Shotgun or AR for Home Defense


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rav373
August 1, 2013, 09:57 AM
Came across this article on the shotgun vs ar - shotgun vs AR for home defense (http://westernshootingjournal.com/shotgun/home-defense-shotgun-tactics-2/)

I've carried both while in the military, but favored more of the SG in the urban setting.

Wanted to find out what you all think about this?

Now that I'm out and want to have my own shotgun. But gotta find something that my wife can handle as well.

Any suggestions?

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LeonCarr
August 1, 2013, 09:59 AM
Inside a house, the Shotgun.

There are many many threads here on THR on this very topic. A quick search might answer your question faster and with less drama :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

jmr40
August 1, 2013, 10:26 AM
The AR does everything better indoors or out, except cost. There is a reason LE and the military are dumping shotguns in favor of the AR.

A shotgun loaded with buckshot has about 25-30 ft lbs recoil vs about 5 lbs for an AR.

A shtogun has 5-8 shots vs 20-30 with an AR.

A shotgun, even with the shortest legal barrel is longer, heavier and more combersome

Buckshot is MORE likely to overpenerate and cause injuries in other rooms than 223 softpoint ammo

Both rounds are equal in stopping performance

The shotguns only real advantage is a pattern spread making hits easier. At indoor ranges the patterns are so small as to negate this advantage. Might as well shoot a single projectile.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

Fred Fuller
August 1, 2013, 10:28 AM
Same answer as always - use what you have that you are best at using.

If you think something else that you don't have is better for the job, GET GOOD AT USING IT before you adopt it for HD.

People like to spend time playing with catalogs and magazine articles and fantasies about this hardware or that hardware or some other hardware. People don't like to spend time in classes and on the range, skull sweating and physically sweating to learn and practice new skills. That's why there are 1000 times as many threads on "what firearm/accessories/kewl stuff to buy" as there are on training and practice. Skill doesn't come in a box or a blister pack.

When I left the special operations community, they were yammering something like "Humans are more important than hardware." Wonder why they would say that, with all the kewl toys snake eaters get to play with? Hmmmm?

A dedicated home defense firearm should be chosen for/fitted to the smallest and least accomplished shooter who might have to use it. A bigger/more accomplished shooter can adapt to the firearm as needed.

A firearm is the LAST line of home defense. Make sure everything else is taken care of as well - harden your home, get an alarm/dog, etc. Make sure everyone USES the outer layers of security always. Your home doesn't have to be Fort Knox - it just has to be a harder target than the houses close by.

Mindset. Skillset. Toolset. IN THAT ORDER. See to it...

And stay safe!

oneounceload
August 1, 2013, 02:35 PM
00 buck will penetrate walls easier than 223, so if penetration is a concern of yours, that might be a factor to consider. The recoil from a 12 is a LOT more than an AR, for your wife, that might be an issue. Reloading during an incident - many find an AR easier to do under stress

YOU need to decide what will work best in YOUR particular situation

9mmfan
August 1, 2013, 02:44 PM
Yes.:cool: Keep your finger off the trigger, tho...
http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp225/9mmfan/1034F934-3457-4B24-89C6-633995E0E3A8-11943-00000903FCC2795A_zps64d2bd84.jpg

yzguy87
August 1, 2013, 02:56 PM
Wow that's old school! Now we have things like forward assist, dust covers, optics mounted in place of the permanent carry handle, quad rails with lots of gizmos and oh yes... let's not forget the new and improved saiga 12 master key:cool:

Dr.Rob
August 1, 2013, 04:08 PM
20 ga. shotgun is no slouch.

jad0110
August 1, 2013, 04:26 PM
Same answer as always - use what you have that you are best at using.

Right. It could be a 12 or 20 ga shotgun, AR, AK, M-1 Carbine, .357 Levergun, etc. Whatever fits in your budget that you can run most intuitively. Until recently, I relied primarily on a Mossberg 590 for home protection. Now it is either a 16" AR or an M-1 carbine. I switched primarily because the AR and M-1 are shorter in overall length, have less kick and allow for easier followup shots for me. But it is a close call for me, inside a home there isn't much out there that is more potent shot-per-shot than a 12 gauge loaded with 00 (basically 9 .33 caliber lead balls per trigger pull).

MaterDei
August 1, 2013, 04:45 PM
Get what you like, you can't go wrong with either.

Texan Scott
August 1, 2013, 04:54 PM
A 12-gauge #4 buck "tactical" load is frequently 21 .23cal pellets (vs. the usual 28 count load).
A STANDARD 20-gauge #3 buck shell (available just about anywhere buckshot is sold) will be 20 .25cal pellets. The difference in DIAMETER is pretty meaningless, but it makes each pellet ~15% heavier - 23 point something grains instead of 20 point something. The velocity is equivalent, and the difference between 20 holes and 21 holes is probably insignificant. For that matter, there's not much difference between 20 holes and 28. Would you miss the extra pellets if you already had 20 in you?

Mas Ayoob has expressed his opinion on this point (12 vs 20 gauge). His book on tactical shotgun is short, well reasoned, well written, and "must read".

Your wife can handle a well-fitted 20-gauge, I'm sure. Don't sell her short. My Walmart has "youth model" Remington 870 (21" bbl, 13" lop) 20 gauges in the case, and I wouldn't feel the least bit underarmed with one.

Deltaboy
August 1, 2013, 09:15 PM
We used to customize 20 gauge 870's with a 2 round extension tube when I moonlighted restoring stocks at a LGS in College.

Cosmoline
August 2, 2013, 12:40 PM
You post in the shotgun forum you'll get shotgun answers. But the AR-15 has advantages for home defense. The rounds are better able to fragment, the platform is more suited to mounting lights and other devices, the recoil is exponentially less allowing for much faster followup shots, the round hits with fantastic effect at close range, and the carbine size AR's are easier to wield in interior spaces. Shotguns are OK, but they're not as good.

Bartholomew Roberts
August 2, 2013, 12:49 PM
I think both are top notch choices for home defense. A lot is going to depend on your individual circumstances and training. In my experience, the AR15 is easiest for novices to make good hits with under time stress.

I'd feel good with either one as long as soft body armor wasn't a concern.

jrdolall
August 2, 2013, 01:35 PM
For a well trained person the AR15 is probably better. For a "novice" or a person that doesn't shoot regularly(which is most people) then the shotgun is going to be easier to use. Either one is going to be more than sufficient for HD. If you go outside the confines of the home then the advantages of the AR really come into play.
I don't know that recoil will play a huge factor in an HD situation for a couple of reasons. The shooter will be pumped up on adrenaline and won't notice the recoil much. You absolutely CANNOT duplicate this with normal civilian training because the adrenaline factor just isn't there. I guess follow up shots are quicker with the AR compare to a pump shotgun but at HD ranges in a confined area I wonder how many follow up shots with a shotgun are likely? I have no facts to base that question on but it seems that follow ups would be limited and, hopefully, the intruder will be either severely wounded or hauling their butt out of the area after the first shot.
Once again, for a person with decent training the AR is probably better but a person with minimal range time is probably better off with a shoot-gun. PS I use a shotgun.

Doug S
August 2, 2013, 06:51 PM
Same answer as always - use what you have that you are best at using.

"Like"

This is as good of an answer as you will find.

DNS
August 2, 2013, 07:14 PM
If your wife's like mine with firearms, the simpler the better. A SxS 20 gauge is what I'd suggest or even a .410 if she's really petite like my daughter and nowadays there's some fantastic .410 defense loads available too.

My wife is simply confused and not interested in my AR.

Fred Fuller
August 3, 2013, 09:37 AM
You absolutely CANNOT duplicate this with normal civilian training because the adrenaline factor just isn't there.

How much 'normal civilian training' have you had, jrdolall? With whom?

Girodin
August 3, 2013, 10:39 AM
For a well trained person the AR15 is probably better. For a "novice" or a person that doesn't shoot regularly(which is most people) then the shotgun is going to be easier to use

On the magpul dynamics shotgun DVD Costa and Haley make the exact opposite assertion. If you are trying to be truly proficient then I'd agree with them that an AR is easier to get good with.

If you are talking about simply being able to pick the gun up and fire it, then there is not a huge difference. I'd still give a reliable AR the nod. It has lower recoil, and more rounds. Keeping a shotgun fed is a skill that takes work to develop.

My experience has been that new shooters have an easier time doing the basics with an AR than with a shotgun.


I think either is up to it if the shooter is. I'd be comfortable with either. I like both and I like to train with both. However, these days my preference is the AR.

The shotgun only has two real advantages IMHO. A quality shotgun can be purchased for less than a quality AR. Although they types of shotguns I prefer are not that much cheaper. I'd rather have a $150 pardner pump and a spent $800 on training than have a $1000 AR and no training. Now many people could buy the AR and get training. I really hate when people act like training and a more expensive fun are per se mutually exclusive. If they are exclusive for someone then I'd look at the cheaper gun.

