Sling or No for HD Shotgun?

[CWL]

I was formerly of the opinion that one didn't need a carry system -wheter standard sling or 'tactical/ching sling' for a home defense shotgun because it can get in the way of movement. However, I have been shown reasons why a carry system can be useful for HD use, such as retention when transitioning to sidearm, frees extra hand for dialing 911, etc.

I'm starting to see more 'pros' than 'cons' although I'm still not convinced it needs to be a tactical system since I'm smooth enough with American and African carry transitions.

What do y'all think?

[Stinger]

The only time I use a sling is on a long hike. They always seem to catch on things (branches, etc.) so I can imagine chairs and the such at home would only do the same.

But I could see where it might come in handy for the reason you mentioned.

Stinger

[Col. Mustard]

The sling on my HD shotgun carries 9 extra rounds, in case what's in the magazine doesn't get the job done. The sling and the buttstock carrier carry #00 buck, and slugs.

[HS/LD]

Unless it was a TACTICAL sling like an H&K design 3 point etc.(which I would find far too much of a mess to put on when waking up) I would not want one on a HD shotgun.

The liability potential of catching the sling on something far outweighs the benefits. I have found that having rounds on the sling makes this even worse it tends to make the sling swing and "pull" the shotgun, when trying to target the BG.

The best idea is to have a detachable sling that you can taken off the SG when in the HD role and re-attach for wandering through God's garden.

Regards,
HS/LD

[Guyon]

If you sling it, keep the sling pretty tight. I prefer one, but I don't let it dangle so that it COULD catch on items, even though I can't imagine what it would catch on. My hunting guns never seem to "catch" on anything unless I'm hiking through dense scrub pines or brambles. Last I checked, there aren't any pine thickets in my living room. That said, I fully understand Murphy's Law when the adrenaline is up and the proverbial S is hitting the F. Still, I like the option of using both hands for other chores while retaining my weapon. Sling it tight.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Oh boy.....

Probably more than a couple cents worth of reply.

As has been mentioned, the sling can be very useful on any shoulder arm that is to be used defensively. It 's the equivaent of a holster for your shotgun, etc. I really like having the ability to get the weapon out of my hands should I need them free, while still retaining control over it - rather than leaving it on the ground or the floor.

As for the sling hanging up on doors, furniture, etc. When you mount the shotgun hook the sling with the pinkie of your support hand. You'll to practice this, so that you have enough slack to run the action. Doing this should defeat the tendency to have hang so low that it catches.

As for using a sling that carries ammo, I vote NO, rather emphatically. This is the only sling we've banned at my department. Why? Physics. Each shot shell weighs 1 to 1 1/8 oz. The slings in question hold from eight to fifteen of these shells. All of which will begin bouncing all over the place with movement, let alone the first shot. Think about what that will do to any follow-up shot. Even with trapping the sling as I've described above, this'll happen.

I like my sling loose enough that I can actually get it over my upper body for the transition. I've also found thru trial & error that it is actually easier to carry over one shoulder or the other when the sling is loose.

In my opinion, for what its worth, a sling oughta be mandatory, along with two other items, for any shoulder arm we intend to use against two legged problems. But hey, I can't convince my admin of this.

[Dave McCracken]

IMO, HD shotguns should not have slings on them, for the reasons given. Snagging,especially.

And as for transiting to sidearm in my home, I'll use a Gravity Transit and just drop the thing.

But,HD shotguns should be sling capable. Out of the six shotguns here, the only ones that do not have studs are the 870TB trap gun and Son's little NEF single.That last can be slung, light as it is, from a piece of trotline.

HD shotguns double as CD shotguns, and may need to be slung. A sling's near my "Serious" shotguns and another's on the "Panic Box". Other long arms here not intended as first line HD tools have them on already.

And Col Mustard, a few fast COFs with that ammo on your sling will have you rethinking its utility. Trust me...

[ruger357]

My HD 870 is slingless.

[Marshall]

No sling, too many potential hang-ups in a home.

[Mannlicher]

My HD shotguns are all equipped with sling attachments. I don't have any rigged with a sling in the home, but they do double duty as outside guns too. In no case do I carry extra ammo on the sling.

