In-Line Percussion Modern 50cal loading question?


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celem
August 22, 2013, 04:19 PM
Recently, for $35 and trade for a little junk that I didn't want, I picked up a 50-cal Traditions Yukon In-Line Percussion Modern hunting rifle. I only got it because of the price because I no longer hunt. I thought that I'd shoot it at the range because the owner swore that it was real accurate.

Today I shot it at the range and I will agree that it is very accurate - very! However, that's where the joy ends. I had picked up some Thompson/Center 50-cal XTP sabot bullets to shoot in it. They are ultra, ultra-hard to load. I used a ball starter, then the ramrod. I bent the ramrod trying to seat the rounds. I shot it about 4 times and gave up, figuring that I needed to switch to an appropriate size bullet because the Thompson/Center bullets are apparently wrong. I initially thought that it would be easy to push the saboted bullet down the barrel - not so - I had to almost hammer down the round, bending the ramrod on my 4th round..

When I returned home, I drove a lead ball through the barrel and then measured it with my micrometer. It reads .502 between the lands and .515 between the grooves.

The empty plastic sabots have a waist that measures .501 measure ~.501 (.499 to .501) at the widest points (the base and waist). Once the bullet is inserted into the sabot, the outside of the bullet area of the sabot measures .506.

Given that the lands are .502 and the saboted round is .506, it would seem that the sabot round is too large, after all. The plastic sabot base is hollow, like a Minnie-ball, and they were obviously designed to expand into the grooves, just like a Minnie-ball. It would seem correct, to me, that the saboted round should measure .502 maximum and depend upon the Minnie-ball base to grab the rifling. This would yield an accurate but easy to load round. Am I wrong here?

Any experience and advice regarding loading with loading an In-Line Percussion Modern 50cal???

P.S.: The website Choosing The Right Sabot & Bullet Combo For Your Bore, By Toby Bridges (http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=41:choosing-the-right-sabot-aamp-bullet-combo-for-your-bore&catid=6:toby&Itemid=7), provided some useful information, especially that a proper fitting sabot should load easily.

I found a useful chart on the Modern Muzzleloader Forum:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/Loaded_Sabot_Chart_XLS.png

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BullSlinger
August 22, 2013, 05:35 PM
I have such a gun. I use a ball starter then the ramrod.

frontiergander
August 22, 2013, 05:38 PM
you'll want the harvester ez load sabot, under the description it says " for bullets 300 grain and under". 260 or 300gr harvester scorpion pt gold bullets as well.

celem
August 22, 2013, 05:43 PM
I used a ball starter and pushed the round the few inches in and then switched to the ramrod. It was VERY hard to seat. I had to put the ramrod against the plywood wall and use my body weight to force in the round. There is NO way that I could seat with just my hands.

sage5907
August 22, 2013, 08:44 PM
celem, if you shoot black powder you have to swab the bore after every shot to get the next slug down the barrel. I like to use a product called Wonder Lube and I keep a cleaning jag on the end of my ramrod. I start the patch down the barrel for about 3 inches, pull it out, run it down about 6 inches, pull it out, turn the patch inside out and then run it all the way to the nipple, and pull it out. With a tight fitting Buffalo Bullet I can get about 7 rounds before accuracy starts to fall off. I don't use bullets with a sabot because they are so hard to load when using black powder.

celem
August 22, 2013, 09:29 PM
The first load with a clean shiny barrel was just as hard as the rest. I think that the sabot/ball size is simply too large for the bore.

RandyRay41
August 22, 2013, 10:32 PM
Having a inline myself I understand your issues. Probably the easiest bullets to load are the CVA power belts. I use Barnes in mine but I have to swab after every shot. The power belts are much easier to seat and I can usually get 2 or 3 seated before having to swab. I like the 245 gr. they have a better trajectory than the heavier bullets in my opinion.

You are right about accuracy. My accura V2 will put 5 in a 1 1/2 group at 100 yds. I am not real familiar with the rifle you have or know if it takes magnum loads or not. Probably 90- 100grs or 777 would be about right if not trying to shoot mag loads.

BowerR64
August 22, 2013, 11:00 PM
celem, if you shoot black powder you have to swab the bore after every shot to get the next slug down the barrel. I like to use a product called Wonder Lube and I keep a cleaning jag on the end of my ramrod. I start the patch down the barrel for about 3 inches, pull it out, run it down about 6 inches, pull it out, turn the patch inside out and then run it all the way to the nipple, and pull it out. With a tight fitting Buffalo Bullet I can get about 7 rounds before accuracy starts to fall off. I don't use bullets with a sabot because they are so hard to load when using black powder.
Thats the first thing i thought of when i read the problem. Ive seen a few guys who shoot at my range with the modern type muzzle loaders and some have issues and some dont.

The guys who swab after every few shots have the least amount of trouble with loads.

When i first started shooting black powder after just 3 rounds of shooting my pistols, the guns feel sticky. The fouling feels like im shooting pixie stick dust. I can only imagine trying to shove a ball down the barrel after shooting it a few times with this stuff.

celem
August 23, 2013, 12:14 AM
The whole idea of using plastic in the barrel seems wrong. The plastic melting and depositing plastic crud in the barrel cannot be a good thing. It seems to me that a 100% lead Minnie ball would be the best choice. It certainly worked well for many, many years. Leading I understand. Melted plastic I do not.