The second advantage is terminal ballistics. The terminal ballistics of a 5.56 or 300 BLK are nothing to sneeze at, but having seen what a shotgun with appropriate ammo can do at close range, its impressive.

jrdolall
August 3, 2013, 10:43 AM
How much 'normal civilian training' have you had, jrdolall? With whom?
Well I wasn't aware that "normal civilian training" required classes with qualified instructors. Of all the gun owners in the USA how many of them would you say have had extensive training with qualified firearms instructors? 2% MAYBE? The fact is that the vast majority of gun owners that own a gun for self defense or home defense DO NOT have any training beyond what is required to get their permit. Where I live all the training needed to get a CC permit is that you can fill out a form at the Sheriff's office. You don't have to own a gun or prove that you know how to figure out what bullet fits. If you live in AL then you understand.
Most training, if any, is done at the range shooting at paper or steel targets. Straight down an alley at a stationary target while wearing, maybe, eye protection and ear muffs. If you think that "training" prepares anyone for the challenge of dealing with an armed intruder in the middle of the night then that is your call.
My training started 50 years ago shooting squirrels and rabbits for food then moved up to shooting deer and other larger game. I have been "trained" by DEA agents at Fort Benning to shoot steel targets at 1000 yards. I have been "trained" by FBI agents on SD and gone through their courses in Birmingham(even have the badge). I have been "trained" by local gang force agents in Atlanta on how to handle home invasions.
This training, which is far and above what "normal civilians" have, may give me an understanding of what to expect but it I have no illusions that it has prepared me to calmly stand my ground and take multiple shots at an armed intruder. What it has done is given me an understanding of tactics and equipment which is more than most and less than some. Adrenaline is something that can work for us or against us. I played college sports many years back so I understand how an adrenaline rush can affect me but my weapon back then was a helmet and my opponent had the exact same weapon. Shaking and sweating with butterflies while trying to shoot an intruder doesn't seem like the best plan.
On a gun forum, and as a Mod you know this, we are dealing with the small percentage of people that actually have interest in firearms beyond just having one in the closet or for hunting. The other, and far larger, part of the gun owning population isn't really all that interested. They have a gun that they have in a closet and God forbid they actually need to use it one night. I get the idea that a large number of members on this forum, and others, are young kids that have 100% of their firearms "training" while sitting in front of an Xbox.
The OP asked about a weapon that his wife can use. He is fresh out of the military and I assume she is not military. IMO a shotgun is a MUCH better choice for this situation. As we all know, opinions vary.

Girodin
August 3, 2013, 10:56 AM
MO a shotgun is a MUCH better choice for this situation.

Why is the heavier recoiling, more complicated gun, a better choice?

Also when you say shotgun, are you talking about a particular type. Shotguns vary widely and each type comes with its own set of trade offs.

JShirley
August 3, 2013, 10:59 AM
jmr and Fred pegged it.

If you can afford it, the AR is much easier to learn to use well, and is at least as effective with good ammo as a shotgun.

Mr. Dolall, opinions may vary, but an educated opinion is considerably more valuable than an uneducated one.

John

jrdolall
August 3, 2013, 11:18 AM
Mr. Dolall, opinions may vary, but an educated opinion is considerably more valuable than an uneducated one.
Nice one my THR friend! I appreciate your candor.
Please explain how a platform with a removable magazine and normally having an adjustable stock with a mag release button that can cause problems for the novice, which apparently I AM, is easier than a side by side shotgun or even a pump shotgun much less a semi that requires you to take it off safety and then pull the trigger. Take a new shooter out and hand them an AR and see how they react compared to a shotgun. The AR is much more complicated than a basic shotgun for a NOVICE shooter which was my point. Aiming an AR or any rifle takes practice to attain accuracy. Aiming a shotgun and having accuracy at 30 feet is pretty easy.
You are speaking out of the mouth of a qualified gun enthusiast and thinking that all gun owners are should get, or even want, the same knowledge you have. That just ain't gonna happen and you thinking it or wishing it won't make it happen. I am addressing a person that I assume knows little about firearms and I stated my opinion albeit an uneducated opinion. Are all people whose opinion differs from yours "uneducated"? If so then MR Shirley you are not qualified to hold your title.

Fred Fuller
August 3, 2013, 03:10 PM
The specific point I sought to address with my questions was this one:

You absolutely CANNOT duplicate this [adrenalin] with normal civilian training because the adrenaline factor just isn't there.

And as far as I can tell, the questions I asked as a result of reading that statement - How much 'normal civilian training' have you had, jrdolall? With whom? - weren't addressed. So let me try and explain further if I might.

My somewhat limited experience with what I would define as "normal civilian training" has shown that a good instructor, working with students in a normal 'flat range' class, can indeed induce significant amounts of stress. I've seen students in shotgun classes get the galloping shakes bad enough to fumble shotguns shells in a reload, forget to run the bolts in pumpguns, short-stroke, load the wrong ammo when a specific load is called for, and produce all sorts of other fumbles. Seems to me the class environment (essentially performing in public, which is THE most stress inducing thing on the list) gets a certain number of folks all wound up to begin with, and then the increasingly complicated tasks the instructor calls for does the rest.

I'll let someone else who trained with my favorite shotgun Yoda (Louis Awerbuck) offer an opinion:

This was the second Awerbuck course for me, and it still amazes me how the guy can totally fluster bruisers twice his size on the line. He'll start yelling out pretty simple instructions and they'll start flailing. I joked with him about it this time, and he laid it primarily on the fact that a lot of shooters grow used to shooting on their own, or informally with buddies, and just can't hack the sudden pressure. I (occasionally) shoot DCM High-Power, and remember getting the whim-whams the first couple of times until growing used to being barked at and working within strict time limits. If you haven't tried competitive shooting yet, it might prove useful. -- http://www.no-treason.com/archived-site/laissezfirearm/shotgun.htm

Is shooting a class as much pressure as having to fight for your life? No, it isn't. But it's a taste of the poison. In fact the piled higher and deeper folks (aka PhDs) sometimes refer to that sort of thing as stress inoculation:

stress inoculation
Type: Term
Definitions:
1. in clinical psychology, an approach intended to provide patients with cognitive and attitudinal skills that they can use to cope with stress.
(http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=44758)

"Cognitive and attitudinal skills." Gee. Sounds just like what I learned in gun skool...

The (normal civilian) defensive firearms training industry is well aware of the concept of stress inoculation, and applies it deliberately. For instance, see the article at http://www.bluesheepdog.com/improve-department-firearms-training/ .

JShirley
August 3, 2013, 03:39 PM
Mr. Dolall,


I was specifically addressing your "opinions may vary", with no slight expressed or implied. That you were insulted has nothing to do with me.

I remember being much younger, and beginning to learn to shoot. A semiautomatic with very little recoil was much easier than a heavily recoiling manually operated shotgun. I've seen fairly skilled shotgun shooters screw up during relatively mild stress.

We are expected to believe that the recessed magazine is easier to screw up than operating a pump and slide release? I have seen LOTS of people with no experience become proficient with the M16 in a matter of weeks (in terms of actual pure training and practice, probably about 25 hours). That's soup-to-nuts, starting with no experience and ending by qualifying on pop-up targets. There is no way they would have reached an equivalent skill level in that time with a pump shotgun.

John

Girodin
August 3, 2013, 04:18 PM
Take a new shooter out and hand them an AR and see how they react compared to a shotgun.

I've not only done this but I've also seen newer and experienced shooters in training classes for each. My experience has been shotguns are harder to get to a competent level with.

ith a mag release button that can cause problems for the novice, which apparently I AM, is easier than a side by side shotgun or even a pump shotgun much less a semi that requires you to take it off safety and then pull the trigger.

I wouldn't store lots of kinds of shotguns with a road chambered. Many, unlike an AR, are not drop safe. If you are storing a gun in a codition that simply requires the shooter to disengage the safety and then fire an AR really is not any harder than side by side or a pump. A side by side has a lever that can open it. That is the equivalent of a mag release button. Pumps have levers to open the action. With a SXS if you don't get the job done in two (and of course someone so inexperienced with firearms they cannot use an AR is never going to miss) you are dealing with a real load. With an AR you have 28 more rounds. With pump guns you have to manually cycle it each shot. Go to a three gun match and watch how many folks with screw that up under stress. A semi auto (like a Benelli M2 or something with proven reliability) is probably the easiest to learn to use. However, you still have to get that first shell in, disengage the safety and then you have 4-8 shots and then you have to know how to keep it fed.

If you are just counting on the user being able to pick it up, work the safety and then pull the trigger until empty then I'm not sure any of them are much harder or easier. An AR will let you go longer before you have to do something. My experience is an AR is much easier for novices to shoot because it has virtually non existent recoil. A light SxS coach gun firing slug and bucks on the other hand does not. A Benelli inertia gun also has stout recoil for a novice or smaller framed person. The stout recoil makes a follow up (and you only have one with that SxS) much more difficult.

Any kind of gun is prone to operator error if the person doesn't know how to use it. ARs are in my experience, and that of people that teach folks for a living, are much easier to get people competent with than lots of kinds of shotguns.

Fiv3r
August 3, 2013, 04:32 PM
I absolutely adore my Ithaca 37, and it's my general purpose home defense firearm because I am more familiar with the pump platform.
That said, short of the extremely concussive and sharp report of the .223, the AR just seems to do stuff better.
In my current house, OP isn't that big of an issue. The "shooting gallery" is opposite of the rooms my wife, daughter, and I sleep in. The new house I am moving to will have my daughter at the far end of the hall from me and my gun. I'm thinking my AR is going to become my go-to.

Potatohead
August 3, 2013, 04:47 PM
I was specifically addressing your "opinions may vary", with no slight expressed or implied. That you were insulted has nothing to do with me.

I thought the "uneducated" part was a little insulting...but who knows, I'm probably a little to "thin-skinned"..

I'm always pulling for the underdog, so I thought I'd stick my neck out out on this one.. Regrettably so probably:)

jrdolall
August 3, 2013, 06:13 PM
Guys I merely stated my OPINION in regard to the OP. I was asked by a moderator what my experience level was and I answered.
I was then basically attacked by an administrator for, once again, expressing an OPINION based on the original premise of the post. Now you may think that implying that someone is "uneducated" is not a slight but I would argue that most people will take umbrage with that implication. Add to that the FACT that you have absolutely no idea of my education level other than what I posted as my "training" with firearms in SD, HD and other situations and I would say that you certainly meant it as a slight or you completely worded your statement incorrectly.

