Are you planning on buying or have you bought an IWI Tavor?


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Ragsdale0509
September 3, 2013, 09:03 AM
I'm personally excited about the IWI Tavor and I plan to buy one before December of this year. It's the first bullpup that I've shot that I truly enjoyed shooting. The main selling points for me is that I can shoot it both right and left handed (without brass hitting me in the face when firing it left handed with a right side bolt), "metallic" feeling crisp trigger feel, and well thought out controls. I especially like the location of the bolt release and the combination of it and the trigger-style magazine release makes reloading very fast. The trigger pull is quite stiff weighing in at around 12 pounds; however, the weight can be reduced to around 7 pounds by removing the redundant trigger return spring in the trigger pack. The Military Arms Channel has an "5 minute Tavor trigger job" instructional video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dizuRNL0HIs) on how to do this.

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basicblur
September 3, 2013, 09:35 AM
I was interested in the Tavor until I saw the Beretta ARX100 (http://www.defensereview.com/beretta-arx-160-also-written-arx160-modular-assault-riflecarbinesbr-demo-video-and-transcript-from-sofic-2011-military-special-operations-forces-law-enforcement-officers-leos-and-civilian-t/).

Since it's currently unavailable?, I'll bide my time.

I did buy the ARX160 - darn little 22s are addictive (and cheap to shoot)!

briansmithwins
September 3, 2013, 09:55 AM
I've shot the Tavor and own a AUG and FS2000. I don't have any plans to get a Tavor.

Some general observations about the three bullpups:

CHs-
The CH on all three is in the right location, but I'm concerned that if the Tavor rifle is dropped on the left side you might break it. The FS2000 and AUG solve this by using folding CHs, which does add complexity. The Tavor is also lacking a FA function, which the AUG and FS have.

Mag release location-
The Tavor has the mag release placed for fast activation but I'm concerned that it could be snagged or otherwise activated. The AUG's mag release is decently shielded but requires some manipulation to reach. The FS2000's mag release is darn near perfect, forward of the mag, well shielded, and easy to actuate by either hand.

Feel-
The AUG is slim, heavy and well balanced, kinda like dating a gymnast. The FS2000 is bulky but not dense. Almost like water wings. The Tavor is somewhere in the middle, not a solid feeling as the AUG but more svelte than the FS2000.

Operating systems-
FS2000 and AUG both use short stroke pistons, Tavor is long stroke. I'm fine with either. I do like that the FS2000 and AUG both have field adjustable gas regulators, so you can blow more gas into the action if the rifle is fouled or with weak ammo. The Tavor doesn't. From a design standpoint all three are very well thought out small arms. Field stripping is easy, with the Tavor having fewer small parts to lose.

Ambidextrous use:
The FS2000 is the only rifle that has ambi ejection, a centrally placed safety and mag release. It shares with the AUG the issue of not being able to swap CH locations. Both the AUG and Tavor are lefty friendly in that they can be swapped to right side ejection, but for shooting off your weak shoulder you're going to have some issues.

TLDR version:
There are advantages and disadvantages to all three, just like very other machine designed by men .

BSW

On An Island
September 3, 2013, 09:56 AM
I guess I'm more old-school than I thought, as I just don't care for the bullpup-style guns. So no, I'm not planning on buying a Tavor.

Fishbed77
September 3, 2013, 10:25 AM
I'd love to pick one up, but $2000 will buy me a lot of other gun-stuff!

HexHead
September 3, 2013, 10:37 AM
I'd get a Steyr Aug in a heartbeat over one.

wally
September 3, 2013, 12:54 PM
I'll buy one when I find a decent price, sure ain't paying MSRP or above for one!

YZ
September 3, 2013, 01:13 PM
I own a Tavor. My previous bullpup was an FS2000. It was fine at the range. It was far from straightforward to clean and reassemble. That's where the Tavor wins, in my opinion.

HoosierQ
September 3, 2013, 02:10 PM
For that money, I'd be tempted to go the PS90 route. And save 5.56 for an AR platform.

Quick Shot xMLx
September 3, 2013, 02:44 PM
After watching MAC's videos I want one badly. I "should" have enough money to get one around Christmas but I think actually finding one at or below MSRP that time of year will prove challenging...

