Two finger trigger?


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DaveyMG
July 19, 2013, 09:11 PM
I may have simply missed it when scanning over the BATFE's website, but is there any law against a semiauto firearm having a trigger that can be operated with 2 fingers? Ala paintball gun? I'm doing a home build UZI and figured since I need to do a sizeable amount of machine work and welding to make full auto operation a non-option I could have a bit of fun reworking the trigger and trigger guard to accommodate both the pointer finger and middle finger... But thought it a good idea to double check the legality of such a modification before pulling out the grinder...
Thanks!

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rcmodel
July 19, 2013, 09:26 PM
No law against it.

However if your trigger is so hard to pull it needs two fingers to pull it?

You need to do some more design work on your trigger mechanism before going into the machine shop to make it..

rc

thefish
July 19, 2013, 09:31 PM
No law against it.

However if your trigger is so hard to pull it needs two fingers to pull it?

You need to do some more design work on your trigger mechanism before going into the machine shop to make it..

rc
I think what he means is a trigger with two finger slots, so you can feather the trigger between the index and second finger for faster firing.

danez71
July 19, 2013, 09:35 PM
I think what he means is a trigger with two finger slots, so you can feather the trigger between the index and second finger for faster firing.

Yea... what I think he's talking about is that the trigger is like a rocker switch (or like a teeter totter) and you fire by using both fingers individually and rocking the trigger back and forth.

Interesting question. I would guess legal but its the ATF we're talking about.

Rob G
July 19, 2013, 09:47 PM
Yea... what I think he's talking about is that the trigger is like a rocker switch (or like a teeter totter) and you fire by using both fingers individually and rocking the trigger back and forth.

Not exactly. Double triggers are often used on paintball guns and they actually work just like a standard trigger. They're just longer and have a second curve to them so there's an obvious place for both fingers to go. Basically you train yourself to "walk" the trigger so that one finger squeezes and as it releases the second finger squeezes. With a little practice you can achieve an incredible rate of fire.

I'm going to guess that the OP has experience with paintball guns and wants to modify his so he can use this technique. I can't think of any reason at all that this wouldn't be legal.

DaveyMG
July 20, 2013, 02:39 AM
Yeah I'm building a gun from parts, and it's originally a select fire (safe, semi, and full auto) but I have to modify a few parts to make it a legal build, by machining a few bars and welding them in, as well as machining a step on the bolt, among other things. So I know the gun's moving parts are capable of ~800 rounds/minute, but I still have to neuter it for ATF legality, and make it capable of semi only operation. I am just trying to think of a way to allow it to still be occasionally fun to mag dump at the range closer to that ~800rpm area (just to get conversations started with curious onlookers) so I figured the paintball-esque double trigger might give me the best of both worlds, so I can keep it technically semi auto, but have a happy trigger finger(s) on the rare occasion.

Centurian22
July 20, 2013, 02:49 AM
What an amazingly innovative concept!!! Major cudos to you for thinking of this and pursuing its implementation! Please keep us posted about this project! Now that you've said it I actually can't believe it hasn't been tried / accomplished before. With the huge market for "slide fire" stocks to accomplish the same feat of near "full auto" rates of fire with legal semi auto firearms I could even see there being a market for 'drop in trigger replacements' with the double trigger. Particularly if paired with an 'extra roomy' trigger guard for winter glove use as is seen on some AR's.

P.S. If you make millions with this idea I want a cut ;-)

Deus Machina
July 20, 2013, 04:54 AM
The reason it works for paintball guns is that they have a foregrip and you can use the tank as a stock.
Neither of which you can have on a handgun without further paperwork, and leaving yourself holding it with your thumb and two fingers is less stable anyway.
And that's not even counting the way players will fire the electronic markers by holding the foregrip, often releasing the true grip completely, and alternating between index and middle fingers to reach some surprising rates of fire.
Not that a two-finger trigger on an uzi would be bad, and it would feel great and be plenty of fun, just not as conductive to accuracy.

pikid89
July 20, 2013, 05:28 AM
the 2 finger trigger thing on paintball guns is more complicated than that. You can walk the electronic triggers since the pull weight is measured in ounces, but a mechanical 2 finger trigger cannot be walked since the weight is too high to just bounce of your finger. A 2 finger gun trigger would be the same way....just extra leverage, no measurable increase in speed i would imagine

danez71
July 20, 2013, 10:57 AM
I was picturing the rocking trigger like this. http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/3477/


Huh.... learn something new everyday. I'm glad I got that out of the way.... now the rest of the day I can take off and not try to learn anything new. :uhoh:

DaveyMG
July 20, 2013, 11:21 AM
Who said anything about a handgun? I'm building an UZI carbine in 9mm. Folding stock, grip, and forward handguard. And maybe I've gotta rework the sear a bit anyway to make it legally semiautomatic, so might as well polish what I can to drop the pull weight to just a couple pounds while I'm in there... It's a slow project. I've only got the parts kit and barrel so far, the receiver should be coming Mid-August if all goes well.

blarby
July 23, 2013, 02:48 AM
With a vic board, I can walk my impulse at about 30 BPS on a good day- more often than not about 20- as I'm very out of practice.

