better off with tupperware?

[telewinz]

Myself and 14 other students were finishing our Ohio CCW qualifications at the range today. One guy is shooting one of those poly-plastic 9mm pistols (well known brand) when after 3 rounds he calls a crease fire. Seems his girlfriend/wife had dropped his pistol in the parking lot (gravel) before bringing it inside. On the 3rd round a piece of the frame/grip broke off and put his gun out of action. The class was a little amazed that a 3 foot drop could put one of these guns out of action like that. I for one had never considered the possibility but now that I've seen it happen, it will be alloy or steel frames for me. Super-glue anyone? There was also a Bryco .380 (same couple) it failed to fire even one round, the barrel and slide were rubbing for some reason. I guess I won't use zinc frames (?) either:barf:

[Mr. Mysterious]

What brand? Glock?

[telewinz]

I don't really want to say the brand because I don't think this "weakness" would be unique to a brand but more a weakness of the polymer material. The top left frame is what broke off.

[Pylon]

i seriously doubt that this incident of his is very common at all. I've dropped my glock loaded and unloaded on concrete before and it was fine. I've heard of many people who have dropped their plastic guns on hard surfaces and their gun coming out fine.

Come to think of it, i'm sure shooting the gun is far more stressing on the gun then dropping it a few feet. Sounds like his gun was an isolated incident and i wouldn't worry about it.

[Nikon Shooter]

I am curious if you are referring to Glocks as well.....

Between my brother and I, we have three Glocks (two model 30's and a 27) which have seen tons and tons of range time without so much as a hiccup, much less falling apart..... I have never dropped mine, but find it hard to believe that it would break from a three-four foot fall onto gravel..... Perhaps it would, but I just don't see it happening.

You claimed that not only did the one person have trouble with their weapon, but the spouse/BF/GF also had trouble with theirs..... I cannot help but wonder if improper care, misuse, neglect, etc. wasn't the primary cause of the couples problems with their guns...

[Navy joe]

My money says Taurus, I've got Glocks that have survived much worse. Besides, some of the magazines have been dropped, kicked, stepped on, loaded or unloaded on every surface imaginable for hundreds of times, all continue to work fine. You could just as easily drop a steel gun and bend something or break a control off, it's all in how it lands. Today's lesson is: "Don't drop your freaking gun!" ;)

[Delmar]

...may the ghost of my Drill Sgt haunt them for dropping their weapon!

[Mr. Mysterious]

No doubt about the drill sgt stuff. I dropped my weapon ONCE during D and C.

[Delmar]

Mr. Mysterious

Still doin pushups??:D

[memorex]

I'd be willing to bet I could throw any of my glocks as high as I was able to and let them fall onto concrete and they'd be shootable the minute I picked them up...

[treeprof]

I don't think it indicates much of anything re polymer. Metal bends and breaks as well; a lot depends just on how the gun hits the ground. One of my Glocks has been dropped hard on concrete a few times, both deliberately and once accidentally, w/out prob, including a direct hit on the Trijicons. Andy Stanford regularly tosses his Glock 15-20 yds into a berm in his courses to make a pt abt guns being tools that may well see abuse. A LEO Academy trainer I know tosses both Glocks and S&W (metal frame) pistols (those are the brands most area cops use) across the room in his classroom to demonstrate the same thing. Freaks the students out, but makes the pt that guns are pretty tough, and for a reason. Ruger's polymer frames seem to be pretty tough as well.

[Otony]

I have nothing against Glocks, I have owned more than a few, and am just about ready to pop for a G20.

HOWEVER! About ten (?) years ago, I was at an indoor range in Milpitas where an employee had just dropped a Glock onto concrete. We came in about a half hour AFTER the alleged incident, so I cannot testify as to exactly what happened.

The slide was off the pistol, and a portion of the frame was cracked right where the disassembly levers are. The levers would no longer stay up, and the slide could not be retained on the frame. Physically examining it didn't reveal any dings, dents, abrasions, etc. It was broken in the one spot, and wasn't going back together. I don't recall whether or not part of the frame was broken off, or merely cracked, sorry to say.

The employee (who was in BIG trouble over the incident) was claiming that he had merely dropped it. If I recall correctly, there were a few other people around, but I don't know if they were buddies of his or not (you know, as in, "hey y'all, watch THIS!").

Anyway, file this with the second hand tales that abound, but suffice to say, I did see a broken Glock once.

[Mr. Mysterious]

Mr. Mysterious Still doin pushups??

Needless to say, I don't drop my weapon...or try stupid DnC tricks anymore.
When I became an NCO, my soldiers knew to treat their weapon with respect...and not be seen without it in the field.