I stand by my original opinion. An untrained person in a high stress situation will do better with a shotgun than with an AR. Discussing how well people will do after some moderate training is irrelevant because, as I stated, a person with training may be better off with an AR. I have training. I have more training than MOST. I have watched people screw up in mildly stressful training exercises using revolvers and just about everything imaginable including ARs and shotguns so the fact that people can drop the ball with a pump is not news to me. Heck I have done it while dove hunting on more than one occasion.
I keep a shotgun for HD as well as a revolver and both are ready to roll. I have an AR in the safe a few feet from my bed as well as a couple of other guns with loaded mags in case it gets real crazy and I need the extra firepower. Never having dealt with the stress I just hope I can remember the combination.
The OP asked for an opinion based on his circumstances and I gave my opinion based on those. There is no "correct" answer in this type of situation any more than there is one about the best caliber for SD. Attacking (yes I said attacking) my opinions is far from High Road and I would expect more from the people that run the forum. If you go back and read my post you will see that I was in no way argumentative but merely stated my feelings on the subject. The moderators then decided to turn the thread into a discussion of my training and education.
Your house your rules.

nathan
August 3, 2013, 06:24 PM
Either will do fine as long you practice which you prefer and can hit your targets 7 yds away . Most home encounters are closer than that . Remember shoot to kill but know what s behind the target. Thats the golden rule in gunfighting. If you can hit someone, then dont shoot.

JShirley
August 3, 2013, 07:10 PM
Mr. Dolall, you were not attacked. You said "opinions may vary". I said "opinions may vary vary, but an educated opinion is more valuable". You can make up stories about that statement being about you, but it's not: it's about the absolutely idiotic, commonly expressed idea that all opinions are equal.

John

amd6547
August 3, 2013, 07:39 PM
I am of two minds on the subject of the OP. I have, at different times relied on a carbine or a shotgun as my home defense long arm.
Currently, my long arm of choice is a Beretta 12ga semi auto shotgun, it is the weapon which is loaded and handy.
However, I have been shooting for a lot of years, and handling the recoil of a 12ga, and handling it's manual of arms is no problem.
A carbine is much easier to learn, in my opinion. It is also shorter and easier to handle indoors. I also appreciate the carbines ability to provide pinpoint accuracy.
While many tout the carbines large mag capacity, I am comfortable with eight rounds in the shotgun...and in the carbine, I generally use smaller cap mags...I have relied upon an M1 carbine with a 15rd mag, when reliable 30rd mags are handy...in my AR, I prefer the short 20rd mag. And, in my 5.45 Kalash, I use a short 10rd mag.
My daughters boyfriend/fiancÚ had never fired a firearm in his life. I took him to the range and had him shooting an AR with great proficiency and accuracy in no time at all.
In fact, the very first centerifre rifle I ever fired was an M16A1 at Camp Perry.

jrdolall
August 3, 2013, 08:48 PM
.in my AR, I prefer the short 20rd mag.
Same here. I rarely use the 30 rounders anymore. I started using the shorter mags because they fit in my shooting vice and started liking them better.

jrdolall
August 3, 2013, 08:50 PM
Mr. Dolall, opinions may vary, but an educated opinion is considerably more valuable than an uneducated one.
Sorry Jshirley but this is your actual quote. Now you can dodge all you want but that comment was directed at me, Mr. Dolall, and the inference I draw is that you consider my opinion to be "an uneducated one". If I somehow misread your statement then I apologize.
Once again, your house your rules.

JShirley
August 3, 2013, 11:44 PM
You made a statement. I addressed that statement. Dodge what? If I meant to say, "your opinion is uneducated", that's what I would have said.

Girodin
August 4, 2013, 12:23 AM
Guys I merely stated my OPINION in regard to the OP.

You are entitled to your opinion. That doesn't mean it is beyond reproach. Or that someone else is in the wrong for simply stating why they disagree with it. In fact, that is the basic paradigm of a discussion board like this one.

PabloJ
August 4, 2013, 03:36 AM
Came across this article on the shotgun vs ar - shotgun vs AR for home defense (http://westernshootingjournal.com/shotgun/home-defense-shotgun-tactics-2/)

I've carried both while in the military, but favored more of the SG in the urban setting.

Wanted to find out what you all think about this?

Now that I'm out and want to have my own shotgun. But gotta find something that my wife can handle as well.

Any suggestions?
Quite surprisingly 2&3/4" 20ga slugs and BK shot are still available. Grail gun would be old vintage 20ga Ithaca 37 'Deerslayer' with smoothbore barrel. Make mine 25" I'm very fond of small birdee hunting.

tarosean
August 4, 2013, 03:44 AM
Pump shotgun... cause you know that just the mere racking of one purportedly sends criminals running for the hills... :evil:

In all seriousness. Have your significant other try them both in all sizes and flavors and get her input. If she is scared of it she wont use it....

Fiv3r
August 4, 2013, 09:11 AM
I can't speak for any one else here in regards to their training and intended demeanor, but having known John Shirley through various forums over the last decade+, I can promise you that he does not mince words nor have I ever witnessed anything close to a personal attack online. When I think of a way to describe John, "even keeled" and "patient to a fault" are some terms that spring to mind. Also, "wise beyond his years".
I don't mean to stir up any trouble, nor does Mr. Shirley need MY paltry endorsement. I just think that it well worth pointing out that his opinion on the matter of firearms use and tactics is indeed a very educated one. With me, and that's obviously just a very personal opinion, John's insight on such things will always care a lot of weight.

Regarding the topic at hand, I am still very much in the "run what ya brung" camp. I think having a a firearm that you are very very familiar with trumps using the "best" tool for the job. As I have said earlier, I'm a pump gun guy. That is based on my use history and the layout of my house.

My new residence is making rethink my tactical plans. Where at the current home access to my family by an intruder is funnelled so that would have to go through me, my new home is going to have them going past my daughter's room first. Based on the layout, I think an AR will be more fitting to my needs regarding speed, mobility, and OP issues.

rbernie
August 4, 2013, 09:45 AM
I have hunted game on foot in the great outdoors with the AR platform for more than a decade. It's great for relatively static shots at targets of varying distances. I've also hunted on foot with a shotgun for a considerable period of time. It's great for fast snap shots at close in and quick moving targets.

The differences in ergonomics for each platform help define what they're best at and what they're not optimized for.

For HD, I'll take the shotgun. For a less physically constrained environment, I'll take the AR.

ArchAngelCD
August 5, 2013, 03:16 AM
I keep a short barrel Mossberg 500 next to my bed loaded with #4 Buckshot. That works for me.

Kuyong_Chuin
August 5, 2013, 04:49 AM
Came across this article on the shotgun vs ar - shotgun vs AR for home defense (http://westernshootingjournal.com/shotgun/home-defense-shotgun-tactics-2/)

I've carried both while in the military, but favored more of the SG in the urban setting.

Wanted to find out what you all think about this?

Now that I'm out and want to have my own shotgun. But gotta find something that my wife can handle as well.

Any suggestions?
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/GUN-981 Remington 870 clone $189.00

Or if you want to kind of combined the two you can try a RAAC MKA-1919-xn Semi Auto Shotgun 12 Gauge 19.7" Barrel Two 5 Round Magazines, Polymer AR-15 Style Stock $619.00
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/GUN-1919

Sheepdog1968
August 5, 2013, 11:30 AM
To Fred Fuller's point. Loui Awerbuck classes do add some stress into what you are doing. He's even said at the beginning of one class he will mess with your mind. I like his classes a lot. Other classes I've taken have from other instructors do other things to add stress such as a timed exam. I know one instructor who on an indoor range does a simple advancing of targets with the lights out and you behind barricades paired up with a partner that is fun but stressful. In fact, in one of these classes I couldn't figure out why my shotgun stopped working. I transitioned to a pistol to finish the drill. Turned out I short stoked my pump. I really can't recall short stroking my pump in a decade or more prior to,that. It was obvious after the drill was over but not during. The simulated stress worked.

jrdolall
August 5, 2013, 12:40 PM
Stress is a great equalizer in a lot of situations. Who hasn't forgotten to work the bolt of their gun after shooting an animal? I know I have.
To my initial point I just don't think you can simulate the stress level of an actual home invasion. You can't simulate hitting a live pitcher with a batting machine. You can't simulate an actual football game during scrimmage. Having never been in the military I don't think you can prepare a soldier for actual combat until he sees that the people on the other end are trying to kill him. I know they go through a lot of training in order to prepare them in the best way possible for what they may experience.
Practice makes perfect is an old saying that few adhere to any more. I have spent months on a football field and baseball field as a player and coach trying to prepare for game day. There is no substitute for practice but, until you stand in the box with a guy 60 feet away throwing BBs at you, you ain't ready.

javjacob
August 5, 2013, 02:08 PM
For home defense I have a Mossberg 500 12 ga sitting under the bed loaded with 00 buck. Its what I have and I feel safe with it. I highly doubt anyone is going to have any fight left in them after eating 00buck at close range. 00buck is no slouch.
I also have a ruger single six revolver, it has 2 cylinders one for 22LR and one for 22mag. I keep in by my nightstand under the bed also for a back up. sure its just a 22 but its the only hand gun I have. though I shouldn't ever have to use it for HD because the 12 ga is getting grabbed first.

Stevie-Ray
August 5, 2013, 09:51 PM
Prefer my AR while up north, but have both.

mac66
August 6, 2013, 04:13 PM
I have ARs and like them a lot. However a shotgun always has been and always will be a good choice for home defense. The mere presence of a gun ends most problems and the chance of getting into any type of extended gun battle inside your house (unless you are running a drug house) is slim and none.

So yeah, a shotgun is good to go IMO. If need be you use your shotgun to get to your AR when the zombie, mutant, commie, biker hoards invade from outer space.

200Apples
August 6, 2013, 08:50 PM
.
I have for years resisted the AR. Up to this very point in time, I have no "black" guns save for my Springfield 1911 Loaded parkerized; all my stuff's blue steel and walnut.

I'm reading "The Farnam Method of Defensive Shotgun and Rifle Shooting"... and he thinks we should ALL have AR's, too.

:D

I'm looking at a LMT. It's a hefty chunk-O-change. Kinda wondering how I'm going to afford 5.56 ammo afterward. lol. (meanwhile, I'm well-stocked in .45ACP, 7.62 for my bolt-action carbine and in variety of 12 ga shotshells for my four shotguns... hee!)

