Return of the Wondernine


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Bartholomew Roberts
March 22, 2004, 04:48 PM
September 14, 2004 - Everybody has done their part to contact their Congressman, write letters to the newspapers and educate their friends and family on the subject and the ban sunsets.

Now that you are no longer limited to having just ten rounds in the magazine, will there still be a desire to have those rounds be as big as possible? Will the wondernine make a comeback if 17rd mags no longer cost 1/5 of the price of the gun?

Personally, I'd love to see Kimber introduce a 9mm version of their BP Ten II with IPSC-style magazines. Since it uses a polymer frame, the gun already has a thin, Hi-Power like feel despite being a double-stack .45. It has the famed 1911 trigger and the extra inch of sight radius and slim slide are nice as well. If they could make it in 9mm with the durability and reliability their Marine Corps and LAPD offering have shown, that would be quite a pistol.

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Trebor
March 22, 2004, 06:42 PM
I don't think we'll see the return of the wondernine. The "classic" wondernine was a full-size service pistol. The market trend now is for smaller, more easily concealed pistols since right to carry legislation has swept the nation. That, combined with the increasing popularity of the .40 S&W round, means that the market has changed out from underneath the wondernine.

I think the market share of mid-size pistols that hold the legally mandated 10 rounds will grow even faster when 12 or 13 rounds mags become available. Remember, for some of these guns there have NEVER been any legal pre-ban mags available because the guns themselves didn't come into existence until after the ban. The 9mm versions will hold 13 to 15 rounds and the .40 guns will hold between 10 and 13.

1911Tuner
March 22, 2004, 06:50 PM
I hope so! I loved the Wondernines when they were all the rage. They
kept the price of 1911s down...Keepin' my fingers crossed.:p

Cheers!

Tuner

Jim PHL
March 22, 2004, 07:21 PM
There will be some, I'm sure who will want to carry 18 rounds of 9mm or 15 .40's. More power to them. I agree with Trebor. I think the current crop of carry guns made to pack 10+1 will carry on in popularity because most of them are well made and fit the bill for a CCW. I think I will stick with a 1911 style .45 even if the high-cap ban is lifted. I've come to like the .45 and have always preferred single-stack mags due to the slimmer grip.

1911Tuner
March 22, 2004, 07:34 PM
Jim said:

I think I will stick with a 1911 style .45 even if the high-cap ban is lifted. I've come to like the .45 and have always preferred single-stack mags due to the slimmer grip.

Howdy Jim, and welcome the THR! Good choice on that 1911 thing.:cool:

happyguy
March 22, 2004, 07:52 PM
When it susnsets I'll probably buy a 12 rounder for my USP .45f and keep it in the gun. I doubt that I'll buy a wonder nine or more than one mag for the USP.

Regards,
Happyguy:D

agtman
March 22, 2004, 07:55 PM
Well, the cops carrying Wondernines "back in the day" often wondered whether 15-minimeter rounds would be enough. A number of them I knew begged, borrowed, scrimped and saved to get their hands on a 645, (later the 4506), a 10mm, or settled for carrying a back-up snubby loaded with .357 mag HPs. Trust me, the era of the Wondernines wasn't all that wonderful. :rolleyes:

That said, however, Trebor's point is a good one regarding the likely market for pistols suitable for civilian CCW after the hi-cap ban expires.

The demise of the full-size, all-steel 15-rd 9mm pistol was virtually guaranteed by the rise of the lighter polymer-frame guns having equal or greater mag capacity, then the 1994 hi-cap ban/10-rd mag limit, and then the wave of "Shall-Issue" CCW laws that swept the country in the 1990s. All of these events more or less worked together. Smaller, lighter and more concealable pistols became the order of the day - and still are.

If the ban sets as scheduled, hicap mags will no doubt be produced again, but for existing platforms, not whole new guns.

Probably the initial run of "hi-cap" mags will be for a company's big bore pistols (.40/45/10mm), offering a 3-5 round increase in capacity for existing models.

NMGlocker
March 22, 2004, 08:05 PM
Well, the cops carrying Wondernines "back in the day" often wondered whether 15-minimeter rounds would be enough. A number of them I knew begged, borrowed, scrimped and saved to get their hands on a 645, (later the 4506), a 10mm, or settled for carrying a back-up snubby loaded with .357 mag HPs. Trust me, the era of the Wondernines wasn't all that wonderful.
Then the smart ones realized that it wasn't the bullet that was the deciding factor, but the shooter. The others come onto the internet and brag about their "magic death ray bullets".

Sean Smith
March 22, 2004, 08:10 PM
Then the smart ones realized that it wasn't the bullet that was the deciding factor, but the shooter. The others come onto the internet and brag about their "magic death ray bullets".

Or make personal attacks based on caliber preference? :rolleyes:

Tamara
March 22, 2004, 08:24 PM
I'll be sticking with single-stack 1911's, thanks.