[Guyon]

I'm just curious as to where all these potential hangups might be. Now, if it were an unfamiliar house, I might be worried about hanging up on something. In my house, with the sling relatively tight, it just isn't enough of a concern to give up the ability to take both hands off the gun and retain the weapon.

[labgrade]

IMNSHO, a sling adds nothing - for the way I use a rifle or shotgun.

But, my long guns do have the quick detachable mounts so I can sling (later) if I choose to do so.

Nice for freeing hands when walking out after the deed is done.

I cannot imagine any use for a sling for anything HD-wise. Worst case, I grab the 25 round bandoleer. Along with the 7+1 already ....

YMMV

[NIGHTWATCH]

SLING. If I have to worry about being caught up in something around my house while Im toting my shotgun, I have no business owning a shotgun. I may as well worry about my boot laces. :uhoh:

[HS/LD]

In the service I trained for HR and CT work. In my training, when entering a building through the door (the closest situation to clearing/defending your own home) it was vitally important to have all your equipment, most important of which is your weapon, as snag free as possible.
Although I never used the shotgun specifically, I used an MP5 others the Steyr AUG and the M4. There was NEVER a field sling on any weapon.

I am sitting here (drinking beer) with a US Marine that completed urban combat training / room clearing (SOP now for Marines) and also agrees that there is no way a field sling would be / should be used in the confined spaces that occur in building interiors, especially on a LONG gun such as an 18" SG.

I field sling should NOT be used inside a house!

Unless you have an H&K type three point (modified) sling, remove it for your HD SG.

Even if I had a 3 point I am pretty sure I would leave it off as even with training leaping out of bed butt naked and trying to stick my head through the right loop seems like an unnecessarily complicated procedure.

Just MHO (and 5-6 beers talking, another 5-6 and its time to start teaching this Jar Head how to shoot).:D

Regards,
HS/LD

[Daniel Flory]

As has been mentioned, the sling can be very useful on any shoulder arm that is to be used defensively. It 's the equivaent of a holster for your shotgun, etc. I really like having the ability to get the weapon out of my hands should I need them free, while still retaining control over it - rather than leaving it on the ground or the floor.

As for the sling hanging up on doors, furniture, etc. When you mount the shotgun hook the sling with the pinkie of your support hand. You'll to practice this, so that you have enough slack to run the action. Doing this should defeat the tendency to have hang so low that it catches.


I'm with you Erick 100%.

[HS/LD]

The idea of hooking your pinkie through anything when you are in a situation where you could be required to shoot at human beings and have the potential of being shot at... doesn’t make much sense. :confused:

That dog don't hunt.

Remember your training (if you have not had any, make that the first priority on the list) motor skills deteriorate...

Eric acknowledges that there IS the potential for a hazard with the sling by advocating the “Gelhaus pinkie technique”.
As for the sling hanging up on doors, furniture, etc. When you mount the shotgun hook the sling with the pinkie of your support hand. You'll to practice this, so that you have enough slack to run the action. Doing this should defeat the tendency to have hang so low that it catches.

Now that we agree there is a potential for the sling to hang up disastrously… The simple act of opening a door (on the way to collect your children) will necessitate dropping the sling from your pinkie. Try then to re-acquire the sling with your pinkie in the dark while someone or something rushes/attacks/throws/shoots something at you...

Eric alludes that the sling is to the shotgun as the holster is to the pistol.

It 's the equivalent of a holster for your shotgun...

I couldn’t agree more.

However, let me ask a question. If you were going to use your pistol as primary in a home defense situation would you first strap on your holster? The holster for you pistol would be of absolutely no concern, and no benefit, because the pistol would be in your hand leaving the holster (making the holster therefore completely redundant) the instant a threat is detected.

The field sling to the long arm is like the holster to the pistol when in the field. Allowing one to keep the SG comfortably close at all times.

Unless you are going to walk around your house with the SG slung over your shoulder all the time a field sling is more of a potential hazard than a benefit.

