reloading for friends question


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myFRAGisFUBAR
July 24, 2013, 08:12 PM
I have been doing some searching about reloading for close friends and it looks like making any kind of profit will cause the government to get <deleted>.:cuss: However if said friends buy all the components I am allowed to reload them and give them back with no worries as long as no cash trades hands.

Did I understand all that I read correctly or am I still missing something. Thanks again I just wanted some confirmation.

On a side note if said friend just accidently bought an extra box of bullets and didn't need them, could he pay it forward? :rolleyes:

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Muddydogs
July 24, 2013, 08:33 PM
You have components that you reload into ammo and your friends help you shoot it up, whats the problem here? They might even contribute a couple dollars to the ammo fund. I'm sure the ATF is setting right outside your door just waiting for you to give your buddy a couple boxes of bullets.

The bigger question in the whole reloading for friends is what happens if you make a mistake and there firearm or they get damaged. How good of friends are they at that point? One of my buddy's uses my stuff to load hunting rounds, I help him out but when it comes down to powder he weights each charge and loads the case, he knows the dangers and realizes that he is doing the important part of the process.

RustyFN
July 24, 2013, 09:14 PM
The bigger question in the whole reloading for friends is what happens if you make a mistake and there firearm or they get damaged. How good of friends are they at that point?

Exactly. What happens if a friend loses an eye or worse and can't work any longer. Who do you think will be supporting him and his family then. I am more than happy to teach my friends to reload and even let them use my gear but they don't get to shoot my reloads.

mljdeckard
July 24, 2013, 09:16 PM
I have a very short list of friends who participate in my reloading and share the results.

243winxb
July 24, 2013, 09:17 PM
Many reasons not to reload for friends. www.photobucket.com/kabooom

kerreckt
July 24, 2013, 09:33 PM
I don't reload for anyone but myself. I don't sell reloads. I don't give away reloads. Come shoot with me and I will supply all the ammo with no expectations for anything but a good time.That is my reloading policy.

JC98
July 24, 2013, 10:57 PM
I have let my friends use my press before. Especially since finding ammo to go shooting is about impossible. I walk them through the process and supervise as they do the labor to make sure they don't make any mistakes.

joeschmoe
July 24, 2013, 11:09 PM
You can also make your own firearms. You can't make them to sell to your friends. If you want to do these things for others get a business license. Its only a hobby for personal use. You personally.

Lost Sheep
July 24, 2013, 11:13 PM
I don't gamble with friends. If I win, I feel badly for them. If I lose, I feel badly for me.

I don't load for friends. If the unthinkable happens and ANYTHING goes wrong. Even if he just misses a target at an important time, or a moose, I would wonder, "was it me?".

Call me a pessimist if you will. I still feel badly about my chronograph my friend shot (with factory ammunition). He insisted on buying me a new one. We settled on half a new one. But he refuses to shoot over my chronograph ever again. That's how badly he feels.

My chronograph wears armor now. But he still won't shoot over it. When he wants to clock his loads, I do the shooting.

Sorry to go on so long, but I just want to stress that it goes beyond what "big brother" thinks about ammo and sharing/selling.

Would you pack your friend's parachute?

Lost Sheep

gamestalker
July 25, 2013, 01:21 AM
What I've been informed of by an expert in this area, is that the ATF is focused on individuals that are perpetrating a business without the necessary FFL permits and other pertinent licensing. So as for reloading for a friend or two, even if they give you some form of gratuity, your fine, no worries in that regard. But of course there is the liability concern, which is a completely different issue.

GS

horsemen61
July 25, 2013, 03:01 AM
Ask yourself this " could I live with myself if said friend,brother,sister,dad,mom,gf,bf,wife,husband anyone was injured in any way because of my reloads" if you can't truthfully ask yourself that then you could be an accident waiting to happen :( Now saying that I have helped a couple of friends get started In Reloading and I also have let them use my equipment they paid for components Under my eye where every charge was triple checked now some will say overkill I say none of my guns or theirs have had a koboom.

blarby
July 25, 2013, 03:32 AM
You are correct.

From the ATF standpoint, the threshold is "livelihood and profit"

Trading : OK

Doing it for them : OK

Giving : OK

Receiving $1.00 = Not OK

FWIW, I've spoken to my local ATF branch at length regarding this, as well as consulting an attorney. The "profit and livelihood" is where it gets murky, and you can twist and squirm to your belief or pleasure.... But accepting cash is the definite line in the sand.


All of those kaboom pics suck. They are obviously the result of someone not doing what they were supposed to. Bad as they were, unless I missed something, none of these failures would cause any kind of lasting injury if you were wearing required eye and ear protection.

The 338 with the crazy load of lil gun gave 5 stitches. Thats about the worst one there, and thats a very hot load. I would have never pulled the trigger on it.