SlamFire1
September 3, 2013, 09:42 PM
I am interesting in firearms design and the Tavor is an interesting evolutionary development. Too bad it costs $2,000!

Otherwise, I would be very tempted to get one.

OilyPablo
September 3, 2013, 09:47 PM
I do want a FDE Tavor. I just cannot justify $2000.

Jackal
September 3, 2013, 09:51 PM
The IWI would be a good buy at $1100-$1400. But go beyond that in price range and your into top of the line, end of days AR15's, which have easily obtained parts. Break something on that IWI or try to buy some spare parts....:banghead:

YZ
September 3, 2013, 10:09 PM
It helps quite a bit to know you can resell your Tavor and lose little or no money at all. That was my ultimate excuse for going for it. Mine by the way is FDE but only because I was late for the black one at the LGS. I think all issue Tavors are black.
Also a bit of personal experience. The buttpad is so wide (tall) that you "feel" less kick.

TIMC
September 3, 2013, 11:02 PM
Nope the Israelis can keep them.

gotzero
September 3, 2013, 11:08 PM
I tried one out and I liked it a lot. I am not in a rush to purchase one but when there are more out there and the prices normalize I would like to add one to the collection. I did not feel like I was giving up much to an AR-15, including reloading split times (which we tested). The trigger was very heavy but not "bad".

YZ
September 3, 2013, 11:23 PM
The trigger has two springs one of which can be safely removed to lighten the pull. The IMI AFAIK does not object for any safety reasons, but voids the warranty nonetheless.

armoredman
September 3, 2013, 11:42 PM
I would love to try one out, and I think I would probably like to own one, but the cost is way out of reach for now.

CGRifleman
September 5, 2013, 06:34 AM
If I didn't already have a couple ARs I would buy one. I held one at my LGS and was very impressed. $2k sounds expensive but that's about what some high-end ARs and the FS2000 are going for, and it's still cheaper than the SCAR or ACR. The Tavor seems like it has a lot to offer.

bannockburn
September 5, 2013, 06:41 AM
Have not come across one yet but would be open to seeing what one was like before I made up my mind. Still consider the AUG the front runner if I were considering a bullpup design.

Cryogaijin
September 5, 2013, 07:14 AM
Perhaps once they've been around for a while, and you can get varient calibers. Honestly I want to see one in .458 socom. . . with a suppressor.

Bobson
September 5, 2013, 07:40 AM
Never heard of it.

Rob G
September 5, 2013, 09:26 AM
Somewhere on my list of firearm "wants" is a good quality bullpup of some variety. The Tavor is definitely on my shortlist for that purchase. That having been said it's still enough money that I don't see it happening soon.

JustinJ
September 5, 2013, 09:58 AM
I already have an AUG but would like a Tavor too eventually. I haven't shot the Tavor yet but I do like the feel of my AUG more. The AUG quick barrel change is also an advantage although alternate barrels are hard to come by although supposedly this will change. I agree with basicblur though, I'm more interested in an ARX but will wait to see how it pans out before jumping in.

rodinal220
September 5, 2013, 11:42 AM
Not at $2k. I can buy two Colt 6920s at $1100 a piece from CDNN.

HOOfan_1
September 5, 2013, 11:59 AM
I'd rather have an AUG A3 or a FS2000

briansmithwins
September 5, 2013, 12:05 PM
Not at $2k. I can buy two Colt 6920s at $1100 a piece from CDNN.

Each one of which would be 6" longer than a Tavor...

Sure, ARs are cheaper, they ought to be. Everybody makes commodity parts for them and benifits from economies of scale.

But the Tavor and other rifle designs offer things that you can't get with any AR.

BSW

rodinal220
September 5, 2013, 12:56 PM
What does the Tavor and "other" bullpups offer over the AR15/M16 platform other than reduced length(I understand longer barrel non-SBR),a lightened wallet and hopping on the "kool kid" Izzy mystic??

I seriously doubt we will see the Tavor sweep the action sports circuit unless its a stage gun or a IWI sponsored event.

Its just another re-packaged AR18 with a polymer skin. For the same ballpark money I can get two AR15 guns.

briansmithwins
September 5, 2013, 01:40 PM
What does the Tavor and "other" bullpups offer over the AR15/M16 platform other than reduced length(I understand longer barrel non-SBR),a lightened wallet and hopping on the "kool kid" Izzy mystic??