(Although I am planning to build a .38 Super or 9x25 Dillon 1911 on a double-stack STI frame just to make a political statement. :) )

Kaxter
March 22, 2004, 08:41 PM
I am a huge 9mm fan and I will love being able to afford standard mags. I have a Beretta purchase in the works after my P228 gets here.

Longbow
March 22, 2004, 08:49 PM
Me, I just want more 50 rd. 10/22 mags at pre-1994 price. I'll make a mini quad 50 (crank operated/gatling style) when the ban goes away. :) :) I can dream, can I??

10-Ring
March 22, 2004, 11:33 PM
Wondernines are/were/would be/ might be cool, but I don't see a resurrection any time soon...besides, I'm really learning to appreciate my 8 round Colt ;)

9x19
March 23, 2004, 06:04 AM
Yep,

As sure as the sun rises, the sunset of the 94 AWB will give new life to the wundernine. In our more-is-always-better society, you can count on it. :D

Add to that the cost of 9mm ammo, and the fact that many non-experts buy and shoot pistols for fun (and the .40 ain't always fun in a 9mm sized gun). The .40 made big gains in the LE market, but I'm betting 9mm still outsells it over the counter at most shops around the country.

Sure there is a market for small CCW pistols, but its one that has been pursued all along.

The hi-cap market has been stagnant, and I think many makers will jump in with both feet... hoping to get a bigger piece of the market share for range/duty/recreational hi-cap pistols.

CHL holders are still just a small minority of pistol owners/shooters, from what I've seen in the local shop.

stans
March 23, 2004, 06:23 AM
I don't see a big resurgence in the high cap 9mm market either. The magazine capacity limit did not apply to law enforcement, so those that dumped the wondernine are not about to go back to it. People who CCW want something concealable and it can be hard to conceal a 14, 16 or 20 round magazine. I think CCW's will continue to carry smaller guns with magazine capacity of 10 rounds or less. Shot placement is far more critical than caliber or the number of rounds in the magazine.

Black Snowman
March 23, 2004, 09:31 AM
I think what you'll see are more pistol caliber carbines and other "fun guns". I'd be willing to bet the CX4 Storm would gain some serious popularity if you could suddnly get 25 or 30 round magazines for them at reasonable prices. Guns like the Steyrs might increase in popularity since they will no longer be neutered but I don't think you'll see makers specificly seeking out the "hi-cap" market any more than they are now.

MrAcheson
March 23, 2004, 10:37 AM
Yes the Wondernine will make a comeback after the sunset. People are going to start looking at the .45 and doing the math and realizing that 1 .45 is not worth 2 9mm in any quantifiable way, shape, or form. Maybe 1.5 9mm, but not 2. Likewise a hot .40 gives as good or better ballistics as a .45 with more capacity.

A bit part of the reason small guns have been developed was concealed carry reforms. However another big reason is that developing 10+ capacity guns is pointless under the ban. The industry developed guns that can live up to their full potential as 10 rounders. Once the ban sunsets they will bring out bigger, higher capacity weapons again. Why not? People CCW Beretta 92s and they don't get much bigger than that.

LynnKCircle
March 23, 2004, 11:41 AM
I began by carrying a Taurus PT99 in an IWB holster (same physical shape as the Beretta 92). That worked as long as my weight was below 215 pounds. But as I got older and fatter, that 5" barrel began gouging my flab. For years I carried a Makarov because that was all I could afford. But then my wife encouraged me to get a Kimber CDP Pro.

Carried in an IWB holster, I now believe the 1911-Officer style to be about the biggest gun to be carried comfortably all day long. Yes, there are smaller and higher capacity guns out there, but for my experience, at least, they are a lot more difficult to shoot fast and accurately.

I still have the Taurus, mainly because I was never able to get what I believe it to be worth. It's a great house gun, but I do think it's pushing things a bit to carry it concealed -- although in a Fobus paddle holster covered by a shirt or jacket it's not bad at all.

Just my two cents.

Lynn Circle

Boats
March 23, 2004, 11:57 AM
I'm going to get a couple of "assault pistols" (A CZ 85B and Walther P99 or SS XD-9 are in my sights) simply because large segments of the fedgov don't want me to own any. Enough likemindedness would spur a huge uptick in sales.

45auto
March 23, 2004, 01:59 PM
I would guess the wonderguns will increase sales, but I would think a large portion of someone's "gun-fund" money would go to the high cap mags. You can buy the "high cap" guns anytime, ban or not. The mag is the key.

Buy them quick, since the "issues" will be addressed state by state.

BrokenArrow
March 23, 2004, 03:12 PM
Win LE ammo sales:

40 S&W
9x19
45 ACP
357SIG
.38 Special

The .357 Mag isn't even a blip on the screen anymore.

