Upgrade cylinder rod


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BowerR64
August 18, 2013, 09:31 PM
Is there an upgrade rod like the colt with the little grooves in it to help move away fouling?

Has anyone tried to cut some little sots in a rem cylinder rod for this?

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swathdiver
August 18, 2013, 09:40 PM
People do it but why? I pull the cylinder after two or three cycles of six and rub it down with a bore buttered gun rag. After seven cylinders when I was new at it, my gun never slowed down or jammed but the pin was stubborn as all get out to remove until it was soaked in water for a few minutes.

BowerR64
August 18, 2013, 09:42 PM
People do it but why? I pull the cylinder after two or three cycles of six and rub it down with a bore buttered gun rag. After seven cylinders when I was new at it, my gun never slowed down or jammed but the pin was stubborn as all get out to remove until it was soaked in water for a few minutes.
because at times i have to pound it out it gets so tight its impossible

Also those grooves can hold oil, thats another plus to them

whughett
August 22, 2013, 10:18 PM
You might already know this but you should not use a petrol based lubricant on parts subjected to heavy fouling. I use bore butter,its the same stuff found in wonder wads, or at least it smells the same.

BowerR64
August 22, 2013, 10:23 PM
I use jojoba oil and wonder lube, think this stuff is ok ive read it in other articles but im not sure if its still good enough.

The problem i have is that when ever i shoot the colt it never seems to get the same amount of lock up from fouling as the remington. I figured it was due to the rings on the cylinder shaft sort of scooping away the fouling

Driftwood Johnson
August 23, 2013, 12:26 AM
Howdy

I have cut grooves onto the cylinder pin of both of my 1858 Remmies. I chucked the pins into the chuck of my drill press and spun it while carefully cutting grooves with a narrow file. You have to be careful not to cut too much and weaken the pin.

Frankly, the grooves do not help much.

I have written extensively about this. The reason Remmies bind up is because there is no cylinder bushing on the front of the cylinder to deflect away fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. Yes, the clearance cuts on the arbor of a Colt style C&B do help, they provide clearance for fouling, and present less bearing surface for the cylinder to rub against. But the real reason the Colt style guns do not bind up so much is because the arbor is such a large diameter. More surface area to spread the fouling out over.

BowerR64
August 23, 2013, 12:48 AM
Howdy

I have cut grooves onto the cylinder pin of both of my 1858 Remmies. I chucked the pins into the chuck of my drill press and spun it while carefully cutting grooves with a narrow file. You have to be careful not to cut too much and weaken the pin.

Frankly, the grooves do not help much.

I have written extensively about this. The reason Remmies bind up is because there is no cylinder bushing on the front of the cylinder to deflect away fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. Yes, the clearance cuts on the arbor of a Colt style C&B do help, they provide clearance for fouling, and present less bearing surface for the cylinder to rub against. But the real reason the Colt style guns do not bind up so much is because the arbor is such a large diameter. More surface area to spread the fouling out over.
Yeah that makes sence, there is good and bad about them both i guess.

BCRider
August 23, 2013, 12:59 AM
Bring along a little dropper bottle of Canola cooking oil. Put a drop on the rod at the front of the cylinder after loading up the cylinder and give 'er a bit of a spin to work it in. The Canola really cuts the BP fouling and keeps things spinning neatly.

I use this same Canola on both my Remingtons and Colts. I like the oil better than the thicker bore butter or other thicker grease like options because the cylinder spins easier for both loading and cocking the hammer.

BowerR64
August 23, 2013, 04:18 AM
Yeah i try and spin them after each round to keep them free.

If i let them sit to long they almost lock up solid.

When i clean them im shocked how much crud i get out of just one gun

This image is just one day at the range about 18 shots

zimmerstutzen
August 23, 2013, 06:50 AM
I used "Pistol Patch" for decades on top the balls and never had a stuck or locked pin
Even in a whole afternoon.
Lately, I have been using the white grease in a tub from the auto store

BowerR64
August 23, 2013, 09:55 PM
I used "Pistol Patch" for decades on top the balls and never had a stuck or locked pin
Even in a whole afternoon.
Lately, I have been using the white grease in a tub from the auto store
But if what you were doing before the white grease was working why are you now using the white grease?

Im starting to think its just he nature of black powder to have a ton of fouling.

I guess if it smokes alot its going to happen.

I need to just quit being a cry baby and shoot. lol

woodnbow
August 23, 2013, 10:19 PM
You might already know this but you should not use a petrol based lubricant on parts subjected to heavy fouling. I use bore butter,its the same stuff found in wonder wads, or at least it smells the same.
I know this is the conventional wisdom but I've been running Harley Davidson Full Synthetic in my Ar15 and in the action of my Old Army as an experiment. Works great so far, seems to keep the fouling soft and easy to deal with later.

swathdiver
August 24, 2013, 02:30 AM
because at times i have to pound it out it gets so tight its impossible

The simple solution is to pull the cylinder after 12-18 rounds and just rub it down with a bore buttered rag. Then do it again after another 2 or 3 cylinders of shootin' and so on.