I'm not at all surprised that the number of kabooms from factory ammo - nothing in this world is perfect, and they do it every day.

Walkalong
July 25, 2013, 07:28 AM
if said friend just accidently bought an extra box of bullets and didn't need them, could he pay it forward? We do not try to help people skirt the law here at THR. You can give away reloads, but you cannot sell them. If you are receiving compensation for the reloading, it could easily be conceived as breaking the law. But yes, if they supply the components, and you load them up for free, which means no compensation, it's legal.

sbrader
July 25, 2013, 08:13 AM
I am happy to work with a new reloader to help them learn the ropes. I am also happy to let them reload on my press; even with my components for a couple of close friends who are in a bit of a financial pinch right now. I'll stand beside them and talk them through step by step, but I don't load ammo for them.

Now, with that said, we all try out each other's reloads when we're at the range together so the line gets a little blurred. My conscience keeps me from specifically reloading for other people, though.

That's just my opinion, of course.

40-82
July 25, 2013, 08:36 AM
When you consider the cost of powder, primers, and bullets against the cost of factory ammo with someone else doing the labor(you.) Then suddenly you will find friends coming out of the woodwork who will allow you to reload for them.

Consider this scenario, which I read once in a magazine: two fellows at adjacent shooting benches on a public range, the reloader and the friend he reloads for. A fairly large crowd is at the range. The friend pulls the trigger on his 270 and blows it to smithereens. The friend turns to the reloader and loudly announces, "Your reloads." The reloader examines the rifle and quickly determines that it was not his reloads in the rifle, but a 308 cartridge, which will blow any 270 up.

If you reload for someone aside from saving them money, they will assume that you also take on every problem they ever have in the future with that gun. If you're willing to do that, go ahead.

X-Rap
July 25, 2013, 09:52 AM
I understand peoples concern over liability but I don't understand their lack of faith in their own work when they will buy or recommend the purchase and use of commercial reloads that are done on the same or similar equipment by commercial reloaders who might have a minimum wage worker manning the press.

myFRAGisFUBAR
July 25, 2013, 09:58 AM
Well that is all I needed to know. Time to drag the friends over for a reloading session and a cookout. Thanks for the advice and I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes.

Bovice
July 25, 2013, 02:25 PM
I've been loading for a good while and I always let others shoot my guns. The ammo in the gun is also mine, it doesn't worry me. I trust my QC process enough that each round will safely go bang, insofar as shooting safety goes. I have given ammo away to friends. It's all been checked and rechecked, just like anything else I load. It's never been more than 50-100 rounds at a time, though.

Sunray
July 25, 2013, 04:24 PM
"...as long as no cash trades hands..." Yep. However, the ATF can still decide you're loading commercially without a licence. And you can run into liability issues.

119er
July 26, 2013, 12:58 AM
I help friends load components that they have purchased by giving them instructions and the use of my equipment. I supervise the session and try to have them learn the quirks of the press and what is normal and what is not. I go to the furthest degree of safety that is possible and checks are made frequently.

Just as when someone accompanies me to the range using my ammo they are told that the ammunition is reloads created by me. The risk and dangers are made well known. When reloading they must be present and looking at the levels and watching the powder cop/lockout die. Speed takes a back seat to safety. At the point that they understand the process they are taking no more risk than I am. I also am very specific to who I will teach and allow to load on my equipment. This isn't a hobby for everyone.

RhinoDefense
July 26, 2013, 02:05 AM
No one has ever had criminal charges brought against them or been convicted or been put in prison for loading ammunition for others with compensation. I'd like someone to prove it otherwise.

LBEE
July 26, 2013, 07:34 AM
I use to reload for Friends, but to me it's not worth it to me for all the problems you are in for if something goes wrong or someone gets Hurt. Also, if you Charge them for the Reloads the
ATF can Nail you for selling ammo without a Manf. License. I would be glad to show Friends how to reload if they want to use my Equipment but that's as far as it goes.

TBH
July 26, 2013, 08:47 AM
I have allowed five good friends to use my equipment. They buy their Components and either take them home or I mark their name on them. I except no money. I teach, warn about dangers, and refuse to reload for them. Of the five, now three are set up with their own equipment.

119er
July 26, 2013, 09:56 AM
They buy their Components and either take them home or I mark their name on them.

I know about this. I don't know if my buddy stores his components here for convenience or to keep his wife off his trail! It started as a shoebox and has grown to a shelf in a closet. Whatever it takes to keep a friend shooting. It is a calculated risk to reload but at least he has me to show him how to do it safely. I had to rely on reading books and getting advice from the great people here at THR.

RussellC
July 26, 2013, 10:58 AM
Is it a violation if they paid you to use your equipment to load their own ammo?
Seems that you are merely leasing equipment in that circumstance. I dont know.

