223 load experimentation


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tyeo098
July 22, 2013, 01:04 PM
So those familiar with my 'Name that powder!' thread will know that I recently came into a bunch of factory reject AMERC 30 carbine loads. Well those re-issues serves me so well through my little blue I went and bought some reject 223 cases as well.

Here is the pull data from 30 of those rounds: http://tyleryeomans.com/223kimball.html

This powder is unknown, but from VLD and average charge weight it seems to be right around the BL-C(2)/846 surplus range.

So I worked up a reduced load of 25.3gr of the powder, using the Mexican match theory.

Here are the not-too-shabby-for-100$-for-1000-rds-223 results: http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s249/tyeo098/20130721_210958_zps653bd244.jpg

Target was at 25yrds (since the longer range was closed :cuss:) and my rifle it sighted in for 100yrds.

Anyways, my problem. Do these primers look flattened, or in any way show signs of excessive pressure?
http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130721_222117_zpsa1de5eda.jpg.html
http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130721_223150_zps58f485c4.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

Thanks all!

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cfullgraf
July 22, 2013, 01:29 PM
Generally, powders used in 30 Carbine is in the W296/H110, Alliant 2400, or IMR4227 burn rate range.

Much too fast for full power 223 Remington loads.

In the pictures I see a pierced primer and primer cup flowing around the firing pin. Not good pressure signs.

tyeo098
July 22, 2013, 01:34 PM
Generally, powders used in 30 Carbine is in the W296/H110, Alliant 2400, or IMR4227 burn rate range.

Much too fast for full power 223 Remington loads.

In the pictures I see a pierced primer and primer cup flowing around the firing pin. Not good pressure signs.
Oh, the 30 carbine were separate loads, from a separate thread I was referencing.
This powder was pulled from 223 cases.

Can you identify which case has the pierced primer? I don't remember seeing one last night when I took the pictures. It may be a shadow.

cfullgraf
July 22, 2013, 01:40 PM
Second picture top row and second row, second cases from the left look like pierced primers.

he bottom row of primers, the firing pin dimple looks shallow indicating the pressure has pushed the primer cup back. Some of the primers, the cup has extruded around the firing pin. Not necessarily a sign of over pressure as the hole in the bolt could be oversized but not all the primers show this trait.

Since the powder is pulled from 223 Remington cartridges, then it is not as dangerous as I first thought.

tyeo098
July 22, 2013, 01:43 PM
The primers were pulled from Amerc cases as well, and kind of went in really easily when I primed the good cases. Would loose fitting primers cause the issues seem in the pictures?

tyeo098
July 24, 2013, 01:15 PM
Oh, also I was getting a lot of short stroking.

Does that mean anything? Underpressure?

Kernel
July 24, 2013, 01:44 PM
Underpressure and/or improper pressure wave-form.

W.E.G.
July 24, 2013, 02:05 PM
What kind of primer are you using?

Some sort of RE-CYCLED primer that you punched out of known junk ammo???

NEVER do that!

tyeo098
July 24, 2013, 02:17 PM
What kind of primer are you using?

Some sort of RE-CYCLED primer that you punched out of known junk ammo???

NEVER do that!
I'm unsure of what you mean by this.
The ammo wasnt corroded or junk, all the cases simply had a split neck when they were loaded. How would that have affected the primer?

moxie
July 24, 2013, 02:51 PM
I also see some flowing around the firing pin.

I know you said they were all fired from the same gun but some of the firing pin hits are so different it gives the appearance of several different guns.

BTW, many of us would never use AMERC brass. Period.

tyeo098
July 24, 2013, 10:39 PM
I may be running my loads too light...

23.1gr of BL-C2-alike 846 should not flatten out primers??

That was a starting load. I'll try laddering it up to 26.3gr to see what I get.

gamestalker
July 25, 2013, 01:29 AM
In my opinion and experience, a lot of those primers show signs of excessively low pressures, backed out primers and flowing back into the firing pin hole. I also see some that look as though excessive pressures were at play. Either way, I don't see much consistency here. Were they all loaded with the same powder specs? Or did you run varied charges with them?

