conscious. It happens as you age a bit or after you get sued.

Arkansas Paul
July 15, 2013, 05:18 PM
If there was a convenient and inexpensive way to have a NICs check done on a buyer I would use it on a case by case basis.

I expect you wouldn't use it as often as you think. You may attempt to, but I would imagine that the VAST majority of people would tell you to get bent and leave.
However, even though I disagree with you, you certainly have the right to require whatever you choose when you're selling your property. Just be ready to have a lot of people like the OP talked about that refuses.

JSH1
July 15, 2013, 06:01 PM
Wow. I didn't figure there was anyone in Bama who would support such legislation. Of course that would explain why you still have a landline phone and a phonebook.

Not by choice. I had been happily landline free since 2001 but found out when I applied for my business license that Alabama still requires a landline. They also still deliver phone books door to door. Mine goes straight into the recycling bin.

2@low8
July 15, 2013, 06:53 PM
“Just think how bad it would have gone for him if he had a bill of sale with the buyer's name on it and the buyer denied ever seeing him or the gun.”

If there was such a denial (how did the police find this guy -- apparently there was enough info from the sale to locate him) the next step of the vetting process is to ascertain why there is no agreement. Was there complicity or another unrelated criminal act on the part of the seller -- the investigation goes on.

Let’s not “what if” this to death. I never said this method was perfect. Let me remind you that the reason we solved cases is due to the fact that criminals make mistakes. Criminals inadvertently providing info that may come back to haunt them is a major one. Instead you might want to think how good it would have gone for him that he did have this info.

2@low8
July 15, 2013, 07:19 PM
“How do you prove a bill of sale for a gun is real if you only have a name on it with no other verification of the buyer (address, driver license number, date of birth, etc)?”

“No officer, I don’t have his address, driver’s license number or his date of birth, but John J. Jones did show me his Florida driver’s license and I noted that the picture was a likeness of him”

The next step is to bring up all the drivers’ licenses with that name and have the buyer identify the picture he saw and that is what would lead the investigation to that individual.

Let me save you some trouble here. “What if it was a fake license?” “What if the buyer can no longer remember the sellers face?” The short answer is, “Probably screwed.” Let me repeat, I never said that this method was perfect, but there is always a good possibility there may be some evidentiary value (maybe a traceable fingerprint on a BOS) in it and some is always better than none.

I no way am I advocating that you follow my lead. If you have complied with Federal and State laws regarding the sale or purchase of a firearm then you are in your right to do what you please. There are millions of firearms out there and the buyers and sellers are free to propose their terms.

buck460XVR
July 15, 2013, 07:20 PM
It's your gun and regardless of what anybody says, you can sell it anyway you want. If a buyer gives you grief so be it. If you have your terms, and have a legitimate reason for them, don't be pressured into changing your mind. That said, if your terms are unreasonable, you may have a hard time selling the firearm or getting the price you want. The few used guns I have bought FTF from folks I did not know personally came with a BOS with their name, address and signature on it as verified by their DL.(altho it was not copied) They got the same info from me. Made us both comfortable with the sale. No identity theft option there. One sale I backed outta cause the seller wanted no paper trail. Wasn't that nice of gun or that good of price.

22-rimfire
July 15, 2013, 08:51 PM
I expect you wouldn't use it as often as you think. You may attempt to, but I would imagine that the VAST majority of people would tell you to get bent and leave.

Hence the case by case judgement on sales. If someone calls me, I already know their name in most cases. If someone choose "to leave", I have my gun and they have their money. No problem. That's why I said earlier I would probably just go through a FFL dealer and be done with it; they can pay dealer price. The dealer wins and the buyer looses all because they would not provide some information.... doesn't make a lot of sense to me when I wouldn't use the information for anything other than to document to whom I sold a firearm to.

Or you sell via the online auctions and you always know the name and address of your buyer.

oneounceload
July 15, 2013, 10:14 PM
“How do you prove a bill of sale for a gun is real if you only have a name on it with no other verification of the buyer (address, driver license number, date of birth, etc)?”

Why do I need a BOS? I don't when I sell a lawn mower, kitchen knife, or anything else of mine. Cash for gun, thanks and goodbye

22-rimfire
July 15, 2013, 10:21 PM
Don't really care about bill of sales. I just want to know to whom I sell a gun to. Nothing more.

