the fastest handgun in the world ?


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two gun charlie
July 21, 2013, 07:28 AM
which semi-automatic handgun has the fastest action of all ? in other words if you had the fastest trigger finger in the world which handgun would have no problem keeping up , which handgun would send the most bullets down the range in the shortest possible time.:scrutiny: (I am not talking about automatic handguns)

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kwguy
July 21, 2013, 07:45 AM
From drawing to firing? Is there a safety involved that needs to be disengaged? Or is it simply the actual lock time from squeezing the trigger to the hammer / striker falling and hitting the firing pin? That's a pretty large question...

two gun charlie
July 21, 2013, 07:55 AM
no , forget the draw and all that , simply what handgun can send the most bullets down the range in the quickest possible time , using the same ammo.
the fastest action in other words :D and yes it's a tough question

JTQ
July 21, 2013, 07:59 AM
From drawing to firing? Is there a safety involved that needs to be disengaged? Or is it simply the actual lock time from squeezing the trigger to the hammer / striker falling and hitting the firing pin? That's a pretty large question...
Most of the top competition shooter use a 1911 style pistol that has a "safety that needs to be disengaged", and it doesn't hold them back.

As fast as a 1911 is, I've seen video of both Jerry Miculek and Bob Munden shoot revolvers faster than their 1911's, both are (Munden was, he passed away within the last year) also very good with the 1911, but since they are so fast, they have to wait for the slide to cycle with the auto pistol.

two gun charlie
July 21, 2013, 08:32 AM
you worded my question better , which has the fastest slide cycling rate :D

hentown
July 21, 2013, 08:49 AM
It's not a tough question; however, since you've excluded automatics, e.g., the Glock 18, then you apparently don't understand the question. :evil:

two gun charlie
July 21, 2013, 09:24 AM
I can't buy a fully automatic pistol here , so that is why I exluded it

greenlion
July 21, 2013, 09:27 AM
How could anyone know this for sure? You would have to build a machine that could pull the trigger in faster and faster increments and hook it up to each individual pistol to test it. Like someone said, you have to wait for the slide to cycle and the sights to return before you pull the trigger again, or you would just be spraying random bullets. If you simply want to know which pistols are fastest in the real world, look at some of the pistols used in shooting competitions where time matters.

Coyote3855
July 21, 2013, 09:37 AM
How could anyone know this for sure? You would have to build a machine that could pull the trigger in faster and faster increments and hook it up to each individual pistol to test it. Like someone said, you have to wait for the slide to cycle and the sights to return before you pull the trigger again, or you would just be spraying random bullets. If you simply want to know which pistols are fastest in the real world, look at some of the pistols used in shooting competitions where time matters.

Which would be some version of the 1911.

two gun charlie
July 21, 2013, 10:05 AM
How could anyone know this for sure?

Believe me buddy somewhere in the world there is somebody who knows this , and that is who I am looking for , or anyone who can take a calculated guess , that is why I am asking , so that I don't have to try and figure out something that someone else already knows ...:scrutiny: that is what forums are all about right :D

MrBorland
July 21, 2013, 10:12 AM
Actions already cycle faster than any human trigger finger. I saw Miculek bump-fire a 1911 at 600 rounds per minute - not even he can do that with his trigger finger. And if you've ever heard a semi-auto go auto for 2 or so rounds (usually a 1911 because someone likely messed with the sear too aggressively), you can hear it's far faster than anyone can actually pull the trigger.

AethelstanAegen
July 21, 2013, 10:51 AM
that is why I am asking , so that I don't have to try and figure out something that someone else already knows

I think the simple fact of the matter that in just about everyone's hands, it's a total wash. Pretty much every semi-auto will cycle faster than you can pull the trigger and certainly faster than you can both re-aim and pull the trigger again. Of the several semi-auto pistols I own, none of them seem to be any faster than the others. I'm sure there are the differences of fractions of a second between them but you'd never know it and it would never make a difference while shooting.

rcmodel
July 21, 2013, 11:33 AM
The cyclic rate of the Glock 18 and Beretta 93R is said to be 1,100 - 1,300 rounds per minute.

Or about 20 shots per second.

Any other recoil operated semi-auto pistol based on the Browning design would have a similar cyclic rate if it were full auto.

As you can see, how fast the slide cycles is a purely academic question, because nobody can pull the trigger faster then the slide cycles on any semi-auto pistol design.

rc

Sheepdog1968
July 21, 2013, 11:43 AM
I'd look up what Jerry Mitchlek (sp) has used. If any one is likely to push it to the limits it's him.

allaroundhunter
July 21, 2013, 11:48 AM
Jerry Miculek and Bob Munden do not use revolvers because they pull the trigger on semi's too fast.... Jerry's split times with a handgun are around .12 seconds, which is more than enough time for any semi automatic pistol to cycle.

two gun charlie
July 21, 2013, 11:48 AM
Thanks RC and Sheepdog , I want this information because I am planning a little "modification" and I need to buy a pistol that will be able to cycle really, really fast :D

allaroundhunter
July 21, 2013, 12:23 PM
Thanks RC and Sheepdog , I want this information because I am planning a little "modification" and I need to buy a pistol that will be able to cycle really, really fast :D

You may be walking a fine (legal and safety) line, so be careful.

two gun charlie
July 21, 2013, 12:39 PM
I like living on the edge , what can I say :cool:

murf
July 21, 2013, 12:51 PM
ed mcgivern's record is 5 shots in 2/5 seconds. that is equal to 750 rounds per minute. a colt 1911 cycle rate is 600 rounds per minute. i'm sure a lighter, faster bullet out of an auto will cycle much faster than either of these weapons, but in 1934 that's all they had to play with (i'm assuming the mauser and luger were not an option).

murf

Delmar
July 21, 2013, 01:14 PM
Couldn't tell you what the cyclic rate was, but I wore a sear on a Government model down to the point where it fired 3 shots so fast that at first I didn't realize what had happened-just that something felt different.

The first indication that it went full auto was 4 holes in a fresh target, and the last case was trapped between the barrel and the slide:uhoh:

Back into my parts bag for a new sear!

Prince Yamato
July 21, 2013, 01:19 PM
It's going to be a sub-compact- they have the shortest cycling slides.

Another way of asking the question and getting the same result is, "which semi-auto, when converted with an auto sear, has the highest cyclic rate?"

A glock 26, converted to full auto, fires faster than a 17/18.

Therefore, it could be reasonably assumed, given that Glocks tending to have a shorter trigger reset than many semi-autos, would be the fastest cycling and firing; the Glock 26 probably meeting your criteria.

mavracer
July 21, 2013, 01:21 PM
Any locked breach action is going to be slower than a straight blow back. Also most SA service caliber autos are of the JMB tilting barrel design I'd almost bet that changing the recoil spring rate would affect rate more than the brand on the slide.

raubvogel
July 21, 2013, 02:37 PM
I always thought a SA revolver would be much faster than any semi

rbernie
July 21, 2013, 02:43 PM
I wonder how the HK P7 would stack up from a cyclic rate, since it's gas operated and uses a fluted cylinder to ease extraction....

TestPilot
July 21, 2013, 02:58 PM
It depends on the shooter, gun, and the situation.

I have a 1911 with a great feeling trigger, but I will pick my M&P 40 for combat.

There is not much of a speed difference in how fast I can pull the trigger between the two.

Sure, the 1911 have a lighter trigger, but that does not mean I can just jamm on the trigger and expect hits.

Now, that does not mean I think M&P is the "fastest pistol." I am not aware of any pistol that cannot keep up with a speed of human trigger finger speed, although I do think heavy and long DAO trigger will slow a shooter down the most.

People who advocate manual firing inhibitor like to say it does not slow them down because the manipulation is done during the drawing motion or transition from ready to firing position.

Problem with that argument is that it is not always true.

Each of them have different doctrine of how manual firing inhibitor is used, and depending on the doctrine it can be a problem , especially in regards to situations where a user has to frequently switch between engaged and disengaged position in quick succession.

1911Tuner
July 21, 2013, 05:13 PM
a colt 1911 cycle rate is 600 rounds per minute.

The cyclic rate is more than double that. I've fired a legal open bolt FA Mac 11 in .380 caliber...one of the old ones...and it burns'em up quick. The advertised cyclic rate is 1250 rpms. The 1911 in full auto is at least that fast.

i'm sure a lighter, faster bullet out of an auto will cycle much faster

I seriously doubt if that would make any difference at all in a locked breech pistol.

And in a straight blowback, you could increase the slide velocity a little rearward by bumping up the pressure...but that has a limit unless you're into blowing cases. Velocity forward is limited by the spring rate. I suppose you could increase pressure to proof levels and up the spring rate...assuming that you can find a stouter spring for a given straight blowback design...but the increase in cyclic rate would be too small for the exercise to be of any practical consequence.

usp9
July 21, 2013, 05:17 PM
My vote goes to my Walther P99 QA, which stands for "Quick Action". I think all of my guns cycle and reset much faster than I'm able to control, aim and shoot well however.

Swing
July 21, 2013, 05:22 PM
I realize we're talking about semi-autos, but if you include full-autos, I think the little Trejo .22LR would rank pretty high. IIRC, its cyclic is around 1,400+/- RPM. :D

Back to the original question, as other said, pretty much anything is going to cycle faster than you can pull the trigger on a semi-auto.