RandyRay41
August 23, 2013, 01:21 AM
I don't believe the sabot melts. All the ones I have shot landed on the ground 20 to 40 yards in front of barrel. To me they look the same as when I loaded them other than being bent from flying out of barrel.

RandyRay41
August 23, 2013, 01:25 AM
You can get either lead minie balls or there is a couple companies that make modern bullets for inlines. THOR bullets makes a great jacked projectile for inlines. The will send you a sample pack because you have to size them to your particular barrel. You may want to explore that option.

celem
August 23, 2013, 01:42 PM
RandyRay41 - thanks for the tip re THOR. They have managed to get a new US patent of the Minnie Ball. They look promising but WOW are they expensive. If I purchased one box of 15 each bullet would cost $1.86. Round lead balls or lead Minnie bullets would be more affordable for the range. If I were going hunting the THOR bullets would be a good choice, however.

Re "I don't believe the sabot melts" the THOR Patent 7,207,275 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=2&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&S1=Oertwig.INNM.&OS=IN/Oertwig&RS=IN/Oertwig) reads "The use of plastic sabots, however, presents the problem that they almost universally leave a plastic residue in the barrel from friction against the rifle bore or lands, particularly due to burning of the plastic during firearm discharge." I read elsewhere that the deposit is due to melting due to friction heat and, of course, heat from burning powder, which agrees with the THOR patent's description.

I work in Patents and it is interesting that THOR's Oertwig does not even cite Claude-Etienne Miniť's 1854 patent (http://books.google.com/books?id=Gsw-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA510&lpg=PA510&dq=Claude-Etienne+Mini%C3%A9+Patent&source=bl&ots=sza2_SLgXz&sig=vEwSe_PSYYXEpGhk8XW44pcOp0Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xZoXUujQMoma2AWX0oHYBw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Claude-Etienne%20Mini%C3%A9%20Patent&f=false) as prior art. The USA patent system is, sadly, very broken resulting in daily issuance of patents that should not have been issued. Oertwig's independent patent claims blatantly describe Minie's design.

RandyRay41
August 23, 2013, 03:15 PM
Celem,

Very interesting the information on the patents. I agree the Thor bullet is much to expensive to shoot at the range on a regular basis unless for sighting in purposes. Probably for range purposes a lead minie or even a round ball would suffice. The power-belts are not a true sabot but have a plastic skirt on the end of the bullet. The preform well in my gun and the cost is not that high.

RandyRay41
August 23, 2013, 03:22 PM
Anyone who would like to try out THOR projectiles just e-mail the company and they will send out a sample pack of different diameter bullets so you can see which one is the right fit for your particular gun. The have excellent customer service and are very helpful with any information requested.

e-mail: toertwig@grm.net
phone: (660) 244-5251

alsaqr
August 24, 2013, 05:47 PM
The CVA and Traditions guns, especially the older ones, often have tight bores. The TC Super Glide sabot will load easier in your gun. The Harvester crush rib sabot should load easier too. The MMP HPH 24 may work. The 3 petal EZ will work well.

http://mmpsabots.com/store/hph-sabot-series/

The use of plastic sabots, however, presents the problem that they almost universally leave a plastic residue in the barrel from friction against the rifle bore or lands, particularly due to burning of the plastic during firearm discharge."

Thor is pounding smoke. i've been shooting sabots since 1999 and have never had any plastic residue from sabots in the bores of my muzzleloaders. Furthermore, i've never met any hunter or shooter who has had a problem with plastic residue from sabots.

celem
August 25, 2013, 11:31 AM
alsaqr, et al, thanks for all of the suggestions. My problem appears to be just bad luck that my initial sabot selection was a very bad fit for my rifle.

I am trying a couple of solutions.

1. Some .50 Minie balls from TrackOfTheWolf should arrive tomorrow.
2. THOR is sending me a sample pack
3. I may try some .490 round balls with lubricated cotton patch

frontiergander
August 25, 2013, 01:03 PM
back in the day when sabots were new, that was very true about them leaving plastic behind after firing, they were of much poorer quality and once the mag charges came, that made it worse until they found new plastic material to mold them out of.

I dont really think minie balls or round balls are very well suited in your rifle.

You'd have much better luck with the maxiball as it does well in the 1:28 twist with 70-100gr pyrodex RS or T7.

celem
August 26, 2013, 11:41 PM
I received my sample of THOR bullets today. I did their recommended barrel push-through to pick the best size and I don't think that any of the 4 will work for me. The blank, red and black go through super easy - in fact the blank and red will just fall through. The blue wouldn't go in at all without way more force than I an willing to apply. So, no THOR for me.

I did find one of their statements alarming concerning the correct size bullet. They said "Bullet should take 20-30 pounds of push, similar to a sabot bullet" This is what I was trying to avoid and contradicts their claim of "Easy loading"

I also received some scorpion crush rib sabot loads from Harvester - they load with about 5 pounds of force. This is acceptable to me.

