natedog
February 4, 2003, 12:57 AM
I read in a recent post on THR that most SARs that are for sale today in the shotgun news are poo, that they are actually converted WARS-10s to take hi-cap mags. so if SARs are poo, then what AK isn't?
If SARs are poo, then what isn't?
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SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 01:05 AM
Fear not, the great state of Texas (Arsenal USA) makes probably the best AK since George Bush Sr. banned the Polytech.
http://www.full-auto.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004150
http://www.full-auto.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004150
JG
February 4, 2003, 01:11 AM
AK-USA is a great choice if you want a Stamped Russian AK.....quality is fantastic.
I got a Bulgarian OD sling from K-Var, but it arrived torn. Will have to order another one, will use the Russian sling for another AK.
http://www.fototime.com/{67C0B6C7-BF00-4BCE-9B3B-2CFE3114CE98}/picture.JPG
I got a Bulgarian OD sling from K-Var, but it arrived torn. Will have to order another one, will use the Russian sling for another AK.
http://www.fototime.com/{67C0B6C7-BF00-4BCE-9B3B-2CFE3114CE98}/picture.JPG
762x51
February 4, 2003, 11:14 AM
I'm not sure who told you that SAR's are converted WASRs. That is the first account I have ever read of it. CAI do put out a gun that is stamped WASR-10 which started life as a single stack gun and was converted to double stack, however the guns marked SAR began life as double stack guns. If someone has proof that CAI is putting out guns marked SAR that are actually converted single stack guns, I'd like to see it.
While true that the SAR isn't the nicest AK out there, it's a good gun for the money and can be made to look quite nice with some time and effort. However.....if you are willing to spend the extra money and get a REALLY nice AK out of the box, I would agree with JG and go for one of AK-USA's guns. Chris does beautiful work.
Good Luck.
While true that the SAR isn't the nicest AK out there, it's a good gun for the money and can be made to look quite nice with some time and effort. However.....if you are willing to spend the extra money and get a REALLY nice AK out of the box, I would agree with JG and go for one of AK-USA's guns. Chris does beautiful work.
Good Luck.
SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 12:02 PM
762x51, here is the sitrep. The Sar1-3s that have been sold by CAI, SOG, etc. are just that. However the AKMs curently advertised as "SARs" are in fact WASR10 conversions.
I posted a link about it on a thread here called "Ain't She Purdy..."
Editted to add link: (SAR Scam)
http://www.full-auto.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=33;t=000200
I posted a link about it on a thread here called "Ain't She Purdy..."
Editted to add link: (SAR Scam)
http://www.full-auto.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=33;t=000200
Omaha-BeenGlockin
February 4, 2003, 12:17 PM
Notice how the converted WASR-10 receiver has flat sides in the pic. A true SAR-1 will have elongated indentations in the receiver above the mag well-----if that makes sence.
Tropical Z
February 4, 2003, 12:20 PM
SAR's are NOT worth the money or effort needed to turn them into decent guns.Get a Saiga if you want a 10 rounder or a VEPR if you want a hi-cap.
www.eaacorp.com
www.robarm.com
www.eaacorp.com
www.robarm.com
SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 12:25 PM
Tropical Z, I disagree. SARs (and most AKMs) simply are what they are. I own one as a designated crap AO gun. It is a ground pounder for mud, rain and long periods of neglect.
But it certainly ain't (and never will be) a target rifle.
But it certainly ain't (and never will be) a target rifle.
Tropical Z
February 4, 2003, 12:27 PM
Tell that to the SAR2 piece of GARBAGE i once owned!!!:o
762x51
February 4, 2003, 01:45 PM
SteyrAug:
Ok....so you were sent a WASR-10 which a less then reputable dealer sold you as a "SAR", correct? That is quite a bit different then what natedog is alluding to here. Maybe he got the wrong impression from your post on fullauto.com. So the solution to the problem here isn't writing off the SAR series....but actually Buyer Beware. If you want a SAR, ask them if it is stamped "SAR". Also, I noticed on your post at FA.com that you mentioned a "preban SAR". There is actually no such thing. Very few preban Romanian guns do exist, however they are not called SAR's.
Tropical Z:
You may have gotten a bad apple....but that doesnt mean they all are. There are quite a few of us out there that really enjoy our SAR's and believe they are a good deal. Did you get yours from an out of state dealer sight unseen?
Ok....so you were sent a WASR-10 which a less then reputable dealer sold you as a "SAR", correct? That is quite a bit different then what natedog is alluding to here. Maybe he got the wrong impression from your post on fullauto.com. So the solution to the problem here isn't writing off the SAR series....but actually Buyer Beware. If you want a SAR, ask them if it is stamped "SAR". Also, I noticed on your post at FA.com that you mentioned a "preban SAR". There is actually no such thing. Very few preban Romanian guns do exist, however they are not called SAR's.
Tropical Z:
You may have gotten a bad apple....but that doesnt mean they all are. There are quite a few of us out there that really enjoy our SAR's and believe they are a good deal. Did you get yours from an out of state dealer sight unseen?
SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 05:17 PM
762x51, what he was alluding to was there are NO MORE SARs. All of the guns currently imported and sold as SARs are in fact Wasr10 or Maadi10 conversions. SARs are no longer importable by law.
It is much like the Springfield Armory SAR 8 is no longer a Greek Hellenic Arms HK Contract rifle but a Century Arms POS.
The only way to buy a REAL SAR is to buy one that was imported over a year ago.
Editted to add: SARs are no longer legally importable. Thus ALL real SARs are preban.
It is much like the Springfield Armory SAR 8 is no longer a Greek Hellenic Arms HK Contract rifle but a Century Arms POS.
The only way to buy a REAL SAR is to buy one that was imported over a year ago.
Editted to add: SARs are no longer legally importable. Thus ALL real SARs are preban.
AK103K
February 4, 2003, 05:32 PM
I think the confusion with the SAR's and the WASR10's is from the adds in the SGN and Gun List that advertise "AK 47's" specificly and not SAR. I got one from SOG because my dealer wasnt paying attention. I kept it after I saw it as it was nicer than the SAR I got from them. Theres nothing wrong with the WASR10's. They have straight sights, nicer wood and a decent finish. Mine feeds anything I put in it and all my mags fit fine. It has no trigger slap either.
The SAR's are good guns for the money. They aren't $800 AK's and they dont pretend to be. They clean up decent with a little work and most of the time the trigger can be fixed if it has slap. They arent the only ones with slap either, my SSR-85C had it and the disconnector broke too, and it was $200 more than my SAR. These are the fault of the crap US parts, not the gun itself. If you get to pick it, like at a show, you can usually get one for a reasonable price, that has straight sights and good wood, or at least the color you want. For what you pay for the $6-800 guns alone, you can have a gun, a bunch of mags and a bunch of ammo with the SAR or WASR10.
The SAR's are good guns for the money. They aren't $800 AK's and they dont pretend to be. They clean up decent with a little work and most of the time the trigger can be fixed if it has slap. They arent the only ones with slap either, my SSR-85C had it and the disconnector broke too, and it was $200 more than my SAR. These are the fault of the crap US parts, not the gun itself. If you get to pick it, like at a show, you can usually get one for a reasonable price, that has straight sights and good wood, or at least the color you want. For what you pay for the $6-800 guns alone, you can have a gun, a bunch of mags and a bunch of ammo with the SAR or WASR10.
762x51
February 4, 2003, 05:51 PM
SteyrAug:
I have read about on AK-47.net and also have seen in person 2002 model SAR's that do NOT have a modified magazine well. These rifles begin their life as standard capacity rifles. The rifle in your post on FA.com is a WASR10. It is clearly marked "WASR-10". THESE are the converted single stack guns. Which law are you referring to that bans importation of the SAR series rifle? CAI is still importing them and finishing them here with the correct number of US made parts as they have in the past. AK103K is correct....there are some dealers out there that are advertising WASR10 rifles under incorrect or misleading names. There are however REAL current production SAR's out there. Wholesale Guns And Ammo is one such dealer who has them in stock. This is where I have personally inspected 2 of these guns. If you look around on the Romanian forum at AK-47.net you will see that there are several other people who have recently picked up 2002 model SARs as well. As I said before....I think the real issue here should be to double check with your dealer what exactly is stamped on the rifle before you buy it. Not that you wouldn't want a WASR.....just know what you are getting.
I have read about on AK-47.net and also have seen in person 2002 model SAR's that do NOT have a modified magazine well. These rifles begin their life as standard capacity rifles. The rifle in your post on FA.com is a WASR10. It is clearly marked "WASR-10". THESE are the converted single stack guns. Which law are you referring to that bans importation of the SAR series rifle? CAI is still importing them and finishing them here with the correct number of US made parts as they have in the past. AK103K is correct....there are some dealers out there that are advertising WASR10 rifles under incorrect or misleading names. There are however REAL current production SAR's out there. Wholesale Guns And Ammo is one such dealer who has them in stock. This is where I have personally inspected 2 of these guns. If you look around on the Romanian forum at AK-47.net you will see that there are several other people who have recently picked up 2002 model SARs as well. As I said before....I think the real issue here should be to double check with your dealer what exactly is stamped on the rifle before you buy it. Not that you wouldn't want a WASR.....just know what you are getting.
