Kahr Problems


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phivo
March 22, 2004, 12:20 AM
My friend bought a Kahr P40 last weekend that has been nothing but trouble. For starters it has trouble simply charging the gun without jamming let alone shooting it without double feeds and other various jams. To top it off the front sight slides in its groves and actually fell out yesterday. I advised him to send it to Kahr. Anyone have similar problems or other suggestions. It was his first gun purchase and has obviously been a bad experience. Thanks.

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wally
March 22, 2004, 12:29 AM
Nothing else to do but send it back. Bummer to get a lemon, but Kahr seems pretty good about setting things right.

You do have to pull the slide back to load the first round. Simply releasing the slide stop rarely feeds from a full mag. I think this is mentioned in the manual, if I recall correctly.

They were very quck to send me a replacement mag catch after the metal insert (bearing surface) fell out.

--wally.

phivo
March 22, 2004, 12:38 AM
I'm no expert, but I've tried loading it all sorts of different ways. I was trained to always pull the slide back and not use the slide release. I've tried both mags it came with. I've tried a full mag, one round, a few rounds....I think it's just a lemon. But I've heard lots of good things about the Kahrs. Although I wasn't a fan of the long trigger pull.

wally
March 22, 2004, 12:58 AM
What ammo? Did you try more than one brand? Mine's not finikey, but I suspect you just got a lemon and I wouldn't waste time messing with it, send it back to Kahr for repair.

As to the trigger, I shoot my Kahr more accurately than I do my Glock 19, despite the much shorter sight radius. Glock gets my vote for the worse trigger on a "brand name" gun.

--wally.

phivo
March 22, 2004, 01:17 AM
I tried a brand name (can't remember which) and a reload (that I have used for over a year without problems in my glock 22) in addition to the Federal my friend bought to carry and they all had the same problems.

I recently fell in love my new Kimber TLE/RL II and really like the almost non-existant trigger pull. But I have to carry my glock at work. I've never had problems with it, I trust it completely, and I'm used to it. I like being able to pull the slack out so it's short when I'm ready to fire.

That being said, the Kahr shot great when it would feed a round. The instruction book it came with said that it needed 200 rounds to be broken in. Like I said, I'm no expert and have never dealt with a Kahr but the feeding problems are far more than breaking the gun in right? Either way it's going back cause of the front sight.

fastbolt
March 22, 2004, 01:17 AM
One of our guys just qualified with his new P40. He made a point of taking it to a local range and firing 200 rounds through it before coming down to qualify with it. He said that the only problems he experienced were when he was trying to use some PMC ammunition ... no surprise ... but that it fed and functioned just fine with UMC and Winchester ammunition.

Since it was a quiet evening at the qualification range I gave him a chance to shoot some additional rounds through it afterward, running him through some shooting & movement drills. We were using the standard Remington Express 180gr JHP ammunition we use for training, and the pistol functioned just fine during the time he was using it at the range.

mini14jac
March 22, 2004, 07:41 AM
With small guns, chambering technique is important.

Try shoving the gun rapidly away with the shooting hand, while yanking the slide sharply back with the other hand.

After practice, you make it look easy to chamber a round in the most difficult gun.
I taught this method to my wife, and 3 daughters, now they can all charge any auto that I hand to them.

Obiwan
March 22, 2004, 07:53 AM
The guys in Tech Support at KAhr admit that the P series have been problematic.

Send it in

wally
March 22, 2004, 08:25 AM
phivo,

Your Kimber TLE II would get my vote for the best trigger on a current production gun. I think you need custom work to do better with anything you can buy new today.

I've lots of guns I enjoy shooting, but at the end of the day the 1911 remains my number one choice.

--wally.

cratz2
March 22, 2004, 08:52 AM
I've never shot a full size P40, but I've honestly never even heard of such problems on recent Kahrs... sights falling off... multiple failures to feed different ammo... I'd be ticked!

