Controversial Blackpowder Paper Cartridges


PDA






celem
July 22, 2013, 11:52 PM
Tonight I was watching TV and making some paper cartridges for my 1858 Remington 44. I thought that I had enough Zig-Zag rolling papers to finish my goal but I ran out. Knowing that I would need to purchase some more and feeling that rolling papers are, in my opinion, rather expensive, I again pondered a paper source that will be considered controversial by some people, maybe even offensive

The town where I live in North Carolina had, for many years, a successful paper mill named the Ecusta Paper Company (http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/ref/collection/nc_post/id/1989). Harry Straus founded the plant in 1939 as America’s first cigarette paper plant. Previously, this special, thin, light yet strong paper had been made only in France. In fact, when the plant was started Straus brought over French technicians to train his American workers.

What many people don't know is that this paper was not just used for cigarettes but is also used as Bible paper – the same paper! Bibles also need thin, light yet strong paper.

OK, now the Controversy. My wife attends a lot of Flea Markets and often there will be inexpensively for sale and old Bible with a worn out cover but with pages intact and in good condition. It has occurred to me to buy one of these tattered old Bibles and cut out the paper to make cartridges. I haven't done so because, well, it just feels wrong, even though the old Bible will probably end up being thrown into the trash if not sold by the end of the day. I know that a church can be de-sanctified and end up as a restaurant, etc. so there must be a similar process for the old Bible so as to not offend anyone?

What do you think?

If you enjoyed reading about "Controversial Blackpowder Paper Cartridges" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Willie Sutton
July 23, 2013, 12:08 AM
I'd mutter "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" and go shooting.

Try a hymnal instead... :evil:


Willie

.

jstein650
July 23, 2013, 12:20 AM
Oh Man! As soon as I started reading this post, my mind said "Bible pages"! I found out the very same thing in my youth. The little Bibles we got in school had a good number of blank pages in front and back. (I was sure I'd go straight to hell if I used printed pages) I'm afraid I was looking for a rolling paper substitute at the time, and for tobacco, I'm not kidding. Yes, it they were thin, and very tough.
P.S. - I tend to think a page going up in smoke out the end of a barrel is a far better fate than ending up in the garbage. Maybe say a little prayer first... Now if it's a Koran, you'll surely be skinned alive and then be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

shunka
July 23, 2013, 12:24 AM
Since it is also used in the below mentioned volumes, ie encyclopedias, hymnals, dictionaries, etc I suggest you go that route and avoid any "issues" such as those encvountered by the Pirate Council:
http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/grol/steven/island29.htm
------
"The black spot! I thought so," he observed. "Where might you have got the paper? Why, hillo! Look here, now; this ain't lucky! You've gone and cut this out of a Bible. What fool's cut a Bible?"
------

Or you can buy it new from here
http://www.futurepkg.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1074

Or you can use what the rest of us use - hair curler paper (even cheaper than cig paper), or newsprint or phonebook paper soaked in a supersaturated solution of saltpeter.
-------------------------------------
Definition:

A thin, lightweight, opaque printing paper with a basic size of 25" x 38", bible paper is generally made from 25% cotton and linen rags or flax in combination with chemical wood pulp. It is a premium grade of book paper which typically has a long life.

The name of bible paper comes from it being the type of paper commonly used for Bibles.

Choosing Paper Grades Based on the Project

Pronunciation: [BAHY-buhl PEY-per]
Also Known As: india paper | india bible paper | premium book paper
Examples:
Typical uses for bible paper, in addition to Bibles:

prayer books
hymnals
dictionaries
encyclopedias
insurance rate books
deluxe guides
multi-fold package insert
===============================
yhs
shunka

swathdiver
July 23, 2013, 01:48 AM
Your good as long as it's not a King James Bible! Try wax paper too, you'll be in for a surprise.

bigfatdave
July 23, 2013, 02:09 AM
It's just a book, the principles and philosophy within are what matters, not the pile of ink and dead tree.

I always thought paper cartridges used something akin to Magician's flash paper, but then I'm not a BP shooter. Would the paper used for high-density books be particularly suitable?

celem
July 23, 2013, 08:46 AM
Thanks for the input. While I am not a particularly religious person, I live in the Bible belt of the the South and the person in the range lane to my left or right just might be a zealot - consequentially, my concern.

shunka - would I acquire Dick's perceived curse or dismiss it as Long John Silver did? The new, blank Bible paper is certainly cheaper than rolling paper yet once it has been printed upon it is cheaper still. A couple of bucks will buy hundreds of the printed stuff.