The argument that it would aid in retention when transitioning to another weapon in the “in house fresh out of bed scenario” is also IMHO suspect. In the home defense scenario if you have strapped on a pistol and you have run the SG dry or it has become inoperable dumping the weapon would be advisable as you transition to the handgun. Transitioning to a hand-to-hand situation it would be, in the home defense scenario, advisable NOT to sling the SG and rather use it as an impact weapon. If the H2H is so close that grappling will occur the SG dumped across the chest, over the shoulder can become a huge disadvantage.

I would be interested in hearing about a reputable firearms trainer advocates the use of a field sling in the "in house" home defense scenario discussed here.

(All if the above rant does not apply to the TACTICAL type 3 point H&K style slings. Which allow the weapon to be fired WHILE the weapon is slung and are designed for exactly this situation).

Regards and with respect for everyone’s opinion,
HS/LD

[Erick Gelhaus]

HS/LD-
Maybe I'm not not explaining it well enough, but I don't have a photo to explain it better.

One doesn't hook their pinkie into anything. Rather, one catches the slack in the sling with it. You can still run the action and do away with the dangling sling concerns.

Erick

[HS/LD]

I understand that well. Your description was clear.

Just try that while I am shooting at you.:D

It would be much easier to "do away with the dangling sling" by leaving it off.

Regards,
HS/LD

[ajacobs]

I to don't believe in a sling for home defence shotgun but more for the reason as I don't see a need to use a sling in the house. I see people listing pleanty or reasons why it most likely would not be a problem but I have yet to see why it would be listed as useful other than having ammo availible. I don't keep ammo on my slings for the reasons listed above and I don't keep ammo in a side saddle. My logic being if I empty my shotgun with eight rounds I will transition to my handgun. I know I am removing my ability to reload tactically but I hardly evision expending eight rounds to begin with and if I do it will probally be so rapid that I should be transitioning and bring ready right away as opposed to taking the time to reload.

[HS/LD]

ajacobs
Regarding the sling Exactly!

Although regarding the ammo...

I remember in Sim training not taking all the 5 extra mags for my MP5 when entering a kill house (I was too lazy to load them all with the sim rounds :) ) The briefing regarding targets was all wrong and I ended up pinned behind cover with 6 rounds left in a select fire MP5 and three hostiles..... I had to transition to a high power I had only 2 mags for...

Those sim round hurt like hell when your barracks buddies realise you ran dry and three of them decide to hose you down. :D

It is true you can never have too much ammo.... but you can have too little...

I like the idea of 14 rounds on my SG rather than 8. :D

HS/LD

[blades67]

I don't have slings, or holsters, on any of my home-defense firearms. I'm not going to try to take an intruder into custody, I'm just going to keep them covered until the police show up. If the intruder runs away from me and out of my apartment I'm not going to follow, so I don't need a sling.

[Smoke]

The place where I train is adamant about having a sling on your shotgun. They can show you every advantage in the world to having one on. Its great for retention, transitions, bringing the gun into ready, etc. etc. etc.

But it just doesn't work for me. I've tried it time and again. Maybe I'm just a klutz, but I tend to get it tangled on ME. Or it doesn't hang right, blah, blah, blah.

Do what works for you. Try it. If it works, GREAT. If it doesn't...skip it. No big deal.

[Daniel Flory]

HS/LD- With training, taking up the slack in your sling is like second nature. It becomes part of your muscle memory- When you shoulder your gun, you automatically take up the slack in your sling as Erick described. It will become part of the shouldering process, even if you're shooting at me. Mr. Gelhaus has a very respectable amount of training under his belt, thusly I greatly value his opinions. And on this matter, I'm inclined to agree with him. Ever been to Thunder Ranch? If you haven't, go without a sling on your shotgun and see what Clint says to you ;)

Just out of curiousity, where did you do your sim training? Eventually I want to go to a school that does that in the advanced classes.

[HS/LD]

Daniel,

I completed the bulk of my firearms training in the military, New Zealand Army.

In the field on patrol I would have a field or Tac Sling, on an entry team I would have a tactical sling only.
But not on the gun I grab when I wake up in my house these are different scenarios.

Muscle memory :scrutiny: is of course possible the problem is you are further complicating an already complicated scenario.