454c
February 4, 2003, 06:07 PM
Come on guys,poo or not poo on the SAR's?:confused: I've been thinking of getting one from SOG,but some of you guys are making me nervous.The worst thing I had heard till now was to check the sites on them.
762x51
February 4, 2003, 06:11 PM
Best advice I can give is to take a look over on the Romanian forum at AK-47.net. Pinned at the top of the page is some very good info on the SAR series as well as some things to look for on them when purchasing. I personally think they are a good deal as far as an AK you want to shoot. Not much to look at, but functions very well. With some money dumped into it....they can shine up VERY nicely.
Good Luck.
Good Luck.
TheFrontRange
February 4, 2003, 06:18 PM
I picked up a 2002 serial number SAR-1 last November. I can't comment on the whole mag-well-milling thing as I wasn't even aware of it until reading these recent threads. I did do some checking on some other firearms forums before buying, though, and found some very good commentary there. The general consensus seemed to be that 1999-2000 era SARs might require some tweaking to overcome trigger slap, reliability issues, etc., and that 2001 and later versions should not exhibit those problems.
To look at mine I can't see where it's been modified in any way, but I am in no way an AKM expert. My only prior AKM-type rifle experience was with my father-in-law's MAK-90 a few years back.
I ran 250 rounds of Wolf FMJ through my SAR-1 with zero trouble. It's a fun, reliable, and inexpensive gun to shoot, and that's what I was on the market for. A Ruger 10/22 would've fit that bill nicely, too, but that's one of my upcoming purchases. :)
For what it's worth, I'll probably replace the factory wood on my SAR with something synthetic just because I think it would look better.
I'd say if you want a SAR, go for it!
To look at mine I can't see where it's been modified in any way, but I am in no way an AKM expert. My only prior AKM-type rifle experience was with my father-in-law's MAK-90 a few years back.
I ran 250 rounds of Wolf FMJ through my SAR-1 with zero trouble. It's a fun, reliable, and inexpensive gun to shoot, and that's what I was on the market for. A Ruger 10/22 would've fit that bill nicely, too, but that's one of my upcoming purchases. :)
For what it's worth, I'll probably replace the factory wood on my SAR with something synthetic just because I think it would look better.
I'd say if you want a SAR, go for it!
SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 06:34 PM
The rifle in your post on FA.com is a WASR10. It is clearly marked "WASR-10". THESE are the converted single stack guns. Which law are you referring to that bans importation of the SAR series rifle? CAI is still importing them and finishing them here with the correct number of US made parts as they have in the past.
Yes I know. That is exactly what I pointed out on the full auto post.
Only the WASR 10s and the Maadi 10s are currently importable.
The manufactured as "high capacity" SARs have not been importable for some time. And that is exactly why they did the WASR10 and Maadi10 conversions. ATF just declared them "no longer importable."
If someone is offering a SAR 2002 it is my guess they are importing the receiver only and building a 922r gun here in the states much like Hesse did with the "supposedly" Russian built Izmash AK.
As for if the WASR 10 conversions (which are commmonly advertised throughout SGN by various companies as a SAR) is as good as the SAR the answer is NO.
The SARs were never top of the line AKs but at least they were "acceptable" quality for a AK 47. The weak link is the 10 round to high capacity mag well conversion. They are milled out at Century Arms and high cpacity magazines do fit, but do NOT fit anywhere as nice as a true SAR.
They are a pain in the *** to insert and are a pain in the *** to remove. To me that makes them not worth the effort UNLESS there just isn't anything else.
My recommendation is to look at one in person. Insert and remove the magazine. Inspect the condition. If you can live with it buy it. But do not buy one sight unseen. You just may hate it.
Yes I know. That is exactly what I pointed out on the full auto post.
Only the WASR 10s and the Maadi 10s are currently importable.
The manufactured as "high capacity" SARs have not been importable for some time. And that is exactly why they did the WASR10 and Maadi10 conversions. ATF just declared them "no longer importable."
If someone is offering a SAR 2002 it is my guess they are importing the receiver only and building a 922r gun here in the states much like Hesse did with the "supposedly" Russian built Izmash AK.
As for if the WASR 10 conversions (which are commmonly advertised throughout SGN by various companies as a SAR) is as good as the SAR the answer is NO.
The SARs were never top of the line AKs but at least they were "acceptable" quality for a AK 47. The weak link is the 10 round to high capacity mag well conversion. They are milled out at Century Arms and high cpacity magazines do fit, but do NOT fit anywhere as nice as a true SAR.
They are a pain in the *** to insert and are a pain in the *** to remove. To me that makes them not worth the effort UNLESS there just isn't anything else.
My recommendation is to look at one in person. Insert and remove the magazine. Inspect the condition. If you can live with it buy it. But do not buy one sight unseen. You just may hate it.
AK103K
February 4, 2003, 07:36 PM
As for if the WASR 10 conversions (which are commmonly advertised throughout SGN by various companies as a SAR) is as good as the SAR the answer is NO.
The SARs were never top of the line AKs but at least they were "acceptable" quality for a AK 47. The weak link is the 10 round to high capacity mag well conversion. They are milled out at Century Arms and high cpacity magazines do fit, but do NOT fit anywhere as nice as a true SAR.
I'll have to disagree on this. If you read the adds closely, most dont call the WASR's SAR's, they call them AK47's. SOG actually has adds with both on the same page and they look the same, probably is the same pic. I'm not saying some are not passing them off as SAR's, but most of the adds I've seen dont. The last show I was at had a bunch of "new" SAR's for sale. Unless they are just selling off old stock or whats left, there seems to be a good supply of them.
The WASR10 I have and the others I've seen have been nicer than the SAR's. I guess its possible that some were poorly done, but mine wasnt. I use the same mags in all my AK's. They all fit in my WASR10 without any trouble, and some actually fit better in it than in some of the others. I think mag "fit" is more an issue of mag rather than gun. My WASR also shoots better than my SAR1 at 100 yards. Now I've seen real bad SAR's and I've seen half decent ones too, and I'm sure there are probaly good and bad WASR's out there too. I just dont think they are near as bad as your portraying them to be.
The SARs were never top of the line AKs but at least they were "acceptable" quality for a AK 47. The weak link is the 10 round to high capacity mag well conversion. They are milled out at Century Arms and high cpacity magazines do fit, but do NOT fit anywhere as nice as a true SAR.
I'll have to disagree on this. If you read the adds closely, most dont call the WASR's SAR's, they call them AK47's. SOG actually has adds with both on the same page and they look the same, probably is the same pic. I'm not saying some are not passing them off as SAR's, but most of the adds I've seen dont. The last show I was at had a bunch of "new" SAR's for sale. Unless they are just selling off old stock or whats left, there seems to be a good supply of them.
The WASR10 I have and the others I've seen have been nicer than the SAR's. I guess its possible that some were poorly done, but mine wasnt. I use the same mags in all my AK's. They all fit in my WASR10 without any trouble, and some actually fit better in it than in some of the others. I think mag "fit" is more an issue of mag rather than gun. My WASR also shoots better than my SAR1 at 100 yards. Now I've seen real bad SAR's and I've seen half decent ones too, and I'm sure there are probaly good and bad WASR's out there too. I just dont think they are near as bad as your portraying them to be.
SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 07:57 PM
AK103K, check the date of the thread.
At that time, and for many months after, they were still calling them SARs. In fact they had the banner ad "SARs Are Back!" and were shipping out WASR 10 conversions.
Please understand I don't randomly make things up and can read a advertisement. And while S.O.G. is not currently advertising them as such Century Arms is in their 2003 catalog.
CAI is actually the main culprit as the deceptive advertising usually begins with them. Then companies who distribute CAI guns often use the same "copy advertisements" in their catalogs. Obviously some do it unknowingly, but I've seen some incredible lies in SOG catalogs.
I think mag "fit" is more an issue of mag rather than gun
Regarding this issue. The SAME magazine that fits well in a SAR fits like crap in a WASR10 conversion. To put this issue to rest try this.
As a dealer I have sold, shot and handled 100s of SARs through my business. NONE of them had mag fit issues, not even with the WORST of the USA Magazines.
Of the 20 odd WASR10 conversions that I have sold (and only ONE was sold without forwarning the customer of the situation) NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM fit high capacity mags of ANY TYPE in a manner that I felt acceptable. The vast majority of the customers were less than happy with them, especially when compared to a genuine SAR. This is regardless of mag type used. They all fit POORLY.
Perhaps you got the ONE SINGLE Wasr10 conversion that was converted to a exceptional standard of quality. I'm simply trying to advise a prospective buyer of the facts involved concerning the majority of Wasr10s he is likely to encounter.
This way he can make a informed decision concerning purchases.
As he is not buying one from me, and I don't benefit from any purchase he makes. I am simply offering my unbiased opinion based upon a geat deal of experience with BOTH the SARs and WASR10s.
At that time, and for many months after, they were still calling them SARs. In fact they had the banner ad "SARs Are Back!" and were shipping out WASR 10 conversions.
Please understand I don't randomly make things up and can read a advertisement. And while S.O.G. is not currently advertising them as such Century Arms is in their 2003 catalog.
