Oakseed
March 21, 2004, 09:38 PM
Is the "wave" all its said to be or is it just a way to boost sells of their knives?
emerson wave?
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Drjones
March 22, 2004, 01:46 AM
Check out www.bladeforums.com
Its supposed to be a truly useful feature, not at all a gimmick.
Only downside is most people say it wears down your pockets pretty quick.
Its supposed to be a truly useful feature, not at all a gimmick.
Only downside is most people say it wears down your pockets pretty quick.
G21dude
March 22, 2004, 11:33 AM
You can have my CQC7 wave when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.
It definitely *is* all its chalked up to be, and if you fast draw your knife 10 times a day, you *will* chew up your pockets. You can of course draw it normally and open it with your thumb.
When I show my pals the thing, I tell them to watch CAREFULLY. I draw it SLOWLY but use the wave thing, and it POPS open in my hand. At that point, everyone who's seen it is convinced I have a switchblade until I hand it to them, and then they scratch their heads and say "do that again."
It definitely *is* all its chalked up to be, and if you fast draw your knife 10 times a day, you *will* chew up your pockets. You can of course draw it normally and open it with your thumb.
When I show my pals the thing, I tell them to watch CAREFULLY. I draw it SLOWLY but use the wave thing, and it POPS open in my hand. At that point, everyone who's seen it is convinced I have a switchblade until I hand it to them, and then they scratch their heads and say "do that again."
Wanderer
March 22, 2004, 07:03 PM
What is the wave feature? Why would it chew up your pockets? How does it work?
Drjones
March 22, 2004, 07:21 PM
Well, a picture is worth a thousand words, so if anyone here has one...
Basically, it is a little notch, a little unsharpened metal "tooth," for lack of a better word, on the spine of the blade, right at the base.
When you pull the knife out of your pocket, you are supposed to do it so that the tooth snags the corner of your pocket and opens the knife.
It chews up your pockets because metal is harder than cloth. ;) :neener:
Basically, it is a little notch, a little unsharpened metal "tooth," for lack of a better word, on the spine of the blade, right at the base.
When you pull the knife out of your pocket, you are supposed to do it so that the tooth snags the corner of your pocket and opens the knife.
It chews up your pockets because metal is harder than cloth. ;) :neener:
Drjones
March 22, 2004, 07:24 PM
Here's a good pic: http://www.tadgear.com/edged%20tools/commander.htm
Fine company too. Do not hesitate to throw money at them next time you need stuff. :) They have VERY competitive prices too, in fact often they have the best price on stuff. Not bad for a place that has a physical store too. :)
Notice the "tooth" on the spine? Notice how you carry tip-up? Now try to visualise having that in your pocket and how the tooth would catch on the corner.
Fine company too. Do not hesitate to throw money at them next time you need stuff. :) They have VERY competitive prices too, in fact often they have the best price on stuff. Not bad for a place that has a physical store too. :)
Notice the "tooth" on the spine? Notice how you carry tip-up? Now try to visualise having that in your pocket and how the tooth would catch on the corner.
G21dude
March 22, 2004, 08:49 PM
http://63.74.13.65/videos/CQC-7.MPG
Skunkabilly
March 23, 2004, 12:21 AM
Be VERY careful.
Sometimes the screws work themselves loose. I really should Loc-Tite my Emerson.
I would caution against putting a Waved knife, if you are right-pawed, in the rear pocket and the Karambit in the front pocket; anything where the knife could possibly open.
You don't wanna reach into your pocket and put your banjopickin' career to an end :eek:
Oh, and drawing the Karambit :cool:
Sometimes the screws work themselves loose. I really should Loc-Tite my Emerson.
I would caution against putting a Waved knife, if you are right-pawed, in the rear pocket and the Karambit in the front pocket; anything where the knife could possibly open.
You don't wanna reach into your pocket and put your banjopickin' career to an end :eek:
Oh, and drawing the Karambit :cool:
Psssniper
March 23, 2004, 12:50 AM
Skunk,
I have two Karambit wounds already, I gotta learn to keep that little finger tucked in on the catch after the spin.
I have two Karambit wounds already, I gotta learn to keep that little finger tucked in on the catch after the spin.
G21dude
March 23, 2004, 09:05 AM
I don't do Karambit; I wasn't taught to fight that way... :)
I don't have any Emerson wounds, either -- a "waved" knife is no more likely to open accidentally than anything else. One has to intend to "wave" it open for it to do that.
