ok lets build a 209 nipple for rem. bp replicas


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davidkincaid
August 19, 2013, 10:13 PM
shootin 1856 rem. peita bp.
i started a thread at: http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,6512.0.html
seems nobody wants this to work, but im sure as well a retired nasa engineer smitty said i found better mousetrap so jus lookin for imput, ideas and a good smith with lathe and taps.
my idea is simple plug n play version of hat cap
my idea is to take coldroll stainless and make a new nipple to screw in revolvers to use -209- primers. -no caps or hats.

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pikid89
August 19, 2013, 10:49 PM
i dont know a whole lot about black powder, but i think you are meeting resistance because the only reason to use 209 primers is if you are using something like 777, because of the higher ignition temperatures. Alot of people shooting the repro revolvers are using real BP, so the higher powered 209s are not really needed

Phantom Captain
August 19, 2013, 11:12 PM
Agreed with the above. I NEVER use subs. BP only for me. Plus the fact that it's quite easy to buy aftermarket nipples that perfectly fit specific caps. I have aftermarket nipples on ALL my cap and ball revolver that are made to take Remington #10s and all work and perform perfectly.

rcmodel
August 19, 2013, 11:56 PM
I'm having a hard time envisioning how there could possibly be enough room for a 1/4" plus (.305" long actually) #209 shotgun primer to fit between the rear of the cylinder and the recoil shield of any BP revolver???

How's that work anyway??

rc

Doak
August 20, 2013, 02:52 AM
That's correct. There is no room in the nipple mortices ona BP revolver for a gizmo containing a 209 primer. Diameter is way too large.

There is, however, room for a gizmo containing a "small pistol/rifle primer". It's called a "primer capsule". You can see 'em on the ROAClub thread starting on pg37.

Soon, they'll be made for Rem. 1858's too.

Dependable, consistent, faster ignition, shrapnel containment, mess containment, improved accuracy, & primer availability are some of the benefits. And they don't fall off.

Be aware that the people who criticise 'em are also the people that don't have 'em.

There's 5 shooters out there that have 'em so far. Maybe you can get some of 'em to talk about 'em. Good or bad.

Problem is, I'm the only one makin' 'em so far. And I'm givin' 'em away free...to try & stimulate interest in 'em, and encourage others to make 'em too.

Kindest Regards,
Doak

zimmerstutzen
August 20, 2013, 07:28 AM
I'll bite. Instead of a new nipple for a remmie repro, how about a reverse conversion cylinder for a big powder large bore centerfire revolver, like the 45-70 bison, or the 50 s&w. Many people lamant the lack of a large bore c&b rev.

davidkincaid
August 20, 2013, 09:15 AM
ok picture this in your mind, as the capsule this idea is as i said ealier much better and less troublesome, ok yes its tight, but mill coldroll stainless which is strong enough temper not needed, mill to area to go in hole on cylinder use a X type top cut for installing -removal with flat screwdriver as no side room for hex type shape must be round, now its bottom threaded to go into cylinder powder chamber per existing threaded hole. as well tapped and threaded. pinhole drilled top and bottom of primer hole drilled in top for hairpin type retainer spring wire.
the 209 inserts flush mount to top of nipple and the larger surface area gives ample room for stock hammer to smack surface of 209. the fire chamber -MUST- be as follows for safety, no powder ball blow out before full combustion, and no primer forcefull ejection.
1/2 way top to bottom .080 dia. ---THEN-- the bottom 1/2 of fire channel -MUST- be .040
no pill no hat no problem, just replace nipple and shoot, this desighn can also be used for rifle or pistol primers as well only difference would be hole size drilled in receiving area of nipple for primer.
with just a simple removal of nipples and replaced no other mods nessary.
then have full power of cowboy load 45lc -without- a cylinder conversion.

BullSlinger
August 20, 2013, 09:57 AM
I like the idea of using primers for pistol/rifle due to the smaller size. If I can figure out how to get ahold of the what was mentioned earlier I sure would like to give em a try. Really hate having to watch where spent caps fall after re-cocking the hammer.

d-a
August 27, 2013, 04:11 PM
Don't most guys say the 209 is too strong for rifles and already proclaim a 25ACP conversion with a small pistol primer is more than adequate to ignite subs and is a more controlled ingnition and more accurate.

d-a

Patocazador
August 27, 2013, 05:55 PM
I'm one of the lucky guinea pigs that Doak mentioned. I use Remington 7 1/2 small rifle primers in them to give the most flame for igniting Blackhorn 209. They work nearly 100% with Blackhorn 209 but I notice several unburned granules in the cylinder each time. It makes me wonder if I'm getting enough of a good burn or if some other granules are being ejected with the bullet.
The accuracy has been a little less than I like but good enough for deer hunting at 35 yards or less. If I had a more complete burn, I think I would have better accuracy.
It could be the bullet/load combination so I'm going to try 200 grain REAL bullets next.