Lastly, I also received some Minnie bullets from Track of the Wolf. I will be trying these to see how they work BUT they are just a tad large for this rifle requiring 2 or 3 pounds to drive home which is high compared to .577 Minnies in 58 caliber Enfield. After I've tried them I'll report on the performance.

alsaqr
August 27, 2013, 11:53 AM
I did find one of their statements alarming concerning the correct size bullet. They said "Bullet should take 20-30 pounds of push, similar to a sabot bullet" This is what I was trying to avoid and contradicts their claim of "Easy loading"

Actually 20-30 pounds of push is not that much. The powder i use requires a tight fitting sabot seated very hard on the powder. When the powder compresses its just right. That powder does not work well with a loose fitting sabot or projectile.

There is the danger of a loose fitting bullet or sabot coming off the powder. If that happens the gun will most likely blow up when fired. Like this one did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtY1bT4Hh2g

celem
August 27, 2013, 12:28 PM
Re Actually 20-30 pounds of push is not that much.

All things are relative. I've been shooting traditional black powder pistols, rifles and shotguns since the 1960s but never one of the new in-lines until now. In all my years I have never encountered 20-30 pounds of ramrod force and I, personally, don't care much for it. I will admit that the sabots create some very accurate shots - more-so than with the traditional arms. Anyway, the Harvester Crush Rib sabots have a much lower, tolerable ramrod force of less than 10 pounds. Tolerable but snugged tight and certainly not going to inadvertently slide down a down-tilted barrel. I haven't shot them yet so I can't say how accurate they are.

rcoolbaugh
August 27, 2013, 01:12 PM
See if you can get your hands on some of the "REAL" bullets made in the lee mold.

I just cast some and they take a bit of effort to start for the first couple of inches but then require very little effort to finish off. Just last night I loaded one then checked it to make sure I was getting full engagement with the rifling, the top driving band showed signs of contact all the way around. I'm thinking of loading one tonight over a dummy load of 90 gn of corn meal and shaking the rifle around to convince myself that they will stay put after loading .... I did check the bullet with calipers and found the lands measured at .501 and the valleys at .510 on my rifle.

celem
August 27, 2013, 01:33 PM
Thanks - I just watched a YouTUBE-Video (http://youtu.be/Uh81Q34ZpWM) about the Lee REAL Bullets - looks good. The Lyman Great Plains Hunter (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders/great-plains-hunter.php) rifle that the guy in the video has fast twist refiling, like the In-Lines, and the Lee REAL bullet did pretty darn good.

The Lee REAL bullets look a lot like the Thompson Center Maxie-Ball (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/thompson-center-maxi-ball-50-caliber-pre-lubed-balls-370-gr-20-box.aspx?a=434679).

celem
August 27, 2013, 08:38 PM
Today, I went to the range and tested Harvester Crush Rib sabots and the .50 Minnie balls from TrackOfTheWolf.

Both easily load with under 5 pounds of force. With 50 grains of TrippleSeven both the Harvester Crush Rib sabots and the .50 Minnie balls shot about the same, grouping a bit wide but all on target. With 100 grains the accuracy of the Harvester Crush Rib sabots improved to dead on accurate. The crushable ribs do make loading easier.

I did not shoot the Minnie balls with 100 grains.

RandyRay41
August 27, 2013, 09:01 PM
I need to try some I those harvester's. believe I will order some. What grain and size bullet did you load?

celem
August 27, 2013, 09:26 PM
I ended up purchasing the Scorpion set of sabots and 260 grain funnel-point jacketed bullets P/N H85026 (http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=21&category_id=4&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=18). If you only want the sabot, MidWayUSA sells them (http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/448726/harvester-muzzleloading-50-caliber-crushed-rib-sabot-for-45-caliber-bullets-pack-of-50) for $9 for a box of 50. The close-up photo on the MisWayUSA site shows the crushable ribs very clearly.

If you have read the entire thread you'll see that bore diameter was important to me as my rifle's bore is smaller than most of the newer rifles.

The Harvester's sabot petal measures 0.026 and the 260gr bullet in this package measures .452, making the width of the saboted bullet .504 (.026+.452+.026)

WALKERs210
August 27, 2013, 09:39 PM
Glad I read this thread, I had one of the In-line rifles and after driving the rod down with a hammer I sold the darn thing.. Now I have another one but have never loaded anything in it yet. I decided that If I shot it I would use pre-lubed patch with ball on top to see if it might bottom out and shoot. I might pull mine out an try some different sabos to see it can be loaded easie. If not will go back to the PreLubed patch on it

RandyRay41
August 27, 2013, 10:02 PM
The CVA power belts load easy in my Accura V2. Actually they are the easiest to load but not the most accurate for me. My gun likes the Barnes T-EZ sabots.

mustanger
August 27, 2013, 11:38 PM
celem: TC sells what they call "Cheap Shot Sabots" . They are 240 grain hollow point lead bullet with a sabot. You might try them, they are inexpensive, 8.00 for a pack of 20. They are tight but fit easier in my Knight rifles than others. They are suitable for hunting too if you like. They grouped better than I expected.

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