I think we are sort of quibbling about details. I have never had a problem selling if I choose to sell. If I am buying, I pretty much voluteer ID, but that is sort of a case by case thing and situational. I don't want to sell through a FFL dealer if I can help it. I find the 4473 cumbersome and NICs check irratating when I know I am perfectly legal.

GoWolfpack
July 15, 2013, 11:37 PM
No, you don't have "proof". You have a piece of paper that "alleges" a sale. After the paperwork is vetted and it verifies the transaction, then you have proof.

And that's all any non-FFL paperwork is, processed wood pulp that "alleges" a sale. Who is going to do the vetting of your paperwork? If your BOS is real, or at least has real information for a real person on it, is that enough to get a warrant to search that person's belongings for the gun you claim to have sold?

That question just occurred to me, now I'm curious. Suppose a gun you bought new then sold is used in a crime. The police show up at your door and shoot your dog. Then they ask politely where you were when the Priscilla's adult bookstore was robbed with your gun. You say you sold the gun, and here's the BOS with buyer's name and address. Is that alone enough for them to get a warrant to arrest the buyer or to search the buyer's house for the gun? All your BOS proves definitely is that you know the name and address of at least one real person. All the police can verify based on the information you gave them is Fred Smith is a real person who really lives on Imagination Highway.

22-rimfire
July 15, 2013, 11:49 PM
The bill of sale (BOS) "proves" nothing. I do suspect that the police would check out the buyer if you showed them a hand written BOS. They might check you out as well if they have cause.

I recall people I worked with creating receipts for expense reports for expenses that they did not have a receipt for. I also recall some creative receipts as well by some.

herrwalther
July 17, 2013, 01:34 AM
Your gun, your rules. Following the rules right up until the sale is a great way to cover your a** if something were to go wrong. BOS is not required but always a good idea if the firearm is ever connected back to you. I turned down about 6 buyers for just a CT laser for one of my firearms merely because they were overseas and I didn't want to deal with ITARs or shipping costs. I ended up finding a good buyer for it and I got a little extra money in my pocket.

SeanSw
July 18, 2013, 02:23 PM
I just completed a face to face transaction in IL for a gun that was found online. The seller insisted on a FFL transfer in addition to the standard 72 hour waiting waiting period. I balked at that because it could be ruinous for the deal on my end. FFL fees are the only thing necessary to turn a good deal into a bad deal with all the potential online vendors and auctions, but the seller insisted, and then agreed to cover the cost of the FFL transfer himself.

I understand adopting a cover yer @~~ policy when selling a firearm but it was unnecessary and doubled the amount of time required for the transaction. No big deal but it definitely made me think twice. If the circumstances were different I may have politely rescinded my offer and gone off to find something else, leaving the seller to suspect I wasn't a legal buyer.

X-JaVeN-X
July 18, 2013, 03:43 PM
I absolutely agree with your decision to not sell to those two.

I don't see why people make a stink about giving a copy of their DL? I sold a gun to my mother and have a copy of her DL and Bill of sale in my file cabinet.

What exactly do you think is going to happen by giving someone a copy of your DL? What info does it have? Your address? How fat or how tall you are? WHOOOOO CARES? So, you'll show it to them but they can't have a copy? If they wanted to do something with the information for personal gain...they could just remember your address and name...Ever heard of the internet? You can find pretty much any info that is on a driver's license on the net....or even a phone book.

If that gun does get used down the road for a crime...I have documentation that says I am not the owner. Yes, I realize that I can tell the police "I sold the gun."....but, in my mind, the documentation takes away all doubt of that fact. I try to treat most things in life with a "better safe than sorry" mindset.

45_auto
July 18, 2013, 05:01 PM
I have documentation that says I am not the owner. Yes, I realize that I can tell the police "I sold the gun."....but, in my mind, the documentation takes away all doubt of that fact. I try to treat most things in life with a "better safe than sorry" mindset.

You really believe that the cops are so stupid they aren't going to know that you typed "North Carolina Driver's License" into Google Images and just photo shopped a fake name and address onto one of those then printed it out? Might be in your best interests to expand your mind a little.

https://www.google.com/search?gs_rn=21&gs_ri=psy-ab&gs_mss=north+cardriver%27s+license&pq=driver%27s+license&cp=11&gs_id=75&xhr=t&q=north+carolina+driver%27s+license&client=firefox-a&hs=iov&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.49478099,d.dmg&biw=1633&bih=850&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=nUjoUYjRM5jG4AOxwoCYBQ

http://a.espncdn.com/i/eticket/20071015/photos/etick_jray14b_310.jpg

http://www.fakeidfree.com/id-card-database/drivers-license-from-around-the-word/usa-drivers-license/north-carolina-drivers-license/fake-north-carolina-id-drivers-license

Arkansas Paul
July 18, 2013, 05:37 PM
If that gun does get used down the road for a crime...I have documentation that says I am not the owner. Yes, I realize that I can tell the police "I sold the gun."....but, in my mind, the documentation takes away all doubt of that fact.