Regarding the comments about using encyclopedias, hymnals, dictionaries, etc., I know for a fact that our Ecusta Paper Mill made only one type of paper and that it was sold for use in cigarettes and Bibles. It is a special paper, being very thin yet strong and containing hemp, flax, and/or cotton in addition to wood pulp. Encyclopedias, hymnals and dictionaries, while having thinner paper than a normal book, do not seem, in my opinion, to have the same high quality paper as cigarettes and Bibles. They typically are quite thin, however, and may be useful for paper cartridges. I suspect that they are usually all wood pulp and lack the fiber content.

I haven't tried hair curler paper. What is a cheap source?

the Black Spot
July 23, 2013, 09:23 AM
Me personally, i would use only the concordance or front pages. Pages containing scripture would definitely be a no no! I believe u would be playing with fire using pages with scripture on them.

SleazyRider
July 23, 2013, 09:36 AM
If it's any consolation to you, Thomas Jefferson hisself mutilated several bibles by cutting out passages he felt relevant to his new and improved "Jefferson Bible." He very carefully pasted them into a volume he entitled "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth," which was void of any references to the miraculous or supernatural. Many years after his death, copies were distributed to all U.S. Congressmen, presumably to assist them in making moral decisions. (We know how well that worked!)

So if TJ can deface a bible, well, so can you!

(By the way, the original Jefferson Bible has been restored by the Smithsonian, and is touring the country on display. Copies are available here: http://www.amazon.com/Jefferson-Bible-Smithsonian-Morals-Nazareth/dp/158834312X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374586491&sr=1-1&keywords=jefferson+bible+smithsonian )

celem
July 23, 2013, 09:40 AM
OK, I did some Googling. to check out hair curler paper and Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_7?rh=n%3A11057241%2Ck%3Aend+wrap+paper&keywords=end+wrap+paper&ie=UTF8&qid=1374585536&rnid=2941120011) seems to be a good source. There are many different sizes. For making paper cartridges for my 1858 44 Pietta Remington I prefer a standard rolling paper over a 3/8" mandrel to hold 23 grains of TripleSeven. That load of T7 is about equal to about 30 grains of black powder. I like the smaller diameter because it easily drops into the cylinder and will burst open when compressed under the ball. I load only the powder and still insert wad and ball separately. This just saves time at the range since I don't have to measure the powder charge. A standard size rolling paper is perfect for this, creating a single thickness that bursts easily when compressed and having less mass to burn or shred than would the larger rolling papers. So, my preferred paper size is Zig-Zag's 70x37mm. The 37mm with a gummed edge is perfect but the 70mm length is actually longer than necessary, creating some waste. The various rolling papers are sized different by manufacturer. A measurement source is THIS-LINK (http://www.rollingpaperwarehouse.com/24-Count-Box_c_100.html).

Anyway, the hair curler paper, which seems to mostly be called "end wrap" paper or "perm" paper, is quite a bit bigger than cigarette rolling paper. I am seeing a typical size of 2.25x3.25 inches. If I cut the paper in half along the 3.25" side the resultant paper would be 41.25x57.15mm - 4mm more overlap than desired, but not too bad.

What size do you folks use? What do you use for an adhesive?

rodwha
July 23, 2013, 10:00 AM
I use a standard size American Spirits rolling paper that I cut in half and attach to my bullet. These are .45 cal, and I can get as much as 35 grns of 3F Triple 7/Olde Eynsford in it.

I've also heard that curling papers work great with a glue stick.

I'm against using a Bible in such a fashion. Maybe that Bible would fall into the hands of someone who really needs/wants it.

kituwa
July 23, 2013, 10:39 AM
I was messing around rolling some last night and tried a Lipton tea bag. It is much stronger than a tops rolling paper and i tried lighting just some of the tea bag paper and it burns way way faster and more complete than the tops. The ones i made last night i put a lee .450-200 conical in and used a Elmer's glue stick. Also i clipped the end and folded rather than use a twist.

Chawbaccer
July 23, 2013, 04:09 PM
My wife picked up a few sewing patterns over the weekend at yard sales, they are a pretty thin paper, or just go to Amazon and order a roll of sewing pattern paper and nitrate it.

celem
July 23, 2013, 07:31 PM
Today I had errands to run in the next town over and there was a Sally's Beauty Supply store (no similar stores in my little town) so I purchased some of their curling paper (called End Paper). It is larger than I would like at 2.5"x3.25" so I'll have to trim it down but at $2.19 for 1,000 sheets it is economical. When I got home I pulled out a sheet. It is somewhat translucent and looks quite thin. I wet a sheet and it is also strong when wet. I then became suspicious that it was some sort of synthetic material so I burned a sheet. It burns faster than cigarette paper and smells like ordinary paper, i.e., no plastic smell. So far it looks promising.

Snaggletooth
July 23, 2013, 09:35 PM
Go in a beauty shop. It is almost obsolete type of paper since home perms are scarce

dodo bird
July 24, 2013, 11:26 AM
Don't use the Bible! Go to your local airport. Pilots throw away a lot of old Jepesen charts every month as they are out of date. Very thin like rolling paper.

celem
July 24, 2013, 11:53 AM
The rolling papers [end papers] suggested herein look pretty good - I purchased some yesterday. I won't be using Bible pages - it was just a thought. I knew that it would be controversial and I was right. So, as far as I am concerned - put to rest Bible pages as a source of paper for revolver cartridges. I never felt right about it myself and I respect the concern of those who are even more bothered by the idea.

I do, however, like to read about what and how others are making and using paper revolver cartridges and I will continue to monitor the forum for tips and hints.

Thanks for all of the suggestions and ideas.

Arkansas Paul
July 24, 2013, 12:33 PM
P.S. - I tend to think a page going up in smoke out the end of a barrel is a far better fate than ending up in the garbage.

I know you've decided against it, but I agree with this statement. If it's going to be destroyed anyway, what difference does it make?
And, by using it to make cartridges, you're actually prolonging them being totally destroyed, so you're doing a good thing. :)

rodwha
July 24, 2013, 12:37 PM
Having made some paper cartridges myself, and been given advice, I'm curious how you go about making yours.

I've had a few fellows make patterns to cut the papers into specific shape to make a tapered cartridge.

Mine are closer to straight walled, but I see no real reason to go to those lengths as I've had good ignition as is.

I am curious about nitrating the papers so that they burn completely. Mostly so that there's less concern over embers left behind, especially if/when I try to make them for my rifle.

shafter
July 24, 2013, 03:06 PM
For a day of casual shooting at the range - no. Too many people in other parts of the world would do anything for even one page. However here is an interesting historical sidenote some of you black powder enthusiasts may enjoy.

http://www.aproundtable.org/tps2.cfm?ID=944&issuecode=history

They might not have been actual Bibles but most hymns contain a lot of scripture.

45 Dragoon
July 24, 2013, 04:38 PM
celem, sounds like you're considering becoming a "holy roller"!!



45 Dragoon

celem
July 24, 2013, 04:40 PM
Rodwha - re "how you make your cartridges"

I guess, technically, I don't make cartridges since I don't include the ball - I make powder bags, technically speaking.

For making paper cartridges for my 1858 44 Pietta Remington I prefer a standard rolling paper over a 3/8" dowel mandrel to hold 23 grains of TripleSeven. The end of the 3/8 mandrel is concave. That load of T7 is about equal to about 30 grains of black powder. I like the smaller diameter because it easily drops into the cylinder and will burst open when compressed under the ball. I load only the powder and still insert wad and ball separately. This just saves time at the range since I don't have to measure the powder charge.

The 23 grains of TripleSeven makes a short enough package that the ball easily sits on top of the chamber and is slender enough for easy loading and splitting open when the ball is seated seated.

My Pietta's chambers measure .448 and a 7/16" dowel won't fit into a chamber and requires a LOT of sanding to get it small enough to make a mandrel that creates a paper cartridge that will slide in. My experience is that modest defects in my forming the cartridge results in a good number that won't fit. Since the 3/8" mandrel works well for me, I stick with that for the reasons stated above.

Previously, I have been using standard cigarette rolling paper (not 1.25, 1.5 or king) with a gummed edge. Now that I am switching to hair curler end papers, which have no gummed edge, I guess that I'll use a glue stick - unless someone has a better suggestion. I use no glue to seal the powder end. I leave about 1/4 inch over the end of the mandrel and twist a little sprue. Then I use scissors to clip off the sprue, fairly close to the base. Next, I have another piece of 3/8 dowel glued into a board such that it points up and is well supported. The top end of the 3/8 dowel is rounded to be convex. Now, with the paper twisted shut and the sprue clipped short, I press the 3/8 mandrel's concave end, where the sealed base is, onto the convex end of the mounted 3/8 inch dowel. I press hard and move it around a little bit. The result is that the sealed end of the cartridge becomes quite fused and very seldom comes open with normal handling.

For the ball end, I twist a little sprue and clip off the excess, leaving about 1/8 inch sprue intact. I pick up the little powder package by the paper sprue and drop it into a 45ACP plastic ammo box hole.

Loading at the range is simple. Pull a powder packet out of the ammo box by its sprue and drop it into a cylinder chamber hole. If I am not greasing the top of the ball, I next drop in a wad. Finally, drop on a ball and ram it home. Lastly cap and fire.

That's how I do it.

rodwha
July 24, 2013, 05:04 PM
That's a very good idea!

I have tried making cartridges using RB's with 1/2 of the paper as I have with a bullet, but I've had trouble keeping the ball in. I didn't want to use the whole paper as I'd use up my supply in no time.

On another forum a fellow folds the paper over the end of his dowel and glues it shut, then uses super glue to glue the ball on to the paper.

I think I like your idea much better. Adding a ball manually isn't that tedious.

rodwha
July 24, 2013, 08:59 PM
I assume you are using a whole paper for these?

I just tried twisting the smallest little tail I could and had a hard time getting 30 grns of powder in, and moved down to 25 grns, and it's still not easy in a 1/2 a paper. Using a bullet to keep it in sure keeps it easier!

What I'm doing now is to lick my paper and glue the outside so I can move the paper off of the dowel a little and press the paper to make a flat bottom. I'm still having trouble getting 25 grns of powder in there with enough room to twist the top.

If/when I go through all of these papers I'll likely use those curling papers too. They sure are cheap!

celem
July 24, 2013, 10:46 PM
Rodwa - Re "I assume you are using a whole paper for these?"

I have been using Zig Zag Kutcorners which are 70 x 37mm. This particular paper is popular in the area and the 37mm perfectly wraps around the 3/8" dowel. Yes, I use a whole paper and there is a good bit of waste of the 70mm length. Other brands of rolling papers were not a good size. JOB papers are also common here but they measure 68 x 36mm and the loss of that millimeter makes it harder to roll around the dowel.

Anyway, the SALLY Jumbo End Wraps are looking very promising. The paper is thin and strong. They measure 63.5x101.6mm which means that they must be cut. Tonight I experimented with cutting. I grabbed a stack of 10 or so and cut them up with my old fashioned clever-type paper cutter. I lobbed one end of the long side to make it 3 inches long. Then I cut that in half, ending up with two usable pieces each 1.5x2.5 inches (38x63mm). I used a glue stick to apply a little bit along the 63mm edge and rolled the 38mm around the 3/8" dowel. It makes a nice tube of a very workable length. I made one tube the same as I did with the cigarette papers - with the twisted sprue. That worked fine. Next I decided to try a single layer on the powder and cut the end of the next tube at a 45 degree angle and then applied some glue and folded over the dowel's end. It made a very nice single layer bottom for the nipple side of the bag. This takes a little more time than just the twist bu I think that I can get a rhythm going. Thus a $2.19 box of Hair Curling End Papers will yield 2,000 paper cartridges. That sound pretty good to me - a LOT cheaper than cigarette papers.

I only made the two tubes tonight as my wife wanted to drive to town and watch the Lone Ranger movie.

Jaymo
July 28, 2013, 04:12 PM
Better the pages get used for cartridges than be thrown in the trash.
It's just a book.
The word of God is more important than the paper upon which it's printed.
It's not like you're burning it out of some sort of atheistic "I hate God" mentality.

Now, the hair curling end papers make a lot of sense to me.
I don't have any scrap Bibles available. We read ours.
Plus, they're cheaper than Zig-Zags.

SleazyRider
July 28, 2013, 04:41 PM
Better the pages get used for cartridges than be thrown in the trash.
It's just a book.
The word of God is more important than the paper upon which it's printed.
It's not like you're burning it out of some sort of atheistic "I hate God" mentality.

Now, the hair curling end papers make a lot of sense to me.
I don't have any scrap Bibles available. We read ours.
Plus, they're cheaper than Zig-Zags.
Great post, Jaymo, that says it all!

Deltaboy
July 30, 2013, 09:49 PM
Get the Bibles and take them to your local Jail. They need it.

celem
October 22, 2013, 09:30 PM
dodo bird mailed me some Pilot's Jepesen charts to try as paper cartridges. The paper felt significantly thicker than the hair curler paper that I use but I decided to try it in one chamber only. I loaded the other five with hair curler paper sacks. The Jepesen chart paper feels like dictionary paper and is nowhere as thin as cigarette paper of hair curler paper.

Mu paper cartridge sacks leave some residue at the rear of the chamber, which, prior to reloading, is easily pulled out with a telephone company "spudger (http://www.phonetechsupply.com/Telephone-Spudger-Wire-Pick/c7_9/p31/Monarch-PP-4443-SWY-Yellow-Probe-with-sharp-point-wire-hook/product_info.html?osCsid=73f49c5f090c98c17129fabaa8572501)", which looks a bit like a ball point pen with a wire on the end with a 90 degree bend. The one thickness Jepesen chart paper powder sack fired perfectly with the cap easily igniting the TrippleSeven within but the paper residue was more significant. Result - it is usable but not as good as hair curler paper.

I have attached a photo.

jimnbubba
October 22, 2013, 10:49 PM
Jepp Charts are almost a thing of the past

IBEWBULL
October 22, 2013, 11:00 PM
When I had my 58 I used onion skin paper. You may need to search for it. This was in 1979 and that is all I remember about it. Other than it worked fine.

rondog
October 22, 2013, 11:45 PM
For cryin' out loud, how expensive can rolling papers be? I mean, it's been a helluva long time, but I don't remember them being "expensive". I'll have to ask on my next trip to the cigar shop.

Busyhands94
October 23, 2013, 01:08 AM
When I was a young one, I cut out some of the blank pages from a Bible to use as rolling papers. Yes, I was rolling TOBACCO CIGARETTES.

Nowadays I don't stoop to that level of desperation. If you want a good deal on papers just go to Ebay and get some Natural American Spirit rolling papers. They are always on there, and you can usually get them for a good price.

For instance, here's 1800 papers, the bid is at $10.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Spirit-Rolling-Papers-/221301857715?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33869e5db3

That's a much better deal than Zig Zags if you ask me. I wouldn't want to pay $3 for 36 papers anyway.

rondog
October 23, 2013, 01:37 AM
So is this too much for Zig Zags? http://www.wholesalerollingpapers.com/Zig-Zag-Kutcorners-Slow-Burning-White-Rolling-Papers--_p_551.html

BowerR64
October 23, 2013, 02:58 AM
When i was using paper loads i found the "Bugler" brand in the light blue package to be the best and they were just over $1. for 115 GUMMED papers.

IMO thats the benifit of the rolling papers is the glue is already on it.

I only went threw one package 115 when i realized i got better shots without them. I noticed paper was hanging around inside the chambers when i got home and i didnt want any embers hanging around in the chambers after a round of shooting.

They were fun in the begining but the quick charge tubes blows the rolling papers idea away. A simmilar setup as far as preloading and it makes loading faster but i dont have to worry about the paper not burning up no dud charges and they are reusable.

Col4570
October 23, 2013, 10:50 AM
Greaseproof Paper for Baking Cakes is ideal,very strong and comes in big rolls that will last.An alternative to the Bible could be the Koran.

celem
October 24, 2013, 06:58 AM
Please go back and read post 22. You will see that I am successfully using hair rolling papers. My most recent post was simply an update on the pilot's paper. I certainly didn't intend to unleash another firestorm. For the record, I am NOT using bible pages.

jimnbubba
October 24, 2013, 12:11 PM
I poke a hole in the paper with my nipple pick

celem
October 24, 2013, 05:25 PM
I poke a hole in the paper with my nipple pick

Okay one final comment. using the single layer foldover method that I use, no prick of the paper is necessary. The percussion cap ignites through the paper with 100 percent reliability.

zimmerstutzen
October 24, 2013, 08:38 PM
From chapter 29 of Treasure Island:

"The black spot! I thought so," He observed.
"Where might you have got the paper? Why, hillo! Look here, now;
this aint lucky! You've gone and cut a Bible. What fool's cut a Bible?"

"Ah, there!," said Morgan. "There! Wot did i say? No good'll come o'that, I said."

Arizona_Mike
October 25, 2013, 10:33 PM
It's the Word of God not the Paper of God! What's in your heart is what matters. I'd say praise the lord and pass the ammunition!

Mike

rdstrain49
October 25, 2013, 10:39 PM
OK, I admit I have not read the entire post in detail, just scanned it. So, if I missed I apologize in advance.

The answer seems very simple to me.

USE A KORAN

If you enjoyed reading about "Controversial Blackpowder Paper Cartridges" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!