On the other hand, I've shot several Kahrs and they're generally smooth feeding guns.

Hope they fix it up right for your friend... Was this a brand new gun or bought used?

norfdet893
March 22, 2004, 09:08 AM
I once owned a P40 but got rid of it. I bought mine used. I could chamber rounds but mine would jam with the slide to the rear after firing about 7-10 rounds. It would jam to the point that it required a rubber mallot to get it back into battery. I sent it back to Kahr and they said that on early production models that there was a problem with how the barrels were cut. There was too much metal on the top of the barrel (almost an oval). When the slide would go into battery, it would cause the top of the hole where the barrel goes through the frame to jam on to the top of the slide. I sent it back and they fixed it and even upgraded the sites to nite sights. They said that they had to remove some metal from the top of the barrel and that the slide stop had since been upgraded. When I shot it again I was having problems releasing the magazine and the front site fell off. I called them and sent it back. They said that it required a larger than standard front site and that the magazine catch spring had also since been upgraded. Needless to say when I got it back the second time I had lost confidence in the pistol and sold it and replaced it with a Glock 27. There was also a problem with the frame pin over the trigger shaving plastic when it was fired. I was disappointed because I liked the slim profile of the pistol. I have since bought a PM9 and have had zero problems with it. Kahr has an excellent customer service team and if you send it to them they will make it right. In my case I just didn't trust the pistol anymore.

RealGun
March 22, 2004, 07:26 PM
To comment on Kahrs in general, I had a T9 and now a T40 (the big ones) and neither gun has ever malfunctioned. I reload at the range by releasing the slide and have never had a problem doing that. Range ammo is typically Sellier & Bellot. I plan to add an MP9 or MK9. Great guns. BTW the trigger pull is sweet for a DAO. The comment on long trigger pull could only be valid to me relative to SA.

My Springfield 1911A1 Loaded, which is now perfect, had a bad problem with feeds and stovepiping on any ammo I tried and in spite of ramp polishing. It got a new extractor at the factory to finally fix it. Sweet gun.

RealGun
March 22, 2004, 07:40 PM
To comment on Kahrs in general, I had a T9 and now a T40 (the big ones) and neither gun has ever malfunctioned. I reload at the range by releasing the slide and have never had a problem doing that. Range ammo is typically Sellier & Bellot. I plan to add an MP9 or MK9. Great guns. BTW the trigger pull is sweet for a DAO. The comment on long trigger pull could only be valid to me relative to SA.

My Springfield 1911A1 Loaded, which is now perfect, had a bad problem with feeds and stovepiping on any ammo I tried and in spite of ramp polishing. It got a new extractor at the factory to finally fix it. Sweet gun.

tok
March 22, 2004, 07:47 PM
I did quite a bit of reading before buying my PM-9, and it seems like the most common break in issue on the Kahrs is the slide not returning to full battery. You can just tap the slide in into battery by hand and fire. Mine did this quite a bit.
For about the first 50 rounds, I also had the problem of the first round of a magazine jamming into the feed ramp and getting stuck. These were regular jacketed Winchester White Box rounds too, not hollowpoints or anything.
The feed ramp on the Kahrs seems to be the source of a lot of problems. Perhaps its steeper than usual due to the guns small size.
By 200 rounds, my gun was functioning normally. I still polished the feed ramp and barrel hood, and it made a noticeable difference in how smooth the slide operates chambering the first round.
If it wasn't for the issue with the sight, I'd say not to send it back until he's sure he has over 200 rounds through it, but since it has to go back anyhow, might as well let them do the fiddling.

Kahr owners do seem to have a lot of love 'em or hate 'em experiences.

bad_dad_brad
March 22, 2004, 08:00 PM
I have an MK-9 - the older model type. No problems with quality short nosed 9mm ammo (forget 147 SXTs! - Win Silvertips work good). Solid little pistol.