GS

tyeo098
July 25, 2013, 09:40 AM
All were the same load.

The primers were fit very loose to the pocket (small primers), would that have anything to do with it?

BullfrogKen
July 26, 2013, 12:41 AM
I have no idea why you're doing what you're doing. Are you seriously punching out unknown primers from some rejected brass and re-using them in other cases?


The only advice I'll offer is stop what you are doing before you hurt yourself or someone else around you at that public range you're using to shoot them.


You just started handloading like a year ago, right?

Follow established reloading data, using known components you don't have to guess at what they are.

tyeo098
July 26, 2013, 01:04 AM
Ken,

Essentially what I have is 1000 rds of perfectly good factory ammo that just has a defective brass case.

What I'm doing is transplanting everything, the powder, primer, and projectile, into another perfectly fine brass case.

The only issue I am encountering is that I had averaged all of the powder weights and used that as the basis for my load. My first load was a tad below the average(25.5gr), for safety's sake, at 25.3gr. This is when I noticed the flattened primers and consulted the forum.

After noting the flattening of the primers under my 25.3gr load,I reduced the load to 23.1gr, but the primers still looked flattened. I also had a 90% short stroke rate. Recently I had remembered that the primers slid into the new cases with little resistance, and was wondering if the primer backing out during firing would cause the flattening of the primers.

Again, the only reason I'm reducing the charge was because of the issues with the flattened primers.

BullfrogKen
July 26, 2013, 01:29 AM
Yeah, Amerc.

Junk.

You really have no idea why they're rejected. You think you do. Maybe even someone told you that's why they've been rejected. You still don't know for sure.

Besides, it's Amerc. It's total junk.


You've consulted the forum a lot to do these quirky experiments with unknown components. Every time you're reminded to stop with the mad scientist experiments, and learn good reloading habits. Hell you really have no clue what they're doing. You're conducting these experiments without a chronograph.


Young man, there is no polite way to say this, but your reloading habits are deplorable. They're unsafe and dangerous to you and everyone around you when you shoot it.


Every once in a while I come across instances like this and almost wish the hobby was a bit more regulated. I cringe to think I might be at the range one day next to someone who thought he knew it all and had just enough knowledge of how to work a press to be dangerous.

Regardless, I imagine this is why I have life and AD&D insurance. My family can lodge a civil suit for desert.

blarby
July 26, 2013, 01:36 AM
AMERC rejects cases ?

BullfrogKen
July 26, 2013, 01:41 AM
No, AMERC reject rounds.


You know the stuff is junk when AMERC rejects a round. Those cheap bastards would do the same thing he's doing if there were anything worth salvaging.


AMERC ammunition is complete garbage. Nothing about it is worth redeeming.

blarby
July 26, 2013, 01:42 AM
The ammo wasnt corroded or junk, all the cases simply had a split neck when they were loaded.

And that might explain your crazy variance in pressure signs on the primers.

Because you are getting wildly inconsistent- and occasionally dangerous, pressures.


You sir, are dancin with fire.



They sell those as bulk rejects because even AMERC won't put them in a box and put them on the shelf.

I'm gonna say that again, because it sounds vaguely important.

They sell those as bulk rejects because even AMERC won't put them in a box and put them on the shelf.

That should tell you something.

Pull them all down.

Save the powder and bullet .

If you want to do the mexican match on the powder in fresh cases- do that.

At least you get a bullet, and some brass you can recycle.

I agree with Ken- you are sERIOUSLY cruisin for a bruisin.

Essentially what I have is 1000 rds of perfectly good factory ammo that just has a defective brass case.

Ok, now I'm all kinds of confused.:scrutiny:

I read this again, and again, and again........

So lemme get this straight , correct me if i'm wrong :

You are using :

An unknown powder

An unknown, previously seated primer

An unknown bullet

And damaged cases ?

