Smith M&P 9mm Accuracy and Extraction Fixed?


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razorback2003
July 28, 2013, 10:35 PM
Has Smith and Wesson fixed the previous accuracy problems of the full sized 9mm M&P? I have read about folks getting six-eight inch groups at 25 yards with the 9mm's. Also, have the extractors been updated? Is the new trigger with positive reset in the current production pistols?

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TestPilot
July 29, 2013, 04:16 AM
I had some issues with slide not going full forward that went away after "break-in."

None of the M&P I've shot had any problem with extraction.

Trigger definitely is better. Less overtravel and reset that can be felt.

All mine are headshot capable at 35 yards, but most of my experience are with 40S&W. I can't speak for 9mm versions.

Madcap_Magician
July 29, 2013, 11:41 AM
I think these issues are limited to the very early guns. Issues that serious tend to get addressed rapidly. I have owned M&Ps since 2007 and have never had a malfunction with them.

9mmepiphany
July 29, 2013, 03:32 PM
I think the OP is addressing the 9mm M&P, which has different issues with accuracy and extraction than the .40 versions...the triggers are the same and the latest (mid-2013) versions have more feel to the reset. This hasn't been a major concern when shooting at speed, but I understand some folks feel differently about it.

Accuracy - S&W has improve the barrels as a running change. Whereas there was a wider variance between "good and bad" accuracy in earlier models, the newer ones seem to group more consistently. The change seems to have been one of fitting the hood to the slide. Mine has always been able to group ~2" at 25 yards

Extractor - My understanding it that the M&P9 still uses the same extractor as the M&P40. Apparently the extraction problems, in heavy use, with 9mm cases isn't significant enough to warrant a redesign. If your level of concern is high enough, there is always the option of Apex Tactical's Failure Resistant Extractor (FRE)

rodinal220
July 30, 2013, 11:09 AM
My Full Size(FS) S&W M&P 9mm range kit has been a major disappointment. It was purchased new and is woefully inaccurate,it doesn't group,it patterns. Trying to hit paper past 15 yards is pointless. Ejection has been reliable but is "soft" compared to other pistols,it plops them on the ground at 3-4 O'clock a few feet away.

The accuracy complaints are with the FS 9mm platform only for some reason,not .357 SIG,40 S&W,45acp or compacts or the Shield. S&W has redesigned the barrel ,once to beef up the forward area of the barrel/hood area(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Rv7Bf2A8VQU/T-dHcRKg7bI/AAAAAAAAAQo/cdHYF9HFmAY/s320/M%2526P-Barrels-2.jpg),and the twist rate has been changed again to a faster twist from 1.18.75 then to 1-24 now to 1-10.Current production barrels have a dimple on the bottom barrel lug.

My Sig P226,BHP,Glocks,Older S&Ws 9mm,H&K,XD/XDm and Norinco 213(all 9mm) are all way more accurate than my S&W M&P 9mm. If my other pistols will give me 3-4" at 25 yards with training ammo and SD/HD ammo,why can't the M&P??
With my H&K P7 or my XD 3.8 I can put the rounds thru in one ragged hole at 7 yards,M&P makes a nice pattern or sometimes will vertically string for no reason on slow fire drills.

I had S&W check it out and they returned it saying it "was in spec" "no repairs needed" what is your spec S&W? one moa of garbage can lid. My cap and ball revolvers are more accurate.

Either the locking block,barrel or slide(ejection port/barrel hood area) are out of spec and have too much slop in those areas on some guns. The rifling at the crown disappears and doesn't look good IMHO.

Looking at getting a new production barrel and locking block,and I would like to re-crown the original barrel but others have found the steel is VERY HARD and eats carbide tooling. Word has it that the locking block dimensions were changed to tighten things up.


Two lemons out of three NIB S&W products:(:(:(. At least S&W made good on my BG38 and gave me a new gun that is working well so far.

Hanzo581
July 30, 2013, 11:32 AM
I've been seeing more negative posts about the M&P 9mm lately. Making me rethink picking one up this weekend, perhaps my second choice of the FNP 9 is the way to go.

9mmepiphany
July 30, 2013, 12:10 PM
Either the locking block,barrel or slide(ejection port/barrel hood area) are out of spec and have too much slop in those areas on some guns. The rifling at the crown disappears and doesn't look good IMHO.

It isn't that the gun isn't locking up tightly...although, listening to your issues, it might be with yours', it is a matter of the actions unlocking too soon in the cycle.

The M&P FS was designed around the .40 cartridge, as that was the predominate cartridge in their target market. Their choice of rifling rate, for the 9mm, for the original barrels was disappointing (same as that long used in the .38/.357 barrels) to say the least. But the major contributing factor to accuracy issues was that the barrels unlocked too early in the pressure curve

Potatohead
July 30, 2013, 12:19 PM
A "Failure Resistant Extractor"? Is that possible, or is that marketing spin?