Along those lines, I showed a coworker-buddy-neighbor of mine (he was one of the ones who said "do that again") how it works about a week ago and he said "I'd be afraid to slice my fingers off. I guess you have to practice that, huh?"
Upon saying that, I handed it to him, he clipped it on and drew it; it opened about halfway, and he got a funny excited look on his face. He hurriedly clipped it on again, and *pop* it was out. In my experience, it only takes a couple tries to get the gist of it, and it "works" 99% of the time after that. If I'm pulling it out to open a box or something and I'm not paying any attention, very rarely I'll half-3/4 open it, but it does happen every so often. If I'm consciously "drawing" it, it's 100%.
Bear in mind, folks, that one would rarely draw it "wave" style unless you're in a hurry -- it draws attention about as well as a slide being racked.
I don't have any Emerson wounds, either -- a "waved" knife is no more likely to open accidentally than anything else. One has to intend to "wave" it open for it to do that.
Along those lines, I showed a coworker-buddy-neighbor of mine (he was one of the ones who said "do that again") how it works about a week ago and he said "I'd be afraid to slice my fingers off. I guess you have to practice that, huh?"
Upon saying that, I handed it to him, he clipped it on and drew it; it opened about halfway, and he got a funny excited look on his face. He hurriedly clipped it on again, and *pop* it was out. In my experience, it only takes a couple tries to get the gist of it, and it "works" 99% of the time after that. If I'm pulling it out to open a box or something and I'm not paying any attention, very rarely I'll half-3/4 open it, but it does happen every so often. If I'm consciously "drawing" it, it's 100%.
Bear in mind, folks, that one would rarely draw it "wave" style unless you're in a hurry -- it draws attention about as well as a slide being racked.
bukijin
March 23, 2004, 09:18 AM
the wave is great. I adore my emerson commander despite it's difficult blade shape. You can use the wave in the left pocket also for a reverse draw...
tex_n_cal
March 24, 2004, 01:47 AM
I had a waved CQC-7 and thought it was a neat invention. Of course, I nearly speared the cat one day 'cause I threw it backwards by accident, after "waving" it out and having it slip out of my fingers:eek:
I think my biggest gripe is I just don't care for the Emerson blade designs - the Commander blade just doesn't make sense to me, and the bevel ground tantos don't work with the knife sharpeners I have.
What I really like are the benchmade Axis with M2 High speed tool steel blades:)
I think my biggest gripe is I just don't care for the Emerson blade designs - the Commander blade just doesn't make sense to me, and the bevel ground tantos don't work with the knife sharpeners I have.
What I really like are the benchmade Axis with M2 High speed tool steel blades:)
Sunray
March 24, 2004, 01:56 AM
Geezuz, it's pretty. Rope cutting edge and a skinning edge and some kind of hooky thing. No tool that tries to do everything does any of 'em well. How often do you cut rope? Skin? Trust me, if you hunt, buy a good skinning knife and one of those cut anything pair of scissors for everything else.
brownie0486
March 24, 2004, 09:22 AM
The wave makes for a very fast opening from the pockets.
It is, however, a gimmick. One that works, but a gimmick nevertheless.
Learn to open your folders rapidly through practice and stop relying on a "gatchet"/"feature" of that particular maker to get the folder into play.
Though it works very well, is fast, and as others have mentioned, it will chew the pockets pretty quickly, it still has the chance to fail in opening completely during a stressed opening under adverse conditions.
As well, the knife has to be drawn to the rear to get the "wave" to catch the back of the pocket to deploy it properly. If you are needing your folder to defend, it's unlikely the BG will be to your rear and more likely in front of your person.
When I deploy tactically [ under stress of attack ] I want the knife moving toward the aggressor immediately.
Take the time to learn the skills necessary to deploy most every folder and you will be better off. Just imagine you have never learned the skills of rapidly deploying a folder by hand, have crutched on the wave design in lieu of training to deploy folders rapidly, and then are handed a knife that has no "wave" to use. Gets ugly pretty quickly.
Depend and practice your own skills sets and training, they will carry you farther in life than a "gimmick" or crutch.
Again, the wave is fast and works well, no question there. It's the lack of training one will develop relying on this type of opening folder to the exclusion of ones needed skill sets with other blades.
Brownie
It is, however, a gimmick. One that works, but a gimmick nevertheless.
Learn to open your folders rapidly through practice and stop relying on a "gatchet"/"feature" of that particular maker to get the folder into play.
Though it works very well, is fast, and as others have mentioned, it will chew the pockets pretty quickly, it still has the chance to fail in opening completely during a stressed opening under adverse conditions.