BowerR64
August 24, 2013, 02:43 AM
Yeah i guess ill have to start doing that.

Driftwood Johnson
August 24, 2013, 02:55 AM
Im starting to think its just he nature of black powder to have a ton of fouling.

Well yeah........

We are talking about the 1858 Remington, right?

Yes, Black Powder leaves behind a ton of fouling, that is the nature of it. However in my experience the 1858 Remington is just about the worst pistol there is to keep from binding up because of the combination of no bushing on the front of the cylinder and a thin cylinder base pin.

Remington did a better job when they introduced the Model 1875 cartridge gun. It had a bushing on the front of the cylinder and could deal better with fouling. Colt did an even better job in 1873 with an even longer bushing. I can shoot a Colt with Black Powder cartridges all day long because of the bushing design and because I use plenty of Black Powder compatible bullet lube.

BowerR64
August 24, 2013, 04:42 AM
Well i just kinda felt i was doing something wrong because everyone else talks that they dont have the problems im having with it just binding up so bad i have to use a hammer to free them up.

I have not shot the colts near as much as the remingtons only because the remingtons seem so much easier to load.

swathdiver
August 24, 2013, 04:35 PM
When you say binding, is your cylinder stopping and not turning as it should with each pull of the trigger? Or are you just having a hard time getting the pin loose?

BowerR64
August 26, 2013, 04:55 AM
Both, it gets to where it wont turn very easy and then the pin gets so fouled up that i cant get the pin out to oil it.

I know its common because a youtube video i watched a guy said he has a cut in his pin from the blast cutting into the steel. The blast is actually powerful enough that its slowly cutting into the steel rod. I think once it hits the pin its shooting the blast around the pin. Mine is doing this but i didnt know thats what its from.

The last time i shot i made sure i turn it after each round of 6 shots and it was turning ok. Then as it sat in the gun case a few hours when i got home it cooled or something and the fouling like setup then i couldnt get it to spin.

When you put it to half cock i spin the cylinder with my left hand to try and keep it free. It spun but not like it does when its clean. Then when i got it home to clean it, it wasnt as free it was really tight.

Isnt this black powder substitute sugar based or something? it sure feels like it is.

If its common thats fine ill just have to work around it but if its not i want to try and figure out my problem with it. If the gap between the cylinder and forcing cone is to large? or if my powder is to old or something else that im doing wrong.

At first i didnt have as much of an issues because i was shooting all 4 guns when i got them out. I rotated so i only shot each gun twice. Latley ive been trying to get each one sighted in so im shooting only one trying different loads and trying to figure out what each one likes so im shooting one at a time more then once but dang after about 12 shots it gets difficult without tearing the whole gun down and fully cleaning it.

At first i was using a filler, i quit using the cream of wheat didnt help, then i thought it was "petrol based lubricant" and i thought that was my problem then i tried the wonder lube grease wich i think is like a crisco animal or plant based oil didnt help then i tried this jojoba oil wich is safe for the skin and im undecided on that one still.

When my dad shot these i think he used G96 or kankroil or something like that. If he ever shot them, i dont remember the little cut being on the cylinder pin but there is one now.

swathdiver
August 26, 2013, 11:50 AM
My Remingtons have only ever been fed real Goex and Schuetzen black powder. None of them are having their cylinder pins cut. None have ever stopped rotating, even after 72 or more rounds were put through them. (Don't think I've ever fired more than this with one gun at the range)

The cylinder pins or arbors, hands, star pattern or ratchets are lubricated with bore butter. Bore butter is mostly olive oil with some tallow and beeswax in it I believe. My own concoction works fine for lubing bullets but still too thick (needs more olive oil) to lubricate the above.

Me thinks the problem lies in your choice not to use real black powder. Some fellows use red grease, the kind we all used to lube bicycle chains when we were kids, and claim their arbors never foul.

Driftwood Johnson
August 26, 2013, 09:41 PM
Howdy Again

The cut in your cylinder pin is caused by flame cutting. Another consequence of the lack of a bushing on the front of the cylinder on the 1858 Remington. As I said earlier, the bushing on the cylinder deflects the hot gasses blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the cylinder pin. No bushing and hot gasses can start to eat away at the pin. No different than flame cutting under the top strap. I'll bet you a donut the cut lines up perfectly with the barrel/cylinder gap.

Here is the pin from one of my Remmies. Hmmm, a little bit more rust than I would like to see. This is one of the pins that I cut fouling grooves into. If you look where the arrow is pointing, there is one groove that does not go all the way around the pin. It stops right at the arrow head. This cut was formed by flame cutting.

This gun too has had nothing but real Black Powder run through it, an assortment of Goex, Wano, Elephant, and Schuetzen. No substitutes. But I have been shooting this gun since 1975 and the gasses have started to take a toll.

Take heart, Remmie cylinder pins are cheap and usually drop right in if you want to replace it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Remingtons/cylinderpinwitharrow_zps4838457f.jpg

swathdiver
August 26, 2013, 10:43 PM
Wow! I gather I haven't anywhere near as many rounds as you. One of my Remmy's has very little gap in the frame, the cylinder barely fits. It will be interesting to see if its pin gets cut over the years.