Same will hold true in a year when I get my commission.

[telewinz]

I don't think it indicates much of anything re polymer. Metal bends and breaks as well; a lot depends just on how the gun hits the ground. One of my Glocks has been dropped hard on concrete a few times, both deliberately and once accidentally, w/out prob,
I guess you could drop an anvil and something could break off but it's not likely. But common sense states that an alloy or steel frame is going to stand up to abruse better that a hard polymer plastic. Why do you think they have a METAL liner in them?

[Tamara]

Seeing as how name brand polymer-framed guns, such as the Glock, USP, SIGpro, et cetera, were all designed to stand up to the FBI's "frisbee test" and all the other inane tortures that agencies have put into their pistol trials, I don't think you can project what happened with this Hi-Point, Kel-Tec or Taurus onto polymer frames in general. (I've also seen an alloy framed SIG and a steel framed Colt rendered hors de combat from falls: the SIG fell some twelve or fifteen feet onto dirt, and the Colt fell maybe four feet onto asphalt.)

I don't like polymer frames. I won't buy any polymer-framed handguns. But I don't kid myself about them not being durable enough.

[treeprof]

Why do you think they have a METAL liner in them?

What "liner" on what gun? Do you mean the insert w/the fire control parts in a Glock or other guns w/polymer frames?

Whether or not metal hold up better than a polymer material depends on the quality of the metal vs. the polymer, and the use to which it is put. The ability of some polymers to absorb stress is exactly why they are the preferred material in some applications. And "hard" does not necessarily equate to "brittle".

I have lots of metal frame handguns, both steel and alloy, that I shoot and sometimes carry, but I'm not sure that they're necessarily any tougher than the Glocks or my SigPro or my old Kahr P9 merely by virtue of their being metal. I have no doubt that any of them could break under the right circumstances. But, I'm not going to worry about any supposed inferiority of polymer framed firearms based on a few anecdotes when my experience, the experience of many others, and numerous tests by LEO agencies have been to the contrary. Now, zinc is certainly off my list of acceptable materials as long as I can afford better, and Taurus did produce a run of brittle Milleniums, but I think Taurus' problems are more indicative of poor manufacturing than anything inherent to polymer.

[telewinz]

both steel and alloy, that I shoot and sometimes carry, but I'm not sure that they're necessarily any tougher than the Glocks or my SigPro or my old Kahr P9 merely by virtue of their being metal.

I'm sure and so are most other people, steel and most alloy ARE tougher. Can you cite a quality steel or alloy gun that isn't? :uhoh:

[treeprof]

telewinz - You were the one who said that this incident, with a gun whose brand you refuse to name, leads you to think that polymer guns may be inferior to metal ones. So, you don't like polymer guns - that's fine. But based on your 2nd post in this thread, you appear to be basing your opinion on one broken polymer gun. Again, one gun whose brand you refuse to name. If we're going by anecdotes, then there're as many claiming high round counts in polymer guns (with Glocks, anyway, but not with something like a Sigma or Keltec) as there are of polymer frames failing. What facts, other than this one gun, lead you to believe that metal must be inherently superior? Will a "quality" (thanks for the qualifier) metal gun outlast a cheap polymer gun? I'd certainly guess so. But if we're comparing, say, a Glock 17 or 19 with a metal framed equivalent, I'd go at least even money on the Glock. Let us know what kind of gun broke. If it's a Glock or HK, that'd indicate a problem that has yet to widely manifest itself in those brands. If it's a Kraptec (yes, I have 2) or something, then you win the "metal vs plastic" debate under those circumstances.

I said that I'm not sure that my polymer guns aren't as tough as my metal ones - I've simply not dropped (thankfully) or shot them enough to know which'll give first. I do know that my metal SIGs experience more frame galling or gouging than my Glocks, and that I'd prefer the frames to be steel rather than alloy if SIG's going to make them in metal, at least in the .40 and 357 SIG cartridges. The FAM's went w/SIG 229's, but there's some (again, anecdotal) evidence that at not all of them are holding up so well to the pounding of the 357 SIG. Would polymer frames hold up any better? Prob not; that round seems to beat the crap out of most guns. On the other hand, the Ohio State Police found that the alloy framed SIG 226 .40 beat both polymer and steel frame guns in their tests. And, conversely, FBI and DEA find the polymer Glocks to be the gun of their choice in .40, after extensive testing as Tamara mentioned.