As well, the knife has to be drawn to the rear to get the "wave" to catch the back of the pocket to deploy it properly. If you are needing your folder to defend, it's unlikely the BG will be to your rear and more likely in front of your person.
When I deploy tactically [ under stress of attack ] I want the knife moving toward the aggressor immediately.
Take the time to learn the skills necessary to deploy most every folder and you will be better off. Just imagine you have never learned the skills of rapidly deploying a folder by hand, have crutched on the wave design in lieu of training to deploy folders rapidly, and then are handed a knife that has no "wave" to use. Gets ugly pretty quickly.
Depend and practice your own skills sets and training, they will carry you farther in life than a "gimmick" or crutch.
Again, the wave is fast and works well, no question there. It's the lack of training one will develop relying on this type of opening folder to the exclusion of ones needed skill sets with other blades.
Brownie
DTLoken
March 24, 2004, 07:11 PM
I'd take a look at CRKT's M16 series.
It's probably one of the fastest opening folders short of a switch blade, if that interests you.
It has a finger flipper that protrudes from the back of the knife when closed, and with a flick of the wrist and a little push on the flipper, it snaps open much quicker in my experience than a thumb stud. Also when locked open the flipper also blocks the knife from sliding back in your hand.
The aluminum ones (Not the zytel handled ones) also have the LAWKS system which is basically a little lever that prevents the linerlock from closing inadvertantly.
All in all probably one of the best values in knives today, you should be able to find them for around $50.
It's probably one of the fastest opening folders short of a switch blade, if that interests you.
It has a finger flipper that protrudes from the back of the knife when closed, and with a flick of the wrist and a little push on the flipper, it snaps open much quicker in my experience than a thumb stud. Also when locked open the flipper also blocks the knife from sliding back in your hand.
The aluminum ones (Not the zytel handled ones) also have the LAWKS system which is basically a little lever that prevents the linerlock from closing inadvertantly.
All in all probably one of the best values in knives today, you should be able to find them for around $50.
zahc
March 25, 2004, 10:35 AM
When I deploy tactically [ under stress of attack ] I want the knife moving toward the aggressor immediately.
You can also wave a knife foreward right into edge-out reverse grip if that's your thing.
You can also wave a knife foreward right into edge-out reverse grip if that's your thing.
brownie0486
March 25, 2004, 01:46 PM
And if you find yourself without a waved folder, what then?
As well, you limit your own skills and are relying on a device to deploy which may fail under stress.
I've seen, and heard from quite a few that under stress, they missed the wave feature on the pocket entirely or the blade only partially opened.
Under the stress of attack, do I necessarily want to hope and pray the wave feature catches the pocket enough to open fully? You may not know it did deploy fully until you have not cut the BG when you had the chance.
In that scenario, how much time is lost to determining the whats wrong and then recorrecting the problem to continue.
I should expect to be able to draw the folder into my hand from the pocket and know where the blade is by my own sensory perceptions and touch. Yes, you can hear the click of the blade locking into position and know it was a solid opening, but then, with Murphy always around the corner, can you count on being able to hear the blade lock into place or should we expect [ like guns ] that our senses will be reduced in hearing and visualization upon being involved in a potentially lethal confrontation?
I'm not enamored with having to develop a new skill [ drawing the wave to the front of the pocket to deploy in edge out reverse grip ] when all my pther folders deploy to saber grip.
Sounds like a lot of fuss to go through to retrain ourselves so we may make use of a "gimmick" which may or may not fail when we actually "see the elephant" and then perhaps have to retransition our skills back to all other folders.
As well, if you want the wave, you are very limited [ relatively speaking ] as to what folders you may carry.
I just do not see the need for gimmicks to deploy. Use your own talents unless you are disabled, you'll be better off in the long run not using crutches when it's really unnecessary.
Brownie
As well, you limit your own skills and are relying on a device to deploy which may fail under stress.
I've seen, and heard from quite a few that under stress, they missed the wave feature on the pocket entirely or the blade only partially opened.
Under the stress of attack, do I necessarily want to hope and pray the wave feature catches the pocket enough to open fully? You may not know it did deploy fully until you have not cut the BG when you had the chance.
In that scenario, how much time is lost to determining the whats wrong and then recorrecting the problem to continue.
I should expect to be able to draw the folder into my hand from the pocket and know where the blade is by my own sensory perceptions and touch. Yes, you can hear the click of the blade locking into position and know it was a solid opening, but then, with Murphy always around the corner, can you count on being able to hear the blade lock into place or should we expect [ like guns ] that our senses will be reduced in hearing and visualization upon being involved in a potentially lethal confrontation?