Well what happens in your mind, is wrong. It does not take away all doubt. Someone can type up a Bill of Sale on their computer at any time, sign a fake name to it and present it to an officer. Doesn't mean squat. And if my high school buddies could get ahold of fake IDs that were realistic enough to fool the person selling them cigarettes and cans of skoal, I'm sure that's not too hard either.
It is similar to passing new gun legislation. Feel good B.S. that doesn't accomplish squat. But hey, its your stuff, you can require whatever you want.

Elkins45
July 18, 2013, 06:04 PM
I think the title of this thread is a little misleading because what we are actually talking about is a face to face transaction that was initiated online. Online gun sales means Gunbroker or Buds to me, not Armslist. Armslist is just an online facilitator of FTF transactions.

With that said, I will always ask a buyer to show me a KY drivers license because selling to a resident of a different state is illegal. If someone won't show me proof of KY residency then they certainly won't get my gun. That's doubly true if it's a gun that has a 4473 form in my name. I certainly respect that others may have differing opinions, but that's what works for me.

Arkansas Paul
July 18, 2013, 06:15 PM
I think the title of this thread is a little misleading because what we are actually talking about is a face to face transaction that was initiated online.

Agreed.

I will always ask a buyer to show me a KY drivers license because selling to a resident of a different state is illegal.

I believe it's only illegal if you KNOW the buyer is from out of state. However, showing an ID to someone to prove state of residence isn't a big deal to me. As I said before, I'll gladly show my DL or CHL long enough to put at rest any question sof the place of my residence. Just no copies.

X-JaVeN-X
July 19, 2013, 12:15 AM
You really believe that the cops are so stupid they aren't going to know that you typed "North Carolina Driver's License" into Google Images and just photo shopped a fake name and address onto one of those then printed it out? Might be in your best interests to expand your mind a little.

https://www.google.com/search?gs_rn=21&gs_ri=psy-ab&gs_mss=north+cardriver%27s+license&pq=driver%27s+license&cp=11&gs_id=75&xhr=t&q=north+carolina+driver%27s+license&client=firefox-a&hs=iov&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.49478099,d.dmg&biw=1633&bih=850&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=nUjoUYjRM5jG4AOxwoCYBQ

http://a.espncdn.com/i/eticket/20071015/photos/etick_jray14b_310.jpg

http://www.fakeidfree.com/id-card-database/drivers-license-from-around-the-word/usa-drivers-license/north-carolina-drivers-license/fake-north-carolina-id-drivers-license
Hope you're planning to have a nice workout after all that stretching....

If the cops are that interested that they feel they need to investigate me...then what happens when they look up the "fake name and address" that I photoshop/printed off the internet and it doesn't match at all or that that person does not exist?

I prefer to have some semblance of proof (as invalid as you seem to think it is) over the alternative which is just my word on the matter.

X-JaVeN-X
July 19, 2013, 12:21 AM
Well what happens in your mind, is wrong. It does not take away all doubt. Someone can type up a Bill of Sale on their computer at any time, sign a fake name to it and present it to an officer. Doesn't mean squat. And if my high school buddies could get ahold of fake IDs that were realistic enough to fool the person selling them cigarettes and cans of skoal, I'm sure that's not too hard either.
It is similar to passing new gun legislation. Feel good B.S. that doesn't accomplish squat. But hey, its your stuff, you can require whatever you want.
I don't know how old you are, but the technology that goes into making an ID these days is far beyond what it was when my parents were in school trying to fool the guy at the ABC counter. Someone with the ability to fake modern IDs likely has options for getting handguns other than buying from some random person across state lines. If a bill of sale or an ID mean nothing...then why do so many transactions require them? Why do I need to show my ID when I get my CHP renewed? If I faked everything and cops decided to investigate the information...what are the chances it all matches up?

The contrary is that they check the information I have and it corroborates with everything else they have...again...better safe than sorry.

You still didn't address my other issue...if the information on an ID is so useless...why not let someone have a copy of it? What's it gonna hurt...right? Again...I'll take my semblance of proof over your fart in the wind.