9mmepiphany
July 30, 2013, 12:44 PM
A "Failure Resistant Extractor"? Is that possible, or is that marketing spin?
Before I'm offended, I'll offer the benefit of the doubt that you either lack of knowledge about the company, metallurgy, engineering or production, as opposed to inferring that the company is offering a sham product.

The name of the product is obviously a part of marketing, but the product is more optimized for its intended function than the factory part

ku4hx
July 30, 2013, 12:54 PM
A "Failure Resistant Extractor"? Is that possible, or is that marketing spin?
I think it falls right in line with "bullet resistant glass", "rust resistant stainless steel", "tamper resistant packaging" and other such claims. There's a difference between something being "resistant" and something being "proof".

Many things have certain legitimate "resistance" qualities. That doesn't mean they can't fail, it means the likelihood of failure in general usage is diminished to one degree or another.

italianbreadman
July 30, 2013, 01:00 PM
There may have been a second change to the barrels. I have a June 2013 gun and it has two dimples on the lug, perhaps signifying a second revision?

9mmepiphany
July 30, 2013, 03:42 PM
I think it falls right in line with "bullet resistant glass", "rust resistant stainless steel", "tamper resistant packaging" and other such claims. There's a difference between something being "resistant" and something being "proof".

Many things have certain legitimate "resistance" qualities. That doesn't mean they can't fail, it means the likelihood of failure in general usage is diminished to one degree or another.
Yes, it is like the Wilson Combat Bullet Proof Parts...it is the colloquial meaning, rather than the literal... doesn't mean they are meant to stop bullets

ku4hx
July 30, 2013, 05:07 PM
Yes, it is like the Wilson Combat Bullet Proof Parts...it is the colloquial meaning, rather than the literal... doesn't mean they are meant to stop bullets
+1 ... I used to own a 1973 Ford Mustang Mach 1. I never could get it to the speed of sound. Lord knows I tried, but never quite got there.

mes228
July 31, 2013, 08:18 AM
I have a M&P PRO C.O.R.E in 9mm with a J-Point red dot installed. It has been utterly reliable with everything, quite accurate, fairly good trigger. In the past I've owned a few M&P's. It's news to me that there ever was a problem with them. The M&P PRO is one of my "keeper" pistols. It's hard to do better for the price, especially with the C.O.R.E. option. I would have no difficulty hitting a squirrel at 25 yards from a rest.

Sam1911
July 31, 2013, 09:44 AM
It's news to me that there ever was a problem with them.
The problems certainly do not seem to affect all of the M&PPROs equally.

However, they have had a spotty history and while I REALLY like them and have shot them VERY well, I just don't have the guts to buy one and take the risk.

The problems we've most commonly seen in our local and regional competitions have been extraction issues and light strikes. These problems are sometimes fixed by upgrading the extractor and religiously cleaning out the striker channel. And sometimes they are not. And sometimes they are "fixed" for a few hundred rounds and the problems recur. And sometimes they are fixed by a trip back to S&W, and sometimes they aren't. Or they are, but then return after a few boxes of ammo. I have master-level shooting pals who've sent the same gun back to S&W three times and more without a happy resolution. Another close pal (and IDPA Master/USPSA "A"-class shooter) has owned five, and now owns none. I've watched numerous competitors, in my squad on in squads I'm running, deal with the "click-not-bang" or FTEs.

(And this community of shooters all know and regularly shoot with one of the better-known M&P gunsmiths, Dan Burwell, so one would expect better-than-average results.)

It's really frustrating because the M&P is such a great gun otherwise. I picked up a borrowed M&P9 and, the first time I shot it, ran the IDPA Classifier course of fire in the fastest time I've ever shot. Sure would like to dive in, but I'm just not willing at this point.

rodinal220
July 31, 2013, 11:34 AM
9mmepiphany:

Quote:"It isn't that the gun isn't locking up tightly...although, listening to your issues, it might be with yours', it is a matter of the actions unlocking too soon in the cycle.

The M&P FS was designed around the .40 cartridge, as that was the predominate cartridge in their target market. Their choice of rifling rate, for the 9mm, for the original barrels was disappointing (same as that long used in the .38/.357 barrels) to say the least. But the major contributing factor to accuracy issues was that the barrels unlocked too early in the pressure curve"



The barrel fit issue "IS" the culprit. I have heard of that one with the unlocking issue and it has not panned out. The fix outside the factory is to have an oversize hard fit barrel fitted to your gun,much like a smith will hard-fit a barrel to a 1911.

Grant at G&R Tactical(as does team S&W) has an arrangement with Storm Lake to supply him with oversize gunsmith fit barrels (FS 9mm),not the common drop in barrel that SL produces:http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104659.

Grants personal FS M&P 9mm could not hit the broadside of a barn,after a hard fit barrel its pretty near a bullseye gun. The oversize barrel had the extra meat on it to fill all the over size areas on the M&P. Customer feedback has been more than positive on the over size barrel fitted to their gun.