JSH1
August 6, 2013, 10:38 PM
If I was going to buy a gun specifically for home defense it would be a 20 ga side x side coach gun. We currently use a .410 single shot though I have a 12 ga Mossberg 500 available as well. The .410 is the only gun in the house that is loaded.

Deltaboy
August 6, 2013, 10:44 PM
I use the shotgun inside and the 30/30 for the rest .

cfullgraf
August 6, 2013, 11:53 PM
My wife and I are working on a Rem 870 12 ga for a barn gun. Lots of furry 4 legged critters. It has a collapsable stock so that we can quickly adjust it for the two if us. We will have a range of ammunition available for the necessay task at hand

For the house, I have a 300 BLK AR but I would feel well protected with the 870 in the house.

stressed
August 7, 2013, 12:01 AM
IMO 12 gauge with #1 buck for indoor defense.

shockwave
August 7, 2013, 12:02 AM
Have to go with the shotgun. An AR will send a powerful round downrange. Follow-up rounds will be accurate and devastating. Yes, you can make a good case for the AR. Same for the AK. There's a reason gangbangers like these guns. They are good.

The shotgun, pump or auto, will blow a fist-sized hole through their target. They shoot something like 9 or more rounds of .380 or better with a single shot. if they are slightly off-target they still cause massive trauma.

Racking the slide. The huge barrel. The presentation. No assailant is going to approach a shotgun in a cavalier manner. The AR or AK will also have some visual deterrent capacity - yes, it will. But not like the shotgun.

Shotgun says one or two hits, you're DOA. Oh yeah, you can defend your home very well with an AR or AK platform, no doubt. If you go that way, power to you. Not saying you are under-armed. But the shotgun, well, that's just the most massive firepower you can command. There's nothing stronger.

Sheepdog1968
August 7, 2013, 12:33 AM
They are both great choices. Which one are you likely to be more comfortable with. Training and lots of practice are what's most important.

RX-178
August 7, 2013, 04:32 AM
Well, in my opinion, an AR-15 rifle is a better performing home defense choice than a shotgun. It's got the stopping power, and it has almost effortless follow-up shots in comparison, as well as higher capacity and faster reloads.

Now an AR-15 is probably going to run you at least $600, and more likely $800 and above.

A pump action 12ga shotgun can go for $200 or even less.

The AR-15 has better performance, but I don't really feel that it has $600 worth of better performance. I generally recommend the shotgun on the basis of cost-effectiveness vs. the more expensive AR.

Sauer Grapes
August 7, 2013, 04:49 PM
I shoot a lot of shotguns at clay targets. Unless a clay target is breaking into my house some night, I'd just as well have my handgun.

ErieLurker
August 7, 2013, 07:56 PM
Have a reasonable (though now dated) amount of experience with the AR after taking the Queen's guinea, but on the other hand, am still a shotgun novice. The AR is certainly easy to train to a decent standard, regardless of physical differences, and the only rifle that ever handled as well or perhaps better in my hands than the C7 service rifle was the Win 94.

Not entirely convinced that the 5.56 round is quite the man-stopper that the 7.62 is considered to be (with FMJ anyway). But I do find it suggestive that SF continued procurement of SCAR-H after ending further purchases of SCAR-L. Or perhaps they simply looked into a different 5.56 platform (such as Ithaca Tactical-M), and the SCAR experience reflects little or nothing on the matter of 5.56 vs 7.62?

In any case, few things handle like an AR.

justice06rr
August 7, 2013, 09:44 PM
Now that I'm out and want to have my own shotgun. But gotta find something that my wife can handle as well.

Any suggestions?

The top 2 choices for shotty's are the Mossberg500 and Remington870.

Pick whichever one you like and which one you think your wife can handle. They are very similar in operation (with a few exceptions like safety lever).

Zach S
August 8, 2013, 01:08 AM
I used a shotgun for years. My first wife found it to be to heavy and too long to shoulder, even with the relatively short 12.5" LOP. She could barely reach the fore end so she short stroke it one way or the other. And even with the low-recoil LE132, she found it to be brutal...

So we switched to the AR15, and that's been my primary HD gun since.

javjacob
August 8, 2013, 01:17 PM
so ar15 for chicks and 12ga for real men? seems to be how it comes off. I have never shot a ar15 and don't really understand the big deal about them. of course I haven't shot one so I cant totally understand... that's why Im asking. I would take the 7.62X39 over the 223 any day for defense. so why not sks/ak47 vs 12ga? the 12ga is a very economical gun, its cheap to buy and own and can be used for just about anything. the ar15 is just ridiculously expensive and what all is it actually good for? just seems like a very low "bang for the buck" gun so I don't understand why some people are so crazy about them

Fiv3r
August 8, 2013, 06:10 PM
so ar15 for chicks and 12ga for real men? seems to be how it comes off. I have never shot a ar15 and don't really understand the big deal about them. of course I haven't shot one so I cant totally understand... that's why Im asking. I would take the 7.62X39 over the 223 any day for defense. so why not sks/ak47 vs 12ga? the 12ga is a very economical gun, its cheap to buy and own and can be used for just about anything. the ar15 is just ridiculously expensive and what all is it actually good for? just seems like a very low "bang for the buck" gun so I don't understand why some people are so crazy about them

I'm going to take a crack at this as I A)am not a fanboy of either platform and B) actually own both platforms.

You've obviously glossed over every other "pro" to the AR short of it being easier for smaller stature people to handle. The biggies:


It's a lightweight and easy to maneuver long arm. It allows you bring the gun into action quickly and easily.
The 5.56 is no slouch with the right ammo. It's been used pretty effectively for about half a century to shoot bad guys dead.
The AK is a fine gun, but not as modular as the AR. If you want to put a light on a 47, you might want to invest in a nice high grade duct tape.
The .223/5.56 is one of if not THE most popular rifle cartridge on the shelves, meaning it comes in every flavor of fmj plinker to fragmenting rounds to prevent over penetration. The 7.62 has a few variations, but most of the time if you are chucking lead out of an AK, you're more interested in throwing that big ol' bullet out there over the small pill of the .223. That 123gr bullet might end up in a loved ones bedroom.


The 12 gauge is just fine for many, many situations. If you're an avid shotgunner and that's what you're comfortable with, go for it. No one is going to talk you down for choosing one of the most popular HD weapon platforms since...well, since we started stuffing lead shot down a tube packed over black powder. However, dismissing the AR as a valid HD gun is just silly. What it lacks in upclose devastation, it more than makes up for in firepower, precision, accuracy, reduced recoil, and low chance of over penetration.

I've got both. I'd be happy to use either. However, as house layouts change, so sometimes should our mindset. I've got an Ithaca 37 stoked with buck in my closet right now. The house I am moving to, I will be firing TOWARD my daughter's room and not PAST it. I'm seriously contemplating getting a lot more trigger time on the AR simply because I need to factor this in as a valid variable should I need to fire my HD gun.

loose noose
August 8, 2013, 10:52 PM
Due to the stress factor involved in any armed encounter, (Vietnam, and a number of years as a Police Officer involved in three actual shootings) I can say you do revert to your training.

Myself, I'm not worried, however my wife is extremely thin and small of stature. I went and put Pachmyer grips on my Colt Detective Special so it would reduce recoil, that didn't help, as she still flinched every time she went to fire the gun. Same as the AR-15s she had a problem getting accustomed to it.

Well the .410 shotgun (Mossberg 500) came into play, and low and behold she could shoot that from the hip and activate the slide with precision. I took out the shell reducer and it will hold 6 rounds of triple ought buck, or the Winchester PDX1 410 Defender.

It took her a short time to get used to it, but now I know she can definitely protect herself when I'm away. Further she enjoys shooting it, and plans on hunting dove with me this year.

RainDodger
August 9, 2013, 11:00 AM
My house is rural. No close neighbors, no kids. I keep a 12 ga. 870 next to my bed with a gun sock over the muzzle to keep the spiders out. It's loaded with 00 Buck, which I know will go right through any wall in my house and handily whack the bad guy who's trying to stay out of harm's way, after he realized I have a shotgun in my hands.

As a former federal LE Special Agent, I trained with an 870, with 00 Buck and I know precisely what it will do. The ARs are in the safe with every other firearm - at least they were before I lost them all in my recent boating accident. That one 870 that I still have though... it does protect the property just fine.

SwissArmyDad
August 9, 2013, 11:40 AM
Neither. XD9 5" with a TLR-1.

I'm very good with it, reloads are lightning fast and it keeps one hand free while still completely keeping the gun ready/under control.
I do have an AR, but nonetheless I feel very well armed with my XD, 5 mags available, and with a ruger LCR as backup, with 2 speedstrips.

And all of it fits in/on a pair of jeans and a belt for all day wear.

Deer_Freak
August 9, 2013, 02:59 PM
You can induce a good deal of stress in civilian training. Anyone that has shot an IDPA match will agree with me. Just the beep of the timer scrambles most peoples brain in their first few matches. I would take it a step further and say that any competition induces stress.

This is more on topic. If you want your wife to have fun while learning to use a shotgun you will need two shotguns. One light gauge shotgun for her to use in shotgun sports and a 12 ga with a 12" LOP stock for actual self defense. I know that some women handle a 12 ga just as good as men. But you can bet her first shotgun wasn't a 12 ga.

Pumps work well for most men with a little practice. Women's arms are not long enough to handle the forestock. Women either need a semi auto or a double barrel.

PoserHoser
August 9, 2013, 04:06 PM
I own both a 12 gauge Benellli Snt and a plain jane M4 style carbine. The shotgun is used for inside and the AR is used to protect outside. While the AR is quicker to shoot accurately and holds more ammo. I still prefer the shotgun for its lethality. I want to end the fight as quickly as possible at close range. The AR 15 is more user friendly, low recoil, and has a drop safety. The shotgun is a better "stopper" and quality pumps need little maitenance. Either are excellent choices it just comes down to which you feel most comfortable with.

JPG19
August 9, 2013, 04:26 PM
Deleted. I hadn't read the full thread and didn't realize this topic has already been beaten to death.