So the 9x19 isn't doing as bad as some thought it was?

Will it hold it's own, go up, continue to drop? Beats me.

That's the USA/Canada. The 9x19 is still Numero Uno by far worldwide.

I still like it best too. Even w just 10 rounds in a big gun.

Most new guns designed after the ban were not designed around shorter/thinner 10 round mags. The USP? The Walther P99? The sig pro?

Having "only" 10 rounds of 9 minimeter in a "full size" gun never bothered me as much as why I had only 10 rounds did. ;)

Gunmeister
March 23, 2004, 03:23 PM
OK, I'm an old guy, been around almost 70 years, been playin with guns 50 or more years and guess what? I don't know what a "wondernine" is. Anybody got a picture? Educate me please.

tiberius
March 23, 2004, 03:52 PM
Wondernine characteristics:

9mm
double stack magazine
DA on first shot (or equivalent) - i.e. Glock 17 & HK P7M13 count IMHO

term coined in the '80s I think. S&W model 59 was the first one.

clipse
March 23, 2004, 04:06 PM
I always thought wondernines where 9mm handguns that held as many rounds as possible.

Under that deffinition:

My wondernines. :D


First my CZ 75 P-01. 14rounds of 9mm in a compact gun. DA/SA
http://img33.photobucket.com/albums/v101/clipse/CZUB/p-01CLEAR.jpg

Second, my CZ 75B 15 rounds 9mm. SA/DA.
http://img33.photobucket.com/albums/v101/clipse/CZUB/f94b1738.jpg

I suppose these would classify as wondernines.

clipse

Gunmeister
March 23, 2004, 04:23 PM
OK I get it now, I mistakenly thought a wondernine was a brand or model name for a specific pistol that I had never heard of.
I have several "Wondernines" by that description. One of my prize 9mm pistols is a totally cherry blue S&W Model 39 with walnut checkered grips, although she isn't double stacked and won't hold 15+ rounds she is a thing of beauty and a "wondernine" to behold. Wish I had a digital camera so I could share her beauty with you, but I don't have one. Shucks, I wouldn't know how to work it if I did have one, I'm still stuck in the 50's

clipse
March 23, 2004, 04:26 PM
I'm still stuck in the 50's

If that were true then you wouldn't posting on this forum. :D


clipse

Gunmeister
March 23, 2004, 04:30 PM
Mentally that is. A '57 Chevy still seems like a pretty new car to me. (LOL)

1911Tuner
March 23, 2004, 04:53 PM
Double-digit magazine capacity is only an issue for those who figure on missin' a lot.:D

Gunnery! Gunnery! Gunnery! All else is twaddle. Hit the target!

Cheers!

Tuner

rbernie
March 23, 2004, 05:07 PM
Gunnery! Gunnery! Gunnery! All else is twaddle. Hit the target! ABSOLUTELY! But some targets are damn hard to hit when they're moving fast. In those instances, I'd prefer to have a little extra in reserve in case my first couple of rounds miss. :D

1911Tuner
March 23, 2004, 05:18 PM
when they're moving fast. I'd prefer to have a little extra in reserve in case my first couple of rounds miss.

Ya gotta LEAD'em...and that's what spare mags are for. Leave a round under the hammer and REE-load!:D

jercamp45
March 23, 2004, 06:49 PM
At first by those that have full sized Nines that want to upgrade their BS nuetered ones. Then, of course, by the crowd that watches too many John Woo movies and think the pistol is a subgun. And the gangbanger, who do not care who they hit(unless, they already have the standard mags).
But, the PD's are not affected, and they seem to be moving up in bore diameter. And the military will not be affected.
Certainly won't cause me much concern....other than the righting of a 2nd Ammendment Violation against the American People perptrated by a villianous man that swore to uphold the constitution, then went about violating it at every opportunity(His ethical code seemed to fall under...'Lie, Cheat, Steal as much as possible').
My handguns are single stack 1911's in .45 acp. I saw two Nines fail where one 45 succeeded, so the twice as much ammo theory holds no sway on my mind. I will always prefer 8 big ones in a flat package to 15(16,17 or 20) on the smaller bullets in a fatter package.
As the ever-wise Tuner suggested, RE-Load.
Now, if HK would introduce a UMP carbine with 16inch bbl, 25 round mags, and a folding stock rather than that USC committee designed thing at a decent price...then I would really be affected by the Sunset. By about 1000 bucks.
I can buy all the AK and 1911 mags I can afford now, but maybe the prices on some items(like AR's) will go down. And though I could get Standard Cap's for staggered .45 handguns easily after the Sunset, those handguns don't hold the interest, feel and reliability of the classic single stack...at least for me.
My .02
Jercamp45

WonderNine
March 23, 2004, 07:25 PM
I guess I better post in this thread! :p

I can't wait for the comeback of the wondernines! The fact is that (for me) I can get a better grip and have more control over a "fat" 9mm such as a HP or a B92 than I can with a single stack 1911. I like having lots of bullets. But I like 1911's too. :cool:

Dr.Rob
March 23, 2004, 11:25 PM
Buy a bucketfull more of BHP mags at $5 a pop.