BullfrogKen
July 26, 2013, 02:02 AM
As cheap and unscrupulous as AMERC is I would not be one bit surprised if they used small pistol primers to make that rejected .223 ammo. Small rifle primers are still quite scarce, and I wouldn't put it past them to do that at all.

tyeo098
July 26, 2013, 09:51 AM
Pull them all down.

Save the powder and bullet .

If you want to do the mexican match on the powder in fresh cases- do that.

At least you get a bullet, and some brass you can recycle.

This is EXACTLY what I'm doing!

I'll try explaining this again:
For 100$ I acquired 1000 factory reject Amerc rounds of 223 Remington.
Amerc went out of business recently. (And rightly so)
These rounds were hand inspected for physical blemishes. (So the liquidator says)
After I received them, I hand sorted them myself based on the type of blemish.
Around 60% the bullet was seated too far into the case, sometimes so much that you could shake the case and hear it rattle around inside.
The other 40% the cases had split necks: http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130726_081738_zps3deabd26.jpg.html

Since the cases have split necks, they are unusable. I am taking all of the components out of the case this includes:
1 55gr FMJ-BT projectile
25gr-27gr of powder
1 primer of unk mfg and type

The case, which is unusable, goes STRAIGHT to my brass recycle bin, and will be exchanged for lead next time I head to the scrap yard.

After pulling 200 or so cases, and measuring each powder charge from the cases, I have determined the average to be around 25.49gr of mystery powder.

So what I did was I took my GOOD brass (LC, PMC, etc) and popped in the primer from the bad case, 25.3 gr of powder (as close as my auto-disk could get) and seated the 55gr projectile from the bad case on top of the good case to the exact length it was in the bad round.

This brings us to here (as I stated before):
After noting the flattening of the primers under my 25.3gr load,I reduced the load to 23.1gr, but the primers still looked flattened. I also had a 90% short stroke rate. Recently I had remembered that the primers slid into the new cases with little resistance, and was wondering if the primer backing out during firing would cause the flattening of the primers.

As cheap and unscrupulous as AMERC is I would not be one bit surprised if they used small pistol primers to make that rejected .223 ammo. Small rifle primers are still quite scarce, and I wouldn't put it past them to do that at all.
This is VERY helpful. Thank you. It never occurred to me that pistol primers would flatten at rifle pressures. (Mainly because I've never used pistol primers in rifle rounds)
I do have plenty of Winchester SRP myself, I can swap them out with the mystery primers and see if I still get flattening.

blarby
July 26, 2013, 11:54 AM
Ok, I'm following a little bit better with coffee.

What I don't understand , amongst many things, is the wild primer signs.

Could you try 10-20 with the same type of known primer, exact same powder charge, and exact same headstamp case ?

tyeo098
July 26, 2013, 12:41 PM
What I don't understand , amongst many things, is the wild primer signs.
Me neither, hence the reason for the thread.

Could you try 10-20 with the same type of known primer, exact same powder charge, and exact same headstamp case ?
That I can do.

moxie
July 26, 2013, 12:52 PM
It's risky to use "mystery" powder. You have no idea where that average weight will land you. And no chrono!

Reusing primers is a big mistake.

It's also a mistake to gauge a round's pressure by looking at the primers in this case. You need a lot of data where loads are incrementally built up and observed at each level before changes become meaningful. There is no direct correlation between charge weight and flattening of primers.

The only safe salvageable items from this fiasco are maybe the bullets, but I'd have to see them to pass final judgment.

tyeo098
July 26, 2013, 12:56 PM
Can someone explain why reusing primers is a bad idea?
I've popped primers our of many test/dummy/reject rounds before and have never had any issues.

moxie
July 26, 2013, 01:37 PM
Removal often disturbs the anvil resulting in decreased reliability. They sometimes also fit too loose when reused. Identity can also be a problem. You don't know what kind of primers you have there, do you.