CAI is actually the main culprit as the deceptive advertising usually begins with them. Then companies who distribute CAI guns often use the same "copy advertisements" in their catalogs. Obviously some do it unknowingly, but I've seen some incredible lies in SOG catalogs.
I think mag "fit" is more an issue of mag rather than gun
Regarding this issue. The SAME magazine that fits well in a SAR fits like crap in a WASR10 conversion. To put this issue to rest try this.
As a dealer I have sold, shot and handled 100s of SARs through my business. NONE of them had mag fit issues, not even with the WORST of the USA Magazines.
Of the 20 odd WASR10 conversions that I have sold (and only ONE was sold without forwarning the customer of the situation) NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM fit high capacity mags of ANY TYPE in a manner that I felt acceptable. The vast majority of the customers were less than happy with them, especially when compared to a genuine SAR. This is regardless of mag type used. They all fit POORLY.
Perhaps you got the ONE SINGLE Wasr10 conversion that was converted to a exceptional standard of quality. I'm simply trying to advise a prospective buyer of the facts involved concerning the majority of Wasr10s he is likely to encounter.
This way he can make a informed decision concerning purchases.
As he is not buying one from me, and I don't benefit from any purchase he makes. I am simply offering my unbiased opinion based upon a geat deal of experience with BOTH the SARs and WASR10s.
762x51
February 4, 2003, 07:58 PM
The manufactured as "high capacity" SARs have not been importable for some time. And that is exactly why they did the WASR10 and Maadi10 conversions. ATF just declared them "no longer importable."
Can you please tell me what law says this?
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40375
These new SAR's that I and other have seen came directly from CAI. As I said before.....CAI does not import these guns as complete rifles. They do the final assembly here in the US and install the correct number of US made parts in order to comply with BATF 922r. This si also why the guns sometimes have canted gas blocks and front sights.....the assemblers at CAI aren't exactly all that careful in putting the guns together.
In this context, SAR's are still being imported and perfectly legal this way. CAI is also not the one to blame regarding the rifles being sold as "SARs" as they have 2 distinct part numbers for WASRs and SARs. This is simply either lack of knowledge, or deception on the dealers part.
Edit to add: Also....how do you explain the SAR-2 and SAR-3? There are no single stack versions of these rifles available.
Edit to also add: An easy way to tell the difference is mag well "dimples". If yours does not have them, it is a converted gun. If it has them.....it started life as a double stack gun.
All I am saying is....there ARE NEW production SAR's out there which are TRUE doublestack guns.
Can you please tell me what law says this?
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40375
These new SAR's that I and other have seen came directly from CAI. As I said before.....CAI does not import these guns as complete rifles. They do the final assembly here in the US and install the correct number of US made parts in order to comply with BATF 922r. This si also why the guns sometimes have canted gas blocks and front sights.....the assemblers at CAI aren't exactly all that careful in putting the guns together.
In this context, SAR's are still being imported and perfectly legal this way. CAI is also not the one to blame regarding the rifles being sold as "SARs" as they have 2 distinct part numbers for WASRs and SARs. This is simply either lack of knowledge, or deception on the dealers part.
Edit to add: Also....how do you explain the SAR-2 and SAR-3? There are no single stack versions of these rifles available.
Edit to also add: An easy way to tell the difference is mag well "dimples". If yours does not have them, it is a converted gun. If it has them.....it started life as a double stack gun.
All I am saying is....there ARE NEW production SAR's out there which are TRUE doublestack guns.
Sir Galahad
February 4, 2003, 08:16 PM
I have a SAR-1 dated 2001. Shoots perfectly. Thousands of rounds and YET to have ONE glitch. All Warsaw Pact surplus mags fit perfectly. Will pop a soda can at 80 to 100 yards every time. One of the best values for my dollar I ever spent.
SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 08:16 PM
Can you please tell me what law says this?
There is no Federal Law that says this. It is simply a matter of ATF adding them to the list of "no longer importable" much like FMP receivers. You did know that ATF routinely does that without the passage of a law didn't you?
In this context, SAR's are still being imported and perfectly legal this way. CAI is also not the one to blame regarding the rifles being sold as "SARs" as they have 2 distinct part numbers for WASRs and SARs. This is simply either lack of knowledge, or deception on the dealers part.
Incorrect, as stated above SAR1s are no longer being imported. Wasr10 are still being imported and converted to high caps. Bottom line is if the receiver says WASR10 but is sold as a SAR1 then that is "deception on the dealers part."
Edit to add: Also....how do you explain the SAR-2 and SAR-3? There are no single stack versions of these rifles available.
Easy enough, the orginal supply hasn't yet been exhausted.
And finally, to put this to rest because MANY of you seem confused or unable to read what I have wriitten. Just make sure a rifle you purchase as a SAR is actually a SAR. This is because it is common practice to substitute a WASR10. This was the point I tried to make clear on the original Full-Auto post and here.
There is no Federal Law that says this. It is simply a matter of ATF adding them to the list of "no longer importable" much like FMP receivers. You did know that ATF routinely does that without the passage of a law didn't you?
In this context, SAR's are still being imported and perfectly legal this way. CAI is also not the one to blame regarding the rifles being sold as "SARs" as they have 2 distinct part numbers for WASRs and SARs. This is simply either lack of knowledge, or deception on the dealers part.
Incorrect, as stated above SAR1s are no longer being imported. Wasr10 are still being imported and converted to high caps. Bottom line is if the receiver says WASR10 but is sold as a SAR1 then that is "deception on the dealers part."
Edit to add: Also....how do you explain the SAR-2 and SAR-3? There are no single stack versions of these rifles available.
Easy enough, the orginal supply hasn't yet been exhausted.
And finally, to put this to rest because MANY of you seem confused or unable to read what I have wriitten. Just make sure a rifle you purchase as a SAR is actually a SAR. This is because it is common practice to substitute a WASR10. This was the point I tried to make clear on the original Full-Auto post and here.
SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 08:19 PM
All I am saying is....there ARE NEW production SAR's out there which are TRUE doublestack guns.
If this is true, then CAI must have gotten a new supply of SAR receivers. I have not seen this to be true yet. The last "supposed" SAR1 I ordered for a customer about 3 weeks ago was still a Wasr10 conversion.
If I order another Sar1 in the future for anyone I will advise you guys as to what is actually sent to me.
If this is true, then CAI must have gotten a new supply of SAR receivers. I have not seen this to be true yet. The last "supposed" SAR1 I ordered for a customer about 3 weeks ago was still a Wasr10 conversion.
If I order another Sar1 in the future for anyone I will advise you guys as to what is actually sent to me.
762x51
February 4, 2003, 08:32 PM
Can you please show me SOME kind of evidence that this is true?You are the first person to make these comments. Exactly when did the BATF determine that this rifle is no longer importable? If this is the case how do you explain the 2002 series SARs that are out there? Are you suggesting that they are illegal?
TargetShooter2
February 4, 2003, 08:43 PM
Greetings,
Back in late 1999 i deceided to go all nato 223/308 so i traded off all of my aks , 2 SA93s, a mac90, ak hunter and my red Polyside folder so for the last couple of years all ive had is ARs until last week , i traded for a Wasr10 that was converted last week on the AR Board , i have 225.00 in this Sar , i took it home pulled the bolt and checked it out , look good on the inside , the conversion
was alittle rough but the mags fit snug no play or wobble , they dropped and inserted with out any problems , the sight look straight so i loaded up some mags and went outside and shot it , i ran 100 rounds through it , first thing i did was go through a thirty fast from the hip , ok no problem there , next i did a double tap for thirty no problems there , so i let it cool alittle , then i shot for groups at 50 yds it went 2 to 3 inches offhand , so i think i got my money worth on this one , besides i still had a couple cases of wolf that i saved back just incase i ever needed it . i will upgrade to a red star trigger and add a kobra . really this rifle was a good deal for me iam satisfied with it i dont know if all of the Wasr10 are as good as this one either , just thought i would post on this one . i also did one of my cammo jobs on it .
TS2
Before :
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid49/p4870826c380c2367d456738ccba173de/fcb291ec.jpg
After :
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid49/p0b5463dd09f4cc97b3ff6a6cf5f2329a/fcb29645.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid49/p119375667cb327d8f9e9c98b274b16f9/fcb29666.jpg
Back in late 1999 i deceided to go all nato 223/308 so i traded off all of my aks , 2 SA93s, a mac90, ak hunter and my red Polyside folder so for the last couple of years all ive had is ARs until last week , i traded for a Wasr10 that was converted last week on the AR Board , i have 225.00 in this Sar , i took it home pulled the bolt and checked it out , look good on the inside , the conversion
was alittle rough but the mags fit snug no play or wobble , they dropped and inserted with out any problems , the sight look straight so i loaded up some mags and went outside and shot it , i ran 100 rounds through it , first thing i did was go through a thirty fast from the hip , ok no problem there , next i did a double tap for thirty no problems there , so i let it cool alittle , then i shot for groups at 50 yds it went 2 to 3 inches offhand , so i think i got my money worth on this one , besides i still had a couple cases of wolf that i saved back just incase i ever needed it . i will upgrade to a red star trigger and add a kobra . really this rifle was a good deal for me iam satisfied with it i dont know if all of the Wasr10 are as good as this one either , just thought i would post on this one . i also did one of my cammo jobs on it .