Regarding charging the pistol, always load a magazine with the slide held back by the slide stop. Then after seating the mag, pull back on the slide a bit and let her slam in to battery. This works.

The Kahr has very tight tolerances and you cannot baby her.

The other thing is, because of these tight tolerances, the Kahr must be broken in by firing at least 200 rounds before she is reliable. And keep her clean. Replace the recoil spring after 2000 rounds.

arinvolvo
March 22, 2004, 08:50 PM
Well, ill have my lightly used Mk9 on wednesday...I hope that these break in bugs have been worked out. Even if, i think the 1st thing i am going to do is go over it with the dremel, and fluff her up a bit.:D

Shes gonna get a ramp and throat job and she doesnt even know it yet!!!

*snicker* "throat job" *butthead laugh* uhuhuhuhh

Waxed Canvas
March 22, 2004, 09:04 PM
A Kahr is not worth the price and they are bad about putting pistols on the market that have not had the bugs worked out. I got a K9 that choked, basically just shut down, after 40 rounds-----extrator, mag release spring, etc-----on factory ammo.

arinvolvo
March 22, 2004, 09:16 PM
I do agree that kahr is, in general over priced..However, the the market for the diminutive pistols has influenced the pricing.

However, you must also realize that in the scheme of things, Kahr is a very new company. Thier pistol production heritage only dates back a few years. Id rather see them go through growing pains, than to see an elder company such as S&W produce sigmas.:barf:

because it DOES seem that when Quality control is good, the kahrs are top notch pieces. I have a feeling that kahr will go down in history as a first rate firearms manufacturer. They just need some time.

RealGun
March 23, 2004, 05:40 AM
Waxed Canvas wrote:
A Kahr is not worth the price and they are bad about putting pistols on the market that have not had the bugs worked out. I got a K9 that choked, basically just shut down, after 40 rounds-----extrator, mag release spring, etc-----on factory ammo.

[RealGun]

Okay. So what about the rest of the story? You know...how it ends up with you having a good gun. Every company has duds. A fair review is in regard to percentages, assuming there is a valid survey.

Personally, I didn't find another gun in as big a caliber that was as concealable while decent looking too. The price seemed okay to me. Things are too expensive when you can't afford them. I give some priority to buying American products when competitive. All American products are pricey, because everyone wants to make $30 an hour but pay others $5. They also have to insure against lawsuits, that we are so are prone to filing.

I am not comfortable buying used guns. I believe I am generally in a better position to have one made right if I buy it new.

I could say that a $2000 1911 isn't worth the price, but I'll bet that would be a gun that could be loved. People buy premium products because they can. Having the right gun is pretty darned important, once you get past the better-than-none stage.

mini14jac
March 23, 2004, 08:01 AM
Yeah, I get tired of arguing this one.

To say that Kahrs are overpriced in today's handgun market is a joke.
Do a search on "Kimber" on www.1911forums.com.
How is a Kahr overpriced at $500, yet a Sig is a good value at $700?
Uh Huh.
At least some Americans are earning part of the money spent on a Kahr.

In my opinion, most quality handguns are overpriced.
And they all turn out occasional lemons.

With most guns made by Kahr, do you get the same quality, workmanship, and reliability as other $500+ guns, (Glock, H&K, Sig, S&W, etc)?
Yes, you do.

:rolleyes:

Obiwan
March 23, 2004, 08:18 AM
My P-9 would not make it through 2 mags without a malfunction

Often it was the case stuck under the extractor...sometimes a failure to go into battery.

With 6 different types of factory ammo and over 500 rounds

It made 3 trips back to KAhr before we agreed to give up and they sent me a new weapon...and MK9 Elite w/ NS...which was flawless from the start.

I have no use for an undependable pistol.....