I'm not enamored with having to develop a new skill [ drawing the wave to the front of the pocket to deploy in edge out reverse grip ] when all my pther folders deploy to saber grip.
Sounds like a lot of fuss to go through to retrain ourselves so we may make use of a "gimmick" which may or may not fail when we actually "see the elephant" and then perhaps have to retransition our skills back to all other folders.
As well, if you want the wave, you are very limited [ relatively speaking ] as to what folders you may carry.
I just do not see the need for gimmicks to deploy. Use your own talents unless you are disabled, you'll be better off in the long run not using crutches when it's really unnecessary.
Brownie
444
March 25, 2004, 02:17 PM
I have carried an Emerson Commander for about a year now. Both on and off duty. I haven't noticed any problem with my pockets yet. I realize that steel hook certainly is capable of ripping fabric, but it hasn't ripped mine. Of course I only use it a couple times a day. I suppose if you stood there for hours on end drawing the knife you would see the result in your pants.
The wave is a gimmick like the blade is a gimmick. There is no reason why the blade wouldn't open when you withdraw the knife unless you are using an incorrect technique. The correct technique takes about two tries to master. If for some reason the blade failed to deploy, you would then simply have what every other knife owner has when they pull out their knife. I don't get in a whole lot of knife fights so that usage doesn't occupy my thoughts when I am buying a knife. However, the ability to open and use a knife when my other hand is occupied doing something else is a big bonus to me. Just as an example I used my Commander a couple weeks ago to free a woman from a seatbelt in an overturned car. Dispite the fact that I was lying on my stomach with my upper torso in the car through the rear window I was able to reach back and draw my knife and have it open and ready to use. For me to base my knife buying decisions on defenisve tactics would be foolish.
"It's probably one of the fastest opening folders short of a switch blade..."
Actually it is far faster than a switchblade. You have to remove the switchblade from your pocket and find the buttom, assuming the knife is in the correct postion to open. With the wave, it is open when you take it out.
The wave is a gimmick like the blade is a gimmick. There is no reason why the blade wouldn't open when you withdraw the knife unless you are using an incorrect technique. The correct technique takes about two tries to master. If for some reason the blade failed to deploy, you would then simply have what every other knife owner has when they pull out their knife. I don't get in a whole lot of knife fights so that usage doesn't occupy my thoughts when I am buying a knife. However, the ability to open and use a knife when my other hand is occupied doing something else is a big bonus to me. Just as an example I used my Commander a couple weeks ago to free a woman from a seatbelt in an overturned car. Dispite the fact that I was lying on my stomach with my upper torso in the car through the rear window I was able to reach back and draw my knife and have it open and ready to use. For me to base my knife buying decisions on defenisve tactics would be foolish.
"It's probably one of the fastest opening folders short of a switch blade..."
Actually it is far faster than a switchblade. You have to remove the switchblade from your pocket and find the buttom, assuming the knife is in the correct postion to open. With the wave, it is open when you take it out.
Oakseed
March 25, 2004, 02:55 PM
444
I also fall more into the Utility rather than tactical side of knife use. What made you chose the Commander over the CQC-7 Since both have the "wave" feature.
I also fall more into the Utility rather than tactical side of knife use. What made you chose the Commander over the CQC-7 Since both have the "wave" feature.
444
March 25, 2004, 03:01 PM
I don't remember.
I didn't do a lot of research into this before I bought it. A friend of mine is an Emerson dealer and offered me the knife at his cost. I glaced through the catalog a few times and ordered one. At the time I didn't understand what the wave was. Soon after getting the first Emerson I realized what the wave was and ordered the Commander the next time he sent in an order. I don't even know what a CQC-7 is to be honest with you.
Although I think knives are cool and buy them on impulse every once in awhile, I am as you say a "utility user". I regularly use a knife in my every day activities and in my job. Honestly, pretty much any knife will do what I want to do. However I consider the ability to open the knife with one hand to be essential and also consider having a pocket clip to be essential so I can find the knife immediately. I also don't want to be digging around in my pockets with bloody or greasy hands.
I didn't do a lot of research into this before I bought it. A friend of mine is an Emerson dealer and offered me the knife at his cost. I glaced through the catalog a few times and ordered one. At the time I didn't understand what the wave was. Soon after getting the first Emerson I realized what the wave was and ordered the Commander the next time he sent in an order. I don't even know what a CQC-7 is to be honest with you.
