Why No Love For PGOs?


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OptimusPrime
July 14, 2013, 08:15 PM
I'm curious about the dislike for pistol grips, why is that? I have them mounted on my HD gun and they feel great. I'm only curious, not trying to pick a fight, I would like to learn what's bad about them.

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PoserHoser
July 14, 2013, 08:31 PM
Accuracy and recoil control is the biggest problem with them.

walking arsenal
July 14, 2013, 08:39 PM
Oh now you've done it. Why not just kick over the biggest can of worms in the whole place? :)

PGOs are a specialized type of shotgun. There are only a few niche situations where they really shine.

Some examples would be:
Compact storage
Breaching doors
Vehicle use
Use in really small apartments

If that describes you then by all means go for it. Many of those situations can be covered with a change of tactics though such as using a folding stocks or even by tucking the butt stock under the shooters arm to make the gun shorter.

Beyond those specialized areas fixed stocks are really the way to go as they make a shotgun much more accurate, controllable, and usable.

dogtown tom
July 14, 2013, 08:39 PM
While compact, a PGO shotgun is greatly inferior to a stocked shotgun when it comes time to actually use it.

While firing from the hip sounds like a great idea it is a terrible method of aiming/pointing a firearm.


PGO's have a place as a breacher gun, but seriously...........who goes around inside their own home breaching doors? Mil/LE NEED breaching guns, for anyone else its just a gun used in a video game with little real world usefullness.

PoserHoser
July 14, 2013, 08:45 PM
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=185227 Great thread on the subject.

OptimusPrime
July 14, 2013, 08:46 PM
I actually figure I'll be breaching bathroom doors in my house soon, with a houseful of daughters. ;)
I will say I didn't hear these negatives before so thank you for bringing them up. I won't argue, I'm learning here.

rcmodel
July 14, 2013, 08:47 PM
Weapon control / retention is another often overlooked aspect of it.

A BG stronger then you can easily twist a PG shotgun out of your hands and turn it on you.

Not so easily done with a stock clamped under your arm.

Also it rules out less lethal horizontal & vertical butt strokes and such.

rc

mljdeckard
July 14, 2013, 08:51 PM
I concur with #2, #4, and #7 entirely.

A friend of mine has one in 20 ga, and even that one is a beast to run effectively.

LeonCarr
July 14, 2013, 08:57 PM
PGOs do not allow you to exploit the full capability of the shotgun. Accurate shooting of shot or slugs past about 10 yards is near impossible.

Breaching doors in a military or law enforcement situation in which a compact shotgun is needed to be carried in addition to your primary is the only legitimate situation IMO/IME a PGO shotgun would be warranted.

Keep a stock on it.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

oneounceload
July 14, 2013, 09:06 PM
Because they are simply, a gimmick. They have poor handling, harsh recoil, no practical use for the average citizen in any day-to-day scenario.

Learn how to run the gun - the regular stocked shotgun and you will soon see why they get panned...................

Fred Fuller
July 14, 2013, 09:11 PM
I have one PGO shotgun that works... :D

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/shotgun/sh26/hs10a-r.jpg
(Img from http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/usa/high-standard-10a-10b-e.html)

Haven't been happy with any of the others I've tried.

oneounceload
July 14, 2013, 09:13 PM
You must be RH, 'šause that would suck for those of us who are LH

Sam1911
July 14, 2013, 09:15 PM
Our late shotgun mentor Dave McCracken's canonical thread on the subject: PG Only Shotguns and Hip Shooting 101 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465)

Lots of folks who see these things used on TV think they're good for close range combat. They're not. Here's how I know...

1981 was a busy year for me. I had been promoted to Sgt in near record time, survived the J Dorm Riot at the MD House of Corruption without a scratch, and been made a Firearms Instructor. We had a new prison opening and 300 rookies to qualify on all three weapons, 38 Service revolver, Mini 14, and the 870 shotgun.

...LOTS OF INTERESTING BACKGROUND DELETED...