If polymer (of which there many types and grades) was inherently inferior to metal, it wouldn't be replacing it in a host of applications. There are simply too many differences among polymers and metals to make a blanket statment about superiority. Certainly the gun makers have found that out. There's a reason Glock went with a 3rd pin in their .40 frames, tho not so much due to a problem w/polymer frames per se as with the insert. When Glock did have their frame issue last year, it was the metal rails shearing, not the polymer. There's also a reason that SIG went to solid steel slides when they came out with the .40 229 - the fabricated metal slides on the 228/225/220 just wouldn't take the abuse. The alloy frames, tho, seem to gouge and gall as a matter of course. Again, differences in specific materials can make a big difference in performance in a given task. Good polymer wins in some cases, good metal in others. Re the ability to hold frame rails so the slide can cycle, it seems to be a wash on good guns from what I've seen.

If you want to name specific reasons why metal is superior for me to respond to, or go point-by-point on specifc aspects of quality metal vs quality polymer, I'm gonna hafta get my wife involved; she's a materials engineer and I'm a wood guy.

[Justin]

I'm sure and so are most other people, steel and most alloy ARE tougher. Can you cite a quality steel or alloy gun that isn't? Define 'tougher.'

Do you mean tensile strength?
Ductility?
Hardness?
Reduction of Area?
Impact Resistance?
Density?
Compression?
Brittleness?

Believe it or not, may plastics can and do exceed steel, aluminum, and iron in tests measuring what is listed above.

It's all a give-and-take. Increasing strength in one area can and will reduce it in another area. It's all a matter of matching the material to what you need it to do.

Hence you can't say 'all plastic guns suck' because it simply isn't true.

I find it somewhat odd that you won't name the type of weapon, as well.

[treeprof]

Nicely summarized Justin. My wife went off to bed and said she has zero interest in participating!

[Gary Brommeland]

A few years ago, I had a case head separation with commercial reloads in a Glock 17. This condition often requires a trip back to the factory with a metal frame weapon because they crack under the stress of the detonation. My Glock barfed the magazine out without any damage whatsoever. I reloaded (after a thorough inspection) and went back to the firing line - not a hiccup since!
I actually felt the polymer grip frame expand under the force and then contract back to it's original dimensions right in my hand.

[arinvolvo]

well, my tupperware DOES keep my leftovers fresh.:D

[telewinz]

Believe it or not, may plastics can and do exceed steel, aluminum, and iron in tests measuring what is listed above.

Again which quality steel or alloy pistol will NOT survive the drop test better than a polymer pistol? I have a P11 so I have no "ax to grind" against plastic pistols. They ARE a success but to have a combat pistol put out of action due to a 3 foot fall indicates a serious weakness to me. I still plan on keeping my P11 and this weekend will probably buy a Kel-tec .380 for CCW.

[9x19]

telewinz,

The FBI's Field Suitabiltiy Test did not find the polymer frames wanting:

"With the pistol containing primed cartridge in their chamber, and dummy rounds in the mags, they were next dropped, twice at each orientation, onto concrete from a height of four feet: muzzle down, muzzle up, on their right side, on their left side, sights down, and squarely on the butt. Immediately following this, the cases were examined for primer indents then the pistols were fired with 20 rounds to ensure proper functioning.

The guns, loaded again with primed cartridges in their chambers, and dummy rounds in the mags, were tossed from a height of four feet, to a distance of 15 feet onto concrete, landing twice each on their right and left sides. The guns could not fire and the magazines had to stay in place. Immediately following this, the cases were examined for primer indents then the pistols were fired with 20 rounds to ensure proper functioning.

Two magazines, loaded with dummy ammo were also dropped, twice at each orientation, onto concrete from a height of four feet onto their base plates and onto their feed lips. They could not lose a round and were then tested by firing 10 rounds each without a malfunction."

I'm guessing your observed account is more fluke than trend.

[powertoast]

Keisler's (www.keislersonline.com) has a local access tv show. They dropped a Glock out of a helicopter onto an asphalt parking lot, then ran over it with a tank (on grass). The gun functioned fine after that. This is anecdotal, and anything mechanical can break, but Glocks certainly have a rep for durability (deserved, IMO).

cheers

[Zach S]

Anyway, file this with the second hand tales that abound, but suffice to say, I did see a broken Glock once. I have too. the spring that holds the takedown up broke in a G19 rental.

[BluesBear]

Doug Kiesler has a really great tank and military vehicle collection.
But then Doug is cool like that.

[Carbon_15]

Tam..I thought you had a Glock 29 & 30?

[355sigfan]

GLocks have been dropped 200 feet from helicopters without any real damage and being able to shoot fine. Polimer is tough if its made right.
Pat

[harrydog]

"If you want to name specific reasons why metal is superior for me to respond to, or go point-by-point on specifc aspects of quality metal vs quality polymer, I'm gonna hafta get my wife involved; she's a materials engineer and I'm a wood guy."


