Failure to extract.


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mboe794
July 27, 2013, 10:24 PM
I have some 9mm reloads that will frequently fail to extract, resulting in an annoying double feed. Happens one or two rounds per magazine. I have a bunch of them, around 500, that I loaded around two years ago. I was fairly new to reloading at that point, but I can't see that being the issue. I worked up the load, it seemed to function fine at the time, so I proceeded to load a small stockpile.

However, I never shot many of them because shortly after that I started experimenting with cast bullets and that is now about all I ever shoot. The other day I just decided to burn through some old stock and discovered this problem.

I have developed a couple other 9mm loads with jacketed bullets, and quite a few with cast bullets, without a hiccup. I've loaded, and shot, maybe 5000 rounds. My techniques havent changed much in the last couple years. This particular load is the only problematic one I have encountered.

Gun is a full size SR9. It works flawlessly with every other load I have put through it.

Recipe is as follows:

124gr Montana Gold JHP
6.4gr Power Pistol
1.120-1.125 OAL
Winchester SP primer
Light crimp with Lee FCD
Mixed brass


Average velocity is 1175 fps. Yes, this is on the warm side, but that is what I love about Power Pistol. I use other powders for milder loads.

Passes the "plunk" test with ease. Every round that I checked (just a small sampling) fit the case gauge. Extractor on the gun seems normal. Rims on unextracted cases appear normal. Just tip the gun up, and they fall out.


Any thoughts on what the heck the problem is? I have a hard time believing they are over pressure, but maybe?

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hostjunkies
July 27, 2013, 10:43 PM
6.4 is listed as the max load from Alliant. Hard to believe the powder charge is causing the FTE.

rfwobbly
July 27, 2013, 10:47 PM
I've had a situation with range "pick up" brass that had been fired in a "9 major" gun, unbeknownst to me. 9 major has so much chamber pressure that the base of the case (near the rim) expands beyond the .392" dimension. This is an area that the average set of resizing dies cannot reach, but with those dimensions the cartridge cannot fully enter the chamber. The 9x19 Luger case normally has a .011" taper anyway, but in this distorted condition readily wedges hard into the chamber.

When one of these cartridges gets jammed half-way into the chamber, the gun will neither go fully into battery, nor will it extract the case without hammering the slide back open.

The only way to spot this situation is to measure each finished cartridge, either with a caliper or a cartridge gauge. Anything larger than .392" is going to jam up tight. Maybe your issue is similar ?

Have you checked these troublesome cartridges with a "cartridge gauge" ? This type distorted case looks perfectly normal, and may not have the "fish belly" that unsupported 40 cal cases get....

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-voZC7lGSHuk/TTObDpoV4UI/AAAAAAAACaY/RVDQqu0uT8g/w956-h717-no/IMG_4291.JPG

mboe794
July 27, 2013, 11:16 PM
Hmmm... thats interesting. I've never thought to check the problem cases with a case gauge because the have been fired by the time problem occurs. I would expect them not to fit.

Maybe I got a hold of some brass like you describe, but it would have more than likely got have mixed into some of my other loads too.

Hondo 60
July 27, 2013, 11:26 PM
Even better than using a case gauge ....

Just use the barrel!
If they pass the "plunk" test, it's not the case.
If they don't pass, well there's your problem.

Good luck in finding the root cause.

Also, if you wouldn't mind, please update us.
Maybe it'll help someone else too.

rcmodel
July 27, 2013, 11:37 PM
+1

If the loaded rounds 'Plunk' in your chamber??

That has nothing to do with a failure to extract.

Mixed brassThere's your Clue.

Figure out of the failures are all the same brand of brass.

There is a tremendous amount of variation in rim and extractor groove, and case capacity in 9mm cases coming from all over the world any more.

That's why I sort'm all and don't have problems fingering it out when I run into something that doesn't work.

Much easier to pin down a problem if you know what brand of brass is causing the problem.


rc

mboe794
July 27, 2013, 11:50 PM
I like RC's suggestion that it may be a specific brand of brass.

I do sort my brass somewhat. Not quite by each specific brand. I have found that RP, Win, S&B, and a few others, provide good neck tension. I use those for jacked bullets. Blazer, PMC and FC tend to be a bit looser. I use those for cast bullets.The former is what the loads in question are loaded with.

It may be a few weeks, but next time I get out to shoot I will test this theory.

bds
July 28, 2013, 03:33 AM
9mm reloads that will frequently fail to extract, resulting in an annoying double feed. Happens one or two rounds per magazine. I have a bunch of them, around 500, that I loaded around two years ago

I use other powders for milder loads.

This particular load is the only problematic one I have encountered.
If you are not experiencing extraction issues with other loads, I would suspect the old loads. Pull some rounds and re-verify bullet weight and powder charges, just to be sure.

You could reload the cases you experienced extraction problems with your "other milder loads with different powders" and see if you experience the same extraction problem. If you do, then we could suspect the brass. If you don't, then we could rule out the brass and focus on the "old load".

Peter M. Eick
July 28, 2013, 06:05 AM
I had a 9mm Amerc and PPU brass had that problem recently with my 9mm EMP. It would just not come out of the gun without some serious slamming the action and in once case a rubber mallet.

Learned my lesson. That brand of brass only gets fired once in my 210's (which handle it fine) and then let fly.

Such is life in a public range where my brass gets mixed with others.

engineermike
July 28, 2013, 11:35 AM
There was a theory going around a while back that cases not extracting might be a sign of over presser. If your load is near max charge then you might back off a couple of .grains and see it that helps. The brass issues mentioned above are good too, sometimes brass just wears out and won't spring back like it should.

gamestalker
July 29, 2013, 12:15 AM
With that warm of a load, I would suspect excessive pressures along with mixed brass. I like to load warm myself, but I won't do it with mixed brass or with brass of unknown history, and I don't exceed the published maximum with rimless AL cartridges.

When we work with rimless cartridge loads that push the envelope, it is advisable to know your brass. This is especially important with rimless cartridges, because they are very difficult to read pressure signs with, and will commonly fail without ever seeing it coming. The best way to avoid problems with these type cartridges is to obey your chrony, and don't try to get more from the load than what the published and tested data indicates as maximum.

Be safe!

GS

mboe794
July 29, 2013, 01:43 PM
Am I wrong to think that a failure to extract due to high pressure would cause a damaged rim on the case? I havent observed any of this on my brass.

Springfield0612
July 29, 2013, 06:29 PM
Not sure of the mechanics of the SR9, but maybe an extractor return spring failure?

Found this on the Web, may have some clues for you as I did not read the entire thread, but it sounds like this is a problem with the SR9's:

http://rugerforum.net/ruger-pistols/22445-new-sr9c-problems-already-4.html

bds
July 29, 2013, 09:31 PM
But OP posted the "milder" loads using other powders did not cause extraction problem in the same pistol, just the particular Power Pistol load from 2 years ago. That's why I suggested OP use the same problematic cases to load some "milder" loads using other powders that successfully extracted in the SR9.
This particular load is the only problematic one I have encountered.
Since the OP would be working with "known" working powder/charge loads, if the cases produce similar extraction problem, then we could suspect the cases. If the cases extract without issues, then the "old load" would be suspect. Would be a quick test to rule that aspect out.

I am going by what the OP originally prefaced the thread ... the extractor is OK and the rims appear "normal".
Every round that I checked ... fit the case gauge. Extractor on the gun seems normal. Rims on unextracted cases appear normal.

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