What is the benefit of the field sling on a SG for "inside the house"?????

To dump it over your shoulder while transitioning to a sidearm? If you have the time to strap on a side arm and get the SG wouldn't it be better to have a TAC sling and make the transition faster and easier. I agree a TACTICAL sling would be, as I have stated previously, an advantage.

As my SG sits beside my bed I will be grabbing it upon being awakened in the night.... in this sit a field sling offers no real benefit but a huge potential liability.

This really will boil down to personal preference but try this....

Tell me of a well trained unit LE or MIL that run room sweeps with field slings.

We didn't in NZ nor Australia nor the Brits and my friend here says its a no no for the USMC too.

Regards,
HS/LD

[Daniel Flory]

HS/LD-

Muscle memory is retained relatively well even under situations of stress. For example, if you were under some sort of extreme stress could you still stick a fork in your mouth? I would guess that you could. Do you use sights? Are you complicating the scenario if you do?

You're also making the assumption that I don't already have my sidearm on. HD shotguns are not ALWAYS used when awakened in the middle of the night.

You're also making the assumption that slings are only useful for transition drills. My personal method of doing a hasty transition is to just hold the gun in my left hand (muzzle down, butt up), then draw and fire with just my strong hand. The sling (field or tactical) is great for getting both hands free to do something else. This could be something as simple as picking up someone who has been hit.

Another thing is why would I care what the military uses for room clearing drills? If you're in your house doing room clearing drills because you heard a bump in the night you must have a death wish. Clearing alone, or even with two people, is a dangerous thing.

[HS/LD]

Edited by Staff - Due to THR rule violation.

[V-fib]

Nope. just one more thing to get in the way. :cool:

[Daniel Flory]

HS/LD-

Use of sights is a primary concern when engaging in a gunfight not a secondary concern.
Using the sights = primary.
Making sure that my sling is looped over my pinkie = secondary.

My point is that things in muscle memory are not "concerns" at all. They just happen automatically because of one's amount of training. I recall reading an incident that involved Mr. Lucibella around election time...his reactions were completely automatic. After action, he said that he didn't consciously think about certain things at all, he just did them.

Have you had any quality training with firearms? While I am not an instructor, and what FEELS right for one might not feel right for another, this seems to me like you are know compromising your secondary weapon. It would be much better to drop the SG and use with 100% focus your pistol.

You've been questioning the amount of training that everyone else has but yet you come off like you think you're an experienced high speed low drag operator...which may or may not be true, but I don't bother to ask since I would rather discuss a technique instead of getting into a contest where we show each other how many hours of training we have had. BTW- The technique is from Thunder Ranch's Shotgun video.

As for clearing my OWN HOME the only one with a death wish is the intruder.

While it may be fun with 10 of your best buddies or on a computer game, clearing out a home is no joke and not something that you can cowboy through. Like Awerbuck says, fighting is a thinking man's game.

You mean to tell me if you hear a bump in the night you will quickly hop behind the bed, aim your SG at the door and dial 911, and hope that the LEOs have death wishes so that they will come in to save you?

I probably wouldn't aim my shotgun at the door (Rule #4 and all...), but yeah that's exactly my plan. No everyone here is a Selous Scout or a SEEL. My primary concern is the safety of myself and my wife, going out to play mall ninja would simply jeoparize both of us.

A while ago I heard a bump that sounded like it came from the rear of my house at ground level (I sleep on the second floor) I wandered down to check it out (SG in hand) and found it was simply the local tom cat try to get the attention of my wife's cat... What would you have done called the SWAT team?

I would only call 911 if the sound that was heard was a sound associated with someone breaking into my home.

Keep it all as simple as possible. The "Gelhaus pinkie technique" will work sure, is it the best for the average Joe that practises once a month if that. No the potential to catch the sling is too great.

IMO, that is insulting to Erick. Stop calling it the "Gelhaus pinkie technique". Your ignorance of the technique simply shows that you haven't the slightest idea of the techniques of the various instructors inside the U.S. As for the average Joe, I don't care about the average Joe nor do I care about his laziness. I only care about the best techniques.