TS2
Before :
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid49/p4870826c380c2367d456738ccba173de/fcb291ec.jpg
After :
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid49/p0b5463dd09f4cc97b3ff6a6cf5f2329a/fcb29645.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid49/p119375667cb327d8f9e9c98b274b16f9/fcb29666.jpg
AK103K
February 4, 2003, 08:45 PM
SteyrAUG,
I guess I have a good one then. All the mags I have are either Bulgarian or Hungarian surplus mags. I dont have any USA mags. Some mags fit better in the WASR than they do in the SAR. Some fit good in the SAR but not in the Saiga or Hungarian. It varies. The one thing that doesnt is, they all work, snug or sloppy, and they work in the WASR too. It feeds everything I've put in it, fmj, soft point, hp, reguardless how the mag fits. As I said before, out of the box, the WASR I have was a lot nicer than the SAR's I've seen, and the other WASR's I've seen were to. Maybe they just send the nice ones down this way. :)
I guess I have a good one then. All the mags I have are either Bulgarian or Hungarian surplus mags. I dont have any USA mags. Some mags fit better in the WASR than they do in the SAR. Some fit good in the SAR but not in the Saiga or Hungarian. It varies. The one thing that doesnt is, they all work, snug or sloppy, and they work in the WASR too. It feeds everything I've put in it, fmj, soft point, hp, reguardless how the mag fits. As I said before, out of the box, the WASR I have was a lot nicer than the SAR's I've seen, and the other WASR's I've seen were to. Maybe they just send the nice ones down this way. :)
762x51
February 4, 2003, 08:53 PM
AK103K:
You are not alone in thinking so. Many people have said that the fit and finish on the WASR is better than on a comparable SAR. The 2002 model SARs that I examined however had a better fit and finish than any of the other SARs I have seen before. Maybe CAI is actually doing something about their QC? :eek:
Edit: SteyrAug: Here is a picture of a 2002 SAR-1 someone was kind enough to post for me.
http://www.kcs-tech.net/2k2sar1.jpg
You are not alone in thinking so. Many people have said that the fit and finish on the WASR is better than on a comparable SAR. The 2002 model SARs that I examined however had a better fit and finish than any of the other SARs I have seen before. Maybe CAI is actually doing something about their QC? :eek:
Edit: SteyrAug: Here is a picture of a 2002 SAR-1 someone was kind enough to post for me.
http://www.kcs-tech.net/2k2sar1.jpg
SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 08:57 PM
AK103K, I didn't say they had problems feeding. I said the fitting was crappy. In other words you cannot change a mag as easily or smoothly on a WASR10 conversion as you can on a SAR.
762x51
Can you please show me SOME kind of evidence that this is true?You are the first person to make these comments. Exactly when did the BATF determine that this rifle is no longer importable? If this is the case how do you explain the 2002 series SARs that are out there? Are you suggesting that they are illegal?
You'll have to excuse me. I don't have a link to ATFs "Guns we arbitraily banned" story. The SARs were deemed no longer importable about the same time (and for the same reason) as the FMP receivers.
However, after doing a bit o investigating I found out HOW the new SAR1s and the 2002 Sars are coming in. They are importing SAR receiver blanks and manufacturing them into complete receivers AT Century Arms. Doing this makes them importable and actually constitutes a US receiver.
This would also explain the SAR 2s and 3s, assuming the original supply was ever depleted.
762x51
Can you please show me SOME kind of evidence that this is true?You are the first person to make these comments. Exactly when did the BATF determine that this rifle is no longer importable? If this is the case how do you explain the 2002 series SARs that are out there? Are you suggesting that they are illegal?
You'll have to excuse me. I don't have a link to ATFs "Guns we arbitraily banned" story. The SARs were deemed no longer importable about the same time (and for the same reason) as the FMP receivers.
However, after doing a bit o investigating I found out HOW the new SAR1s and the 2002 Sars are coming in. They are importing SAR receiver blanks and manufacturing them into complete receivers AT Century Arms. Doing this makes them importable and actually constitutes a US receiver.
This would also explain the SAR 2s and 3s, assuming the original supply was ever depleted.
762x51
February 4, 2003, 09:20 PM
Can you disclose your source for this information? This is the first that I and I'm sure many others have heard about this. If this is the case, wouldn't the rifles have to have CAI stamped on the side as the MANUFACTURER not the importer since they are actually importing unfinished receivers? The ones that I saw in person have the same markings on the fire selector side of the receiver as any other SAR.
"MADE BY CN ROMARM SA/CUGIR
IN ROMANIA
IMPORTED BY CAI GEORGIA,VT"
"MADE BY CN ROMARM SA/CUGIR
IN ROMANIA
IMPORTED BY CAI GEORGIA,VT"
SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 09:39 PM
762x51, my source is just being in the business.
Finding out awhile back that SARs were no longer importable.
Then finding out (the hard way) that the "Sars are back!" SARs are really WASR10 conversions.
A little over a year ago ATF (in an effort to curtail 922r guns) banned severl receivers and key parts (such as barrels). SARs and FMP receivers were on the list. Strangely Imbel receivers and FAL barrels were not.
Currently FMP receiver flats are being imported and assembled into complete receivers at Special Weapons to get around the ban on FMP receivers.
The same is being done for the SAR.
The blanks have maunfacturer marks prior to importation but must also have importer marks by the importer.
Regarding the SAR 2002 I'd wager it is possibly a new config receiver that was developed for importation and is currently not banned. It could be imported complete.
However, I remember when the SARs were deemed "unimportable" by ATF. It was post 9-11 when the supply dried up and EVERYONE wanted one. I missed a lot of sales due to unavailability.
For perspective, do you remember when ATF specifically banned the HK SR9? How about the Steyr USR? How about the Springfield SAR 8 (the real Greek one)? These were guns that were created to be compliant with existing laws and were simply added to the list.
Finding out awhile back that SARs were no longer importable.
Then finding out (the hard way) that the "Sars are back!" SARs are really WASR10 conversions.
A little over a year ago ATF (in an effort to curtail 922r guns) banned severl receivers and key parts (such as barrels). SARs and FMP receivers were on the list. Strangely Imbel receivers and FAL barrels were not.
Currently FMP receiver flats are being imported and assembled into complete receivers at Special Weapons to get around the ban on FMP receivers.
The same is being done for the SAR.
The blanks have maunfacturer marks prior to importation but must also have importer marks by the importer.
Regarding the SAR 2002 I'd wager it is possibly a new config receiver that was developed for importation and is currently not banned. It could be imported complete.
However, I remember when the SARs were deemed "unimportable" by ATF. It was post 9-11 when the supply dried up and EVERYONE wanted one. I missed a lot of sales due to unavailability.
For perspective, do you remember when ATF specifically banned the HK SR9? How about the Steyr USR? How about the Springfield SAR 8 (the real Greek one)? These were guns that were created to be compliant with existing laws and were simply added to the list.
762x51
February 4, 2003, 09:52 PM
What exactly are the SW/FMP receivers marked with? I still say that if CAI is actually importing the flats and assembling them into complete receivers that they must be marked as the manufacturer, not the importer. And this is simply not so:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p43d827d6f9c0c0161d121ed2809d2c93/fcaed3ab.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/pf9c719c756254b8317e9aa974cf8d4f7/fcaed3a8.jpg
And this ban on importing SARs....you make it sound as if they are banned by name....if this is the case, how can these 2002s be simply "new config receivers to get around the ban" but have the same name?
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p43d827d6f9c0c0161d121ed2809d2c93/fcaed3ab.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/pf9c719c756254b8317e9aa974cf8d4f7/fcaed3a8.jpg
And this ban on importing SARs....you make it sound as if they are banned by name....if this is the case, how can these 2002s be simply "new config receivers to get around the ban" but have the same name?
SteelyDan
February 4, 2003, 10:22 PM
My two cents, based on owning one WASR, shooting a buddy's WASR, shooting a buddy's Bulgarian (SLR-95??), and spending some time researching the issue on AK-47.net, is that the difference between the SAR-1 and the WASR-10 is pretty minimal. Everything else being equal, I'd pick the SAR, just because it is what it was designed to be, while the WASR had to be modified. But on the other hand, from my limited experience I expect you're a little more likely to get straight sights and a better finish with the WASR.
I've put close to 1000 rounds through my WASR. Two rounds stovepiped during very rapid fire. Seven of eight mags fit fine, and once they're inserted there's a little sideways play, but it's not a big deal or a problem. The eighth mag needed about two minutes with a small file to fit properly. Seven of the eight mags feed perfectly, the eighth one (not the same as the other "eight one") doesn't feed at all; I haven't taken the time to figure out why yet. Other than those problems, it's been flawless and I can hit 7" or 8" targets all day long at 100 yards using a cheap lawnchair as a rest and shooting rounds at about 1.5 second intervals.
So, my point is, if you like the SARs I wouldn't sweat getting a WASR. In neither case will you be getting a top AK varient, but in both cases you'll be getting something that's inexpensive, downright cheap to shoot, pretty reliable and very easy to fix if there's a problem, reasonably accurate (for an AK), and most importantly just a whole lot of fun.