JPG19
August 9, 2013, 04:42 PM
Have to go with the shotgun. An AR will send a powerful round downrange. Follow-up rounds will be accurate and devastating. Yes, you can make a good case for the AR. Same for the AK. There's a reason gangbangers like these guns. They are good.

The shotgun, pump or auto, will blow a fist-sized hole through their target. They shoot something like 9 or more rounds of .380 or better with a single shot. if they are slightly off-target they still cause massive trauma.

Racking the slide. The huge barrel. The presentation. No assailant is going to approach a shotgun in a cavalier manner. The AR or AK will also have some visual deterrent capacity - yes, it will. But not like the shotgun.

Shotgun says one or two hits, you're DOA. Oh yeah, you can defend your home very well with an AR or AK platform, no doubt. If you go that way, power to you. Not saying you are under-armed. But the shotgun, well, that's just the most massive firepower you can command. There's nothing stronger.
I can't disagree anymore. The silouhette of an AR is much more intimidating to me than a shotgun. To each his own. I'd likely run from either.

RJTravel
August 9, 2013, 06:45 PM
I've quickly looked at the many responses with much interest since I had the same question. Those who favor the AR cite the compact size, light weight, and round capacity. Those who favor the shotgun cite the much more devastating saucer-size hole. It would seem it's a standoff - but for me my choice offers the compactness of the AR coupled with the deadly certainly of buckshot. I just measured my cut-down HD shotgun. It is exactly 32" from muzzle to butt and weighs in 4 pounds. Hard to match with an AR. Kicks like the dickens, but I've been in more than one life-threatning situation and I'm pretty sure that won't be noticed. It actually works well with its cylinder bore for other purposes - I've taken a number of grouse, and any hand-thrown clay is instant smoke. For me I don't think any AR can match it for close-in use.
Richard

Deer_Freak
August 9, 2013, 09:57 PM
I've quickly looked at the many responses with much interest since I had the same question. Those who favor the AR cite the compact size, light weight, and round capacity. Those who favor the shotgun cite the much more devastating saucer-size hole. It would seem it's a standoff - but for me my choice offers the compactness of the AR coupled with the deadly certainly of buckshot. I just measured my cut-down HD shotgun. It is exactly 32" from muzzle to butt and weighs in 4 pounds. Hard to match with an AR. Kicks like the dickens, but I've been in more than one life-threatning situation and I'm pretty sure that won't be noticed. It actually works well with its cylinder bore for other purposes - I've taken a number of grouse, and any hand-thrown clay is instant smoke. For me I don't think any AR can match it for close-in use.
Richard
Hell, my shotgun holds 4 lb of buckshot. I am really exaggerating. I don't know how much the ammo weighs but it makes the gun much heavier. I load it with seven 3" 00 buck and three 2 3/4" slugs. Yes, the cylinder choke will do well shooting skeet. I haven't tried my HD gun on birds. Your gun is supposed to be plugged to 3 rounds for birds. Not to mention I have a much better sight plane with a 28" vent rib barrel.

PedalBiker
August 9, 2013, 11:14 PM
I don't have an AR or an AK. It's really cheap to buy an 18" IC choked barrel for your shotgun. I have the shotgun for rabbits, the short barrel is a nice bonus. I like the Remington reduced recoil 00 buck, though over penetration is a real risk.

I've mostly given up on a long guns for HD. I have a fully loaded CZ-75 with a laser and night sights in a quick to open lock box. When in the house I often times have a SR9c with laser on my hip.

For me quick access and secure storage trump raw power. My wife also keeps Raid handy (we have a yellow jacket problem). So far we've used several cans of Raid on the wasps. Of course the average house has a lot of effective weapons scattered around. Be open minded, the kitchen is usually particularly well stocked and a ball bat can come in quite handy as well.

I read the American Rifleman magazine Armed Citizen section. It's amazing how often people successfully use stuff for self defense we'd never recommend.

Cokeman
August 9, 2013, 11:37 PM
I've quickly looked at the many responses with much interest since I had the same question. Those who favor the AR cite the compact size, light weight, and round capacity. Those who favor the shotgun cite the much more devastating saucer-size hole. It would seem it's a standoff - but for me my choice offers the compactness of the AR coupled with the deadly certainly of buckshot. I just measured my cut-down HD shotgun. It is exactly 32" from muzzle to butt and weighs in 4 pounds. Hard to match with an AR. Kicks like the dickens, but I've been in more than one life-threatning situation and I'm pretty sure that won't be noticed. It actually works well with its cylinder bore for other purposes - I've taken a number of grouse, and any hand-thrown clay is instant smoke. For me I don't think any AR can match it for close-in use.
Richard

We need to see that.

Dirty Bob
August 9, 2013, 11:58 PM
For some urban/suburban dwellers, there may be a skeet or trap range nearby, but no close location for rifle shooting. In this regard, the shotgun may offer more practice, and therefore be more familiar to the defender. I have opportunities to shoot my Mossberg twice a week, if I could afford the ammo, but not nearly as many chances to shoot a rifle.

I've chosen a shotgun, and I'm totally comfortable with it.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

Girodin
August 10, 2013, 12:03 AM
The AK is a fine gun, but not as modular as the AR. If you want to put a light on a 47, you might want to invest in a nice high grade duct tape.

Well, in as much as I own shotguns, multiple ARs, and a number of AKs, I'm going to take a crack at this. There are plenty of ways to mount a light on an AK. There are even plenty of good well proven ways.

shockwave
August 10, 2013, 07:24 AM
Skill doesn't come in a box or a blister pack.

Well looky here. I just got a new sig line.

Fiv3r
August 10, 2013, 09:43 AM
Well, in as much as I own shotguns, multiple ARs, and a number of AKs, I'm going to take a crack at this. There are plenty of ways to mount a light on an AK. There are even plenty of good well proven ways.
My point was the poster did not seem to see the merits of having an AR and they were a waste of money. It may be erroneous postulating on my part, but I figured he may be the type to find a barebones AK "good enough" and not put the money into such things as attached flashlights. My response was also fairly tongue in cheek;) Duct tape solves a lot of issues, but I am aware that they do make modular accessories for the AK. It's just that most people that hail them as better that AR platform are too busy throwing them in the mud to accessorize them;) Again, another tease on my part.

Shogun, AR, or AK. They all make fine, fine weapons in the hands of those who know how to use them.

BigBore44
August 10, 2013, 09:51 AM
Most engagements are less than 15 feet. I encourage ANYONE to try this experiment:
Take a fairly new shooter to the range. Take an AR and a 12 or 20 gauge. Give them one round in each weapon. Set silhouette up at 15 feet. Give the shooter 3 seconds to pick up each weapon and deliver one shot, center mass. Then count the number, and size of the holes on target. Every hole is a wound channel. Every wound channel in a vital is a kill. Winner? Shotgun.

Now lets say you have 2 in the tube and 1 in the chamber on your 12 gauge. And you have an AR with a 20 round magazine. Is someone really going to tell me they they can pull the trigger on an AR 20 times before I can pull it 3? Well lets say you can pull it in the same amount of time. You have 20 rounds on target. I have 27. You pulled 20 times. I pulled 3. Winner again? Shotgun.

Now lets talk worst case and both guns suffer catastrophic malfunctions after the first shot. Both first shots were decent since the shooter is under extreme duress. Which gun has the better chance of having ended the threat after only one shot? Shotgun wins again.

Which gun is more mobile? Winner AR. But I've never heard of a SD class that taught you to go looking for the bad guy.

Which gun is easier to get on target in low light situations? Winner again, Shotgun. Just look down the barrel and pull the trigger. Aiming isn't a complete necessity. It's called a scatter gun for a reason.

Over penetration? Winner (or loser depending) Shotgun.

Under powered? Neither.

What about having to shoot through a wall to get to the bad guy though? Frangible vs Lead. Winner? Lead.

Recoil? Winner AR no question. But how many people have you read about that complained that a gun kicked to hard when they were in a life or death situation?

Inside I just don't see how it gets better than a shotgun for putting BG's on the ground at the average distance of engagements.

Tommy Van Alen
August 10, 2013, 10:14 AM
Remington makes or used to make this TAC 8 double aught buckshot load. It has alot of buffer added to it, but because it is 8 pellets instead of the usual 9, it actually patterned tighter. The best though is that Federal Flite Control Wad. That stuff patterns TIGHT! :what:

I'd rather go with the shotgun instead of the AR because any buckshot or low recoil slugs will work in a pump and that kind of ammo is more available to me rather than the uber expensive .223 self defense ammo.

Maybe this was mentioned already, but like that thread on using handloads/reloads in your night stand gun, I think the prosecutor would and could use that "EEEkkk... He used that evil black rifle....He had bad intent in his heart...He was looking for a fight...." as leverage against to convince a jury of whatever.

JShirley
August 10, 2013, 10:36 AM
BigBore, you're making the assumption that the additional holes from a short-range shotgun equate to much more effectiveness. I don't think that's true. The wound inflicted by good .223 ammunition at close range is devastating.

John

Sam Cade
August 10, 2013, 10:51 AM
Aiming isn't a complete necessity. It's called a scatter gun for a reason.

:scrutiny:

What is the longest range that you could engage at in your home?

How large of a pattern does your shotgun throw at that range?

JPG19
August 10, 2013, 10:55 AM
Most engagements are less than 15 feet. I encourage ANYONE to try this experiment:
Take a fairly new shooter to the range. Take an AR and a 12 or 20 gauge. Give them one round in each weapon. Set silhouette up at 15 feet. Give the shooter 3 seconds to pick up each weapon and deliver one shot, center mass. Then count the number, and size of the holes on target. Every hole is a wound channel. Every wound channel in a vital is a kill. Winner? Shotgun.

Now lets say you have 2 in the tube and 1 in the chamber on your 12 gauge. And you have an AR with a 20 round magazine. Is someone really going to tell me they they can pull the trigger on an AR 20 times before I can pull it 3? Well lets say you can pull it in the same amount of time. You have 20 rounds on target. I have 27. You pulled 20 times. I pulled 3. Winner again? Shotgun.