It’s just my opinion I would never be so arrogant as to presume that what I think should apply to everyone.

I have no problem with someone buying a Lorcin .25, never shooting it, and keeping it as a night stand gun. I don't care what others do. I don't care what you do. But I do care about revealing which techniques hold merit and which ones don't. I don't get into discussions unless I think I may be able to learn something from it. Unfortunately with many, that is not the case.

[HS/LD]

Edited, same reason as above.

[Andrew Wyatt]

since i find it difficult to use the phone to call 911 and hold a shotgun at the same time, i prefer the use of a sling.

count that among my preference for the mini 14 over the ar-15, the enfield over the mauser and the mossberg over the 870 as things that make me a horrible person.

[Double Naught Spy]

I have a setup sling I really like. It is not so much for carrying the shotgun as keeping control of it. The sling mounts to the butt end sling mount and then to a GG&G receiver end plate (between receiver and stock) sling mount. So, there is no sling forward of the receiver to get entangled with the pump or get in the way. Simply, the sling is looped over from the right shoulder and then under the left arm (for right-handed shooting). The purpose of the sling is for weapon retention. Should something happen and the shotgun gets grabbed, it cannot be turned on the wearer with the exception of the wearer's feet. Other than the feet, the muzzle physically can be turned on the wearer.

One other really nice aspect about this setup is that it is not complicated like a Giles sling. There is ONLY ONE strap and so you don't have to be fully awake to get it on properly and without any strap forward of the receiver, nothing to get entangled. I have read of folks trying to pump a shotgun, but found the carry strap between their hand and the pump and not be able to pump that way.

On the down side, my setup is not made for long term carrying of the gun. If you drop it, it goes to a muzzle down position. If you are carrying a strong side sidearm, it will be completely clear of the dropped shotgun and can be readily drawn. I would not, however, want to try running with a shotgun pointed down and swinging between my legs. But for a home defense setup, I am more worried about ease of use and retention than transitioning to a sidearm. Chances are I will not be wearing my sidearm should I need the shotgun in the middle of the night. I don't wear the sidearm 24/7 like some strange folks.

[Daniel Flory]

Andrew,

You sir, are obviously not tactical :p

[Duke of Lawnchair]

count that among my preference for the mini 14 over the ar-15, the enfield over the mauser and the mossberg over the 870 as things that make me a horrible person.

YOWZA, you gotta quit being your baaad self!

[Erick Gelhaus]

Ladies & Gentlemen-

We can have differing views on things here. Heck, I think thats why someone wrote the code for these in the first place.

Personal attacks and the like are not tolerated. Not here and they weren't on TFL either.

If you have a disagreement in opinion, carry on articulately and intelligently. As long as it stays on The High Road, there won't be a problem. Stray from that path, and there will be.

As a final comment, Dave & I both use our full names; heck, most of the staff here does too. I've used the correct spelling of my first in most places on the web. Screen names can be cute, but for some, they tend to be something to hide behind.

Erick

[Daniel Flory]

Just to clarify: No hard feelings with HS/LD. I love shooting and I love learning about shooting. I debate the merits of a technique to learn. I don't care if you have experience or if you have no experience, I just want to hear what you think about a technique or tool. If we resort to ridicule or ad hominem attacks, we're not learning anything at all.

[Al Thompson]

And the smart gunner learns as many as he/she can to furthur their education.

One thing most don't know is that Erick is an instructor at Gunsite. They see what works, what doesn't, on a scale vastly larger than most of us will ever experiance.

Just as I don't care for Weaver, some may not like slings or techniques to control the slings. Throwing rocks at someone offering to furthur your education for free is pretty low. Certainly not the mark of a professional.

[provalov]

Seems to me a sling in the HD situation actually complicates retention if the confrontation gets up close and personal -- it just gives the BG one more thing to grab if he's trying to disarm you.

[Dave Williams]

Since I've had an opportunity to train with a sling, I'd not choose to be without one. You never know what the HD situation could turn into, and a sling could be useful.