But, what if same as above, but you supply the materials too, and charge more than you paid for them? (and again, they do their own work) Again, I dont know. I have absolutely no plans for any of this, and not trying to skirt law here, just fleshing out a few "close to the line" scenarios to make this clear to all..."The Fed is a formidable opponent" is what I tell all my clients...."they have access to all the money they need to enforce the law". "How much do you have?"

Gun owners are already under enough political fire, lets not give the antis any more ammo!

If anyone knows these answers or can get them, I would appreciate it, and it might help others here understand...

Russellc

stavman11
July 26, 2013, 11:18 AM
I personaly dont let friends use MY LOADS in their Guns... They can shoot Mine, but thats it

Not worth the WHAT IF's

Thats My feelings

kostyanj
July 26, 2013, 11:59 AM
Is it a violation if they paid you to use your equipment to load their own ammo?
Seems that you are merely leasing equipment in that circumstance. I dont know.

But, what if same as above, but you supply the materials too, and charge more than you paid for them? (and again, they do their own work) Again, I dont know. I have absolutely no plans for any of this, and not trying to skirt law here, just fleshing out a few "close to the line" scenarios to make this clear to all..."The Fed is a formidable opponent" is what I tell all my clients...."they have access to all the money they need to enforce the law". "How much do you have?"

Gun owners are already under enough political fire, lets not give the antis any more ammo!

If anyone knows these answers or can get them, I would appreciate it, and it might help others here understand...

Russellc

Russell,

I asked this same question on another board because of a business idea I had. I got all sorts of answers and confirmed my suspicion that no one really knows and people are terrified of litigation. I personally don't think that would be illegal as you never manufactured the ammo but some people claim different. I had a former personal injury attorney (ambulance chaser) try to "educate" me on the dangers of what I consider a perfectly legal business venture.

I see it this way: home depot is no more liable for you killing someone or severing your own limb with one of their chainsaws than you would be from someone renting your press.

That being said, being dragged through court is never fun and always unpredictable. I'm still debating my business venture and have calls into a few lawyers to get a straight answer.

Searcher4851
July 26, 2013, 12:11 PM
Good luck on getting a straight answer from a lawyer. I have 2 in the family, and straight answers are few and far between.

X-Rap
July 26, 2013, 05:38 PM
Liability is certainly a huge concern in this country. With that said the same people that are allowed to shoot on our private range can probably shoot my reloads with about equal worry. The list beyond immediate family is very short.
I encourage all of them to get involved with reloading on their own, my dad has no interest and my kids are still to transient, I'm gathering gear for them all as well as a couple friends.

BBQJOE
July 26, 2013, 09:46 PM
I thought the issue here was not so much as making a profit or getting paid, but one of manufacturing and distribution.

I are not a lawyer.

meleors
July 28, 2013, 04:50 AM
I don't reload for friends or anyone else. Not because of concerns of liability or legality but because if I did, I would be spending all my free time making ammo for everyone.

If a friend wishes to come over and pull the handle while I supervise, no problem. Funny how no one has taken me up on that offer. I guess my friends consider their time to be more valuable than mine.

FROGO207
July 28, 2013, 10:10 AM
I have to agree with post 31 there. EVERYONE and their brother wants me to reload for them and are willing to pay me what it costs me for stuff for my reloads but when it comes down to pulling the handle and the actual labor they all loose interest really quick.;) One in 20 will actually put forth the effort to learn how to reload to any degree of proficiency.

buck460XVR
July 28, 2013, 12:36 PM
No one has ever had criminal charges brought against them or been convicted or been put in prison for loading ammunition for others with compensation. I'd like someone to prove it otherwise.


Excellent point. I reload for me, and my immediate family. I let friends shoot my guns with my reloads. Because of this I am very diligent. If they want reloads for their own use in their firearms, they are welcome to use my tools if they don't already have them and I am happy to show them how. I am not worried about my reloads hurting anyone or anyone's firearm. But if my friends have a problem with their firearms, the last thing I want, is for them to suspect my ammo as the cause. I've had good friendships go downhill for less.

BruceB
July 28, 2013, 01:24 PM
As usual, many are MISSING THE POINT.

Once you load ammo for someone and that person takes possession of it, your fate is in the wind.

If there is an accident/incident , IT DOESN'T MATTER if it was your ammo or someone else's production. If there's a lawsuit against YOU because his wife knows you made some rounds for the shooter, how do you prove it wasn't your ammo???

ANSWER: You can't.

Common sense (not so common, of course) dictates that we protect ourselves by NOT exposing our families and futures to any such avoidable risk.
For those who are forever prattling about "Show me the lawsuit" ... see "common sense" above.

Jeff Cooper once wrote, "THE LAW IF AVERAGES IS FAINT COMFORT, IF YOU ARE THE EXCEPTION." Think about it.

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