ATCDoktor
July 19, 2013, 01:39 AM
I don't see why people make a stink about giving a copy of their DL? I sold a gun to my mother and have a copy of her DL and Bill of sale in my file cabinet.

What exactly do you think is going to happen by giving someone a copy of your DL? What info does it have? Your address? How fat or how tall you are? WHOOOOO CARES? So, you'll show it to them but they can't have a copy? If they wanted to do something with the information for personal gain...they could just remember your address and name...Ever heard of the internet? You can find pretty much any info that is on a driver's license on the net....or even a phone book.

So why don't you post a copy of your DL here on THR if there's nothing on it that anyone can use?

Seriously.

You're gonna preach that there's nothing on your DL worth protecting, post a copy here.

You won't even use your real name here on the forum (nor would most to include me) but preach that there's no harm in giving a copy of it and all you DL info to a complete stranger to hold forever and do who knows what with.

Ever heard of PII??

Doesn't sound like it.

I suggest you read the following:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/fire/nrcg/BulletinBoard/PII_guidelines.pdf

What data is PII?
Any combination of two or more of the following items can be used to compromise a person’s identity.
• Name
• DOB/Place of birth
• Home address/phone
number/email address
• Social security
number
• Financial data
• Employment history
• Mother’s maiden
name
• Driver’s license
number
• Vehicle license
number
• Non public use photos
• Fingerprints, DNA,
iris scans
• Health information
• Criminal history

It seems you have a lot to learn about Identity Theft.

Keep giving out copies of your Drivers License and you'll learn real quick.

Edited to add: Absolutely, under no circumstances should you allow a private party to copy info off of your DL.

Absolutely, under no circumstances should allow a private party to xerox copy your DL and retain that info.

PII is the reason most states only have you "sight" the ID of a buyer to administrate the private sale of a firearm.

It would not matter to me if you had a washing machine box full of 400 dollar Colt Pythons and Smith & Wesson Registered Magnums and were selling them in the sheriffs office' parking lot; if me giving you a copy of my DL was a requirement of sale, I'd pass.

Elkins45
July 19, 2013, 04:57 PM
It would not matter to me if you had a washing machine box full of 400 dollar Colt Pythons and Smith & Wesson Registered Magnums and were selling them in the sheriffs office' parking lot; if me giving you a copy of my DL was a requirement of sale, I'd pass.

A washing machine box full of Registered Magnums and Pythons probably has more cash value than a lot of people's identities :)

Do you feel differently about letting them see it vs. letting them copy it? Would you let an FFL copy it?

22-rimfire
July 19, 2013, 05:08 PM
Absolutely, under no circumstances should you allow a private party to copy info off of your DL.

It would not matter to me if you had a washing machine box full of 400 dollar Colt Pythons and Smith & Wesson Registered Magnums and were selling them in the sheriffs office' parking lot; if me giving you a copy of my DL was a requirement of sale, I'd pass.

I take it you are unwilling to fill out a 4473 or have a NICs check done? To each his own. If everyone was like me, the world would be a pretty boring place. I would assume somebody like this was hiding something and I would refuse to sell a firearm to them if they waved $100 bills in my face.

What precisely do you believe most private parties are going to do that "public" parties don't do? Oh well....

Arkansas Paul
July 19, 2013, 05:25 PM
You still didn't address my other issue...if the information on an ID is so useless...why not let someone have a copy of it? What's it gonna hurt...right? Again...I'll take my semblance of proof over your fart in the wind.

The reason why I won't let someone have a copy when I'm buying a gun is very simple. Because I don't have to. You want to follow the law, fine, I'm a law abiding man and I'm on board with that. You want to make up your own crap and require my personal information, sell your gun to somebody else. I don't like excessive gun control/requirements whether it be government mandated or just some yahoo selling a gun. The only difference is, I have to do it when buying from a shop, and I don't when buying from you.

45_auto
July 19, 2013, 05:29 PM
I don't know how old you are, but the technology that goes into making an ID these days is far beyond what it was when my parents were in school trying to fool the guy at the ABC counter.

Ever heard of a thing called the "internet"? About half the high school kids around here seem to have fake ID's.

http://www.saratogapolice.org/news.php?id=87

http://idchief.pw/index.php

Why do you think the gun-grabbers are so anxious to outlaw private sales?

22-rimfire
July 19, 2013, 05:35 PM
Because I don't have to.

That is it in a nut shell.

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