Now lets talk worst case and both guns suffer catastrophic malfunctions after the first shot. Both first shots were decent since the shooter is under extreme duress. Which gun has the better chance of having ended the threat after only one shot? Shotgun wins again.

Which gun is more mobile? Winner AR. But I've never heard of a SD class that taught you to go looking for the bad guy.

Which gun is easier to get on target in low light situations? Winner again, Shotgun. Just look down the barrel and pull the trigger. Aiming isn't a complete necessity. It's called a scatter gun for a reason.

Over penetration? Winner (or loser depending) Shotgun.

Under powered? Neither.

What about having to shoot through a wall to get to the bad guy though? Frangible vs Lead. Winner? Lead.

Recoil? Winner AR no question. But how many people have you read about that complained that a gun kicked to hard when they were in a life or death situation?

Inside I just don't see how it gets better than a shotgun for putting BG's on the ground at the average distance of engagements.
There are so many unfounded assumptions in this post, it makes my head hurt. By your logic, birdshot would be yet an even better choice, as it offers even more wound channels than the others. However, if you have ever killed anything with a .223/5.56 (as I have multiple times [deer and coyotes]) then you would know just how devastating this round is. The size of the wound channel and the amount of tissue that is shredded by the round is just astonishing.

Either gun works well, why so many feel they must justify to others which one they prefer is beyond me. Choose what you are most effective and comfortable with. All I'm saying is that there's a reason the best military in the world uses the 5.56x45mm round, even in urban combat situations. Because they have done more research and investigations into which weapons to use, I generally follow their lead. 9mm? Check. AR15? Check. Training and support gear? Check. OR, I could use Google and hope that I'm reading accurate information. Shotguns are fine home defense weapons, and I would be more than happy to grab one in a HD situation. I just can't stand when people make so many blanket statements, that's all.

-James

p.s. Shooting a target that you can't see THROUGH a wall is just about the dumbest suggestion I've heard yet. Someone told me something one time about being aware of what you're shooting and what's beyond it, but I can't remember who...

Jenrick
August 10, 2013, 04:52 PM
BigBore: I'm not going to address all your points as I do agree with some of them.

Take a fairly new shooter to the range. Take an AR and a 12 or 20 gauge. Give them one round in each weapon. Set silhouette up at 15 feet. Give the shooter 3 seconds to pick up each weapon and deliver one shot, center mass.

If you haven't shown the new shooter how to take the safety off or load the chamber then neither weapon system will get a round off. If you give them a loaded weapon with one in the chamber and safety off, the the amount of time to fire either will probably be similar. Using a ghost ring on either weapon both will probably have good hits. Using a bead on the shotgun, and they'll probably strike high.

Then count the number, and size of the holes on target. Every hole is a wound channel. Every wound channel in a vital is a kill. Winner? Shotgun.

Assuming you are using expanding rather then fragmenting 5.56 ammo, and good high quality #1-000 buck then I'd agree with you. However even purpose designed expanding 5.56 ammo can still fragment which will create numerous wound channels, usually in excess of what a shot shell carries in payload.

Now lets say you have 2 in the tube and 1 in the chamber on your 12 gauge. And you have an AR with a 20 round magazine. Is someone really going to tell me they they can pull the trigger on an AR 20 times before I can pull it 3?


You maybe not, I have no clue how fast you can run a shotgun. The vast majority of new shooters however, can't even dry cycle a pump faster them they can pull the trigger 20 times on an AR firing actual rounds. Throw in recoil and trying to get back on their sights with a 12 gauge and it's even more lopsided. That's assuming they don't short stroke the pump, etc. If you're talking a soft recoiling auto like an 1100, then it'd be much closer I'll give you that.

Now lets talk worst case and both guns suffer catastrophic malfunctions after the first shot. Both first shots were decent since the shooter is under extreme duress. Which gun has the better chance of having ended the threat after only one shot? Shotgun wins again.


I'll agree that a single shell of #1 through 000 buck is probably more effective then a single 5.56 round. However I think both if placed in the appropriate area are probably non-survivable.

Which gun is easier to get on target in low light situations? Winner again, Shotgun. Just look down the barrel and pull the trigger. Aiming isn't a complete necessity. It's called a scatter gun for a reason.

On this one I disagree completely. If you're using a good load (Federal Tactical #00 9 pellet tru-flight for instance) at the 15 foot distance you specified you're pattern is not much bigger then bore diameter. It'll stay under 4"-5" out to 15 yds almost. You need to aim a shotgun at HD ranges just as much as a rifle. Also you can just throw the rifle up to the shoulder, look right over the sights and still make halfway decent hits at 3 yards. It's not hard. Both of them require the same skill set to get on target. An experience shotgunn'er might fell more comfortable with the instinctive swing of their shotgun, but I can tell you that if you run a rifle long enough you can do almost the same thing and use the sights at CQB distance.

What about having to shoot through a wall to get to the bad guy though? Frangible vs Lead. Winner? Lead.

There are quiet a few 5.56 rounds out there that are "barrier blind" meaning a bonded bullet that will happily go through drywall, sheet metal, auto glass, etc. to find the felon and still perform well. A shotgun pellet in comparison doesn't work nearly as well when going through barriers. A slug on the other hand is a different ball game, but present some over penetration hazards even after passing through the barrier AND felon.

Recoil? Winner AR no question. But how many people have you read about that complained that a gun kicked to hard when they were in a life or death situation?

Recoil isn't so much the issue in terms of pain, but in the need to make a fast follow shot either as the threat is still there or in the case you won the bad luck lottery and there are additional threats. Assuming a missed first round (or a less then effective hit), the need to make that follow on shot is important, and the more recoil the more difficult it is to do so quickly.

Overall I think both have a decent utility inside a home.

Louis Awerbuck always spoke of the shotgun as the poor mans SMG, with each pull of the trigger equating to a burst from a SMG. I think this helps in the comparison to the carbine platform. Both have sufficient lethality, both had adequate ammo for almost all encounters, and both require sufficient training to utilize.

A shotgun is not a difficult weapon to learn to shoot in the sense of a typical home defense scenario (make it hot, or take the safety off, fire 1 or 2 rounds). In my experience both in LE and private side as an instructor, it is in general easier to teach people to run the weapon beyond the HD scenario with a carbine. The lower recoil and less actions needed to make the weapon fire each time contribute to this. Manipulating the weapon to keep it running (reloads and malf clearances) are about equal in a way with a shotgun. Reloads are easier then a shotgun, and malf clearances more involved then a shotgun (assuming we're talking a pump, auto's are IMO about as bad as an AR in terms of the types and # of steps in a malf clearance).

Both systems serve well in the home, and both will continue to do so. Cost, ability to train, secondary usage of the weapon (hunting, sporting, etc.) all factor into works well for the shooter in terms of HD.

BigBore44
August 11, 2013, 02:01 AM
Ok guys,
I completely agree that with the propper ammo, the 5.56/223 IS a devestating round. I have seen it shatter ribs, completely obliterate femurs, etc. I make no bones about that. I have taken deer and yotes and lots of other critters with it. But I have also seen what 00 and 000 buck have done to people. Father was a police officer in Tulsa 25 years,Mother ER nurse for 40 years. Sometimes I saw pics. Sometimes I saw in person. And I can tell you first hand what a center mass shot from a shotgun at about 15 feet with 00 will do to a person. I bet you could even google some images. It's not pretty.

As far as the comment about bird shot goes, I have a friend of mine who while serving a warrant was shot with 7 1/2 bird shot twice. He is alive and well and you can still feel the pellets under his skin. But I also dropped a wild pig at about 12 yards last year while scouting for ducks with a 3" #2 steel shot. So maybe it's not that weak of a round.

Now to the short stroking the slide.. It does happen to people occasionally. More practice makes one more profecient. So does buying a shotgun that fits the shooter. I wouldn't give my 5'3" girlfriend my Benelli Nova with a 28" barrel and expect her to be all that great with it. It's too heavy, and to long a LOP for her. But a youth 870 20 gauge? I can have her running it like a champ in a week.

How far can I engage an BG in my house? About 35-45 feet. And I will activly pursue the BG in my house should the need ever arise. But we are talking about a man's wife. Not me. She should be holed up in her bedroom, door locked, behind the bed, calling 911.

But this argument of which is better is truly futile. It's no different than the 9mm vs 45 debate. With propper bullet placement both are going to kill you. And I should have known better than to throw my dog in this fight. So I'll concede and say the AR is the GREATEST everything weapon of all time. It is the master of all situations.

My hope for the OP is that his wife never faces a situation like what he is trying to equip her for.

Girodin
August 11, 2013, 03:15 AM
Aiming isn't a complete necessity. It's called a scatter gun for a reason.

In my experience buckshot can have a pattern as small as 1.5" at 7 yards and as small as 4.5" at 25 yards. That doesn't give you much of a window to miss by with your "scatter gun." If you aren't aiming you are very likely to miss particularly at short ranges.

The more a pattern opens the more likely you are to be sending errant pellets (read liabilities) into places you may not intend or desire to.

Which gun is easier to get on target in low light situations? Winner again, Shotgun. Just look down the barrel and pull the trigger. Aiming isn't a complete necessity. It's called a scatter gun for a reason.

I'd say my AR with an aimpoint actually has a pretty good edge on all of my shotguns and their various sighting systems, save the shotgun that also wears a red dot.

Recoil? Winner AR no question. But how many people have you read about that complained that a gun kicked to hard when they were in a life or death situation?

As noted previously by another poster this is not an issue of pain. It is an issue of followup shots, transitioning to additional threats, and the like. Those are still real issues and the shotgun will still be slower, particularly with buck and slugs.

Now to the short stroking the slide.. It does happen to people occasionally. More practice makes one more profecient [sic].

Go to a three gun match. There you find people who are much more involved in shooting than the average person. You also see that people short stroking is really not that uncommon when they are operating under stress.