Rojelio
August 26, 2013, 10:46 PM
Has anyone tried bushing a Remington cylinder? If so, did it make that big of a difference?

I'd sure like to see a tutorial on this.

Driftwood Johnson
August 26, 2013, 11:23 PM
Yes, it has been done, and it does make a big difference.

rcflint
August 27, 2013, 12:13 AM
I have put a gas ring in Remingtons. They help a lot. Similar to the Ruger Old Army. See pictures.

Frame cut for gas ring

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a293/rcflint/Guns/gasringinframe.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/rcflint/media/Guns/gasringinframe.jpg.html)

Gas Ring installed in cylinder

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a293/rcflint/Guns/cylindergasring.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/rcflint/media/Guns/cylindergasring.jpg.html)

BowerR64
August 27, 2013, 12:51 AM
I only have 2 with a gas ring, myabe 3 my 357 dan wesson may have one im not sure, the Ruger black hawk does and the Rogers and spencer BP .44 also has one.

But i notice my Rogers and spencer still has a gas ring. Now i understand why it happens and how.

The recoil pushes it back then the hand pushes it forward when i cock it. So its moving the fouling back and forth.

So my problem is i shoot to much? :/

Rojelio
August 27, 2013, 10:20 AM
rcflint, is that a flange on the bushing to direct gas flow, or, did you somehow leave a ring in the frame for the bushing to slide into? It's hard to tell from the picture.

I think this is great! Thanks

BowerR64
August 27, 2013, 01:13 PM
Whats great? there isnt an easy solution is there?

Rojelio
August 27, 2013, 02:01 PM
Whats great? there isnt an easy solution is there?

There is for me. I Have a lathe and milling machine and know how to use them.

rcflint
August 27, 2013, 03:08 PM
I cut a groove similar to the Colt SAA to deflect some cyl gap flash. The part I made is .375 behind, pressed 3/8 inch into the cylinder which was back bored .374 for a press fit.

The length of the forward portion is about the same as a Ruger OA, sometimes flush with the scallop above at the barrel, depending on the scallop depth, which depends on the make and the year made, they vary. It is about 3/16 inch.

The forward end is reduced in diameter to clear the barrel threads, which may also need to be flatted a bit for clearance, again depending on make and year.

The gun shown is a Pietta stainless. Also visible is my cylinder pin latch replacing the loading lever if a conversion cylinder is fitted.

Rojelio
August 27, 2013, 03:25 PM
Thank you rcflint, that was very helpful.

BowerR64
August 27, 2013, 04:12 PM
There is for me. I Have a lathe and milling machine and know how to use them.
Ahhh man

kituwa
August 27, 2013, 05:46 PM
I have seen this done before by turning the cylinder down make it part of the cylinder itself, the barrel hade to be screwed in to meet the new shorter length of the cylinder face. This is a much better way of doing it because you dont lose chamber capacity and is no need to alter the barrel.

BowerR64
August 27, 2013, 06:37 PM
What if i polish the rod, the guy on the youtube video mentioned he polished the rod on his. Maybe that will help keep the fouling down a little.

The video had the editor of guns of the old west magazine or something like that. He may be a member on here im not sure. duelist1954 He said his name was Mike Beliveau

Driftwood Johnson
August 27, 2013, 08:26 PM
I have seen this done before by turning the cylinder down make it part of the cylinder itself, the barrel hade to be screwed in to meet the new shorter length of the cylinder face. This is a much better way of doing it because you dont lose chamber capacity and is no need to alter the barrel.

Huh? I have never heard of that being done. You would cut down on your cartridge OAL. Besides, if somebody is good enough to cut down the length of the cylinder, he is good enough to make a bushing and set it in without needing to turn the barrel in further.

What if i polish the rod, the guy on the youtube video mentioned he polished the rod on his. Maybe that will help keep the fouling down a little.

Yeah, you can polish the rod. It will help some. But if you look closely at the photo of my cylinder pin you will see there are tooling marks left on it from when it was made. If you polish it down so much that the tooling marks disappear, it will not fit properly anymore, it will be too loose.

The bottom line I have found with the 1858 Remington, not having the skill to make my own bushing, is to just accept the fact that they need to be wiped down more often. I usually shoot my Remmies with 45 Colt conversion cylinders these days. Loaded with Black Powder of course. In order to reload I have to remove the cylinders, which is a snap with a Remmie. When I pull the cylinder out, I wipe down the face with a damp rag, then reload and put the cylinder back in. Works just fine, I can shoot them for an eight stage match that way with no binding or problems. Of course, I am using Big Lube bullets that have a ton of SPG in the lube grooves.

Dframe
September 4, 2013, 08:35 PM
I always keep a small box of baby butt wipes in my kit. Every so often I wipe down the cylinder and base pin. Then rub on a little bore butter and go right back to shooting. Takes maybe 30 seconds. You CAN overthink this whole deal.

damoc
September 5, 2013, 09:08 AM
I dont think you need to do any mods to the cyl rod just plenty of bullet lube over the balls and a little bit in the cyl pin hole with every loading.

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