I've put close to 1000 rounds through my WASR. Two rounds stovepiped during very rapid fire. Seven of eight mags fit fine, and once they're inserted there's a little sideways play, but it's not a big deal or a problem. The eighth mag needed about two minutes with a small file to fit properly. Seven of the eight mags feed perfectly, the eighth one (not the same as the other "eight one") doesn't feed at all; I haven't taken the time to figure out why yet. Other than those problems, it's been flawless and I can hit 7" or 8" targets all day long at 100 yards using a cheap lawnchair as a rest and shooting rounds at about 1.5 second intervals.
So, my point is, if you like the SARs I wouldn't sweat getting a WASR. In neither case will you be getting a top AK varient, but in both cases you'll be getting something that's inexpensive, downright cheap to shoot, pretty reliable and very easy to fix if there's a problem, reasonably accurate (for an AK), and most importantly just a whole lot of fun.
Gewehr98
February 4, 2003, 10:33 PM
SteelyDan, you didn't mention your take on the SLR-95. SHame on you! ;)
(Only because I know the quality level of that particular, and now expensive, AK variant)
(Only because I know the quality level of that particular, and now expensive, AK variant)
Guyon
February 4, 2003, 11:46 PM
TriggerShooter2: That's some nice camo work. How do you go about it?
Aspin
February 4, 2003, 11:49 PM
My 2001 SAR-1 (not WASR-10...) is WONDERFUL all mags fit nice, not hard to insert/remove it shoots great too. Its not Poo, my Father (Nam Vet, M-14 User) Loves it...
SteyrAUG
February 5, 2003, 12:18 AM
What exactly are the SW/FMP receivers marked with? I still say that if CAI is actually importing the flats and assembling them into complete receivers that they must be marked as the manufacturer, not the importer.
I don't know, I have not seen one yet.
And this ban on importing SARs....you make it sound as if they are banned by name....if this is the case, how can these 2002s be simply "new config receivers to get around the ban" but have the same name?
Banned by configuration/designation. Basically the ATF doesn't want anymore high capacity receivers coming in. However uncompleted receivers are exempt. They are completed into finished receivers in the US and therefore just as legal as converting a Wasr10 under 922(r).
Again, I have yet to see one of the NEW SARs so I cannot say exactly what the markings are. My SAR is a 2001 and therefore a original one. And the most recent SAR I ordered was still a WASR10 conversion.
IF I order a SAR in the future and it turns out to be something NEW I will bring you up to speed.
I don't know, I have not seen one yet.
And this ban on importing SARs....you make it sound as if they are banned by name....if this is the case, how can these 2002s be simply "new config receivers to get around the ban" but have the same name?
Banned by configuration/designation. Basically the ATF doesn't want anymore high capacity receivers coming in. However uncompleted receivers are exempt. They are completed into finished receivers in the US and therefore just as legal as converting a Wasr10 under 922(r).
Again, I have yet to see one of the NEW SARs so I cannot say exactly what the markings are. My SAR is a 2001 and therefore a original one. And the most recent SAR I ordered was still a WASR10 conversion.
IF I order a SAR in the future and it turns out to be something NEW I will bring you up to speed.
Redlg155
February 5, 2003, 01:44 AM
I've also got a 2002 stamped SAR1.
Same markings as stated by 7.62x51 on my rifle. And it is indeed a SAR1.
Good Shooting
RED
Same markings as stated by 7.62x51 on my rifle. And it is indeed a SAR1.
Good Shooting
RED
SteelyDan
February 5, 2003, 01:49 AM
Gewehr98, you're right, I meant to mention the SLR-95 but got distracted. The look, the fit and finish, and the feel of the Bulgarian are just head and shoulders above its Romanian counterpart. I only shot one 30-round mag through it, but it's definitely a class act. I can't say I noticed any more accuracy than the WASR, but I wasn't trying for accuracy. I will say that even though I really like the WASR, one of these days I will spend twice the money to get the Bulgarian. It's impressive. Still, when all is said and done, they both do pretty much the same thing in the field, which is why I think the Romanians are such a good value.
Wildalaska
February 5, 2003, 02:54 AM
I will say that every SAR I have ever shot (even the ones that looked like poop) digested everything without a burp. Even the ones done Class III just ran and ran and ran...
The Rumanian AKs of whatever origin, are the ony things worthwhile from Century...
WildbutdonotbuythemsightunseenAlaska
The Rumanian AKs of whatever origin, are the ony things worthwhile from Century...
WildbutdonotbuythemsightunseenAlaska
Carlos
February 5, 2003, 10:31 AM
I've shot over 10,000 rounds through an SAR-1 before I sold it to a buddy (2001 model). It never had but one or two ammo feeding problems. It still functions perfectly, and is not a WASR.
SAR's are NOT worth the money or effort needed to turn them into decent guns
That is pure nonsense. I bought a 2002 model a couple of weeks ago, and I don't need to turn it into anything. Out of the box, it shot a little low. The site tool took care of that, and it's shooting clays at 80 yards, no problem (What's your definition of decent gun? What, you looking for a Weatherbee finish??). LOL.
The finish is the best I've seen on the SAR-1's and I don't have to do a refinish job, as I had anticipated. The fit is much tighter than the 2001 and earlier models.
Sure, they're not SLR's or VEPRs, but they're damned good, or "decent" guns, if you look for the obvious shortcomings we've all heard about.
Not worth the money, my ***.
SAR's are NOT worth the money or effort needed to turn them into decent guns
That is pure nonsense. I bought a 2002 model a couple of weeks ago, and I don't need to turn it into anything. Out of the box, it shot a little low. The site tool took care of that, and it's shooting clays at 80 yards, no problem (What's your definition of decent gun? What, you looking for a Weatherbee finish??). LOL.
The finish is the best I've seen on the SAR-1's and I don't have to do a refinish job, as I had anticipated. The fit is much tighter than the 2001 and earlier models.
Sure, they're not SLR's or VEPRs, but they're damned good, or "decent" guns, if you look for the obvious shortcomings we've all heard about.
Not worth the money, my ***.
Tropical Z
February 5, 2003, 01:39 PM
My SAR2 set new standards for crappy fit and finish.I have NEVER seen a new gun come in looking worse than my SAR2 did! I guess its OK if YOU dont mind your front sight being canted to the left A QUARTER OF AN INCH!!!-but i'll pass on SAR's.I'm getting a VEPR in the next couple of months.SAR's arent worth the money OR effort to turn them into decent guns!:rolleyes:
yzguy
February 5, 2003, 01:57 PM
762x51, what he was alluding to was there are NO MORE SARs. All of the guns currently imported and sold as SARs are in fact Wasr10 or Maadi10 conversions. SARs are no longer importable by law
I'm sorry but that is false. I have a 2002 SAR-1 that I purchased new in December. It is NOT marked "WASR10" nor is it milled out to accept hi caps. It also has the mag dimple that the WASR10's lack. You were given the wrong rifle, but the real ones do exist.
as far as my reason for getting an SAR-1 was that no matter what I got, I would have probably put in the RSA adjustable trigger group and a new Choate stock set. So it did not matter to me that the wood did not match and the fire control group may have been crapy, they were not staying in anyway. I love mine, and am thinking about getting it powder coated.
I'm sorry but that is false. I have a 2002 SAR-1 that I purchased new in December. It is NOT marked "WASR10" nor is it milled out to accept hi caps. It also has the mag dimple that the WASR10's lack. You were given the wrong rifle, but the real ones do exist.
as far as my reason for getting an SAR-1 was that no matter what I got, I would have probably put in the RSA adjustable trigger group and a new Choate stock set. So it did not matter to me that the wood did not match and the fire control group may have been crapy, they were not staying in anyway. I love mine, and am thinking about getting it powder coated.
SteyrAUG
February 5, 2003, 03:02 PM
I'm sorry but that is false. I have a 2002 SAR-1 that I purchased new in December.
yzguy, please read the entire post.
1. It is NOT false. For a while (the time of the link) SARs were no linger being imported.
2. The current SARs (like yours) are once again marked SAR (not Wasr10) but they are coming in as blanks and made into complete receivers in the US.
I noted both above.
yzguy, please read the entire post.
1. It is NOT false. For a while (the time of the link) SARs were no linger being imported.
2. The current SARs (like yours) are once again marked SAR (not Wasr10) but they are coming in as blanks and made into complete receivers in the US.
I noted both above.
linx310
February 5, 2003, 04:28 PM
Ok...first off let me introduce my self...I am linx310, the resident Romanian expert...hehe...
Go here for a run down on every thing:
http://linx310.nothingbutguns.com
1. It is NOT false. For a while (the time of the link) SARs were no linger being imported.
This stems from a company letter century realesed in late 99 that they could not import any more and were completely out of recievers. Many people beileve this letter was publicly displaced to increase sales.
2. The current SARs (like yours) are once again marked SAR (not Wasr10) but they are coming in as blanks and made into complete receivers in the US.
Wrong...this is how they are imported...