It got real old real fast....several wasted trips to the range

I will never be that patient again...doesn't work ...send it in.

phivo
March 26, 2004, 03:23 PM
Thanks for all the input. My buddy sent it to Kahr and they already called him to tell him they received it and were familiar with the problems and how to fix them so he should get it back pretty quick.

fastbolt
March 26, 2004, 11:09 PM
Glad your friend is going to get his problems addressed, and hopefully resolved ...

Funny how this is something that's sometimes mentioned in threads about Kahr's, though, namely that the company is familiar with the cause of the problem(s) and knows how to fix them. :uhoh: :scrutiny:

My friend who owns the new PM9 has been trying to sell it. He simply won't accept erratic and unreliable functioning from a new weapon, after a couple of range sessions, and especially one which costs so much in the first place. He's been spoiled by many years of flawless functioning from his issued S&W and personally owned HK.

I can say that the last 3 Kahr .40's that came through our range, and which I also handled and fired, in addition to qualifying the owners with them, all exhibited reliable functioning. I can't say the same for the last 2-3 9mm Kahrs, although I saw someone complete the 36-round CCW course of fire using a P9 the other night, without experiencing any malfunctions.

wardog
March 26, 2004, 11:54 PM
Just sent my PM9 back to Kahr.

Many instances of the slide not going fully into battery. Even after 400 rounds or so. It seems (on mine at least) that the recoil spring loses all strength just before the slide completely closes.

RealGun
March 27, 2004, 05:56 AM
The problem I would see is that anecdotes about problems or exceptional reliability do not constitute a useful survey nor form a fair characterization of the pistol or the company. if I wanted to, I could make the most idolized company or pistol sound like crap. I could also make a pistol or company sound much better than it really is. All I can conclude is that there are good ones, bad ones, and that I am one of the lucky ones. I think the most useful anecdotes are those about how Kahr fixed the problem.

I would agree about the need for recalls on "known problems", keeping in mind that having that policy would raise the prices. The alternative is to wait until a problem is reported and to address it quickly without charge. As we see here, spin control does matter, so the low profile approach does have its merits.

Boy, I would not think much of someone selling a pistol that was known not to function properly, especially when they were free to return it to Kahr to have it fixed.

fastbolt
March 27, 2004, 04:30 PM
Boy, I would not think much of someone selling a pistol that was known not to function properly, especially when they were free to return it to Kahr to have it fixed.

If that was directed toward my friend, you can relax ... He's not the kind of guy to deliberately pass on a known problem to someone else without explaining everything to them beforehand. Sure, another person in his place might very well decide to have Kahr examine the pistol and make any repairs or corrections needed before selling it ...

I once owned a Charter Arms .44 Special Bulldog in which the cylinder and trigger would repeatedly lock up, both during actual shooting, and also in dry-fire conditions. Instead of getting rid of it, I asked the head armorer at work to look at it. He'd once done some nice work on another CA Bulldog for one of the guys, and I'd hoped he could correct whatever was wrong. Well, after repeated, fruitless attempts to get the revolver to function, he pronounced it a doorstop and washed his hands of it. Okay, admittedly, someone familiar with working on S&W and Colt service revolvers might understandably consider C/A revolvers to be a bit "less" refined when it came to fit, finish, manufacture, design, and so on & so forth ... ;)

So, he recommended I return the gun to the factory and see if they could do any better, since they'd built the :cuss: gun.

I think it was after the third time I got it back from the factory, with the then-familiar letter explaining the "problem" had been fixed ... and the cylinder immediately locked up tight as a drum while dry-firing it, standing right there at the counter of the gunstore that had handled the shipping for me, after I'd just removed it from the box from its last trip back to the factory ... that I traded the gun off to the gunstore. They had a gunsmith that appeared bored, so perhaps they could get the gun to function someday. They didn't seem to care one way or the other that the factory hadn't been able to correct whatever problem existed, but they knew about the condition when I traded it in ... and apparently they had a lot of confidence in their gunsmith. I have NO reason to think for a moment that they'd simply sell the gun as used and "As-Is" ...