Take a fairly new shooter to the range. Take an AR and a 12 or 20 gauge. Give them one round in each weapon. Set silhouette up at 15 feet. Give the shooter 3 seconds to pick up each weapon and deliver one shot, center mass. Then count the number, and size of the holes on target. Every hole is a wound channel. Every wound channel in a vital is a kill. Winner? Shotgun.

The silliness of equating one hit from one shotgun pellet (say a 00 buck .30 cal round ball weighing 60 grains and going 1100 FPS) to one hit from a 5.56 or 300 blk bullet has already been touched on to some degree.

I'd suggest you take a new shooter to the range and set up three or four targets and have the shooter fire a shot at each and measure for time (self defense is often a time is life situation), accuracy, and consider potential terminal ballistics. Have them double tap and do the same thing. You start to see that with slug or buck many shooters are going to be a lot slower and the recoil and even make them miss followups or transitions completely if they try to push it too fast or don't know how to manage the recoil.

Which gun is more mobile? Winner AR. But I've never heard of a SD class that taught you to go looking for the bad guy.

I never heard of one that advocates holing up in your bedroom if you have child in another part of the house that you need to secure. I have heard a number of people who teach pistol, rifle and shot gun classes talk about the fact that they would need to go secure family members. Mobility in a house is for a lot of folks going to be a very important consideration.

And I will activly pursue the BG in my house should the need ever arise. But we are talking about a man's wife. Not me. She should be holed up in her bedroom, door locked, behind the bed, calling 911.

See above. I also take exception to the idea that someone you don't know ought to be cowering behind the bed simply because she is a woman but that you, a big strong man, can go out and chase down the bad guy. Situations dictate tactics more than the presence of a Y chromosome.

Now lets say you have 2 in the tube and 1 in the chamber on your 12 gauge. And you have an AR with a 20 round magazine. Is someone really going to tell me they they can pull the trigger on an AR 20 times before I can pull it 3?

How fast are you? People can get pretty fast with an AR. This is a 300 blk (read more muzzle rise and recoil than a 5.56) and he is transitioning between multiple targets. In other words he might be faster with a 5.56 and just firing at one target. I counted 14 shots in about three seconds. Each 300 BLk round is vastly more powerful than each 00 buck pellet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07joBnOuv4M

But this argument of which is better is truly futile. It's no different than the 9mm vs 45 debate. With propper bullet placement both are going to kill you. And I should have known better than to throw my dog in this fight. So I'll concede and say the AR is the GREATEST everything weapon of all time. It is the master of all situations.

Why not simply say that some of your arguments were not very well thought out and that "best" first requires defining specific requirements and criteria. Each has relative strengths and weaknesses.

stressed
August 11, 2013, 03:19 AM
:scrutiny:

What is the longest range that you could engage at in your home?

How large of a pattern does your shotgun throw at that range?
A shotgun will have realitively tight patterns in a home, even with open cylinder. The shorter the barrel, the better.

If you do have a SBS (or sawn off) remember to use copper plated buckshot, because you loose velocity with the shorter barrel, and the copper plating increases penetration. Buffered shot has nice patterns.

tnxdshooter
August 11, 2013, 05:13 AM
I prefer to use this with Winchester PDX1 buckshot.

http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/o685/dsclaiborne35/facebook_-862592537jpg_zpsd964e741.jpg

http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/o685/dsclaiborne35/facebook_726704478jpg_zps769d7127.jpg

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

BigBore44
August 11, 2013, 05:42 AM
Girodon,
Don't play the macho, sexist game. Thats very THR of you. The OP never stated that they had children in the home so I was operating under the assumption that they do not. And I am also operating under the assumption that she hasn't been engulfed in the shooting sports like you or I. Nor has she had the training ie; building searches, slicing the pie, the use of tactical lights, defensive tactics, that I have had. And I seriously doubt she is an active duty police officer or force recon. So pursuing danger probably isn't her thing. It truly amazes me how (some) AR lovers want to jump all over someone when they say that an AR isn't the greatest gun for every situation of all time. It's a great weapon. It has places it shines. It has it's shortcomings. So does every weapon made. My Benelli isn't going to compete at Camp Perry. But my M1A will. And my M1A isn't going to do so hot in the duck blind. Some guns are terrible in certain situations. I don't think the AR is terrible or even bad for HD with enough money for ammo and training. I just think in the OP'e situation, that a shotgun would better serve him and his wife.

Oh the holosights? Yes that's perfect to depend on! Battery operated electronics. Nothing like making sure "Ok I need to push this button, turn this knob"
And what happens if the batters craps out on her? Now what does she do? K.I.S.S.

How fast can I run my shotgun on target? 3 shots, 3 separate targets under 3 seconds. I have also been using a shotgun my whole life. I'm fast enough. But I don't use a shotgun for HD. Nor do I use an AR. But which would I prefer my novice girlfriend or wife use should she be home alone? I choose the shotgun.


You want to use an AR for HD? Ok cool. I don't have a problem with that. It would't matter if i did. I hope if that situation ever arises that you send that BG straight to hell and you and your family are safe.

Jason_W
August 11, 2013, 10:22 AM
I prefer shotguns on account of their lower cost, versatility, and potential as a do-all gun. The last one is important as I live semi-rural and there are things I can do with a shotgun that I can't with a centerfire rifle.

Jenrick
August 11, 2013, 02:33 PM
Jason_W: Not being argumentative at all, just curious. What things can you do with a shotgun that you can't do with a center fire rifle? As an Urban dweller I don't have a frame of reference for the needs of a rural/semi-rural dweller.

-Jenrick

Jason_W
August 11, 2013, 02:52 PM
What things can you do with a shotgun that you can't do with a center fire rifle?

1. Shoot small animals without pulverizing them.

2. Shoot small animals out of the air and off tree limbs without having to worry about endangering people miles away.

If I didn't live in a place where hunting and pest control were a possibility, my firearms choices would be dictated by what I could afford and what I enjoyed taking to the range the most.

What I like about shotguns is that by simply changing up ammo and choke tubes, I can defend myself, shoot small game, eliminate vermin, and kill all North American hoofed game out to about 100 yards. To top it all off, the above can be accomplished with an investment of well under what most ARs cost.

Sauer Grapes
August 11, 2013, 06:18 PM
I shot an IDPA match last year. One station involved kneeling down, pick up a Mossberg pump and firing one shot at a steel popper at about 30 feet. I was amazed how many people missed that 2 1/2 foot tall popper. Aiming is required with a shotgun at close range.
That said, I'm so comfortable with shotguns and handguns, a rifle would be my last choice.

Dirty Bob
August 11, 2013, 06:26 PM
That stage at the match wasn't that far-fetched, though. All of us should know how to run the major types of rifles, shotguns and handguns, if only for the sake of safety. By the way, in the AR or shotgun question for HD, why can't I choose both?

All my best,
Dirty Bob

allaroundhunter
August 11, 2013, 06:53 PM
At 3 gun matches I see more people miss with shotgun than with their AR at defensive ranges....and that is using #7 1/2 birdshot...

JShirley
August 11, 2013, 06:57 PM
I think the recoil with a 12, while potentially an issue when addressing multiple targets, is more a problem with shooters learning and wanting to learn how to use a HD firearm. I've had an inexperienced 12 y/o happily shooting an AR15. I know for certain that if he'd fired one full-power Foster slug (the reduced recoil overpenetrate for HD use) or one round of buckshot, he would have been through. And very angry at me, possibly to the point of never trusting my advice about firearms again.

There is a MAJOR difference between #2 and 7 1/2 shot. #2 is approaching a size that I would use without complaint for HD, if I had nothing larger. I would only be certain 7 1/2 would work within 5', IF the attacker wasn't large, wearing heavy clothing, or on any intoxicants.

John

allaroundhunter
August 11, 2013, 07:18 PM
If you think small statured women have problems with 12 gauges, go google Katie Francis and watch a video...

She is quite the shooter and handles a 12 ga well.

JShirley
August 11, 2013, 07:28 PM
The only blanket statement I intended was that learning to shoot a 12 gauge with effective HD ammunition was a considerably more painful experience than shooting a .223, and that recoil challenge could lead to a lack of practice or outright rejection of the shotgun. I in no way meant to impugn the abilities of any professional athletes of any sex or age. :rolleyes:

allaroundhunter
August 11, 2013, 07:40 PM
I wasn't responding directly to you John... To be honest I kinda ignored your post because I figured it wasn't one to argue with.

I was saying that in general, small stature and 12 ga shotguns are not mutually exclusive terms ;)

JShirley
August 11, 2013, 07:56 PM
Ah, ok. Got it.

John

Dirty Bob
August 11, 2013, 08:16 PM
One easy answer to 12 ga. recoil is to go with either the low-recoil buckshot, or to switch to the 20 ga. I'm very happy with the 20 ga: my Mossberg 500 is light and quick, yet I find it kicks less than my 12 ga. with buckshot. If I add one or two accessories, it should still handle well (unlike some overloaded shotguns I've tried -- come on, two sidesaddles?), while the recoil will be even tamer.

I've shot ARs and like them, but I can't choose one, because I went with my favorite defensive rifle caliber: .303 Brit. In my sporterized No.4 Mk1* (sporterized before I bought it cheap), it does not kick less than the shotgun! It cost less, though!

I still say there's really no bad choice between an AR and a good shotgun for HD. As long as you are trained with it, either will serve superlatively.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

Warp
August 11, 2013, 08:21 PM
AR for me.

I have both, and a shotgun was my choice for longer, but that was due to $ restraints keeping me from getting into AR's.

The AR is shorter, lighter, has more range (it's not just an HD gun for me, it's an all purpose defensive arm), penetrates soft armour, less recoil and faster follow up shots, equal or less wall penetration, extremely effective on target, greater capacity...

That said my shotgun is still loaded and ready as well.