1. Rifles are built completely in Romanian, they are installed with a thumb hole stock. This reduced the number of evil features to 1, which allows a rifle to be completely of foreign manufactor(no US parts). This is why some of the rifles have crooked sights and stuff, low paid workers build these things.
2. Once in the country, the following happens:
A. Trigger, Disconector, Hammer, and Gaspiston are removed.
B. US made Trigger, Disconector, Hammer, and Gaspiston installed.
C. Thumb hole stock removed.(it is then shipped back to romanian, for instalation on the next set of rifles)
D. US made pistol grip installed
E. Foreign regular buttstock installed.
Notice the order of conversion, this is done so not at one time the rifle has the wrong number of parts to make it illegal when the second evil feature is installed, the pistol grip.
Also every reciever made must have its location of completion on. If they came in blank then the made in Cugir Romanain would be left off becuase the reciever is not a reciever until its more then 80% completed. Once the reicever is completed past the 80% mark it then becomes a "reciever" and must have the location that the reciever was completed. That is why when you purchase an 80% gun reciever it doesnt have to have the location of manufactor until it is 81% or more completed.
Also, a few days ago I just talked with a rep from a company that deals with new SARs...they informed me some new sample 2003 models had just arrived in country, and are getting to be really nice because Romanain is boosting standards becuase of NATO.
Go here for a run down on every thing:
http://linx310.nothingbutguns.com
1. It is NOT false. For a while (the time of the link) SARs were no linger being imported.
This stems from a company letter century realesed in late 99 that they could not import any more and were completely out of recievers. Many people beileve this letter was publicly displaced to increase sales.
2. The current SARs (like yours) are once again marked SAR (not Wasr10) but they are coming in as blanks and made into complete receivers in the US.
Wrong...this is how they are imported...
1. Rifles are built completely in Romanian, they are installed with a thumb hole stock. This reduced the number of evil features to 1, which allows a rifle to be completely of foreign manufactor(no US parts). This is why some of the rifles have crooked sights and stuff, low paid workers build these things.
2. Once in the country, the following happens:
A. Trigger, Disconector, Hammer, and Gaspiston are removed.
B. US made Trigger, Disconector, Hammer, and Gaspiston installed.
C. Thumb hole stock removed.(it is then shipped back to romanian, for instalation on the next set of rifles)
D. US made pistol grip installed
E. Foreign regular buttstock installed.
Notice the order of conversion, this is done so not at one time the rifle has the wrong number of parts to make it illegal when the second evil feature is installed, the pistol grip.
Also every reciever made must have its location of completion on. If they came in blank then the made in Cugir Romanain would be left off becuase the reciever is not a reciever until its more then 80% completed. Once the reicever is completed past the 80% mark it then becomes a "reciever" and must have the location that the reciever was completed. That is why when you purchase an 80% gun reciever it doesnt have to have the location of manufactor until it is 81% or more completed.
Also, a few days ago I just talked with a rep from a company that deals with new SARs...they informed me some new sample 2003 models had just arrived in country, and are getting to be really nice because Romanain is boosting standards becuase of NATO.
SteyrAUG
February 5, 2003, 04:30 PM
linx310, thanks I was told they were going the FMP route and coming in as blanks.
762x51
February 5, 2003, 04:49 PM
Thanks for taking the time to register and clear things up Linx. Much appreciated.
MAKOwner
February 6, 2003, 09:14 PM
Yeah, I was going to say my 2002 SAR2 has all the same markings as my 99 SAR1.
BTW, these rifles need little to nothing to be excellent AKs unless you got a real lemon. I refinished the stock on my SAR2 and it is a real beauty now. I had to de-trigger slap both guns, but they shoot perfectly now. Both have virtually 100% straight sights too. Great shooters. Several thousand rounds through my SAR1 without one single malfunction of any kind. Just shy of a 1000 through my SAR2 with the same lack of any malfunctions of any kind. If you care about finish so badly you're buying from the wrong family of guns to start with...
BTW, these rifles need little to nothing to be excellent AKs unless you got a real lemon. I refinished the stock on my SAR2 and it is a real beauty now. I had to de-trigger slap both guns, but they shoot perfectly now. Both have virtually 100% straight sights too. Great shooters. Several thousand rounds through my SAR1 without one single malfunction of any kind. Just shy of a 1000 through my SAR2 with the same lack of any malfunctions of any kind. If you care about finish so badly you're buying from the wrong family of guns to start with...
Intune
February 7, 2003, 12:08 PM
Well, I ordered my "poo" Rom SAR1 today from Shooters Wholesale in ID. 2002 model w/ten, thirty and forty rnd mags for $289.00. The store where I usually get stuff transferred to, the owner is out with flu so now I need to find an FFL to do the transfer. Called around this morn and some of these guys are amazing. $50.00 PLUS $10.00 background fee?????? One guy said he won't do them because he has to keep the paperwork for a minimum of 20 years. I heard it was 5 years but maybe it is 20. Already have the cashiers check & everthing but I guess I'll just have to wait 'till this guy returns to work. Bummed.
SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 12:27 PM
Intune, here is the problem. You are trying to order at "dealer price" from a wholesaler without the cost and inconvenience of pulling a FFL.
Why would ANYONE do that for you?
If I could get guns at "dealer price" transferred at $10.00 I'd never pull a FFL. I'd be able to skip license fees, code and zoning fees, occupational licenses, keeping records for 20 years (and yes it is 20, not 5), ATF inspections and the related overhead associated with running a business. Not to mention the endless parade of Gomers who honestly believe that a $10.00 "transfer fee" is gonna keep me in business for more than a month.
I don't transfer ANY firearm that comes from a wholesaler/FFL supplier directly to a customer. I will be happy to order the same firearm from one of my suppliers (the same damn wholesaler they were trying to get it from directly in the first place) and sell it to here somewhere around retail with the ridiculous notion of making a profit and running a business that actually pays it's bills.
But the ONLY things I transfer are the following:
People who bought a used/collectible gun from a auction or out of state dealer. This is NOT a wholesale/retail kind of transfer. I am simply helping them legally receive a firearm they already paid for on a deal they negotiated.
But some guy who flips through SGN and calls one of my wholesalers in the hopes of ordering "at cost" on my FFL is not a transfer situation. And contrary to popular opinion he is not in that case "doing the work" and my involvement is much more than 5 mins. of paperwork and a phone call.
Why would ANYONE do that for you?
If I could get guns at "dealer price" transferred at $10.00 I'd never pull a FFL. I'd be able to skip license fees, code and zoning fees, occupational licenses, keeping records for 20 years (and yes it is 20, not 5), ATF inspections and the related overhead associated with running a business. Not to mention the endless parade of Gomers who honestly believe that a $10.00 "transfer fee" is gonna keep me in business for more than a month.
I don't transfer ANY firearm that comes from a wholesaler/FFL supplier directly to a customer. I will be happy to order the same firearm from one of my suppliers (the same damn wholesaler they were trying to get it from directly in the first place) and sell it to here somewhere around retail with the ridiculous notion of making a profit and running a business that actually pays it's bills.
But the ONLY things I transfer are the following:
People who bought a used/collectible gun from a auction or out of state dealer. This is NOT a wholesale/retail kind of transfer. I am simply helping them legally receive a firearm they already paid for on a deal they negotiated.
But some guy who flips through SGN and calls one of my wholesalers in the hopes of ordering "at cost" on my FFL is not a transfer situation. And contrary to popular opinion he is not in that case "doing the work" and my involvement is much more than 5 mins. of paperwork and a phone call.
Intune
February 7, 2003, 01:03 PM
I see what you are saying however, this is from Auctionarms where he had a dutch aution for these and I called him. I didn't call Century, Joeken or Aimsurplus, which are true wholesales. I think Shooters Wholesale is just the name this guy goes by. My dealer has charged me $20 plus the $10 background check for past out of state orders which I feel is reasonable. He transferred a $2,000 Beretta o/u for me six months ago. TN state tax alone for that weapon is almost $200 if I ordered it through him. He had no problem with that. What was his involvement besides filling out the form and making the background check call? I even provided the overnight pouch for the paperwork. Am I out of line here?
Intune
February 7, 2003, 01:25 PM
I wanna open up a store right next to yours. I love this line- "Not to mention the endless parade of Gomers who honestly believe that a $10.00 "transfer fee" is gonna keep me in business for more than a month."
An endless parade at $10 a pop. Hmmm... How many "Gomers" could you march though in an hour doing that difficult 4478 form and phone call? One? Maybe three if you speed dial? Really hose them and make it $20.00! You turn down $200.00 an hour because...? I know, they're Gomers. How much DO you charge your non-Gomer customers?
An endless parade at $10 a pop. Hmmm... How many "Gomers" could you march though in an hour doing that difficult 4478 form and phone call? One? Maybe three if you speed dial? Really hose them and make it $20.00! You turn down $200.00 an hour because...? I know, they're Gomers. How much DO you charge your non-Gomer customers?
Intune
February 7, 2003, 01:32 PM
Oh, and the store that I normally use is a hardware store. He has racks of pruning shears and bolts not weapons. He just does the ordering and tranfers for his gomer customers. And yes, I have ordered brand new guns from him.