Barry the Bear
July 21, 2013, 05:31 PM
Colt SAA in the hands of bob munden

jmr40
July 21, 2013, 05:36 PM
A 1911 or Glock have pretty short trigger resets. Others may be faster, but those would be my GUESS based on my experience.

A shooter who knows what he is doing can shoot a DA revolver faster than a common shooter with most semi-autos.

greenlion
July 21, 2013, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by two-gun-charlie:
Believe me buddy somewhere in the world there is somebody who knows this , and that is who I am looking for , or anyone who can take a calculated guess , that is why I am asking , so that I don't have to try and figure out something that someone else already knows ... that is what forums are all about right

I don't believe you ... until you find that guy and post the research results for us to see.

Seriously though, I don't even see why anyone would have tried to answer that question for a semi-auto pistol.

SharpsDressedMan
July 21, 2013, 07:05 PM
Try a Makarov. Fast on all counts.

back40
July 21, 2013, 07:10 PM
i'd love to hear about the "modification" you have planned. are the laws such in the republic of south africa that you can legally modify a semi auto handgun in that way?

JohnKSa
July 21, 2013, 08:54 PM
The cyclic rate is more than double that.Correct. The lowest figure I can find for a 1911 cyclic rate is 1100rpm....if you had the fastest trigger finger in the world which handgun would have no problem keeping up...No one has ever demonstrated the ability to run a typical semi-auto faster than it is capable of cycling despite claims to the contrary. The numbers are pretty conclusive, and until someone documents the ability to shoot splits (shot-to-shot intervals) that are shorter than 0.055 seconds, the cyclic rate of the pistol is not the limiting factor.As fast as a 1911 is, I've seen video of both Jerry Miculek and Bob Munden shoot revolvers faster than their 1911's, both are (Munden was, he passed away within the last year) also very good with the 1911, but since they are so fast, they have to wait for the slide to cycle with the auto pistol.No human has ever documented the ability to shoot a DA revolver faster than a 1911 can cycle. The 1911 system is capable of cycling at a rate of well over 1000 rounds per minute. 18 or 19 rounds per second is about right from what I can determine. Other semi-auto pistols are similar--the Glock runs around 1100rpm and the Beretta 92 is higher at 1200-1300rpm.

Miculek is capable of shooting about 8 or 9 shots a second with a DA revolver. McGivern's record has him shooting 5 shots in 2/5 of a second which if you work it all out ends up being somewhere between 11 and 13 shots per second if you trust the very limited capability timing equipment he used. Both much slower than a typical semi-auto pistol can cycle.

Munden was probably capable of achieving a single split (two shot interval) that was shorter than a semi-auto could match by using a specialized fanning technique on a heavily modified single action revolver--not by actually pulling the trigger. My best estimate from watching slow motion videos was a split of about 0.03 or less. He was able to get 2 shots off so fast that the ear couldn't resolve the report into two sounds. However, his actual rate of fire for 5 or 6 shots was much slower since the fanning technique he used for the 2 shot demonstration wasn't adaptable to a longer string of fire than 2 shots.

Munden's feat does demonstrate that a revolver CAN theoretically cycle faster than an autopistol (assuming it's beefed up to take the abuse involved with violently starting and stopping the cylinder rotation that the feat requires. However, in practice it's not possible for a human trigger finger to drive a revolver mechanism fast enough to make it happen--at least no one has ever documented such an ability.

barnbwt
July 22, 2013, 12:27 AM
"Jerry Miculek and Bob Munden do not use revolvers because they pull the trigger on semi's too fast.... Jerry's split times with a handgun are around .12 seconds, which is more than enough time for any semi automatic pistol to cycle."

Do we care about aimed fire? How long after the slide returns to battery does its momentum continue to affect the shooter's hand? My CZ52 noticeably jarred my hand downward after each shot; faster than my finger could pull, but slow enough to distract me. Replacing the worn/weak spring with a stonger Wolff model cycles the slide fast enough, that by the time I perceive recoil has "ended" there is no additional motion to counteract as the barrel is brought down. Revolvers are "faster" for the same reason; no moving parts between trigger pulls.

TCB

AKElroy
July 22, 2013, 01:02 AM
Thanks RC and Sheepdog , I want this information because I am planning a little "modification" and I need to buy a pistol that will be able to cycle really, really fast

Dude--- you're aware this is a public forum, right? You may be about 30 years too late for the wrong "modification".

allaroundhunter
July 22, 2013, 02:12 AM
"Jerry Miculek and Bob Munden do not use revolvers because they pull the trigger on semi's too fast.... Jerry's split times with a handgun are around .12 seconds, which is more than enough time for any semi automatic pistol to cycle."