Maybe buy a Glock 21.

sm
March 24, 2004, 01:19 AM
I dunno.
1911 style , Old Smith Wheels and BHPs always been my choices.
Humm, I never considered the BHP a "wondernine". To me a BHP is a classic , well thought out design that has proven itself.

Yeah due to being asked to do some T&E on a Keltec P-11, I have one...now for a guy into blue and wood...and the aforementioned platforms...now that in itself is a "wonder". :p

Grunt
March 24, 2004, 04:02 AM
"ABSOLUTELY! But some targets are damn hard to hit when they're moving fast. In those instances, I'd prefer to have a little extra in reserve in case my first couple of rounds miss. "

And where do those first couple missed rounds go? I'm going to hope not into the bus load of nuns on their way to the convent or into the baby carriage pushed by some young mother but we all know about Murphy's law and how we can expect a missed round to first go through the baby carriage and THEN through the bus load of nuns.:( You are responsible for every round you fire and if you miss with those first couple of rounds, you're responsible for them too. Not trying to sound like an ass here but it's just the way things are in the world these days.

tiberius
March 24, 2004, 04:10 AM
Looks like we need a sense of humor transplant STAT! :D

Grunt
March 24, 2004, 04:26 AM
Sorry, sense of humor left a couple hours ago with the insomnia. :D Seriously though, I've been around long enough to see that there are folks out there that think spraying the area with a lot of lead is the way to end the fight. They seen it done on TV that way and in their video games, the good guy is putting out a continous stream of bullets too so like a lot of other things, they think that this is the way things ought to be done. Hell, I know one kid that packs around a couple Beretta 9mm's because he seen it in a video game and thought it was "cool.":banghead:

tiberius
March 24, 2004, 04:31 AM
No offense intended of course. You are obviously correct, it is just that it is also painfully obvious that rbernie was joking.

Grunt
March 24, 2004, 04:33 AM
Yeah, but being of German/Norwegian ancestory, I have a genitic medical problem..."irony deficency." :D

WonderNine
March 24, 2004, 05:16 AM
Yeah, but being of German/Norwegian ancestory, I have a genitic medical problem..."irony deficency."

I'm also of German/Norwegian ancestry. Iron deficiency? No wonder I love fried chicken so much.

Gunmeister
March 24, 2004, 07:14 AM
German - Norwegian here too.

Grunt
March 24, 2004, 09:03 AM
Yeah, there's a guy John Louis Anderson in New Ulm, MN that wrote a couple books, "On the Fritz, German-American Humor" and "Scandinavia Humor and Other Myths" that read almost like a checklist for those of us of either German or Scandanavian heritage. Great book and funny as hell, especially when you can see either yourself or another member of your family in there. But that's where I got the phrase, "irony deficency" from. :D

Black Snowman
March 24, 2004, 09:22 AM
The only thing in my plans that might change if the AWB ban sunsets is I might actually buy a Glock 20 to go with my Delta Elite so it's not lonely in the 10mm department ;)

I'd also like a double stack 38 Super for a 2nd 1911 style gun. I doubt I'll ever own a .45 ACP unless it's set up to shoot .45 Super to. Although the Sig 220 keeps tempting me. I've resisted the urge to rent one so far :uhoh:

LynnKCircle
March 24, 2004, 09:35 AM
Although it's true that the first poster was joking, there IS a serious issue here. CCW holders really ARE responsible for each and every bullet which leaves the muzzle of their gun. If you hit and kill an innocent bystander, the LEAST you can expect is to stand trial for manslaughter -- and that's only the criminal side of things. The civil side and lawyer fees will bankrupt you.

EVEN if you shoot someone righteously, someone who is obviously a threat to you, unless he turns out to be a notorious serial killer, plan on spending around $10,000 dollars in legal fees (according to Mas Ayoob, that's about par for the course).

So, except for the very rich and reckless, self-defense is a very serious matter with very serious consequences. Finally, as someone who most commonly carries an NAA Black Widow with only five rounds of .22 magnum HP, the mantra remains: shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. (Yes, I DO carry a .45 when I can. But usually my clothing requirements/situation preclude anything but deep carry. I could, of course, have gotten a Kel-Tec for the same price, but the price of ammo would have prevented extensive practice. With the .22 cylinder of the Black Widow, I have spent a LOT of hours shooting at targets from seven to twenty-five yards ... and can confidently know what my capabilities and limitations are with it.

(And no, I am not of German nor Scandinavian ancestry!)

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