If the capsules were mass produced, a second set could be acquired and pre-loaded and changed out in the field if necessary.


I've read in a book authored by Sam Fadala of a nipple replacement back in the 70s called a "Flam-in-go." It contained small rifle/pistol primers and looked somewhat similar to a "Mag-spark."

David, I wish you could sketch out your idea because I'm not sure of the arrangement you describe.

BCRider
August 27, 2013, 08:56 PM
David, it's MORE than "tight". It's pretty much impossible without major changes to the gun.

First off the end of the 209 is the same size, give or take a couple of thou, as the threaded end to fit into the cylinder. So to give enough of a step to allow for some minimal amount of metal between the 1/4 inch threads and the darn near 1/4 inch hole for the 209 you would have the end of the 209 sitting right at the recoil shield. No room at all. And the sockets that screw into the stock cylinder would FILL the cavity by the time they are thick enough a wall to hold the 209's and not blow apart.

Now having the 209's sitting that close to the hammer is also going to cause problems. The first being that the hammer would need to be converted over to a pin. The second being that the nose for the cap fired version extends much too far past the recoil shield. So a new or HIGHLY modified hammer would be needed to incorporate both these changes.

So all in all I have to think that a 209 mod MIGHT be possible. But it's going to require a lot more than just some nipple replacements.

Patocazador
August 27, 2013, 10:13 PM
There has just been a post made to the Ruger Old Army thread dealing with conversion cylinders with 209 primers: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9084861&postcount=1702

RandyRay41
August 27, 2013, 11:12 PM
All this planning and nay saying and it's already been done! Just not sure what the advantage is other than firing smokeless powder.

Patocazador
August 28, 2013, 10:45 AM
All this planning and nay saying and it's already been done! Just not sure what the advantage is other than firing smokeless powder.
Modifying an existing cylinder and creating a new type of two-piece cylinder are two entirely different things.

joe manofleisure
November 25, 2013, 01:35 AM
Im new to this forum but have been wanting to use black horn powder in my cap and ball revolvers. Did you guys make any headway on manufacturing new cylinders or nipples to accept proper primer for ignition of the black horn powder? thanks!

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
November 25, 2013, 12:05 PM
If they keep this up, somebody will figure a way to put the powder, bullet, and
primer all in one container made from brass. Wow! wouldn't that be cool?

joe manofleisure
November 25, 2013, 02:43 PM
Just want to use black horn powder in cap and ball for muzzleloader hunting season.

BullSlinger
November 25, 2013, 03:39 PM
Joe, think the best you can do with caps is 777 at present. I would not be surprised if Alliant Black-MZ came close but don't have a chrono to back it up. In natural powders Swiss seem to have the most pop but is also pricy. Good luck.

Malachi Leviticus Blue
November 25, 2013, 07:21 PM
Just want to use black horn powder in cap and ball for muzzleloader hunting season.

You may already know that you are OK on this where you are, but be aware there are some states that require Real BP or Substitutes for the Muzzleloader season. Here in Michigan that is the case. Smokeless powder is not allowed even if it is "Muzzleloaded"

joe manofleisure
November 25, 2013, 07:31 PM
Guys, thanks for the info. Hunting in MD where we need to use bp substitute and load revolver from the front of the cylinder to be considered a muzzleloader. I already use black horn powder in my ml rifle and love it. Just trying to find a way to use a hotter primer for the cap and ball so I can give it a try as a close range option or back up to the rifle. Thanks again.

elhombreconnonombre
November 27, 2013, 07:54 PM
As I posted in a different thread I was successful using pieces of plastic tubing and small magnum pistol primers when I couldn't get percussion caps for a while. I cut 1/4" od x .170 tubing to about 5mm length and inserted a pistol primer. This works well on my 1858 Remmies. The tubing works well with ill fitting percussion caps too.

joe manofleisure
November 27, 2013, 11:00 PM
Good idea! Ill check it out. Thanks.

Noz
November 28, 2013, 06:57 AM
Yeah! Another solution in search of a problem.

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