Sig 232 in 9mm?


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460Kodiak
August 23, 2013, 08:40 PM
I was looking at a Sig 232 online and thought "Man would that be a nice little gun in 9mm."

Is there just not enough metal in the chamber to support a 9mm? Is the grip frame not wide enough to accomodate the 9x19? Is that the reason they only offer it in .380 acp?

It seems to me with moden metals, they could do it, and I bet it would sell pretty good. I'd buy one if it was $650 or less.

Someone educate me please.

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J2FLAN
August 23, 2013, 09:21 PM
It`s a stretch, but the 232 IS a 9mm--9mm kurz, that is.

I have one, carried it for 5 yrs every day, on duty as a BUG and then as my EDC after I retired. It is enough gun to stop most any threat, reliable, accurate and fun to shoot.

rcmodel
August 23, 2013, 09:26 PM
The P232 is a blow-back operated firearm.

.380 ACP operates at 21,500 PSI.
The 9mm operates at 35,000 to 38,500 PSI.

So, most 9mm pistols are locked-breech of some kind to contain the pressure long enough for case extraction to be possible.

If it were even possible to make a 9mm P232?
It would not / could not even resemble the slim, sleek shape of the P232.

rc

460Kodiak
August 23, 2013, 09:29 PM
Ah!!!!! RC to the rescue again! Thanks man . That makes sense. Good explanation.

So at what psi limit does blow back still operate properly?

usp9
August 23, 2013, 10:10 PM
There are many blow-back 9mm pistols, and no one reason the Sig couldn't be such. The resulting gun would have a larger, heavier slide and a heavier recoil spring and probably be pretty harsh in recoil. It wouldn't be quite the same gun. The Sig P230 was in fact made in a more powerful 9mm Police round, but it was not very popular.

There are a variety of small, P232 sized, guns that shoot 9mm. Not as sexy or sleek as the beautiful sig, but some are very nice. You want a sexy European 9mm about the same size... go get a P7 PSP.

rcmodel
August 23, 2013, 10:15 PM
There are many blow-back 9mm pistols, and no one reason the Sig couldn't be such.Except most of the blow-back operated 9mm pistols over the years have been just plain fugly, excessively heavy, and/or took three men and a boy to pull the slide back.

About all of them were failures on the market place.
With the exception of the Hi-Point.
http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/images/RWD9MMhandgun.jpg


Again, if they made a 9mm blow-back P232?
It would in no way resemble the P232 you lust after.

rc

usp9
August 23, 2013, 11:28 PM
Not all are "fugly" or failures, some are OK looking.

http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd360/harry_paget_flashman/300px-Astra_600_15251.jpg (http://s531.photobucket.com/user/harry_paget_flashman/media/300px-Astra_600_15251.jpg.html)

hAkron
August 23, 2013, 11:29 PM
The HK P7 is a blowback design, but it employes a gas piston system to retard the blowback of the slide until the pressure decreases enough to keep the smallish slide frome being beaten to death.

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/521578/7692618/5e482d7c36be75bb5f1c40b959adb94a.jpg

rcmodel
August 23, 2013, 11:32 PM
some are OK looking.But have you ever tried to pull the slide back on one to load it??

The Astra 600 went the way of the DODO bird, for a pretty good reason.

rc

9mmepiphany
August 23, 2013, 11:34 PM
Likely the closest that was produced was the Detonics Pocket 9

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/3/3f/Detonics-pocket-9.jpg/350px-Detonics-pocket-9.jpg

...which was fairly compact, but pretty heavy.

460Kodiak
August 24, 2013, 12:54 AM
Now this is an interesting thread if I do say so myself.

Ok, so the real question to me now is could some sort of locking system be incorporated into the 232's design tho delay blow back until chamber pressures have subsided? Would a super heavy recoil spring do it? Would that lead to feeding problems? Would it have to be so heavy that the gun would just suck? Is that why they designed the 239 instead?

Sorry if that's a stupid question. Drinking beer.

The 232 is a sleek looking piece. I'm just not that interested on 380 as a carry caliber though. I guess the XDs will have to be enough.… and it is really.

Just curious is all.

Balrog
August 24, 2013, 01:06 AM
If it were even possible to make a 9mm P232?
It would not / could not even resemble the slim, sleek shape of the P232.

Most causal shooters don't know the difference between blowback and locked breech designs, nor do they really care.

There are 9mm's out there that are as small as the Sig P232 or Walther PPK. Ruger LCP and Keltec PF9 are examples. They are slim, and more sleek than the abominations made by Hi Point, but they sure are not as sexy as the P232 or PPK.

Why can't someone redesign a P232-like gun, keep its aesthetics, but make it locked breech so 9mm would be feasible.

Telekinesis
August 24, 2013, 01:09 AM
could some sort of locking system be incorporated into the 232's design to delay blow back until chamber pressures have subsided?

The delayed blowback operating system likely couldn't be incorporated into the current P232 design just due to how the gun is already laid out. You would need a newly designed slide/barrel combination as well as a new frame to work with it. By the time you did all that, you would essentially be designing a brand new gun that might look similar to the 232, but would have almost nothing else in common.

bannockburn
August 24, 2013, 07:10 AM
Trust me a blowback operated gun, like the Astra 600, is not a whole lot of fun to shoot or to field strip/reassemble. The web area of my hand felt like someone took a hammer to it after shooting 100 rounds through the gun and trying to control that recoil spring during disassembly/reassembly was an exercise in extreme exasperation.

The SIG P232 is a fine gun just the way it is.

usp9
August 24, 2013, 08:11 AM
The SIG P232 is a fine gun just the way it is.

Amen.

DanTheFarmer
August 24, 2013, 09:26 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the goal in designing both the 380 ACP and 9 X 18 Makarov rounds was to produce the most powerful cartridge possible which could use blowback operation in a service, or smaller, sized handgun.

Now it is always possible to come up with novel ways of looking at things and spot something that had been overlooked but this is pretty "well plowed ground" by some pretty smart people, including John Browning (the designer of the 380 ACP).

22lr, 25 ACP, 380 ACP, 9 X 18 are blowback. 9 X 19, 40 S&W, 45 ACP are locked breach. Kudos to creative thinkers who are able to solve problems that others haven't been able to but there seems to be a pretty sharp break between the use of the two styles of "lock up" and the line is right between 380 ACP class rounds and 9mm Luger class rounds.

Dan

Rock185
August 24, 2013, 09:43 PM
What rc said. I owned a little SIG P230 in .380. More recoil than one might think due to the blowback design. Small, sleek, but I didn't care for it. I got to shoot the Detonics " blowback" Pocket 9. By Far the nastiest recoil of any 9MM pistol that I have ever fired! Did I mention, By Far!

mr.trooper
August 24, 2013, 10:33 PM
The Sig 232 is an excellent gun the way it is. Don't be so hung up on 9mm.

hariph creek
August 24, 2013, 11:27 PM
IF...somebody could come up with a locked breach 9mm, that keeps the aesthetics of a PPK/P232? They'd make a fortune.

460Kodiak
August 25, 2013, 03:02 AM
I'm not hung up on 9mm, I was just wondering. I don't even own a 9mm. I do prefer to have more juice than a 380 though. Doesn't mean I wouldn't still buy a 232.

Rinspeed
August 25, 2013, 03:45 PM
rcmodel is correct, just too much pressure.

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