In my somewhat jaundiced but valid opinion, the effort, ammo and time put forth to get one reasonably proficent with a PG only shotgun would,with a standard shotgun, result in being Abso$%^&*ly deadly.

And for those doubtful of the validity of this opinion or mine, here's a challenge. It's the same one I started on TFL.

Any PG only fan living close to Central MD is invited to a shootoff.

We'll shoot your COF.

We'll use the ammo of your choice.

YOU can use any PG only shotgun you want to,with any accessories up to belt feed and lazer sights.

I'll use a standard stocked 870 with few mods or addons.

We'll shoot for score, time decides ties, but there won't be any. Results posted for all to see.
(Note, Dave's challenge was never even accepted, let alone successfully met.)

Then, if you need more input, the grand-daddy thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=544181
And the grand-momma thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=501891

See also:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=687128
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=619528
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=614629

I figure there's enough info in there to write a graduate level treatise on the subject.

Fred Fuller
July 14, 2013, 09:16 PM
You must be RH, 'šause that would suck for those of us who are LH

Oh yes.

The text that can't be made out in the picture, molded into the clamshell on the right side of the receiver, says something like WARNING: DO NOT FIRE FROM LEFT SHOULDER.

CajunBass
July 15, 2013, 07:48 AM
I've always thought the PGO shotgun plays into the "you don't need to aim a shotgun" school of thought. Just point it and spray and pray. Sorry but I've missed too many deer with buckshot, including one inside ten yards, to believe that in any way, shape or form.

Then there is the matter of recoil. Years ago, my son, no doubt influenced by some video game or the other, purchased a shotgun that came with both regular and pistol grip. He immediately put the pistol grip on it. He later told me he fired it twice with low brass birdshot rounds. He then put the regular stock on it, and threw the PG away. He said "That thing kicked." No kidding? Whodathunkit?

dogtown tom
July 15, 2013, 11:32 AM
Fred Fuller I have one PGO shotgun that works...
But whats pictured is not a "PGO"........it most definitely HAS been designed to be fired from the shoulder as it has a shoulder stock.;)

MCgunner
July 15, 2013, 12:54 PM
My coach gun is compact and I can actually hit with it.

JSH1
July 15, 2013, 04:28 PM
I'm curious about the dislike for pistol grips, why is that? I have them mounted on my HD gun and they feel great. I'm only curious, not trying to pick a fight, I would like to learn what's bad about them.

You say that your pistol grip shotgun feels great but have you ever shot it? Take it to the range and try to hit a target and you will see why people don't like them.

Fred Fuller
July 15, 2013, 04:30 PM
But whats pictured is not a "PGO"

Which was sort of the point ... :D

But the 10A/10B works very well when fired from the right hand with the shoulder rest turned 90 degrees and cupped in the elbow. It also leaves an interesting 'hickey' in the bend of your elbow from the hole where the shoulder rest bolts on to the back of the receiver though.

There's an old picture of inventor Al Crouch holding his Remington Model 58 - based prototype out of the window of a squad car with one hand, prepared to fire it. I don't see that picture online anywhere though.

Justin
July 15, 2013, 04:56 PM
Everything I have to say on this subject can be found in the archives.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk. Hence all the misspellings and goofy word choices.

lemaymiami
July 15, 2013, 06:37 PM
One other small point about PGO equipped poppers.... If you think the PGO is a bad idea wait until the first time you try to use one of those nice folding metal stocks that some pistol grip shotguns come equipped with (particularly the one that came from Remington marked "law enforcement use only"). On my Department you could spot anyone trying to use one of the things by the blood on their face (or the nice bandaids that came after you got cleaned up). Some ideas just don't work very well at all in real life. Learning about them the hard way isn't a very good idea at all....

Sam1911
July 15, 2013, 09:00 PM
the one that came from Remington marked "law enforcement use only"Dave had made almost the exact same comment in his "101" thread.

mstreddy
July 15, 2013, 10:13 PM
Fred,
Now that's something -- Do you actually own the 10A? I own the 10B. I gotta get a picture up sometime. It actually is a great shotgun, lots of fun, but way before it's time.