The polymers used in guns is indeed strong stuff. Pound for pound perhaps stronger than steel. But a good steel gun is stronger than a polymer version, I think. Just look at what happens to the polymer guns that are involved in a kaboom. It happens in steel guns also, but their frames seem to withstand the extreme pressure without sustaining any damage.
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/hk-kb.html

[harrydog]

Tamara wrote:
"I don't like polymer frames. I won't buy any polymer-framed handguns."

You used to be a Glock fan. You were even a GlockTalk moderator. What happened?

[LynnMassGuy]

WHAT KIND OF GUN WAS IT!!!!!!!

[Tamara]

You used to be a Glock fan. You were even a GlockTalk moderator. What happened?

I decided to focus on semiauto pistols that I shot better and could personalize to fit my needs and desires.

This doesn't mean that I think Glocks suck, but, looking back from today, I find the pistols that used to fascinate me to be a little dull, common, compromised, and awkward. I have no problem with recommendig someone buy a Glock, but they aren't the guns for me anymore.

[powertoast]

< I find the pistols that used to fascinate me to be a little dull, common, compromised, and awkward.

Sounds like you are describing Algore. You Tennesseans sent him to the US Senate, then voted against him in 2000. :)

cheers!

[Tamara]

I didn't move to TN 'til 11/00.

Cheers! :)

[Carbon_15]

semiauto pistols that I shot better and could personalize to fit my needs and desires


Such as?

[harrydog]

"This doesn't mean that I think Glocks suck, but, looking back from today, I find the pistols that used to fascinate me to be a little dull, common, compromised, and awkward. I have no problem with recommendig someone buy a Glock, but they aren't the guns for me anymore."

I know what you mean. I don't think they suck either, but I no longer own any of them. Most gun people seem to go through a "Glock phase" at one time or another!

[telewinz]

The same arguments used to defend polymer pistols are pretty much the same used to justify aluminum alloy frames 40 years ago. Steel is still better than both in MOST cases when used in handguns. When they field an M1 Abrams with a polymer cannon or turret you will have a good argument. Trees have been used as cannons and I'm sure an argument can be made for this practice but steel alloy remains superior.

[Mr. Mysterious]

When they field an M1 Abrams with a polymer cannon or turret you will have a good argument. Trees have been used as cannons and I'm sure an argument can be made for this practice but steel alloy remains superior.

That is not really a fair comparrison. If the purpose of the maingun on a tank was simply to shoot it wouldn't be a problem to make the turrent out of a polymer...but it also must be armored to defend against other tanks and anti-tank weapons.

They make planes with polymers...and no one complains (except the people that can't see the stealth planes).

People complained about the M-16 when it entered service...Made by Mattel...and it is going on over 40 years of service. That is darn near as long as any rifle the US militery has used.

There is no denying the fact that Glocks are as durable as anything gets... Yes, they still need steel in the barrel and the slide, but polymer on the frame saves weight, is durable, and absorbs recoil pulse.

People said that anything but metal for the body of a car would be junk...

I'm sure back in the stone age the first guy to make a bronze shield was told "That will never be as good as stretched cowhide".

[Tamara]

When they field an M1 Abrams with a polymer cannon or turret

Every Abrams since the first one has had a composite armored turret. Gonna buy a ceramic pistol anytime soon?

You should pick your analogies with greater care. ;) :p

[Tamara]

Such as?

It starts with a "19" and ends with an "11". :)

[355sigfan]

I love 1911 a bit more now too. But for the great majority of people the Glock is a better choice. 1911 operators need to be a cut above.
Pat

[arinvolvo]

I was lucky enough to skip the glock phase...I started on the steyr phase.:D and im still kinda there.

[telewinz]

Every Abrams since the first one has had a composite armored turret. Gonna buy a ceramic pistol anytime soon?
Gee, no kidding and here I thought they were made with boiler plate. But what they aren't made of Grasshopper is a polymer plastic. I heard that NASA did a follow-up on the FBI tests and dropped a Glock from low Earth orbit and the chambered round did not discharge....ever:neener:

[BluesBear]

...and it is going on over 40 years of service. That is darn near as long as any rifle the US militery has used. The only other US Main Battle Rifle, in general issue, that has even come close is the various versions of the 1903 Springfield.

[Carbon_15]

"19" and ends with an "11".

Ouch..that hurts.
From Glocks to 1911's. That like you wifecheating on you with your best friend:evil: