Recent NFA check delays increasing?


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Arizona_Mike
August 6, 2013, 12:31 PM
I'm still waiting on my 3 Form 1s from early February. Those checks were cashed almost immediately. My last 3 Form 4s are not off to a great start.
You used to at least be able to count on them to take your money quickly.

Check written and sent---Cashed
5/31---6/11: 11 days
6/4---6/13: 9 days
6/25--7/15: 20 days!

The first and third were suppressors ordered by the dealer on Feb 8! If 6 months from check cashing is still a valid estimate (I doubt it is), I am looking at well over a year to take possession.

Any way you look at it, this is very poor customer service.

Mike

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dogtown tom
August 6, 2013, 04:17 PM
Arizona_Mike ....Any way you look at it, this is very poor customer service.
I disagree.....their customer service has not changed one bit. What HAS changed is the volume of NFA forms swamping ATF.

They are operating under the same number of document examiners as they were last year, but the number of forms submitted have increased. Sequestration and budget restrictions have prevented the hiring of additional examiners (which was in the plans).

Arizona_Mike
August 6, 2013, 05:57 PM
How is not having the staffing to meet demand not a component of customer service?

Mike

dogtown tom
August 6, 2013, 07:03 PM
Arizona_Mike How is not having the staffing to meet demand not a component of customer service?
1. "Customer service" usually means a business is involved.
2. ATF is a government agency, not a for profit business.

It's relatively easy for businesses to add staffing when business operations demand it. Government doesn't work that way.;)

Arizona_Mike
August 6, 2013, 08:11 PM
As I was saying . . . (http://www.howto.gov/customer-experience/customer-service-government)

Mike

Telekinesis
August 6, 2013, 09:08 PM
Any way you look at it, this is very poor customer service.

The whole point of the NFA was to make it difficult or impossible to get title 2 weapons. Good customer service isn't really a priority when that's your mandate.

As far as wait times, I'm hearing 9 months. I'm not sure if that's from submission or from pending, but it's not good news for those of us who are waiting on transfers... :uhoh:

MrM4
August 7, 2013, 12:55 PM
Our F4s are running about 9 months.

ssyoumans
August 7, 2013, 01:33 PM
Mailed mine jan 4th, check cashed on the 21st. Still waiting. Form 1 SBR.

dogtown tom
August 7, 2013, 08:22 PM
Form 3 sent in February, approved three weeks later.
Form 3 sent May 15, still waiting.

Prince Yamato
August 7, 2013, 08:43 PM
Sara Jones, who was the sole examiner for Texas was promoted and her paperwork went to other folks, namely, Jason Bowers. One less examiner for the largest NFA weapons purchasing state; yeah, that will slow down the process a bit.

Arizona_Mike
August 8, 2013, 12:30 PM
I thought that was Florida?

Mike

Arizona_Mike
August 8, 2013, 12:32 PM
I just got off the phone with the ATF. 3 Form 1s sent mid-February went pending April 30, end of Jan/early Feb at the earliest. Guy said 9 months from pending is standard.

Mike

Charger442
August 9, 2013, 12:06 PM
just heard that the ASA has been pushing hard with the ATF and they are going to bring 10 more examiners online within the next 2 months. The contractors they hired last year were nixed due to sequestration, but 10 examiners are being shifted over from the licensing center.

i think this will bring wait times back down significantly.

dogtown tom
August 9, 2013, 07:36 PM
Charger442 just heard that the ASA has been pushing hard with the ATF and they are going to bring 10 more examiners online within the next 2 months. The contractors they hired last year were nixed due to sequestration, but 10 examiners are being shifted over from the licensing center.
This rumor has been going around for four years now.

Charger442
August 9, 2013, 08:10 PM
This rumor has been going around for four years now.
Yeah sequestration wasn't going on 4 years ago and the ASA was just formed in the beginning of 2012.

Charger442
August 9, 2013, 08:20 PM
This was also a long time rumor and has now come to fruition.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/08/foghorn/atf-now-accepting-electronic-forms-for-nfa-transfers/

dogtown tom
August 10, 2013, 11:30 AM
Charger442 Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
This rumor has been going around for four years now.

Yeah sequestration wasn't going on 4 years ago and the ASA was just formed in the beginning of 2012.
No, the rumor about ATF adding or transferring additional NFA examiners is a long standing rumor.

Kinda funny when people blame sequestration or credit ASA..............neither has changed anything.

dogtown tom
August 10, 2013, 11:35 AM
Charger442 This was also a long time rumor and has now come to fruition.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...nfa-transfers/

Why do people believe some of the nonsense on that site?

The author just propagates the myth of ATF having electronic copies of the 4473...............wholly and completely wrong. The E4473 or Electronic 4473 is form filling software only and does not send a copy to anyone. Yet internet numbskulls continue to spread this myth.
This is bound to raise some privacy concerns, what with the ATF now having an electronic copy of not only the NFA stuff but your form 4473 as well.

brighamr
August 12, 2013, 03:30 PM
Just spoke to NFA. 9 months from pending is standard. My checks were cashed July 25th, transfers expect to complete in April 2014. He stated the increase was due to more work and less people. Wish I would have known this when I spent all that money in December of 2012...

Captains1911
August 13, 2013, 04:59 PM
I'm still waiting on my 3 Form 1s from early February. Those checks were cashed almost immediately. My last 3 Form 4s are not off to a great start.
You used to at least be able to count on them to take your money quickly.

Check written and sent---Cashed
5/31---6/11: 11 days
6/4---6/13: 9 days
6/25--7/15: 20 days!

The first and third were suppressors ordered by the dealer on Feb 8! If 6 months from check cashing is still a valid estimate (I doubt it is), I am looking at well over a year to take possession.

Any way you look at it, this is very poor customer service.

Mike

Customer Service? Huh? The NFA branch of the BATF does not exist to make money or service customers.

Anybody looking to purchase an NFA item should know up front what they are in for, there are plenty of resources available online that provide very accurate NFA form time estimates. If you aren't willing or patient enough to deal with the wait, don't play.

Arizona_Mike
August 13, 2013, 06:02 PM
It sounds like you find your knee pads comfortable.

Mike

PS. Besides querying the database at NFATracker.com back in January and finding the average wait was 180days from check cashing to stamp received in the mail, exactly what else are you suggesting I should have done?

dogtown tom
August 13, 2013, 07:35 PM
I received two on Form 3's today:
SBR submitted 5/22/13 approved 7/25/13
Silencer submitted 5/27/13 approved 7/27/13

Bubbles
August 15, 2013, 10:52 AM
Six months ago F2's were taking 7-10 days, now it's five weeks.

Sequestration has had an effect, not just at the ATF but also at the FBI, which does the background checks. Checks being done for NFA transfers have a lower priority than those for security clearances, and as was pointed out, there are now a lot more in the pipeline.

bigrunt
August 24, 2013, 11:09 AM
at $200 a stamp, the NFA branch should be self funding.

Telekinesis
August 24, 2013, 11:28 AM
at $200 a stamp, the NFA branch should be self funding.

The VAST majority of transfers that the NFA branch completes are transfers/registrations on form 5s, and form 3s that are not taxed individually. Things like dealer to dealer, and dealer to police transfers.

Ironman
August 24, 2013, 05:53 PM
The $200 goes to the Treasury, not the ATF. They don't see a dime.

Lennyjoe
August 26, 2013, 07:26 PM
Sent my paperwork in for a suppressor 15 May. Went pending 23 July and the lady on the other end said 9 months............:( I hope she was joking....

GCMkc
August 28, 2013, 09:30 PM
I was talking to a guy who said he had been waiting 8 months and he expected it to be a years' wait.

hentown
October 2, 2013, 03:42 PM
Is the shutdown also going to have any effect on the release date of the new Glock carbine? :evil:

Akita1
October 2, 2013, 05:20 PM
The $200 goes to the Treasury, not the ATF. They don't see a dime.
Revenue collection remains under Treasury, enforcement is now under Justice since Homeland Security was created.

I currently have three Forms 1 and 4 pending, the longest since March 2013. I expect well into next year...

zignal_zero
October 3, 2013, 10:40 PM
You guys do know that the "shutdown" put the pause on ALL form4's and 1's, right?

The day after the shutdown, the first thing I did was call the NFA branch of the BATFE and was told they are not processing ANY forms until after the furlough is lifted.

So....... the "9 months" (which is what I was told and they've always been accurate with their estimates) isn't even passing by right now. Add how ever long the shutdown lasts TO your 9 months.

Oh yea and as far as them NOT having a copy of the 4473. You would be VERY surprised how much info the BATFE has on the transfer of title 1 (regular) guns that are sold through a FFL. I know I was :(

Arizona_Mike
October 8, 2013, 02:13 PM
You guys do know that the "shutdown" put the pause on ALL form4's and 1's, right?
Yes, but I asked my question in August.

Mike

Lennyjoe
October 23, 2013, 03:57 PM
Just called and checked up on mine. Sent in 23 May 2013, pending 23 July 2013 and she (Vicky) just said 15 months from receipt of paperwork. I think I'm going to be sick.............:(

On 25 August I was told 9 months.....

Arizona_Mike
October 23, 2013, 04:06 PM
People over at subguns.com are also saying the script says 15 months. This is going to seriously lower demand and hurt dealers and manufactures. I expect many will go out of business.

Mike

Arizona_Mike
October 23, 2013, 07:11 PM
So I pulled the October and September approvals from NFATracker.com and am seeing 12-14 weeks from 2nd pending to stamp received.
Specifically for October approvals, the mean is 83 days with a standard deviation of 13. My examiner is averaging 73 days with a standard deviation of 6 days.
Adding in 17 days of furlough, I'm looking at 90 days from my second pending date on 9/10 plus or minus 1 week (would be 100 days for the average examiner). I think I am looking at the 2nd week in December if my examiner's average holds, 3rd or 4th week in December if the overall average holds. If the average goes up (I got off the fence due to Dorner) I am seriously looking at some time next year.

Now between approval and getting your stamp, the average is another 7 +/- 9 days! Even worse the average of the last 2 weeks has been 21 days! This if for forms that were mailed before the furlough!

I am pissed off but feel worse for the dealers and manufacturers.

Mike

martymcfly
October 23, 2013, 09:21 PM
damn! up to 15 months now? Maybe I should call and see when my first form 4 is expected, was Feb (which would be about 9 months) when I called back in Aug. Wonder if it's been pushed back.

But worse hearing the 15 months is I have an Octane which hasn't gone pending yet (check cashed in mid sept) and just today I order two new suppressors from Silencershop. They submitted the form 3s and the automated email said those are taking 3-6 weeks, then I get to start the 15 month wait. Ug, and 18 month process would be ridiculous! Heck, it was ridiculous at 6 months.

Arizona_Mike
October 23, 2013, 11:55 PM
I'm wondering what happens if a dealer dies or retires (esp. if waits hurt sales) with pending transfers?

Mike

Bubbles
October 24, 2013, 11:15 AM
I'm wondering what happens if a dealer dies or retires (esp. if waits hurt sales) with pending transfers?
Dealers who decide to retire or shut down usually stop accepting NFA transfers about a year in advance so their Title II books are clear. If one dies or loses his FFL/SOT for other reasons the ATF can bring in another local FFL/SOT to help complete the transfers.

MasterSergeantA
October 24, 2013, 12:04 PM
Projected wait times appear to be approaching 12-15 months, based on a call to ATF.

Elkins45
October 24, 2013, 10:16 PM
Projected wait times appear to be approaching 12-15 months, based on a call to ATF.
Jeez, I really hope that number only applies to applications being mailed now, not ones already in the pipeline. I have a Form 4 that the check was cashed in April I'm waiting on. Unfortunately the dealer checked no on the info box so I can't call and see when it went pending.

zignal_zero
October 25, 2013, 05:37 AM
Nope, that wait time applies to the forms that have been sitting in a box there for the last four months too. How do I know, you may wonder. When the (so called) government did it's little "reopen" (of course) I called the NFA branch and asked "are y'all back to processing 1's an 4's?" Linda said YES, but now my 9 month wait time will be more like 15 months. Then I asked if they were gonna stop again in February due to this being a temp fix. She basically said we will see in February but did not have a reassuring tone. Please don't hate on the examiners (not that y'all do) because this is NOT their doing and has made their job both harder and less stable. They don't like this anymore than we do.

Midwest
October 25, 2013, 08:58 AM
What was the least amount of time it took years ago? Days? Weeks? Months? Was one or two months the norm 10 or 20 years ago?

kimberkid
October 25, 2013, 11:42 AM
What was the least amount of time it took years ago? Days? Weeks? Months? Was one or two months the norm 10 or 20 years ago?
I don't know about 20 years ago, but when I applied for my first 2 stamps right after Obama won his first election in November 2007 I had my stamps back in 61 days.

Bubbles
October 25, 2013, 03:22 PM
My first took 10 months, back when Clinton was president.

Midwest
October 25, 2013, 05:34 PM
Only 61 days that must be close to a record. I always thought that it takes on average 4 to 6 months.