PBR Streetgang
July 15, 2013, 11:04 PM
This was a older post I made about using pistol grip shotguns.

The original Wilson Witness Protection shotgun was made to be fired pushed out in front and at eye level looking down the barrel, like you were shooting a stocked gun sans the stock. They were a handful to hang onto but not impossible. The birds head grip didn't beat you up as bad as the pistol grips now supplied with shotguns.
These guns came out about the same time as compact subguns with folding stocks which were more controllable and lost favor quickly to subguns like the Uzi and later H&K MP5-k.

Fred Fuller
July 16, 2013, 09:13 AM
Do you actually own the 10A?

Yes, this is my second one. I foolishly sold the first one in a fit of insanity years ago, but I came across another one and brought it home.

HB
July 16, 2013, 04:49 PM
While not exactly practical, a PGO shotgun is not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. I have owned 2 and shot 3.

The first was a stevens pump action 20 gauge cut down to 19" and the stock lopped off at the stock bolt. I shot both birdshot and 3" pheasant loads out of it with no problem. It is obviously harder to aim than a stocked gun but I have killed many possums with it out to 25 yards. You can shoot it like a pistol with one or two hands.

The other 2 I've shot were 870s. One had a forward are rear pistol grip and the other just a rear. They were both 12 gauges and much rougher on the hands but you could fire a box of birdshot and still have fun. I didn't shoot any buck out of them but a 3" goose load will ring your bell. I even shot slugs out of the double gripped one at 10 yards, maintaining a milk jug sized group with 5 shots.

The best thing to do with them is have your friends throw clays out in front of you. It is challenging but with the double gripped model you can keep the action and barrel flat against your weak hand arm and essentially point and pull the trigger.

Overall they are fun toys and I really like the 20 as a pest control gun. I wouldn't want one as my only shotgun but someday I may try my buddies out for deer hunting with a red dot attached just to disprove the naysayers. I think any 20 gauge version makes the most sense because they still pack a punch but are much easier to handle due to their lighter weight and size. I would recommend one for an atv/camping gun for shooting snakes, possums, or a squirrel or 2 if you get hungry.

I think that those who share a different viewpoint than mine haven't given them much of a chance or haven't fired one. Also, when equipped with a light and laser (which I haven't tried) I could see them being decent HD shotguns indoors.


HB

dogtown tom
July 16, 2013, 05:50 PM
HB .....I think that those who share a different viewpoint than mine haven't given them much of a chance or haven't fired one.....
In my case you would be wrong.
I first fired a PGO over twenty years ago and have done so nearly every year since...........there is no way I would choose a PGO over a shoulder stocked shotgun for anything. If I truly need the compactness of a short shotgun I'll get an 870 with the Knox topfolding stock.

To get an idea of the usefulness of a PGO just go to YouTube, there are dozens of videos showing numbskulls getting their face punched in while trying to aim a PGO.

HB
July 16, 2013, 06:04 PM
Overall they are fun toys and I really like the 20 as a pest control gun. I wouldn't want one as my only shotgun but someday I may try my buddies out for deer hunting with a red dot attached just to disprove the naysayers

Thats why I qualified my previous statements with this.

For clarification... They are:
1)A fun toy for me.
2)Offer a greater chance of killing a varmint over the .22 pistol I usually carry in the woods.
3)A challenge to play with on the range.

HB

CGRifleman
July 16, 2013, 07:49 PM
I had a Mossy with a PGO on it for a while... everyone else is right, it renders the sights completely useless and makes the gun, to say the least, difficult to control. Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it, but nonetheless it was a lot of fun to shoot. Wasn't really good for much besides anger management and indiscriminately wrecking stuff.

Sam1911
July 16, 2013, 07:59 PM
I spent many fun hours with my Mossberg 500 in that configuration, breaking thrown clays. (Sometimes.)

When I decided to use the shotgun for something, I bought a full stock for it. There's stuff you do for fun and stuff you do for real.