Do we care about aimed fire? How long after the slide returns to battery does its momentum continue to affect the shooter's hand? My CZ52 noticeably jarred my hand downward after each shot; faster than my finger could pull, but slow enough to distract me. Replacing the worn/weak spring with a stonger Wolff model cycles the slide fast enough, that by the time I perceive recoil has "ended" there is no additional motion to counteract as the barrel is brought down. Revolvers are "faster" for the same reason; no moving parts between trigger pulls.

TCB

Aimed fire? When these guys shoot that fast they aren't "aiming". They are point shooting at a target close enough that their natural recoil control allows then to pull the trigger as fast as they physically can and still be on target. The fact that they hit the target is great, but even if they were okay with missing they wouldn't be any faster. I have shot with Jerry, and that is what he said. His daughter, Lena, said the same thing about his shooting.

easyg
July 22, 2013, 12:14 PM
I think that a short barreled blow-back would be fastest, all other things being equal.

My CZ 83 is very fast.
And it's very controllable because it's a relatively heavy .380 pistol with a full grip.

murf
July 23, 2013, 12:15 AM
the thompson sub machine gun is a blowback design, fires the 45 acp cartridge and has a cycle rate of 600 - 750 rounds per minute.

pphs41 russian sub machine gun - 900 rpm
m3a1 grease gun - 350 - 450 rpm
m2 50 cal. machine gun - 400 to 550 rpm
browning automatic rifle - 450/650 rpm select fire

source: koreanwaronline.com

can't find the source for the 600 rpm cycle rate on the colt 1911, yet. i'll let you know when i find it. in the mean time, johnksa and tuner, i'd appreciate it if you both would list your source(s) for your claims.

murf

allaroundhunter
July 23, 2013, 12:48 AM
Murf, some Thompson models go up to 1250 rpm.

1911s go upwards of 950 rpm. Jerry Miculek was able to hit 650 rpm by pulling the trigger with his right index finger while holding the gun in his left hand.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=16878

JohnKSa
July 23, 2013, 12:55 AM
pphs41 russian sub machine gun - 900 rpm
m3a1 grease gun - 350 - 450 rpm
m2 50 cal. machine gun - 400 to 550 rpm
browning automatic rifle - 450/650 rpm select fireAll of the guns you list are automatic rifles, crew-served weapons or submachineguns, not locked breech pistols. Furthermore, an extremely high cyclic rate is generally considered undesirable so most of those designs have features built in especially to keep the cyclic rate fairly low.

Source for the Glock cyclic rate is the armorers course materials for the G18 which is a full auto version of the 17 for all practical purposes.

Source for the Beretta 92 cyclic rate is based on the 93R cyclic rate. The 93R is basically a full-auto 92 but is actually suppoed to have a cyclic rate retarder to drop the cyclic rate a little.

Source for the 1911 is various. I've poked around over the years and read a lot on the topic. One of the best ways to determine it is to find people who have had a timer on one when it accidentally went full auto.

This thread is an example of that:
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22967
One source mentions timer data from 1911 that went full-auto citing splits in the 0.05 to 0.06 range (1200 to 1000rpm) . A number of other shooters on the thread confirm that number.

Here's a description of a full-auto 1911 variant that had a cyclic rate of 1000rpm--the weight of the compensator would have slowed the rate of fire somewhat which makes a 1100 rpm rate credible for an unmodified 1911.
http://www.guns.com/2012/09/26/lebman-1911-machine-pistol/

murf
July 23, 2013, 03:17 AM
johnksa,

found some more info on wikipedia (i know, don't laugh). the h&k vp70 - 2200 rpm (3 round bursts), glock 18 - 1100 to 1200 rpm, beretta 93r - 1100 rpm (3 round bursts), c96 mauser (model 711 and 712) - 1000 rpm, mac 10 - 1145 rpm (45acp).

also, the early thompsons would fire at 2200 rpm.

still doesn't change the fact that the colt 1911 as tested bu army ordinance had a cycle rate of 600 rpm. i'll find the reference one of these days.

interesting stuff. if you want the wiki info look under "machine pistol".

murf

1911Tuner
July 23, 2013, 05:29 AM
Murf, I guess you must be assuming that I don't have any experience with full auto weapons or 1911s going sideways and burst firing after a botched trigger job.

At one time, I worked for a Class 3 dealer and had the opportunity to fire a good many full auto arms...including a few Uzis that actually did have a 600 rpm cyclic rate.

I never had occasion to measure the cyclic rate of a malfunctioning 1911 that goes burp...but I've fired .45 Mac 10s that are advertised at 1075 rpms...and a 1911 is noticeably faster.