Why live primers in dummy rounds?

tyeo098
July 31, 2013, 11:19 AM
Off to the range today with an assortment of rounds.
I have:
5 cases FC with pulled Amerc primer
5 cases FC with Wincester SRP
5 cases LC-12 with Amerc primer
5 cases LC-12 Win SRP
5 cases PMC with Amerc primer
5 cases PMC with Win SRP

This should tell me whats up.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s249/tyeo098/20130730_234349_zps2cad0d5a.jpg (http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130730_234349_zps2cad0d5a.jpg.html)

tyeo098
August 2, 2013, 12:15 AM
The results are in!

Heres the primers, pulled on the left, Winchester SRP on the right.

FC: http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130802_001148_zps6e641794.jpg.html
LC12: http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130802_001133_zps50df5a1b.jpg.html
PMC: http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130802_001110_zpsba3eee1c.jpg.html

788Ham
August 2, 2013, 01:53 PM
If you think you've saved enough monies, to scrimp on the junked cases/rounds, and are saving the bullets and powder to reload into other brass, fine. BUT, junk the old primers too, throw them away, buy new primers ! When you've blown your fingers, or hand all to hell, you'll have a lot of recuperation to time to stare at that mangled hand and look back at this thread wondering, "Why didn't I listen to those guys!" Maybe you've got all of the answers in your mind, if so, why ask us then?

tyeo098
August 2, 2013, 02:02 PM
If you think you've saved enough monies, to scrimp on the junked cases/rounds, and are saving the bullets and powder to reload into other brass, fine.
Tell me where to fine 1000 rounds of 223 for 100 bucks, then we can discuss 'saving' money.

BUT, junk the old primers too, throw them away, buy new primers ! When you've blown your fingers, or hand all to hell, you'll have a lot of recuperation to time to stare at that mangled hand and look back at this thread wondering, "Why didn't I listen to those guys!" Maybe you've got all of the answers in your mind, if so, why ask us then?

No one has yet to convince me that popping primers out will cause me to lose my hand. The only convincing argument anyone has made was Moxie in stating there may be decreased reliability. (Which I have not experienced)

Heck, there are even threads here on THR which say there is no harm in reusing primers! :
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-385127.html
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-675571.html

tyeo098
August 2, 2013, 11:18 PM
Last night I worked up a load range from 23.5gr to 25.5gr in .5gr increments, shot them today at the range.

Also last night I went over my rifle with a fine toothed comb, and found enough carbon buildup to have the DI's at boot camp giving me enough pushups to have me set for the rest of my life.

So I cleaned that, and lubed it according to the lube guide on ARFCOM

Second thing I did was switch from my off-brand 10rd mag to my one (and only) PMAG.

All rounds I had loaded cycled without issue, I even had some accuracy!
A few short stroks did show up again with a few AMERC 'factory' rounds I have stashed away.
I was out of reloads so I could not see if it was carbon build-up or just the rounds being garbage.

Felt like an idiot when I showed up at the range, I had left my targets on my printer at the office!
I rummaged though the trash bin and found some partially unused sections of paper targets, drew my own 1"ish circle, and went to town.

All rounds shot at 50yds. (indoor range)

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s249/tyeo098/20130802_231152_zps6f38592e.jpg

and I'm still here ;)

hpluseleven
August 3, 2013, 05:31 AM
Those two threads you reference about reusing primers are both talking about straight up reloads with (presumably) known components. Not breaking down factory ammo. As has been stated previously, there is no way to know why that ammo got rejected at the factory.


I'm not going to convince you that you're going to blow your hand/fingers off and frankly I don't care. Personally, I wouldn't be taking the risks that you are.

Kernel
August 3, 2013, 01:30 PM
I don’t see anything particularly alarming, unique, or unsafe in what you’re doing. As mentioned, you’re essentially making “Mexican match” ammo, a common accepted practice popular with high volume competition shooters for at least the last 50 years.