Dave

[Double Naught Spy]

provalov, it may give the bad guy one more thing to grab, but with a retention sling, he should not be able to get control of the gun and use it on you. That is the point of retention. If the bad guy wants to grab the strap, great. That means he has brought himself very close to me and has his hand(s) dealing with the strap. That leaves two hands free for me. The gun isn't going anywhere and he has pretty well locked himself into a position where I can pummel him.

Every technique and product has advantages and disadvantages. Figure out what works for you in your particular situation and then become as familiar with the use of those techniques and products, both good and bad aspects.

[Bruce626]

TFL refugee just now catching up here...

Because of what I read a while back in a similar thread on TFL, I choose to keep my SG in the NO sling mode while it is at the ready in my bedroom.

All of the training I've had has been outside with a sling using African, American, etc. So, I naturally plan to use the sling if I ever have to take my HD SG out for a walk near the 'hood. Only takes a second to attach it.

BTW, a guy in my last class had a huge number of shells on his sling until the second COF... emptied it in a heartbeat.

[Chris Rhines]

There are good arguments both for and against having a sling on an HD shotgun. I don't keep a shotgun for home defense, but if I did I think I'd rather have the sling.

I'd also avoid one-man house-clearing like I avoid Ebola (similar chances of survival.) I don't have eyes in the back of my head, nor can I cover 360-degrees. I'd rather call the law, hunker down behind cover, and let the bad guys walk into my sights if they be so inclined.

Of course, if I have to check on family members this all goes out the window, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

- Chris

[riverdog]

QD Studs are the way to go so that you can either have the sling or not, depending on the situation. My initial preference was to stay away from the too tactical look of the long mag extension so I went with a single round extension w/ QD stud as seen here (http://www.wilsoncombat.com/store.cgi?&shop=city&cart=25759368x90897&session=3e54104763110e88&L=eng&P=SGET-QDS-U-1-870)

As always, YMMV

[DT Guy]

I would just add that anyone who uses ANY slung (slinged?) weapon should practice retaining the slung weapon during a physical confrontation.

Yes, the bad guy might be rendered dead, or give up, but you should always consider the possiblity of contact distance engagements requiring weapon retention skills. One consideration of the slung weapon is that it offers excellent opportunities for an assailant to use the weapon to control your movements via the sling.

One should practice disengaging the sling, 'shooting off' someone grappling for the weapon and a (relatively) safe way of rendering the weapon inop if you find yourself fighting for it. (The equivalent of the 'drop and pop' you'd use with a carbine while transitioning to a sidearm, for instance.)

Just my .02,

Larry

[oldpaladin]

Folks, I'd have to opt for the sling for several reasons... Back when the world was much younger, we trained with rifles that were rigged with slings... These were very tightly kept, when not on the rifle range. You get comfortable with things after a period of time... Have always had slings on all my rifles and shotguns... Like Col. Mustard, I have a sling with 10 loops for extra ammo, and a stock sleeve for 5 more rounds... My shotgun, a Benelli M1014, always has four rounds in the tube, and one on my night table... My sling is loaded, and pulled very, very tight. As such, it rides below the ejection port, and is not a problem for holding the forearm grip with my right hand. Ammo sleeve is on left side of gun, rather than grinding into left side of my face... I have no problems using the techniques I was trained in years ago, and have since honed after studying Steve Moses' wonderful book, Carbine and Shotgun Speed Shooting, from Paladin Press. House clearing is a non-issue, if the rest of family is safe... If you don't have to move around, stay under cover, and call in the cavalry... Otherwise, remember: Stupid is, as stupid does, and therefore, stupid is dead... If you have to move from cover, use your head, or lose it. Like others on the list, if my shotgun is to hand, I might not even think of my GLOCK21 as a first choice... If time is of the essence, the GLOCK is faster. If hearing noise awakes me, the shotgun is first. If the alarm goes off, the GLOCK is quicker... I'm not "wed" to either, but if the smelly, sticky stuff hits the oscillating, rotary impellor, I'll try to grab both- 11 of .45acp and 5 of 12ga #1Buck can be a convincing argument to leave me and mine alone... :D

Regards and Respects,
Carter F. Leffen, oldpaladin, out...