And if you'd ever had one take off on you, you'd have known.

raubvogel
July 23, 2013, 06:28 AM
What was the firing rate of the P08 in Reihenfeuerpistolen trim?

scythefwd
July 23, 2013, 07:53 AM
I've seen jerry run faster than 600 rpm in a 1911. It is much faster than that.

The 93R is basically a full-auto 92 but is actually suppoed to have a cyclic rate retarder to drop the cyclic rate a little
The 93 is an interesting little beast. Instead of just having the hammer follow and strike immediately after the slide returns to battery, it actually waits to drop the hammer. The slide fully returns to battery with the hammer back and then the hammer flies.. was interesting to see in slow motion.

1911Tuner
July 23, 2013, 08:25 AM
The slide fully returns to battery with the hammer back and then the hammer flies.. was interesting to see in slow motion.

That's how they all work. If the hammer simply rode down with the slide, the gun wouldn't fire. It has to hold full cock and get tripped.

mes228
July 23, 2013, 08:26 AM
Someone in this thread mentioned "Bump Fire" on a 1911. I've tried to shoot like McCulik (spelling?) and can fire several rounds a second with reasonable accuracy at 7 yards. However, I do not remotely approach McCulick's speed. Someone explain how you bump fire a 1911?

LeonCarr
July 23, 2013, 08:56 AM
A Master Class USPSA shooter told me once upon a time that the slide on a 1911 reciprocates in 4/100s of a second. For comparison most of the semiauto shotguns on the market today cycle in 12-13/100s of a second. I have never heard of someone fire two rounds and having "split times" or time between shots of 4/100s of a second, due to the reaction time involved when tripping the second shot after the first.

For comparison most world class fast draw competitors can draw, fire, and hit with a single action revolver in around .200 of a second or 20/100s of a second.

To answer the OPs question, I would say the 1911 has the fastest cyclic rate, but I have yet to see an in depth study of the cyclic rates of other handguns using high speed photography or any other high tech measuring devices. If somebody knows of one, please let us know. That would be a great read :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

1911Tuner
July 23, 2013, 09:59 AM
To answer the OPs question, I would say the 1911 has the fastest cyclic rate, but I have yet to see an in depth study of the cyclic rates of other handguns using high speed photography or any other high tech measuring devices.

The 9mm H&K VP70 was a blowback operated pistol that sported an 18-round magazine. It was, for all practical purposes, a machine pistol. Attaching the shoulder stock provided 3-round bursts at a blazing (advertised) 2,000 rpms. Having fired one, I can believe that figure. It was some kinda fast. You could buy the VP70 legally just like any other semi-auto pistol. Add the shoulder stock, and you had to ante up the cost+the 200-dollar stamp.

two gun charlie
July 23, 2013, 12:57 PM
The 9mm H&K VP70 was a blowback operated pistol that sported an 18-round magazine. It was, for all practical purposes, a machine pistol.

:D me likes

1911Tuner
July 23, 2013, 01:45 PM
me likes

If you'd ever handled one, you wouldn't. Designed and intended to be used with the shoulder stock in 3-round bursts, that thing had the hands-down worst trigger on the planet. It was a long action, straight pull, "DA Only" striker-fired, and while I never measured it...I wouldn't hesitate to bet that it would've hit 20 pounds. Forget quick follow-up shots, and by the time you got through a whole magazine, your hand was so tired you weren't interested in shooting it for a while.

I wish I had the one back that I owned for a short time...for the money that I paid for it...but only because they bring ridiculous prices for some obscure reason.

They were a hoot as a subgun in burst mode...but as a pistol they just blew.

jstein650
July 23, 2013, 08:25 PM
I'd bet a .22 LR in the right rifle would be way up there too. I had a Mossberg, tube fed through the butt that had some sear issue. When it would pop of 2 or 3 rds. in the occasional full auto, you couldn't distinguish the shots. Just sounded louder!

JohnKSa
July 24, 2013, 12:20 AM
still doesn't change the fact that the colt 1911 as tested bu army ordinance had a cycle rate of 600 rpm.The only possible explanation I can give for that is that's as fast as they were able to get their best guy to pull the trigger. That would fit very well with what's achievable by the top pistol shooters today with a semi-auto pistol.

Clearly there is good documentation that when a 1911 goes full auto, the cyclic rate is somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200rpm, and I provided a link to a full-auto 1911 variant with a cyclic rate of 1,000 rpm so I don't think there's any question about what the mechanism itself is capable of.It was a long action, straight pull, "DA Only" striker-fired, and while I never measured it...I wouldn't hesitate to bet that it would've hit 20 pounds.Impressively bad is how I would describe it. Definitely a hindrance to good accuracy when used as a pistol.