Could be your flat primers are a result of a wet chamber. Degrease with some proper solvent. Make sure your ammo isn’t to oily. It can be wiped down with a solvent dampened rag as well.

tyeo098
August 5, 2013, 10:18 AM
I don’t see anything particularly alarming, unique, or unsafe in what you’re doing. As mentioned, you’re essentially making “Mexican match” ammo, a common accepted practice popular with high volume competition shooters for at least the last 50 years.
That's what I've been saying this entire thread lol. Thank you for understanding :)

Could be your flat primers are a result of a wet chamber. Degrease with some proper solvent. Make sure your ammo isn’t to oily. It can be wiped down with a solvent dampened rag as well.
Noted, but in my previous post I had shot the same loads side by side in WIN SRP and they did not get anywhere near as flat as the AMERC primers.

moxie
August 5, 2013, 11:38 AM
Again, several of us advised you to avoid AMERC ammo and components entirely.

BullfrogKen
August 5, 2013, 05:34 PM
And in our previous posts we had said how AMERC ammo is complete garbage. The fact that piece of .... work .... company rejected them should have been a clue.


Garbage in, garbage out.


Hey, it's not like I haven't dropped $100.00 on a mistake before. I've dropped much more than that, too.

It's a sunk cost. Stop trying to polish a turd, drop off the spent brass at a recycler, and move on. There is no good reason to fart around with crap like AMERC, anything AMERC, as a handloader.

Again, I would not put it past them to load .223 with a small pistol primer.


But hey, go forth my young friend and do whatever you want. No matter how many others caution you against it, keep searching for someone to tell you what you're doing has merit. You'll find someone.

tyeo098
August 5, 2013, 05:54 PM
And in our previous posts we had said how AMERC ammo is complete garbage.
And thats all I've heard. Heresay. No one in this entire thread has presented ANY factual data why the ammo would be bad/dangerous/etc.

Just the constant repetition of 'Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap'

With NO data to back up any statements.
The fact that piece of .... work .... company rejected them should have been a clue.
Garbage in, garbage out.

They were visually inspected (and rejected) BY the guy I bought them from. I know exactly why they were rejected, and this was purely because of the case neck being cracked.

But, as I've stated MANY times in this thread (which no one seems to read this part)

I'm not using the Amerc Brass!


Again, I would not put it past them to load .223 with a small pistol primer.

A small PP would not have withstood the pressures being created by the 223 rem round and would easily have pierced/ruptured/backed out completely.

SP primers have a thinner cup because pistols don't hit the primers as hard, operate at lower pressure and usually have less firing pin protrusion.

It's a sunk cost. Stop trying to polish a turd, drop off the spent brass at a recycler, and move on. There is no good reason to fart around with crap like AMERC, anything AMERC, as a handloader.

Statements like these make me think you are not even understanding what I am trying to accomplish.

No matter how many others caution you against it, keep searching for someone to tell you what you're doing has merit. You'll find someone.

You mean like Kernel?
I don’t see anything particularly alarming, unique, or unsafe in what you’re doing.

moxie
August 5, 2013, 07:33 PM
I have personal experience with AMERC.

Primers seated incorrectly. Flash holes off center. Varying brass thickness around the case mouth. Case mouth not "square." Irregular rims, etc.

This translates to "AMERC is crap." Most folks have been savvy to this for a long time. I think you even had some short strokes with AMERC components. That's factual.

tyeo098
August 5, 2013, 07:35 PM
I have personal experience with AMERC.

Primers seated incorrectly. Flash holes off center. Varying brass thickness around the case mouth. Case mouth not "square." Irregular rims, etc.

This translates to "AMERC is crap." Most folks have been savvy to this for a long time. I think you even had some short strokes with AMERC components. That's factual.
I've seen many primers seated upside down, they pop out like all the others.

And again,

Please read this part:
They were visually inspected (and rejected) BY the guy I bought them from. I know exactly why they were rejected, and this was purely because of the case neck being cracked.

But, as I've stated MANY times in this thread (which no one seems to read this part)

I'm not using the Amerc Brass!