Although I think knives are cool and buy them on impulse every once in awhile, I am as you say a "utility user". I regularly use a knife in my every day activities and in my job. Honestly, pretty much any knife will do what I want to do. However I consider the ability to open the knife with one hand to be essential and also consider having a pocket clip to be essential so I can find the knife immediately. I also don't want to be digging around in my pockets with bloody or greasy hands.
jwmoore
March 26, 2004, 10:45 AM
The wave is fast... Damn fast. I modded my beater endura because I'd read about how fast it was, and I didn't believe it. I ended up modding my carry endura because I was so pleased with the results.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jwmoore77/pictures/enduras.jpg
~W
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jwmoore77/pictures/enduras.jpg
~W
Gray_Fallen
March 31, 2004, 01:58 AM
Those interested in modifying their Endura's etc. should check this page out: http://www.geocities.com/mad_tactical/Combat_Customizing.html
I've also done this on Delica's, Civilians and Matriarch's from Spyderco, as well as Benchmade Griptilians and a couple Bucks with thumb-holes.
Any knife that carries tip up (or can be re drilled/tapped for tip up) and has a hole opener can be done like this pretty much.
One nice thing about a mod'ed Endura/Delica or Griptilian (or really any mod done like shown, with the spine lowered to guide the pocket into the catch) is you dont have to pull back to draw into forward grip, you can pull straight up, a much faster motion.
Or you can draw directly into reverse grip - especially if you use an Edge In/Pikal grip as I do.
Either way its the same motion as drawing a fixed blade from a normal belt sheath, and already very similar to the normal drawstroke to take a folder from the pocket as well - no new skills to learn, its there, you just build on it.
Pull the blade, and move it forward, rotate your wrist as needed to give point or edge, its as simple and clean as it gets and very forward.
Very nice, and a cost-effective way to get a Wave without having to pay Emerson prices. (Nothing against Emerson, carried a commander for three years, carry a La Griffe daily. my dad carries a CQC-7 I helped him get - but the quality has gone downhill of late I feel, and to get one thats top notch you have to hand-pick, and they just arent worth the prices you have to pay that way. IMO. YMMV.)
Gimmick or not, I like it - I trust it. With limited practice it becomes very effective. A little more drilling when someone is smacking you around, and you get even better at it. Works in tight spaces, on the ground, etc. and if it doesnt work, its easy to go right into a kinetic opening or thumb opening (which of course you should practice as much if not more than waving - as its a harder to develop skill, at least to get to a 100% reliability point, and if by some small chance something doesnt work, you move right into that.)
All my EDC folders have pocket catch devices, either modified or "unintentional" such as a bottle opener that works just like a modified Endura when the clip is flipped to tip up.
I've also done this on Delica's, Civilians and Matriarch's from Spyderco, as well as Benchmade Griptilians and a couple Bucks with thumb-holes.
Any knife that carries tip up (or can be re drilled/tapped for tip up) and has a hole opener can be done like this pretty much.
One nice thing about a mod'ed Endura/Delica or Griptilian (or really any mod done like shown, with the spine lowered to guide the pocket into the catch) is you dont have to pull back to draw into forward grip, you can pull straight up, a much faster motion.
Or you can draw directly into reverse grip - especially if you use an Edge In/Pikal grip as I do.
Either way its the same motion as drawing a fixed blade from a normal belt sheath, and already very similar to the normal drawstroke to take a folder from the pocket as well - no new skills to learn, its there, you just build on it.
Pull the blade, and move it forward, rotate your wrist as needed to give point or edge, its as simple and clean as it gets and very forward.
Very nice, and a cost-effective way to get a Wave without having to pay Emerson prices. (Nothing against Emerson, carried a commander for three years, carry a La Griffe daily. my dad carries a CQC-7 I helped him get - but the quality has gone downhill of late I feel, and to get one thats top notch you have to hand-pick, and they just arent worth the prices you have to pay that way. IMO. YMMV.)
Gimmick or not, I like it - I trust it. With limited practice it becomes very effective. A little more drilling when someone is smacking you around, and you get even better at it. Works in tight spaces, on the ground, etc. and if it doesnt work, its easy to go right into a kinetic opening or thumb opening (which of course you should practice as much if not more than waving - as its a harder to develop skill, at least to get to a 100% reliability point, and if by some small chance something doesnt work, you move right into that.)
All my EDC folders have pocket catch devices, either modified or "unintentional" such as a bottle opener that works just like a modified Endura when the clip is flipped to tip up.
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