Telekinesis
October 25, 2013, 05:50 PM
Only 61 days that must be close to a record. I always thought that it takes on average 4 to 6 months.

I've heard of as little as 4 weeks, though in all fairness that was quite a few years ago.

The time it takes for forms to be approved is related to how many backlogged forms the NFA branch has received before yours, so when thinking about how long it took for a stamp to be approved, you really have to look at the date the form was approved as well.

For me, my first stamp (received early 2013) took about 5 and a half months. My next two received a few months later took just a hair over 6 months. My next stamp (the can just arrived on a form 3) will likely take every bit of 15 months, which really kills me because I've already waited 4 months on the form 3. That means in all I'll be waiting 19 months to get the can! :fire:
This will very likely be the last NFA weapon I buy unless I either get an incredible deal on a machine gun or I decide to bite the bullet so to speak and get my SOT.

Arizona_Mike
October 25, 2013, 06:58 PM
I called today for the first time on 3 cans and was told 15 months from the receive date. My receive dates were 6/12, 6/12, and 6/12. One was in dealer stock on 6/4, the other two were ordered on 2/8. None were even fist pending yet after almost 4.5 months!

Mike

medalguy
October 26, 2013, 12:27 AM
I went back to some transfers I had in 1974 and the time from the other FFL dating the Form 1 and mailing it in to approval by ATF to me (I was SOT back then) was 26 days. Can you imagine that??? :eek:

Arizona_Mike
October 26, 2013, 01:19 AM
All I know is that Iran is going to have a nuke before I have my supressors.

Mike

AlexanderA
October 26, 2013, 11:37 AM
The 15-month delays, plus the change requiring CLEO signatures for trusts, are absolutely going to kill this market. I just don't see people tying up $20,000+ for a machine gun under those conditions. And suppressors and SBR's aren't going to be commercially viable.

Lessened demand is going to mean lessened prices. Simple laws of economics.

On the other hand, prices of semiautomatic clones of machine guns (such as OOW's M1918A3 BAR) are going to go up. Even non-firing guns built on 80% receivers are going to go up.

And, ultimately, there's going to be an uptick in illegal guns. After all, the NFA, as administered until recently, was a sort of legal safety valve for people wanting these items. If that door is shut, well..... we have Prohibition as an example.

I have no doubt that the delays and the other changes in the way NFA rules work reflect antigun Administration policy. They're targeting what they perceive to be the "low hanging fruit" of the gun world. But in the long run this shows poor judgement.

Aaron Baker
October 26, 2013, 11:50 AM
Yes, but the delays aren't an artificial timespan created by the ATF. They're a result of the number of applications being submitted.

The reason that the wait is at 15 months (if it really is--that's obviously an estimate) is that a lot more people are submitting forms right now. If the really long estimated wait times cause people to stop submitting forms, then the wait times will drop back down.

I don't doubt that there's a "sweet spot" for wait times that people will put up with, and the market will correct itself until we hit that spot. I just don't know what that is in absolute terms, but in relative terms, it's the amount of time that an average buyer is willing to wait for a stamp. Or perhaps more accurately, it's the amount of time just less than the amount of time that will cause the average buyer to decide NOT to submit a form.

If new trust requirements and long wait times cause people to stop submitting forms, then wait times will drop and that's good for those of us who are going to submit forms either way. But it's bad for the NFA "community" as a whole.

Aaron

AlexanderA
October 26, 2013, 02:54 PM
Any sort of reasonable business or government agency would increase staffing to take care of an increased flow of applications. The fact that the ATF is not increasing staffing to the levels needed tells me that a decision was reached at the highest levels to let NFA transactions wither on the vine. The Administration has to be well aware of the economic consequences of unreasonable waits. That, combined with the proposed CLEO bottleneck, means that their strategy is to eliminate the NFA world in practice rather than legally.

Aaron Baker
October 26, 2013, 03:36 PM
Of course we're just speculating, but I don't necessarily agree. The ATF's NFA branch probably has a fixed budget. More applications doesn't mean more money.

Businesses and government agencies aren't run the same. (Maybe they should be, but they aren't.) If this was a more popular service and more people would complain, or more politically connected people would complain, then I can see staff being expanded, but NFA Branch is a pretty small government branch affecting a small number of "customers."

With that said, I understand that they did hire more staff sometime in the last year or so. But applications are just outpacing their ability to hire staff.

Aaron

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