I had it in bold, maybe it needs to be bigger:

I'm not using the Amerc Brass

Mods, please tell me if I'm getting out of line. I generally dislike repeating/quoting myself once, much less multiple times.

moxie
August 5, 2013, 08:36 PM
But you are using the primers and powder from the AMERC rounds, the rejects. My point in describing the brass defects is to show the lack of quality of AMERC products in general. In #31 above you yourself pointed out short stroking with AMERC factory rounds. What more factual data does one need to conclude that AMERC is shoddy stuff? But press on. You asked for advice and reject it. Cool. Press on.

tyeo098
August 5, 2013, 08:45 PM
But you are using the primers and powder from the AMERC rounds, the rejects. My point in describing the brass defects is to show the lack of quality of AMERC products in general.
This is why I am reweighing and rethrowing the charges.
The primers I'll give you, but 100% of them have gone bang.

In #31 above you yourself pointed out short stroking with AMERC factory rounds. What more factual data does one need to conclude that AMERC is shoddy stuff?

I also describe how it could have been carbon buildup, and noted in a previous post that my rifle was short stroking on EVERY round.

The rifle I am using is also the only rifle I use my 22 conversion kit in. 22LR is not clean stuff, and I believe that it may have gunked up my gas tube to the point where weak rounds (like some of the undercharged AMERC stuff) would not cycle the gun correctly.

BullfrogKen
August 6, 2013, 07:41 AM
AMERC ammo is crap and even the simplest of Internet searches would have netted you pages of warnings about just how crappy that crap is. People with far more experience than you have attempted to wave you off from your flight path. You made a decision to listen only to the advice you want to hear and bicker with everyone else.

There are times in my life when I've seen friends reject sound advice to go down paths I refuse to follow.



So i guess I'll play along.



Go do whatever you want. I'm sure it will work out fine.

tyeo098
August 6, 2013, 09:46 AM
AMERC ammo is crap and even the simplest of Internet searches would have netted you pages of warnings about just how crappy that crap is.

This is true, but it is of their factory loads shot as is

People are complaining of squibs, double loads, undercharges, etc, all of which is mooted when I am pulling them for components.

I'm not asking anyone to follow me, I opened this thread with a simple question: "Do these primers look flat to you?"

BullfrogKen
August 6, 2013, 01:23 PM
You had more than flattened primers there.

You had pierced primers.


But hey, that doesn't really matter. You know what you're doing anyway, right? Who needs a chronograph. Who really needs to know what powder that is. Or what kind of primers those are.



Good job. Keep it up. Go you.

Kernel
August 6, 2013, 01:43 PM
You could of bought pulled bullets off of Gun Broker and no one would of batted an eye. Plinker fodder, no one expects match accuracy.

You could of bought surplus powder of unknown origin and everyone would of thought, “Smart move. Saved a buck, and it’s hard to find any powder in these tough times.” Start low and work up.

You could of bought generic no-name primers off the internet and people would of thought, “Primers! Man I wish I could get my hands on some primers. They’re rarer than hen’s teeth.” Even if one in a hundred don’t go “bang” they're better than nothing.

Instead you bought a bunch of reject ammo, pulled all the components, discarded the bad and keep what looked to be functional. Other than the money your saved, what’s the difference?

v8stang289
August 6, 2013, 08:37 PM
My question is, How can you be sure the powder in the rounds is from the same lot, and has the same consistency?

If you're just transferring bullet, powder, and primer from one case to the next then you'll probably be fine. But if you pull the bullets, dump all the powder together, and then redistribute it you could be asking for trouble. If the powder is for some reason not uniform you could have one round with excess pressure and another with too little pressure, even though they have the same amount of powder.

That would be my biggest concern with what you are doing.

tyeo098
August 7, 2013, 09:22 AM
My question is, How can you be sure the powder in the rounds is from the same lot, and has the same consistency?

I can't.

But if you pull the bullets, dump all the powder together, and then redistribute it you could be asking for trouble. If the powder is for some reason not uniform you could have one round with excess pressure and another with too little pressure, even though they have the same amount of powder.

That is the reason for dumping the powder, to create a uniform powder by mixing them all together. This way all the rounds perform exactly the same.

Lot to lot variations would not be enough to cause a KB, especially when I'm running average nowhere-near-max loads.

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