Ron James
July 24, 2013, 01:21 AM
If I read two gun correctly, he doesn't want a fully automatic gun, he wants one he can empty, with his finger, really fast. Any modern High cap pistol, That is trigger action on the first shot will fit your needs. I think in this case you should go with a Glock.

dcarch
July 24, 2013, 01:23 AM
Not trying to judge you in any way, but please, please be certain that you are in accordance with your local and regional laws. As other posters have stated, not only could this be used as evidence against you in a court, but it could also reflect very poorly against the greater community of gun owners. The anti-gunners already like to portray us as having a deadly disregard for the law... let's not give them ammo to fuel that argument. With that being said, if what you're planning is within the scope of the law, be sure and have fun! It is indeed a fortunate thing to be able to fire a fully automatic firearm, let alone own one. :)

two gun charlie
July 24, 2013, 02:00 AM
hi dc , I live in africa , need I say more ? :D

1911Tuner
July 24, 2013, 06:50 AM
If I read two gun correctly, he doesn't want a fully automatic gun, he wants one he can empty, with his finger, really fast.

Understood. The discussion on full auto cyclic rates offer evidence that they're all faster than anyone can pull the trigger, and that all he has to do is pick the one that HE can shoot the fastest.

two gun charlie
July 24, 2013, 08:14 AM
well don't worry about straying off topic a little it's all just for interest sake anyway , mostly

pockets
July 24, 2013, 09:05 AM
the fastest handgun in the world ?
Russian made TP-82 in its pistol configuration.
It would have been clocked at least 15,000 mph in a Soyuz spacecraft.
(I have not found the USA admitting that they carried handguns aboard US spacecraft.)
.

murf
July 24, 2013, 11:26 AM
johnksa,

thanks for your response on the sources. like two gun charlie says, it's just for interest sake.

from reading about cyclic rate it is obvious, to me, that gun designers can adjust the cyclic rate to whatever they desire (within reason). i don't know how they do it, but the numbers bear this out. whatever the customer wants, i guess

murf

1911Tuner
July 24, 2013, 12:12 PM
gun designers can adjust the cyclic rate to whatever they desire (within reason). i don't know how they do it, but the numbers bear this out

It's pretty much determined by and limited by the mass of the bolt and the return spring. A given bolt mass is accelerated to the rear. Its rate of acceleration is determined by the force that compels it. The bolt is then accelerated forward by the spring. Its rate of acceleration is determined by the spring's strength and rate.

Lowering the bolt's mass will cause it to accelerate more rapidly...but the spring will also decelerate more rapidly...so there's not much of a gain there, if any.

Upping the spring's rate will accelerate the bolt forward faster, but it'll also decelerate it faster...so again, little if any gain.

You can design a gas assist to accelerate the bolt at a faster rate reward...like on the German MG42 light machine gun...but you're also limited by the return spring. You can bump the spring's rate to give the bolt and little more forward speed, but you reach a point of diminishing returns when the spring gets too heavy for the operator to manipulate the bolt.

Cyclic rates in blowback submachineguns are generally set and controlled by the mass of the bolts and the return springs. Up the bolt mass with a given spring, and the gun slows down a bit. Lower the mass, and it speeds up a bit.

Another way is to shorten or lengthen the bolt travel. Longer distance=lower cyclic rate.

Back in the lawless 80s...before legislation banned possession of the bolt...an UZI could be converted to select fire by replacing the legal bolt with an open bolt, and removing a small tack-welded plate that allowed the selector to move to the 3rd position.

The idiots who flirted with a 5-year expense-paid vacation at Club Fed discovered that their new toys provided a furious cyclic rate of some 1250-1300 rpms rather than the 600-650 that they were expecting. The legal UZI semi-auto carbine limited bolt travel with a solid steel block, whereas the subgun didn't. They also discovered that the UZI wasn't designed for cyclic rates that high, and most of'em experienced a lot of malfunctions as a result.

two gun charlie
July 24, 2013, 12:43 PM
Russian made TP-82 in its pistol configuration.
It would have been clocked at least 15,000 mph in a Soyuz spacecraft.
(I have not found the USA admitting that they carried handguns aboard US spacecraft.)
.

:scrutiny: what were the russians doing in space with a handgun ? they must have been watching too many alien movies

two gun charlie
July 24, 2013, 12:49 PM
The idiots who flirted with a 5-year expense-paid vacation at Club Fed discovered that their new toys provided a furious cyclic rate of some 1250-1300 rpms rather than the 600-650 that they were expecting.