OptimusPrime
July 16, 2013, 09:57 PM
You say that your pistol grip shotgun feels great but have you ever shot it? Take it to the range and try to hit a target and you will see why people don't like them.
Yes I certainly have. I'm only offering my viewpoint here because you asked, but here I go with my reasons FOR the pistol grips: it's very compact and hides where I want it to hide; it's a 20 ga to make recoil more manageable; contains both a laser and light; I do practice with it; I do hit with it; #3 buck gives a lot of coverage at a short 15 foot distance; I do have stocked shotguns for real shot gunning; and I do know that the magical/mythical buckshot is not the street sweeper that video games make it seem.
As I said, no arguments here, but it fits a niche for me. But to all the naysayers, of course a stock beats the pistol grip just like a tank beats a dump truck. It's not about one vs. the other, it's about does the pistol grip work. For me it does. Sorry, it sounds like I'm arguing and I didn't mean to.

bubba in ca
July 17, 2013, 10:11 AM
In my area bank guards carry PGOs on a sling, probably because they are cheaper and have more bluff factor than a .38 revolver.

I don`t carry a shotgun for 12 hour shifts and I don`t have a great use for bluff factor so I don`t own one.

If I were canoeing or backpacking in grizzly country I might make a case for a 12 gauge one, or living in an rv I might get a 20 gauge.

Netnet, I think some manufacturers have found that they can bust a price point by selling PGOs so they market them.

The pump shotgun is already the 3rd best weapon for HD (after a semi carbine and an auto shotgun) so making it harder to use with a longer learning curve is a bad idea.

Andrew Wyatt
July 17, 2013, 01:53 PM
if you need it to fold up real small, get a folder, and unfold it before use.

lemaymiami
July 17, 2013, 03:54 PM
I was issued and carried a shotgun for most of the 22 years I did in police work (both on the street and in every other capacity when appropriate). I took a fair amount of flak from co-workers for always bringing a shotgun if it might even possibly be needed (and brought enough ammo to make a difference, if needed). In my world there's just no substitute for being prepared, ready, and capable on the street, period.

I've never been one that viewed weapons as toys or something to have fun with since I went in the Army and took my senior trip. That's why those PGO type weapons have no place for me. What I said about using those folding metal stocks on shotguns was said because I've personally observed more than one officer injured in the face area by them -and that was only in training with no stress involved at all....

A basic level no frills "riot gun" configured 12 guage shotgun is the most capable close quarters weapon I ever handled. I haven't owned or used one now since I retired in 1995 but you never forget the basics. The SRT on my Department initially armed their entry man with a short barreled PGO weapon... They quickly abandoned that practice since, once inside, that weapon wasn't much use (in police work you get in lots of trouble if there's any collateral human injury where it wasn't intended...). I think that most who are attracted to that weapon configuration might have seen one too many movies...

JSH1
July 17, 2013, 05:43 PM
Yes I certainly have. I'm only offering my viewpoint here because you asked, but here I go with my reasons FOR the pistol grips: it's very compact and hides where I want it to hide; it's a 20 ga to make recoil more manageable; contains both a laser and light; I do practice with it; I do hit with it; #3 buck gives a lot of coverage at a short 15 foot distance.......

Sounds like it works for you. I asked if you have shot it because I know people that have purchased a pistol grip shotgun for home defense and put it in the closet without ever firing a shot.

I can't hit anything with one and don't see the point of trying to learn when a regular shotgun does everything I need.

OptimusPrime
July 17, 2013, 06:35 PM
That's fair, and I certainly don't mind the differing viewpoints. That's what I was asking for really. The funny thing is that I never really investigated it so it was a surprise for me to learn these things. And knowing is half the battle, says GI Joe.
When he was a young man coming up to the big leagues, Hank Aaron batted with crossed wrists, as if he was a left-hander facing the wrong way; he didn't know any better simply cuz nobody had told him, and he was still lighting up the opposition. Consider me the young Henry Aaron of HD shotguns. :rolleyes:

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