homemade brass question... no really


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dragon613
July 26, 2013, 07:20 PM
I've been doing a lot of research on the topic and I believe that it can be done. over the next year I plan to be purchasing a full set of machinist tools including a shop press in excess of 100 tons a lathe mill ect. and I think I've got the process thought through in it's entirety all I need to do is purchse the machinery and start making some deep drawing dies. what I wanted to know was if anyone had any advice as to what size press I would need for deep drawing the brass. im thinking that I will be buying at least a 100 ton but if there were any machinists out there who had experience with this kind of operation the advice would be gladly welcomed I did the math of the physics of this operation, converted newtons to tons and it said I should be able to get away with a 50 ton buy I wanted to know from someone with experience as a machinist I can get up to a 200 ton press at the local tool supply and larger ones yet from the manufacturer

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cowtownup
July 26, 2013, 07:38 PM
Helluva first post.... Welcome to THR... I can't offer any advice, but good luck with your quest...

Encoreman
July 26, 2013, 07:47 PM
I 2nd the first post!! How about a much simpler question for some simpler mind like mine. Welcome to THR, if you get this accomplished we need pics.

dragon613
July 26, 2013, 08:32 PM
thanks if I can get this working it would be a great addition to reloading as I could potentialially produce new BRASS not steel cases around 10-15 cent each I just wanted to know if anyone had any experience drawing brass

rcmodel
July 26, 2013, 08:37 PM
Finding Cartridge brass sheet in small enough quantities to make this possible might be real hard to do.
Cartridge brass is not the same alloy as brass you buy at the hardware store.

Then you need a 'coining' press to cut circles out of the sheet.

Then you will need heat treating ovens to anneal the cups between draws.
Then final anneal the necks and leave the heads work-hardened.

There is much more too it then pounding sand down a rat hole.

rc

ArchAngelCD
July 26, 2013, 10:35 PM
Welcome to the forum.

I'm not trying to throw water on the fire but how many cases will you have to produce to recover the price of all the equipment you will need to purchase to produce those cases. Unless you are thinking about producing cases for commercial sale I highly doubt you will recover your costs within your lifetime. (50 ton press $1,995, 100 ton press $4,695)

Kp321
July 26, 2013, 11:19 PM
It would be much simpler to machine casings from brass bar stock.

gamestalker
July 27, 2013, 04:00 AM
Well if you get it effectively up and running, at least you'll always have brass for your needs should the Feds try to impede our hobby by forcing manufacturer's to use non re-loadable case components, like aluminum.

GS

Officers'Wife
July 27, 2013, 06:50 AM
Interesting, another man with an OMB gene. Do you intend to one pass press or two pass? What kind of annealing set up do you plan on? Rimmed or unrimmed cartridges? Good luck.

Potatohead
July 27, 2013, 12:50 PM
Helluva first post.... Welcome to THR... I can't offer any advice, but good luck with your quest...
No doubt....this is deeeeep

clocker
July 27, 2013, 01:33 PM
The general rule for machine tools is that you always want to go as big or bigger than you think at first. I'd stay on the upper end of the presses if you can swing the cost and working space.

With regards to brass... Have you compared the cost of labor, tooling, materials with just buying out a container of military surplus? For most people, 1-10k pieces of brass per cartridge should set them up for life.

Next questions... Are you doing this for independence? Are you doing it for quality? Are you doing it for curiosity? All of those will play into how expensive and extensive this plan will get.

I never like to discourage a person from their dreams, but do like to encourage an overall picture.

P5 Guy
July 27, 2013, 01:48 PM
How many pieces are planning to blank out before you go to the deep draw operation?
A progressive die might be your best shot at drawing for cartridges. I'd think that you'd want al least a 35 ton punch press. Annealing to bring the metal back to a more malleable hardness is a must.
A couple of jobs I had involved drawing "German Silver" a nickel/copper alloy for hermetically sealed relays.

rcmodel
July 27, 2013, 03:00 PM
It would be much simpler to machine casings from brass bar stock.That will only work for low pressure black powder calibers.