MCgunner
August 11, 2013, 08:25 PM
I'll keep my shotgun and a handgun or two loaded. You guys can use whatever tacticool flashlighted contraption you want. For me, I like the power of a shotgun, even 20 gauge, over a centerfire .22 rifle. But, then, I've been shooting shotguns and rifles for a long, long time.

Warp
August 11, 2013, 08:32 PM
I'll keep my shotgun and a handgun or two loaded. You guys can use whatever tacticool flashlighted contraption you want. For me, I like the power of a shotgun, even 20 gauge, over a centerfire .22 rifle. But, then, I've been shooting shotguns and rifles for a long, long time.

I suppose it wouldn't be the world wide web without some healthy condescension directed at those who choose differently than yourself, eh?

LeonCarr
August 11, 2013, 08:34 PM
Recoil is probably the number one reason more people don't train with the shotgun.

When I teach Defensive Shotgun I devote an hour to shotgun control and reducing felt recoil, everything from "power stance" to ammo to shotgun modifications.

I am pretty passionate about the shotgun, and in some of my posts I might sound like I "poo-poo" the AR and its effectiveness, but it is a very effective tool and easier to shoot accurately due to greatly reduced felt recoil than the shotgun.

I know three people who are able to drink Shiner Bock with me today because shotguns saved their lives. I know about 100 people who are able to drink Shiner Bock with me today thanks to the AR/M4/M16.

Either one will stop a threat inside the house.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

tactikel
August 11, 2013, 08:35 PM
Warp nailed it, the AR does anything a shotgun can do, is more versatile, packs 30 rounds, and is effective to 400 M. I was a shotgun man until I took a carbine class, it opened my eyes to the versitality of a carbine, we engaged targets from 3 yards to 400, it shouldered as fast as my 20ga. Grouse gun, and packed twice the punch as my .45acp. :D

JShirley
August 11, 2013, 08:35 PM
Yeah, it's only been 36 years of shooting experience for me, including many years of using a shotgun almost exclusively, so what the hell do I know? :rolleyes:

edited to add: was agreeing with Warp, but there were some simul-posts.

Leon, that's the highest recomendation I've heard you give for the M4.

John

LeonCarr
August 11, 2013, 08:41 PM
They work :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

allaroundhunter
August 11, 2013, 09:19 PM
They work :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

There's a reason I keep one of each loaded and ready to go :)

I really don't mind which one I grab. 10 rounds of 12 ga or 30 of 5.56.... Someone's gonna have a bad day ;)

Dirty Bob
August 11, 2013, 09:32 PM
There's an excellent account in Chris Bird's Thank God I Had a Gun, of Barbara Thompson, who saved her own life one night in a nursery in Fort Worth, TX, with a Winchester Defender 12 ga. I recommend the whole book, but that chapter shows that a shotgun can still do the job.

I do think, however, that in the outdoor setting, an AR with HP rounds and a very good weaponlight on the forend might have been even better.

Respectfully submitted,
Dirty Bob

tnxdshooter
August 12, 2013, 05:12 AM
The biggest things I've found to minimize recoil with the 12 gauge are as follows.

1. Do not shoot it in a bladed stance. Shoot it squared up to the target much like you would an ar 15. Shooting squared up makes for quicker follow up shots and reduces felt recoil.

2. Use low recoil (law enforcement) buck shot loads.

3. Buy a black hawk spec ops knoxx recoil reducing stock. It really does work.

Combine all three of these together and 12 gauge recoil is easily managed.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

Fred Fuller
August 12, 2013, 10:49 AM
Short LOP shotgun stocks - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfH_v9rv3Js

Demonstrates the differences in stance etc. in shooting standard LOP shotguns vs. short LOP stocks.

tnxdshooter
August 12, 2013, 01:38 PM
Short LOP shotgun stocks - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfH_v9rv3Js

Demonstrates the differences in stance etc. in shooting standard LOP shotguns vs. short LOP stocks.

Yup I've seen it. Its a good video.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

MCgunner
August 12, 2013, 06:24 PM
Warp nailed it, the AR does anything a shotgun can do, is more versatile, packs 30 rounds, and is effective to 400 M.

When you kill someone at 400 meters, I'll know it 'cause you'll quit posting 'cause they probably ain't gonna allow you web access in prison. :rolleyes: Besides, my house isn't 400 meters long.

Warp
August 12, 2013, 06:42 PM
When you kill someone at 400 meters, I'll know it 'cause you'll quit posting 'cause they probably ain't gonna allow you web access in prison. :rolleyes: Besides, my house isn't 400 meters long.

I suppose it wouldn't be the world wide web without some healthy condescension directed at those who choose differently than yourself, eh?

MCgunner
August 12, 2013, 08:04 PM
Condescension is one thing, but murder from 400 meters? Come on, Texas is pretty good about use of deadly force. We have the castle doctrine, but 400 meters? Ask a lawyer, though. I'm no lawyer, just read the penal code a few times over for CCW classes and general knowledge. Anyway, if you'll look at the very title of this thread, it says "HOME DEFENSE". Even the Astrodome was only 410 feet or so straight away center field. That's about 130 meters, something like that?

At close range, a shotgun makes just shy of 3000 ft lbs, perhaps a little over with a 3" loads, but I'll stick to 2 3/4". A 223 makes half that. PLUS, each of 15 00 buck is .33" vs .22 for the rifle. PLUS, at close range, the 12 is more like a bullet than a shot pattern. 12 is simply devastating at close range any way you look at it and in MY house, I won't be shooting more'n 30 feet or so. All that said, I keep a 20 gauge coach gun at the ready with 3 buck, .25 caliber each, 20 in a cartridge. I really don't know the numbers on it, never worried about that. It's 55 caliber or something like that, why worry? Projectile is measured in ounces, not grains.

ARs will kill, that's for certain, if properly used. I find a shotgun easier to shoot because I shoot 'em a lot at small flying things and they fit me and they're quick and natural. I know that i've hit rabbits on the run with a .22 before, but I've also missed a lot. A shotgun gives me a better chance of eating fried cottontail. When things are moving, I do better with a shotgun...YMMV. I don't plan on shooting up my house with a 30 round magazine, figure firepower is best used for combat fire and maneuver and for that, you really need a SAW gunner. The shotgun is THE weapon for close up self defense IMHO. I mean, I'm not a trained ninja or anything, JMHO. This IS an opinion thread, is it not?

You wanna use a rifle in a house, go for it. It's almost a free country, still, despite DC. Just giving my opinion. I mean, I live out in the woods, no real threats other than coyotes going after my chickens. I don't really worry a lot about home invasion, but I am prepared, probably a paranoia from living in Corpus. I do own a few rifles, but no ARs. Closest thing I have to that are a couple of SKSs I bought back when they went for a hundred bucks a pop. Heckuva deal for a neat range toy. I've killed a couple of deer with the rifle, though I have better rifles. The paratrooper is just a range toy. I really don't desire an AR at all. You guys can have 'em. AGAIN, JMHO.

One thing about living out here, I have my own range and shoot nearly every day. It gives me lots of practice. There are houses around here and there, so when out back to tend to a feeder or check the hog trap, I take a shotgun a lot as bullets go up, they must come down. Well, that and it's easier to hit a running squirrel or rabbit, if I spook one up, with my shotgun. I've been hit by a 7.5 in the lip while dove hunting, didn't even make a mark. :D This applies to home defense only in that if you live in a neighborhood, you might think about projectiles flying around into peoples windows. I really don't worry about that out here, lots of room between houses. Most of the places around here are 10-20 acres and not many folks actually live out there, many places are just get aways for the Houston folks, hunting camps and such.

JShirley
August 12, 2013, 11:21 PM
While I did find your "I've been shooting...a long, long time" post condescending as some others did, I do believe that shotguns are only a real "first choice" for shooters who shoot shotgun more than anything else, and so have highly developed skill with it. So, if you shoot shotguns more than anything else, a properly fitted shotgun with good ammunition may indeed be the "best" choice for you.

John

Girodin
August 12, 2013, 11:57 PM
Girodon,
Don't play the macho, sexist game. Thats very THR of you.

So I'm not allowed to critique your sexist statements and doing so is somehow not highroad!? There are moderators on this thread and I'm sure if they feel like I have violated a THR rule they can tell me.

It truly amazes me how (some) AR lovers want to jump all over someone when they say that an AR isn't the greatest gun for every situation of all time.

And it never ceases to amaze me that when people make inane contentions that are addressed on their merits that the person advocating it often retreats to childish ad hominems and tries to chalk any disagreement with their errant ideas as fanboyism or hating.

For the record I own multiple ARs but I own even more shotguns. I train with both and like both. Tryng to act as if I am an "AR lover" simply because I have made a contention for what in my experience and training are real world advantages is just silly. Its also the level of discussion I expect to have with children not adults.

Oh the holosights? Yes that's perfect to depend on! Battery operated electronics. Nothing like making sure "Ok I need to push this button, turn this knob"
And what happens if the batters craps out on her? Now what does she do? K.I.S.S.



I love when people argue from sheer ignorance. I'm not sure how you managed to get some much incorrect in such a short paragraph. Get an aimpoint. First it is not a holgraphic sight. Second it has nothing to have to turn on. It can be constantly on. They are so robust that you would have to try to brake one. With a batter life that exceeds 5 years I'm not real worried about it crapping out. Change it out once a year if you want to be abundantly cautious. The batteries are cheap. Oh and there are trijicon RDS options that don't use batteries at all. If somehow equipment that is durable enough for swat, military grunts, special forces, LEOs, competition shooters, etc is not robust enough for living a quite life in clean comfy confines of your home then you can A) use it like a big ghost ring and score hits at reasonable HD distance, B) use BUIS.

Basically none of your critiques hold much water when applied to the types of RDS I would suggest someone use for HD.

I've seen more pump shotguns fail more than I have aimpoints. That is speaking of mechanical issues with the guns. If you lump in shooter errors causing issues the gap widens much much more.

Robert
August 13, 2013, 12:23 AM
Oh good grief. Use what works best for you and what you are best trained with. Now where did that dead horse gif go...

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