Nice part ? PB's don't have recoil. My impy also fires on depression AND release, which is a big no-no in firearms without all the paperwork, tax, and legalese.

I would not want that amount of recoil in a firearm. I highly doubt you could control it in that platform sufficiently to walk it correctly.

Legally, you can do anything to the trigger and assembly you wish, providing its still one actuation/ one round, and isn't mechanically assisted. ( like a power crank)

Now, would I like to handle a firearm with a trigger so sensitive that I could walk it like my impulse ?

Absolutely freakin not. I can shake my impy with not too much force, and make paint fly out.

But, thats with a trigger button- not an actual trigger/sear assembly.

If you just wanted a long paddle so that you could chop-stick it ? Meh, go for it !

tyeo098
July 23, 2013, 09:42 AM
Thats the major underlying issue here.

PB guns have electronic firing mechanisms, with almost 0 takeup and break. Its like hitting a remote button.

Any firearm that has the same poundage to be able to walk the trigger on a mechanical system would be literally too light to safely handle.

CoRoMo
July 23, 2013, 10:49 AM
My impy also fires on depression AND release, which is a big no-no in firearms without all the paperwork, tax, and legalese.
The portion that I emboldened is not true.

The ATF has long allowed the modification of a trigger so that the gun fires once upon pulling the trigger and then fires again when the trigger is released/reset. It sounds like two shots with one function of the trigger, but the bureau doesn't see it that way; two shots from two functions.

See this thread and the determination from the ATF: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=62411

I don't pretend to think that an uzi's fire controls could be modified to replicate a Mini-14 mod like this, but the OP should look into it because that sounds a lot like what he's trying to achieve.

blarby
July 26, 2013, 06:12 PM
Well, I'll be damned.

You learn somethin every day.

I want my M4 to do this.

DaveyMG
July 26, 2013, 07:01 PM
Now that is an interesting thing to think about, once for pull once for release... I might have to give that some thought.

The Teacher
August 1, 2013, 11:53 AM
Came across this today and remembered this thread.

http://firedtr.com/ (http://firedtr.com)

http://imageshack.us/a/img189/3964/og0j.jpg

p2000sk
August 1, 2013, 09:20 PM
That appears to be their original design. They offer 5 variations. If I had $275 burning a hole in my pocket, I would order the "D-TR Drop In Double NB".

dogtown tom
August 1, 2013, 10:41 PM
DaveyMG Yeah I'm building a gun from parts, and it's originally a select fire (safe, semi, and full auto)
ATF says once a machine gun, always a machine gun.

If your receiver was ever built as a machine gun as you say.......... you better have a tax stamp.:uhoh:

tyeo098
August 2, 2013, 11:34 AM
I think he means an M16 parts kit.

Those are plentiful.

Deer_Freak
August 2, 2013, 01:28 PM
Another thing paintball guns lack is recoil. Muzzle jump slows the rate of fire much more than the ability to pull the trigger. I can't fire more than a 2 or 3 shot burst with a 10/22 without stopping to reacquire the target. Just the momentum of the bolt throws me off target.

DaveyMG
August 8, 2013, 09:04 PM
I'm building an UZI with a new semiauto receiver and modified (to become Semiauto only) SMG parts kit.

DaveyMG
August 10, 2013, 02:10 AM
That D-TR replaces the AR trigger, sear, and trigger guard, which, with a set screw and some light honing, could probably work almost paintball-gun-esque...
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f180/daveygunit/null-57.jpg

xxjumbojimboxx
August 10, 2013, 02:18 AM
it requires a very light trigger to work well, and good timing, effectively you have the ability to multiply your rate of fire by 2.. (maybe 1.8) but the trigger still needs to reset. If you gun has a deep trigger reset, the double trigger may not be effective. Either way I don't see it harming the gun one bit and at the very worst you simply have a long trigger with two curves vs a normal trigger. I also think recoil would minimize your ability to walk the gun, you've now take then strongest support finger off the grip and onto a new trigger... Let us know how it goes... Worked wonders in paintball... not sure it will be the same for real stuff.

DaveyMG
August 10, 2013, 05:23 PM
I'll definitely let y'all know how it works. The main gun I intend to use it for (or try anyway) is my 9mm UZI rifle carbine so recoil with the shoulder stock extended should be nearly non-existent. The trigger pull might need a bit of tweaking, but it should be a good conversation starter regardless.

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