MAKOwner
February 7, 2003, 02:00 PM
Call me a Gomer but I do absolutely no business with a store that doesn't do reasonably priced transfers ($30 or less...). Plenty stores to choose from who do it if one doesn't want the money.
SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 02:48 PM
$200 an hour, now THAT is funnny.
And that is what everyone believes. That with sufficient volume you can make that much. Problem is the demand just isn't there.
And like I said before, I'm not a transfer dealer. I'm in the retail firearm business. That means I buy wholesale and sell retail. Well actually not, since NOBODY has ever gotten full MSRP for a firearm.
But I do sell them at a profit. I make sure that profit is sufficient that I can stay in business. That really is economics 101 and shouldn't even require explanation.
But my prices are very fair. Not only that I pretty much go far out of my way for my customers and am knowledgable on the firearms that interest them most. They uinderstand they pay for a service as well as a product. Easily 90% of all my business is repeat customers.
As for this:
I see what you are saying however, this is from Auctionarms where he had a dutch aution for these and I called him. I didn't call Century, Joeken or Aimsurplus, which are true wholesales. I think Shooters Wholesale is just the name this guy goes by.
If it were ME you came to, I'd offer to get you the same gun (which I would buy from a TRUE wholesaler) and sell to you with a profit margin. I imagine in the end the cost would be roughly the same as buying one from AA with a small transfer fee. The difference being larger profit margins for me and the continuation of my business to do it my way.
Now had it been something with NO dealer price (ie. a preban AK) then I'd glady do a transfer for you since that is NOT a new production firearm and DOES NOT take away from my business.
And that is what everyone believes. That with sufficient volume you can make that much. Problem is the demand just isn't there.
And like I said before, I'm not a transfer dealer. I'm in the retail firearm business. That means I buy wholesale and sell retail. Well actually not, since NOBODY has ever gotten full MSRP for a firearm.
But I do sell them at a profit. I make sure that profit is sufficient that I can stay in business. That really is economics 101 and shouldn't even require explanation.
But my prices are very fair. Not only that I pretty much go far out of my way for my customers and am knowledgable on the firearms that interest them most. They uinderstand they pay for a service as well as a product. Easily 90% of all my business is repeat customers.
As for this:
I see what you are saying however, this is from Auctionarms where he had a dutch aution for these and I called him. I didn't call Century, Joeken or Aimsurplus, which are true wholesales. I think Shooters Wholesale is just the name this guy goes by.
If it were ME you came to, I'd offer to get you the same gun (which I would buy from a TRUE wholesaler) and sell to you with a profit margin. I imagine in the end the cost would be roughly the same as buying one from AA with a small transfer fee. The difference being larger profit margins for me and the continuation of my business to do it my way.
Now had it been something with NO dealer price (ie. a preban AK) then I'd glady do a transfer for you since that is NOT a new production firearm and DOES NOT take away from my business.
Wildalaska
February 7, 2003, 04:10 PM
I just had a guy get angry at me becuse I wouldnt transfer a gun hes buying off the net..
Reason..I have the same gun in stock...
Reason..I have the same gun in stock...
Intune
February 7, 2003, 04:53 PM
Surely economics 101 would include the chapter in which a parade of "Gomers" with $10 in hand RESULTS in a profit that you weren't making before they lined up to hand you their money. AND it would probably also have the chapter covering the fact that they are IN your store which may influence them into making an impulse buy of some accessory or firearm ADDING to the profit that you weren't seeing when you looked at them as "Gomers" to be shooed from the premises. Otherwise, you get to keep your 100% profit margin of $0. The store that wanted my $60.00 for the transfer & backgrnd check had an SAR 1. Sure did. $399.00 before tax. He got to keep his profit margin on that one also. The man in ID that is selling me one for $289.00 is NOT losing money or doing me a favor. Granted, he may not have the overhead that you do but you know what? He and the hardware storeowner are willing to take my money in increments that are comfortable for all parties involved. And filling out the one page form @ $20 a pop for "Gomers" and non-"Gomers" alike is not beneath them. They are businessmen who look at us and see customers or clients, not "Gomers". Thus, they realize revenue where others cringe at the sound of "will you do an FFL transfer for me please?" Whenever the register rings out with kaching, THAT is business.
Intune
February 7, 2003, 05:11 PM
Wildalaska, I agree. If my dealer had this SAR rifle on his shelf where I could actually check it out and liked it and it was within $50 or so of the lowest price I had seen, I would buy it from him. On a higher priced firearm that $$ would rise. But to be $100 more on a $300 firearm is out of the question.
SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 05:27 PM
Intune, just to clarify a few things you may not have understood.
1. By endless parade I certainly did not mean to suggest volume enough to sustain a business. IF I enjoyed the volume associated with Wal Mart I could run a profitable business at $10.00 mark ups. That is NOT the case.
NOBODY does that kind of volume. The largest guns store in town with the best promotion, visibility and advertising doesn't get that kind of volume.
And at gun shows, the $10.00 transfer boys do do a few more sales than I. But when you add up who made how much at the end of the day, even at 2x the sales I made we still made about the same amount of money.
I run my business in a very specific way. I run it with the intent to stay in business. This way I can do cool things like pay the rent, bills and eat food.
Most novice FFLs try and go the $10.00 transfer route thinking they will corner the market. Problem is they quickly learn there are 50 more "transfer FFLs" in their area and they all end up fighting for crumbs. Then when their income is not enough to live on they get day jobs and most give up the gun business as not profitable. And for every 20 who don't renew there are 30 more willing to fight over the scraps.
They can have it. The transfer business is a dead end.
As for "Gomers." I don't refer to my customers as Gomers. If I did 90% wouldn't constitute repeat customers.
A "Gomer" is not a customer. A "Gomer" is a guy who has ZERO interest in your business. He is a guy who want to buy AT dealer price without pulling a FFL. Period.
I have no iterest in "Gomers" and there are more than enough "transfer FFLs" for me to refer them too. I am happy to not have to deal with them. They are impossibly cheap, take up the MOST amount of your time and are as a whole a giant pain in the ***. I don't need the stress, hassle or aggravation associated with these guys. Let the "transfer FFLs" listen to them bitch, piss and moan.
Thankfully the vast majority of gun owners are NOT Gomers.
If someone is a "customer" of mine, you'd probably be surpised the lengths I go to to make them happy and take care of them. That is because I like those guys.
1. By endless parade I certainly did not mean to suggest volume enough to sustain a business. IF I enjoyed the volume associated with Wal Mart I could run a profitable business at $10.00 mark ups. That is NOT the case.
NOBODY does that kind of volume. The largest guns store in town with the best promotion, visibility and advertising doesn't get that kind of volume.
And at gun shows, the $10.00 transfer boys do do a few more sales than I. But when you add up who made how much at the end of the day, even at 2x the sales I made we still made about the same amount of money.
I run my business in a very specific way. I run it with the intent to stay in business. This way I can do cool things like pay the rent, bills and eat food.
Most novice FFLs try and go the $10.00 transfer route thinking they will corner the market. Problem is they quickly learn there are 50 more "transfer FFLs" in their area and they all end up fighting for crumbs. Then when their income is not enough to live on they get day jobs and most give up the gun business as not profitable. And for every 20 who don't renew there are 30 more willing to fight over the scraps.
They can have it. The transfer business is a dead end.
As for "Gomers." I don't refer to my customers as Gomers. If I did 90% wouldn't constitute repeat customers.
A "Gomer" is not a customer. A "Gomer" is a guy who has ZERO interest in your business. He is a guy who want to buy AT dealer price without pulling a FFL. Period.
I have no iterest in "Gomers" and there are more than enough "transfer FFLs" for me to refer them too. I am happy to not have to deal with them. They are impossibly cheap, take up the MOST amount of your time and are as a whole a giant pain in the ***. I don't need the stress, hassle or aggravation associated with these guys. Let the "transfer FFLs" listen to them bitch, piss and moan.
Thankfully the vast majority of gun owners are NOT Gomers.
If someone is a "customer" of mine, you'd probably be surpised the lengths I go to to make them happy and take care of them. That is because I like those guys.
AK103K
February 7, 2003, 05:33 PM
The boy I deal with at our local store will order for $15-25 over dealer list plus shipping. I've dealt with him a long time and he has always been fair with me. I've also sold my share of guns on consignment with him too. He has always said that they dont really make thier money on the guns themselves, but on the accessories, ammo, clothes, etc. He's not starving, far from it. His store is always busy with a returning group of people, so he must be doing something right.
SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 05:40 PM
Yep, that is a common strategy of large stores to make their real money on accessories and related items.
And those with a range make the difference on range fees, memberships and reloads.
I don't have a big store so huge inventories of accessories are not a option for me.
I have no range so that is a no go.
I deal primarily in quality firearms. So that is where my money has to come from. I tend to specialize in unique and custom configurations that are not available anywhere else.
If I tried to compete with "transfer" dealers on $10.00 tansfers I would not last a year.
And those with a range make the difference on range fees, memberships and reloads.
I don't have a big store so huge inventories of accessories are not a option for me.
I have no range so that is a no go.
I deal primarily in quality firearms. So that is where my money has to come from. I tend to specialize in unique and custom configurations that are not available anywhere else.
If I tried to compete with "transfer" dealers on $10.00 tansfers I would not last a year.