The drawing process imparts strength to the brass all out of proportion to a case machined from bar stock.

As mentioned earlier, the work hardened case head enters into how much pressure the finished case can withstand.

You don't get any of that when machining cases from bar stock.

rc

Sunray
July 27, 2013, 03:13 PM
"...I did the math of the physics..." It ain't the physics, it's the cost.
"...all I need to do is purchase the machinery and..." Got a place to put this stuff? Licences, etc? You don't need any press either. Cases aren't stamped.

vongh
July 27, 2013, 03:21 PM
Would'nt you also need a special lathe and form tools made for each individual cartridge to create the extractor groove?

Fn-Scar 17 s
July 27, 2013, 04:48 PM
you will be the best person ever if you can manage it be sure to E-mail The Firearms blog about your wonderful project right here http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/contact/ I recamend E-mailing both tips@thefirearmblog.com and steve@thefirearmblog.com they will be happy to run a story on you and you results I asure you dont be afraid to E-mail multible time though

jmorris
July 27, 2013, 05:14 PM
There is a video on this page that shows you everything you need step by step.

http://www.ssarmory.com/ammunitionmanufacturingequipment.aspx

The last 2 punch presses I bought were $500 each (20 ton and 30 ton) but then you would have to automate them and have tooling. By themselves they are nothing more than big hammers with a precise stroke.

I bet one could get going for just a few millon if he did it just right.

PapaG
July 27, 2013, 08:36 PM
You are going to need to investigate how to do batch annealing also.

Conservidave
July 27, 2013, 08:42 PM
weather you think you can, or weather you think you cant....either way you're right!

Arkansas Paul
July 27, 2013, 10:48 PM
Helluva first post

Agreed!
While I am not optimistic, I am very interested to know how it turns out for you. Please update us and good luck!

jmorris
July 28, 2013, 09:38 AM
The business that I linked to above rebuilds and sells the type of equipment you are looking for.

Case Draw Presses
Case Trim
Heading Presses
Head Turn
Tapering Machines
Body and Neck Annealing
Pierce and Priming with Waterproofing Systems
Bullet Assembly
Lead Headers
Ballistics Equipment
Loading Machines
Linking
Hopper Feed Systems

Annealing the product, portions of or in entirety will be the easy part of your project.

Rule3
July 28, 2013, 10:36 AM
Put your money and time and money into making bullets out of 22 brass.;)

brickeyee
July 28, 2013, 08:03 PM
what I wanted to know was if anyone had any advice as to what size press I would need for deep drawing the brass.

Not any normal press.

ironworkerwill
July 29, 2013, 07:57 PM
I think it's intrepid of dragon613. You will only be limited by your desire to make it happen. Remember 99 percent perspiration.

jmorris
July 30, 2013, 09:43 AM
Quote:
what I wanted to know was if anyone had any advice as to what size press I would need for deep drawing the brass.

Not any normal press.

Nothing special about the presses, just the tooling.

here is one for $1200

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bliss-Punch-Press-No-39-/271245368510?pt=US_Heavy_Equipment&hash=item3f277bdcbe

The presses themselves can be had cheap at equipment auctions. Most of the bidders are scrap guys, they just take the motors off and get scrap price for the iron.

All of the tooling required for the process/automation would be the expensive part.

Hondo 60
July 30, 2013, 10:06 AM
If you have the machinery needed, I'd LOVE to see pics of the finished brass. :D

brickeyee
July 30, 2013, 02:57 PM
Nothing special about the presses, just the tooling.


That is pretty far from any normal reloading press.

jmorris
July 30, 2013, 09:36 PM
Oh yes, much different than reloading presses but they are quite common and have been around since the 19th century.

The style used in the video I linked to is the flywheel type.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_press

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