:D now that must have been a rush , must have sounded like a those miniguns they mount on the blackhawks :scrutiny: I think a saw an uzi in a gunshop a few weeks back maybe I should go pick it up :evil:

pockets
July 24, 2013, 01:01 PM
what were the russians doing in space with a handgun ? they must have been watching too many alien movies
Well....Russian ships parachute land in Siberia. They do not come in on a glide path for a nice smooth airbase runway with lots of people around to watch and assist.
So, from 1986 to 2006, their emergency kits contained the TP-82.
These have 2 smooth-bore upper barrels for 12.5x70 (shotgun & flares) and one rifled lower barrel of 5.45x39 (there was also a detachable shoulder stock...which doubled as a machete). Probably was a bottle opener and corkscrew in there somewhere as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TP-82

.

tarosean
July 24, 2013, 03:22 PM
Here is a vid of Jerey M playing around with 1911's
Shooting starts around 18:50
http://youtu.be/xgs3nse8rW0

two gun charlie
July 24, 2013, 03:55 PM
Well....Russian ships parachute land in Siberia.
.

seems like the russian space administration really thought the thing through , good thing it wasn't me or those cosmonauts would have been bear food ...sorry comrades I forgot you would be landing in bear country:cuss:

two gun charlie
July 24, 2013, 03:59 PM
that jerry guy's hands should be registered as lethal weapons ..able to transform any pistol into a weapon of mass destruction instantly

plexreticle
July 24, 2013, 05:11 PM
HK vp70 cyclic rate for 3 round bust is 1800-2200 rpm.

I don't know if this is the fastest but I'm sure it's up there.

JohnKSa
July 24, 2013, 11:52 PM
from reading about cyclic rate it is obvious, to me, that gun designers can adjust the cyclic rate to whatever they desire (within reason).Well, it's not easy at all to make it faster in a recoil operated system because you will get early opening and cartridge failures if you speed up the cycling velocity by any significant amount. It is possible to slow it down somewhat but even that is limited in a typical semi-auto pistol design because you can't play around much with size or weight.

If you're talking about subguns, fully automatic rifles or crew-served machineguns, then the designer has a lot more leeway to adjust the cyclic rate. In a semi-auto, recoil-operated pistol, there is not much leeway at all in either direction.

KYamateur
July 25, 2013, 12:45 AM
I don't have any scientific data but I own many 9mm and 1911 pistols. I have shot my friends FN 5.7 and that thing seems like it emties a magazine as fast as you can put it in. It may not be faster than the guns I have but it sure feels like it is.

1SOW
July 25, 2013, 02:00 AM
pockets: (I have not found the USA admitting that they carried handguns aboard US spacecraft.)

Incorrect. The moon mission did and I suspect some others. A list of on-board items is available with a search.

I was part of group decision-making effectiveness experiment that had to prioritize each item on the long list unaminously--sort of like a jury. The handgun was a revolver If memory serves.

two gun charlie
July 25, 2013, 02:18 AM
well I guess NASA figured rather be safe than sorry , did they state what kind of ammunition and how much was taken along ?

KYamateur
July 25, 2013, 09:13 AM
Someone mentioned Bump Firing earlier in this post. I do not believe that it is possible to bump fire a 1911 because of the grip safety. I have seen some idiots bump fire glocks off of their belly. I highly caution against ever trying to bump fire a pistol. Your control of the pistol is limited and the muzzle rises. It is a very dangerous procedure and an easy way to shoot yourself in the face.

Drail
July 25, 2013, 09:56 AM
They can all be bump fired if you know how to hold the gun. Trust me. We learned that trick 30 years ago.

1911Tuner
July 25, 2013, 10:38 AM
Your control of the pistol is limited and the muzzle rises. It is a very dangerous procedure and an easy way to shoot yourself in the face.

Nah. In one memorable surprise full-auto event with Ken Rainey's Kimber, I was emptying the magazine firing the gun one-handed. It moved up and to the right at approximately 45 degrees, and there was only about a 3 foot lateral dispersion on the berm from the first shot to the last. No rounds left the 10 foot high berm. With a firm 2-hand hold, I could keep 5 of the 7 rounds on a 12" wide X 16" high steel plate at 10 yards. The gun was just that fast.

After we played with it for a while, we brought it back to the house and fixed it.

Shoot member Ken Rainey a PM for confirmation. I haven't seen him post for a while, but I assume that he's still an active member.

They can all be bump fired if you know how to hold the gun. Trust me. We learned that trick 30 years ago.

Yep, and a 1911 is one of the easiest ones to do it with because of the light single-action trigger.

KYamateur
July 25, 2013, 11:05 AM
I don't doubt a 1911 can be bump fired, but I still refuse to shoot with or around someone who wants to do it with any pistol. I love guns, but I also respect their power.