Intune
February 7, 2003, 06:02 PM
SteyrAUG, I agree. That someone would expect you to order them a firearm at cost & hand it to them for $10 IS a gomer. However, with that said, I think the dealer with the $400 pricetag on a weapon that cost him maybe what, $250? is a gouger. Neither G's are fun to deal with! )) (He was willing to take off ten bucks for cash, nice guy.) We all look for that comfort zone. Oh, that dealer also has a Barrett .50 I think I'll go back & check on the price just for the chuckle.
SteelyDan
February 7, 2003, 11:10 PM
SteyrAUG, just curious. If one of your regular or repeat customers asked you to do a transfer for $20, would you do it?
SteyrAUG
February 8, 2003, 12:59 AM
SteelyDan, when a customer of mine wants a specific firearm they tell me what they are looking for and I research the price and give them a quote.
I reciprocate by patronizing their businesses as well. One of my better customers owns a hardware store. When I need a Dewalt drill I don't research the dealer price and ask him to transfer one to me "at cost" for a small fee.
He and the vast majority of my customers extend to me the same courtesy and consideration.
I hope this answers your question.
Now for my regulars I often do promos and gimme's just to thank them. When all is said and done I make virtually "Burger King" money but it is a thank you so it don't matter.
I also do internet Group Buys which allow people to get guns very cheap. I'm currently doing this one:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=166026&w=searchPop
I worked out an arrangement with Mark Serbu and I am able to sell his guns at "dealer price." As a result, people who might not otherwise be able to afford a .50 are now getting one.
So it's not a matter of me trying to "rake the customers for every nickle." It is a matter of me being a responsible business owner and insuring that the business will have a future. There just is no future in "transfers." Once you become known as a "transfer dealer" people will expect those terms on everything you do and that will be the end of your business.
I reciprocate by patronizing their businesses as well. One of my better customers owns a hardware store. When I need a Dewalt drill I don't research the dealer price and ask him to transfer one to me "at cost" for a small fee.
He and the vast majority of my customers extend to me the same courtesy and consideration.
I hope this answers your question.
Now for my regulars I often do promos and gimme's just to thank them. When all is said and done I make virtually "Burger King" money but it is a thank you so it don't matter.
I also do internet Group Buys which allow people to get guns very cheap. I'm currently doing this one:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=166026&w=searchPop
I worked out an arrangement with Mark Serbu and I am able to sell his guns at "dealer price." As a result, people who might not otherwise be able to afford a .50 are now getting one.
So it's not a matter of me trying to "rake the customers for every nickle." It is a matter of me being a responsible business owner and insuring that the business will have a future. There just is no future in "transfers." Once you become known as a "transfer dealer" people will expect those terms on everything you do and that will be the end of your business.
SteelyDan
February 8, 2003, 03:38 AM
SteyrAUG, I don't want to pick nits, but you really didn't answer the question.
Let me be clear, I'm about as pro-small businesses as anyone, but at the same time I think those businesses are at risk of being left behind if they can't adopt to the reality of the internet. So, if you don't care to do a $20 transfer for a stranger, I'd say, fine, that's your choice and I'll support it. But if I were a regular customer of yours, and I saw something in Shotgun News that I wanted, and asked you to do a $20 transfer and you refused, I'd probably start increasing my driving radius when I looked for a place to buy. For what it's worth, five of my last six purchases were from a local dealer, and my AK varient was from a wholesaler with a $20 transfer fee.
But if someone like me, who wants to support his local dealer, is willing to do the internet thing when it will save some serious money, I don't understand why "my" dealer won't help me out. Especially when every time I go into the shop I always find one or two or three or four things I have to get. I just think you're taking too hard a line on this. But then I don't want you telling me how to run my business, so maybe I shouldn't tell you how to run yours.:)
Let me be clear, I'm about as pro-small businesses as anyone, but at the same time I think those businesses are at risk of being left behind if they can't adopt to the reality of the internet. So, if you don't care to do a $20 transfer for a stranger, I'd say, fine, that's your choice and I'll support it. But if I were a regular customer of yours, and I saw something in Shotgun News that I wanted, and asked you to do a $20 transfer and you refused, I'd probably start increasing my driving radius when I looked for a place to buy. For what it's worth, five of my last six purchases were from a local dealer, and my AK varient was from a wholesaler with a $20 transfer fee.
But if someone like me, who wants to support his local dealer, is willing to do the internet thing when it will save some serious money, I don't understand why "my" dealer won't help me out. Especially when every time I go into the shop I always find one or two or three or four things I have to get. I just think you're taking too hard a line on this. But then I don't want you telling me how to run my business, so maybe I shouldn't tell you how to run yours.:)
SteyrAUG
February 8, 2003, 02:25 PM
SteelyDan, since you didn't discern it the answer is No.
This is because I am not a "transfer" dealer. I am a retail firearms business. And my customers understand that and they understand they are buying a service as well as a firearm.
I am not a "transfer" dealer because it is a blue print for a "going out of business" sale. I understand that sounds crazy but I have seen it time and again. The bottom line is you just cannot survive on "transfer" sales, NOBODY gets sufficient volume.
Internet sales have NOTHING to do with anything. I know guys who do nothing but wholesale + $10.00 transfers and ALL of their business is Inet. They are listed on every gun board and SGN, etc. They routinely lose money on the majority of their transactions and all work day jobs to feed their families.
It is a dead end. It works for KMart (well they are filling bankruptcy) but no firearm business will ever get the kind of volume necessary to pull it off.
This is because I am not a "transfer" dealer. I am a retail firearms business. And my customers understand that and they understand they are buying a service as well as a firearm.
I am not a "transfer" dealer because it is a blue print for a "going out of business" sale. I understand that sounds crazy but I have seen it time and again. The bottom line is you just cannot survive on "transfer" sales, NOBODY gets sufficient volume.
Internet sales have NOTHING to do with anything. I know guys who do nothing but wholesale + $10.00 transfers and ALL of their business is Inet. They are listed on every gun board and SGN, etc. They routinely lose money on the majority of their transactions and all work day jobs to feed their families.
It is a dead end. It works for KMart (well they are filling bankruptcy) but no firearm business will ever get the kind of volume necessary to pull it off.
SteelyDan
February 9, 2003, 02:10 AM
SteyrAUG, let's be fair here, the reason I didn't "discern" the answer is that you avoided the question.
As for your decision not to do transfers, hey, fine, that's your choice, and I truly hope you remain successful. But I'm having a little trouble reconciling your claims that you "go far out of my way for my customers" and "If someone is a 'customer' of mine, you'd probably be surpised the lengths I go to to make them happy" with the fact that you won't do a transfer for a regular customer.
I'm guessing you're a stubborn old cuss. I like stubborn old cusses. Heck, I'm one myself. I'm just throwing out the idea that you might at least consider doing the transfers, at least for regular customers.
As for your decision not to do transfers, hey, fine, that's your choice, and I truly hope you remain successful. But I'm having a little trouble reconciling your claims that you "go far out of my way for my customers" and "If someone is a 'customer' of mine, you'd probably be surpised the lengths I go to to make them happy" with the fact that you won't do a transfer for a regular customer.
I'm guessing you're a stubborn old cuss. I like stubborn old cusses. Heck, I'm one myself. I'm just throwing out the idea that you might at least consider doing the transfers, at least for regular customers.
SteyrAUG
February 9, 2003, 07:27 PM
Sorry SD, I really did think this would answer the question.
One of my better customers owns a hardware store. When I need a Dewalt drill I don't research the dealer price and ask him to transfer one to me "at cost" for a small fee.
He and the vast majority of my customers extend to me the same courtesy and consideration.
I hope this answers your question.
I don't feel I'm being unreasonable by asking they extend to me the same courtesy I extend to them. When a plumber is replacing my toilet I don't ask him what his "dealer cost" is, I ask what he charges for a replacement. When I order a pizza I know from a buddy that they cost about $3.00 to make but I pay $10.00 anyway.
And like I said before, attempting ot order "at cost" from a wholesale supplier (which all require a FFL to place orders) is not a transfer. It is somebody trying to backdoor my by ordering "at cost" on my license and I just don't appreciate that. A transfer is somebody who negotiated a private deal from a collector or individual and needs a FFL to receive the firearms from out of state.
THAT is a transfer and I will gladly do it.
One of my better customers owns a hardware store. When I need a Dewalt drill I don't research the dealer price and ask him to transfer one to me "at cost" for a small fee.
He and the vast majority of my customers extend to me the same courtesy and consideration.
I hope this answers your question.
I don't feel I'm being unreasonable by asking they extend to me the same courtesy I extend to them. When a plumber is replacing my toilet I don't ask him what his "dealer cost" is, I ask what he charges for a replacement. When I order a pizza I know from a buddy that they cost about $3.00 to make but I pay $10.00 anyway.
And like I said before, attempting ot order "at cost" from a wholesale supplier (which all require a FFL to place orders) is not a transfer. It is somebody trying to backdoor my by ordering "at cost" on my license and I just don't appreciate that. A transfer is somebody who negotiated a private deal from a collector or individual and needs a FFL to receive the firearms from out of state.
THAT is a transfer and I will gladly do it.
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