Its sad you have to spend $200 bucks on a custom barrel job and another $150-200 on APEX parts to get a good trigger or extraction for some folks. A $500 gun is now a $900-1000 gun.

My Glocks are all accurate,I like the stock Glock trigger with 5.5lb(4.5 nicer!) connector with some tuning it pretty nice.The S&W M&P only virtue to me is Superior ergonomics to the Austrian poly guns.

Too many growing pains with S&W M&P series.

razorback2003
July 31, 2013, 12:01 PM
I think it is a shame that the 40 cal M&P that I tried out the slide would go forward automatically every time you put a magazine in the gun.

Then the 9mm longslide M&P I shot had been worked on several times for extraction issues, had a new barrel, extractor put on by S&W, and still has weak extraction.

Not that Glocks are perfect. I think the grip on them is not that great, but I've never had different kinds of Glocks mess up on me like M&P's.

Sam1911
July 31, 2013, 12:12 PM
I think it is a shame that the 40 cal M&P that I tried out the slide would go forward automatically every time you put a magazine in the gun.FWIW, that's kind of a question mark in the "problem" category.

Most (probably 90% that I've talked to) users LOVE that they do that and rely on it to speed up their reloads.

(I do understand that you may hate it.)

9mmepiphany
July 31, 2013, 04:27 PM
I think it is a shame that the 40 cal M&P that I tried out the slide would go forward automatically every time you put a magazine in the gun.
Mine has consistently done that after the first couple of hundred rounds. It has made me a very happy camper that it has been so consistent :p

Hangingrock
July 31, 2013, 10:59 PM
My example of the MP9 is not and never has been problematic in regards to functionality/ accuracy. January of 2009 I acquired mine. I've had no ammunition issues with Geco, RWS, PPU, Federal, Blazer, Remington, WWB and Speer 124Gr+P-GDHP. Accuracy is on par with the Glock pistols I've fired. Of the ammunition consumed (500) were Speer 124Gr+P-GDHP. Total ammunition consumption is approximately 12000 rounds to date.

burk
August 1, 2013, 12:18 AM
My example of the MP9 is not and never has been problematic in regards to functionality/ accuracy. January of 2009 I acquired mine. I've had no ammunition issues with Geco, RWS, PPU, Federal, Blazer, Remington, WWB and Speer 124Gr+P-GDHP. Accuracy is on par with the Glock pistols I've fired. Of the ammunition consumed (500) were Speer 124Gr+P-GDHP. Total ammunition consumption is approximately 12000 rounds to date.
This was not a problem that affected every 9mm full size Smith made. But I talked to police armorers who would get 10 guns in and six would shoot great but four of them couldn't print 6" groups at 25 yards. It is an issue, and Smith is on the second redesign of the barrel. The biggest problem I saw was that Smith service didn't acknowledge the problem and rarely fixed it if you got a bad one. My recommendation would be stay away from M & P full size Nines until S & W gets it right. Like others have said, they work great in .40, and the .45's are pretty good, but that platform (full size) has issues with 9mm.

BILLG
August 1, 2013, 01:36 AM
Sorry to disappoint but my M&P 9 mm Full size pistols have none of those problems.

1KPerDay
August 1, 2013, 02:24 AM
My new 9mm CORE has a 2 dot barrel and is very accurate.

Sam1911
August 1, 2013, 08:26 AM
Sorry to disappointWhy in the world would that disappoint anyone? That's fantastic! You should be happy with it!

I don't think anyone here has said that EVERY M&P9 exhibits either one of these quirks. Just that enough do to make them a bit of a gamble, especially if you use them hard as those of us in competition circles tend to do.

If yours works and you like it, that's really great!

Nakanokalronin
August 1, 2013, 10:21 AM
I had 8" groups with my FS9 at 15 yards I bought last year. A new barrel from S&W brought it down to 6" groups, but was still unacceptable. I sold it, waited and bought another one this year with the modified slide stop and new sear. Accuracy on that was around 4" groups at 15 yards. It still wasn't as good as every other 9mm pistol I owned and with the idiotic mag dilemma for that caliber, I sold it too.

What I bought instead was a M&P FS45 with 4.5" barrel, bought several mags for $20 shipped each right away and am getting 1.5-2" groups with it at 15 yards. I'm definitely glad I got away from the FS9 models. My Compact 9 and Shield 9 are far more accurate than either FS9 I owned.

Hangingrock
August 1, 2013, 07:55 PM
This was not a problem that affected every 9mm full size Smith made. But I talked to police armorers who would get 10 guns in and six would shoot great but four of them couldn't print 6" groups at 25 yards.

This is not meant to be argumentative but rather an observation.

How could six out of ten pistols be fault free and four be problematic? This would especially be true should the ten have came from the same production run utilizing the same batch parts that the other six pistols were made with that functioned with out problem?

I would say that QC procedures with the ISO certification the the procedures and documentation would point to quality produced parts made to specification. On the other hand I've noted this observation: One may still produce junk under ISO but at least it is well documented junk.

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