My point is that I wouldn't willingly go through that experience with another Charter Arms revolver. IF I were silly enough to ever buy another one ... and it functioned in any manner similar to the previous couple of .44 Bulldogs I've owned ... I wouldn't even bother to have anyone try to fix it. I'd just trade it off ... AND I'd inform the prospective buyer and/or deadler (I'm in CA, you know) of my reasons for wanting rid of the gun. I intend to shortcut this potential situation and simply never buy another one ... but back to the subject at hand ...

Now, modern pistols can often require some minor repairs, parts replacement, "fitting" of some part or another, etc., etc., even when NIB. That's not uncommon, regardless of WHO makes the pistol. It happens. Sometimes minor problems occur which can be diagnosed and easily corrected. That's why manufacturers have repair technicians/gunsmiths, commercial gunsmiths become "authorized warranty repair stations" for various makes, and manufacturers offer "armorer" training & certification for L/E agencies & Security companies that use their weapons.

Of course, sometimes a particular example may simply require replacement after the manufacturer has determined that it can't reasonably be made to operate and function as intended. We've all read about that happening at one time or another, even among members of these types of forums. That's one of the nice things about dealing with reputable manufacturers, isn't it? If they can't make it right in one way, they make it right in another way. That's why customer service is as important as the original customer sale.

I agree that anecdotal stories are just that ... and sometimes they take on more the aspect of "bashing " and "rumor mongering", than being reasonably useful for anything. Too many folks are willing to "bad mouth" any particular manufacturer, make, model, design or caliber of firearm for reasons which may be "personal" ... and may, or may not, be based upon "reasonable" circumstances ... or, they may simply enjoy "bashing" someone else's favored purchase.

Not nice ... let alone helpful.

On the other hand, like many other folks that work as firearms instructors and armorers, I DO tend to watch and remember the things we encounter and actually see for ourselves. Sometimes this may run counter to "prevailing popular product-bashing & rumor-mongering", and sometimes it may follow simialr reported occurrences. In the last instance we generally start to look into it, and may contact the involved manufacturer(s) to inquire into what they know about it. This can often result in a very professional degree of interest, co-operation and assistance in resolving a potential problem or condition, and may likely result in an improvement in the involved product ... whether it involves the firearm's manufacturer or an otuside parts vendor/supllier. It doesn't have to mean a "recall" results, though. That's a call for the manufacturer to make.

As a couple of very experienced guys ... and L/E armorer and armorer/gunsmith ... once told me, almost 98% of most semiauto pistol malfunctions and "problems" can eventually be attributed to either the shooter (by action, or omission of some required action), or the ammunition ...

Glaring examples of this can be seen most any day of the week at some range or another. I see it all the time ...

The rest of the time? We fix the gun, or have it returned to the manufacturer if it's something that can't be corrected by an agency armorer.

And if it matters ... I have related my favorable observations and personal experiences with metal-framed Kahrs, particularly in .40 S&W, but these are admittedly few in number, and I encourage everyone who asks to research the guns for themselves ... rent them, if possible ... and make their own informed decision.

Handguns are tools of the trade in our circumstances ... either issued Safety Equipment or personally owned firearms being authorized as off duty and/or Secondary weapons. This is too important of an issue to allow any potential "personal prejudices" and "favorites" to become involved. I've provided a lot of effort in helping some folks become better skilled at using their chosen Kahr off duty weapons to the best of their abilities ... and I'll continue to do so. Just because I don't happen to personally like the long DAO operation of some pistols, it doesn't mean I can't help those that DO like them ... That's what it's all about, when all is said and done.

I'd like nothing better to read about someone sending their gun into the factory for diagnosis and repair of some unknown "problem", and have it returned in such condition that it's forever more BORINGLY reliable.

Stay well ... and remember that frequent, proper & safe PRACTICE can't really be over-emphasized ... ;)
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