Jim Watson
July 25, 2013, 11:09 AM
One of the gunzines built a mechanical trigger puller powered by a variable speed motor. They set up various semiautos in it and increased the speed every magazine full until the gun quit searing up. They topped out around 1200 rpm, about like a fast full auto; showing the limits of the machinery.

I think the periodical was Guns and Ammo, they used to do some shooting before degenerating into a collection of press releases. And the Feds were less interested in hassling somebody with a testbed like that even though it has since been decreed equivalent to a full auto.

MachIVshooter
July 25, 2013, 11:11 AM
As you can see, how fast the slide cycles is a purely academic question, because nobody can pull the trigger faster then the slide cycles on any semi-auto pistol design.

^^^^^^

This.

And, there's a reason most full autos have had their cyclic rates governed down. For one, there's not much use in a gun that empties it's magazine in 1-2 seconds. I've played with an early 1,200 RPM Thompson. Fun as it was, the gun was difficult to control, and that 20 round stick was gone in one second flat. Pretty useless in a real firefight, which is why the later Thompsons had rates reduced to ~650 RPM. Secondly, very few platforms can function reliably at very high cyclic rates. When 1911s go FA from worn parts, they are usually halted by a jam. Cartridges and spent cases just can't get where they need to be that fast. That's why truly blistering cyclic rates are usually achieved with multiple barrels and mechanical action. The fastest cycling rate I'm aware of in a small arm is the AN-94, with ~2,000 RPM-but that's only for the first two shots and is due to a really wacky operating mechanism. After that, it slows to 750 RPM.

allaroundhunter
July 25, 2013, 11:32 AM
:D now that must have been a rush , must have sounded like a those miniguns they mount on the blackhawks :scrutiny: I think a saw an uzi in a gunshop a few weeks back maybe I should go pick it up :evil:

Miniguns have RPMs in the 3000+ range....no shoulder fired weapon that I know of can get close to that.

barnbwt
July 25, 2013, 07:07 PM
That 1200 rpm limit is likely a function of the magazine. Any faster, the bullet stack can't rise fast enough, the bolt engagement when stripping a round is no longer correct, and it either shoots over the top or jams it down into the mag. You'd need the gun to mechanically feed itself to go much faster, I believe (belt or cam-feed). Anyone know how the magazine in the 3000rpm Phalanx gun works? Belt-fed 1911, anyone? :D

Also, I'm somewhat alarmed by the number of people who have "unintentionally" created illegal machine guns on here. Yes, it can happen when modifying sears to an unsafe level of engagement, but if you are intentionally modifying a trigger to be that sensitive, you are intentionally manufacturing a weapon that may fire multiple rounds with one pull of the trigger. Most certainly if you decide to live with "occasional malfunction" as seems to have been described by a couple folks here. It's definitely not something to take lightly or post online ;)

I dunno, maybe you're all SOTs (but I doubt it).

TCB

two gun charlie
July 26, 2013, 02:16 AM
what is SOT ?:scrutiny:

Dr.Rob
July 26, 2013, 05:53 AM
Back to the original question:

It is really TOUGH to see a Luger's action work even with a standard 24 frames per second film camera... sometimes even they miss it.

Nothing to do with WHO is firing it, just the speed of the action.

Unless a Luger is malfunctioning, you often can't SEE the action work it's so fast.

1911Tuner
July 26, 2013, 08:38 PM
Unless a Luger is malfunctioning, you often can't SEE the action work it's so fast.

Low reciprocating mass+stiff return spring will do it every time.

tarosean
July 26, 2013, 09:43 PM
what is SOT ?

Special Occupational Tax (ATF Stamp required to build machine guns)

MachIVshooter
July 27, 2013, 02:00 AM
Anyone know how the magazine in the 3000rpm Phalanx gun works?

The feed mechanism in the GAU series guns, from 7.62mm M134 to 30mm Vulcan, are all basically the same. Belt fed & electrically driven, they can feed, delink, chamber, fire & extract at a rate of 1,000+ RPM per barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXvZaEqi80o

If memory serves, only the M134 (GAU2) series are conventional percussion primed; all the bigger boys are electrically primed.

barnbwt
July 27, 2013, 11:01 AM
I have heard the Luger has an unusually fast cycle speed somewhere before (Tales of the Gun, maybe :confused:). Were those stocked versions ever made into automatic machine pistols? That'd be your answer (I couldn't find any info offhand-- I guess not many people want to run their 5000$, 80 year old piece on full auto :D)

Here's a cool video of the F/A Beretta 92, Glock 17, VZ61 (Skorpion), and Steyr TMP. The Steyr looks the fastest to me, and certainly seems to jump around less, being larger than the others
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arp6JvzmFTU
Favorite quote; "It's over so quickly" when the guy empties the Skorpion (20rnd magazine) :D

TCB

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