how can i use my c&r to get a freind a rifle?


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jon1996
March 21, 2004, 01:23 AM
hello,
is it possible and legal by any means for me to order a freind a rifle using my 03 curio and relic ffl? if i can how do i log it in my bound book?
thanks,
jon

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Moparmike
March 21, 2004, 01:32 AM
It depends on if you have to fill out a Form 4473. If you do, then you either have to be the "acutal purchaser" of the firearm, or you have to sell it to him. Otherwise, its a straw purchase. If its a gift, then its like you got it for yourself, I think.

glocksman
March 21, 2004, 01:41 AM
It is illegal for you to purchase a firearm with your C&R for the purpose of resale. The C&R license is meant only to facilitate the collecting of C&R arms.

This doesn't mean that you can't sell your C&R arms, just that you can't order one for your friend.

You can sell all or part of your personal collection, but to reiterate, you cannot order a gun specifically for the purpose of resale or other transfer, such as a gift.

If you do so and get caught (if I were an ATF inspector looking at your bound book and I noticed that you both logged in a gun and logged it out on the same day, I'd be asking you some pointed questions), it's a criminal offense.

entropy
March 21, 2004, 01:57 AM
Generally when I troll,I use a Daredevle;)

Sydwaiz
March 21, 2004, 02:06 AM
Buy 2 of the same rifle at the same time. Keep the best one and sell the other.

Treylis
March 21, 2004, 02:28 AM
I don't think anything's stopping you from buying it, saying, "Uh, I... don't like it. Friend, want to buy it?" and then "re-selling" it. After all, you didn't originally purchase it to re-sell it, you just didn't like it. It's not really a straw purchase that way.

If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me.

c_yeager
March 21, 2004, 02:32 AM
It is illegal for you to purchase a firearm with your C&R for the purpose of resale. The C&R license is meant only to facilitate the collecting of C&R arms.

This is not true. Selling is a part of collecting. It is illegal to conduct BUSINESS with a C&R. There is a lot of gray area between the two. But, they are distinct. For example, lets say you bought something today on your C&R and it suddenly rocketed up in value and you sold it at a significant profit. Thats OK, its part of collecting.

As far as buying a rifle for your brother just be sure to log it INTO your book when you recieve it. And log it OUT of your book when you 'sell' it to your brother. You can the selling price as "gift" or 1$ or whatever.

glocksman
March 21, 2004, 02:59 AM
ATF C&R introduction (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm)

For example, if a collector acquires curios or relics for the purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector would have to be licensed as a dealer in firearms under the GCA. The sole intent and purpose of the collector's license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain curio or relic firearms from outside his or her State of residence.


Using your C&R to obtain a firearm for resale is illegal under the circumstances described in the opening post.


I wasn't clear enough that selling arms already in your collection is perfectly legal, while ordering a firearm with the specific intent of selling it upon reciept is illegal.

Unlucky
March 21, 2004, 03:48 AM
Wait a month before logging it out to your friend or relative to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

cpileri
March 21, 2004, 04:24 AM
As with so many new C&R holders, in the past I got myself in a bit over my head and had to sell some off to get out of some debt.
I was sad but good credit is a BIG plus when buying a home!

Anyhow, to answer your question: one thing I made certain to do was ALWAYS, EVERY TIME, NO EXCEPTIONS sell for LESS THAN what I paid for it.

That way, no matter the date or whatever I always took a loss, which aint running a business!

I also made sure only to sell to active duty military officers (just so happens that most of the people I hang around with are such or their spouses): all have positive ID, US citizenship, no felonies, and at least secret clearance.

Also, obey all local laws: i.e. local prohibitions on private sales of handguns, etc.

I figure that covers me pretty well.

Hopefully, I will never never ever have to give up a firearm again. It was like losing a family member.

(sigh)

C-

c_yeager
March 21, 2004, 05:04 AM
For example, if a collector acquires curios or relics for the purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector would have to be licensed as a dealer in firearms under the GCA. The sole intent and purpose of the collector's license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain curio or relic firearms from outside his or her State of residence.

Correct, and if sale of one of your collected items privedes funds with which you can ENHANCE YOUR COLLECTION then its A-OK. Now if it provides funds to pay your rent thats another story all together.

Hkmp5sd
March 21, 2004, 07:25 AM
If your friend wants to buy a firearm, have him use an 01-FFL and pay a small transfer fee. If you want one of the same rifle, buy two and give him the one is worst shape.

Semantics aside, if you use your 03-FFL to buy a rifle for another person, it is an illegal act. Whatever bogus excuse is used, it is/was your intent to acquire the rifle for another person and bypass the federal laws on interstate transfer.

geojap
March 21, 2004, 09:29 AM
You can't explicitly buy with your C&R just to get the rifle into someone elses hands. What everyone said is true. However, there is nothing wrong with giving or selling a firearm from your collection to someone. You just have to log it in. I'm giving my brother one of my Mosin carbines of which I have multiples and didn't want this extra one that is in lesser condition than the rest. I'm giving it as a gift because he would like to have a short rifle to hunt with in the woods in the Carolinas. There is nothing wrong with what I'm doing, I didn't buy one just to get it into someone elses hands, but I am going to give it to him. It's been in my collection for a while. There is a lot of grey area here with the ATF. For example, how many weapons can you sell out of your collection in a 12 month period that were bought with a C&R and not be considered a dealer? 20? One? Three? How much money can you make off a C&R and not be considered profiting from it, when you sell a C&R? I think if you do everything you can to stay within the law and just act sensibly, you will be fine.

So, do not buy just to re-sell it or give it to someone. But if you have a C&R firearm sitting around that you want to remove from your collection because your collecting interests have changed for some reason, it is perfectly legal to sell or give it away.

TimRB
March 21, 2004, 11:29 AM
Legalities notwithstanding, is there any reason the friend can't get his own C&R? It probably would pay for itself with this one purchase. Personally, I'm starting week 7 of THE WAIT. Every time I go to the mailbox I feel like a nine-year-old looking for his Captain Commando secret decoder ring.

Tim

rust collector
March 21, 2004, 12:05 PM
Heh. Tim, you just gave the best reason why the friend will probably not benefit from the C&R--the wait. I'm waiting too, probably week 4, but in the meantime I've picked up a K-31 at my local gun shop. A hundred bucks is still a deal for a mighty nice rifle born a year after I was.

Short answer to short question seems to be that no, it's not legal to order a gun for someone else but yes, it is legal to sell or trade in the course of upgrading or downsizing your collection. A thirty or forty dollar price differential probably isn't worth taking the chance, and the opportunity to check the gun out before buying is certainly worth something to me.

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