I seriously doubt we will see the Tavor sweep the action sports circuit unless its a stage gun or a IWI sponsored event.

Its just another re-packaged AR18 with a polymer skin. For the same ballpark money I can get two AR15 guns.

Let's see.

Long stroke gas piston, steel subframe, larger extractor, rugged bolt (that won't break ever 10-15k rounds), ability to be converted for left handed use (w/o using aftermarket parts), and increased reliability in harsh environments.

BSW

Ragsdale0509
September 5, 2013, 02:07 PM
Compare the price of the Tavor to an SBR AR-15. No NFA paperwork is required with a Tavor and the barrel is 16.5" rather than 10".

Ragsdale0509
September 5, 2013, 02:12 PM
In addition to what briansmithwins wrote, the Tavor can also be shot both left and right handed and use Magpul Pmags. The AUG cannot be shot both left and right handed. The FS2000 cannot use Magpul Pmags without modifing the rifle (and voiding the warranty.)

Geissele is in development of a trigger for the Tavor:


Joseph,

The feel of the trigger would be modeled after our SSA, the same as our other proprietary triggers. So a 4.5lb 2-stage trigger with a 2.5 lb. first stage and a 2 lb. second stage. If we were developing one of course.

Stephen McBride
Customer Service Representative

Geissele Automatics
1920 W Marshall St.
Norristown, PA 19403
610.272.2060



Would that be a confirmation that you're developing a trigger for the Tavor or a "hint hint nudge nudge"?

Thanks,

Joseph



Joseph,

We have received a request from IWI to work on one. It is still in the design phase. No estimated time frame.

Stephen McBride
Customer Service Representative

Geissele Automatics
1920 W Marshall St.
Norristown, PA 19403
610.272.2060

briansmithwins
September 5, 2013, 02:25 PM
Compare the price of the Tavor to an SBR AR-15. No NFA paperwork is required with a Tavor and the barrel is 16.5" rather than 10".

There is that, too. If I wanted .22 Magnum ballistics I'd buy a .22 Magnum, not blow $0.50 a pop .223 out a short barrel.

BSW

HOOfan_1
September 5, 2013, 02:42 PM
5.56 is still going to be shooting faster and heavier than a .22 magnum out of a 10 inch barrel....

YZ
September 5, 2013, 03:24 PM
I am not a particular fan of bullpup rifles. They are loud, they eject from under your nose, and the triggers are numb and heavy. For my needs (okay, wants) a 16" barrel is plenty short. I am not doing forced entries in the Gaza strip. But the natural balance of the Tavor makes it quick on target, and it wards off shooter's fatigue. It also locks back on empty, something that the FS2000, to my surprise, won't do.

PabloJ
September 5, 2013, 03:26 PM
Seen black one and now LGS has Tan one in stock for 2k. The 'Kids' always want something new and ugly. I would much rather have US-made SG550 which seems reasonable at about $1300.

FrankCastleThePunisher
September 5, 2013, 03:29 PM
Variety is spice of life. I'm pleased with my 18" Tavor with OAL of 27 & 5/8 inches.

rodinal220
September 5, 2013, 04:40 PM
Long stroke gas piston:The AR platform is available in both a DI(legacy) and Piston(pick one) now.

Steel sub frame:The Forged AL upper/lower of the AR/M16 series has proven plenty durable.


Larger extractor:you gotta pay $2k for a bigger extractor??


Rugged bolt (that won't break ever 10-15k rounds):If you run quality bolts from Colt,BCM,DD they will last that long or longer.


Ability to be converted for left handed use (w/o using aftermarket parts):I admit the Tavor is "better" for lefties out of the box;the AR with the M16A2 left case deflect works,the charging handle is ambi.With aftermarket support more so.

And increased reliability in harsh environments:How so??

The AR/M16 program had some teething problems due to early deployment,kinda like the SA80/L85(still crap) due to politics,wrong propellant,no cleaning kits,poor training.The weapon has undergone some good PIPs and will continue to do so,albeit MUCH too slowly.
Colt for years has tried to upgrade the platform but the military powers do not accept everything.Colt had a piston gun 40 years ago,long before the HK416(me likee) or aftermarket stuff(mid 1980s) like the RHINO system.

If properly maintained the AR/M16 platform is very reliable. If US military would have adopted HK416 type improvements it would even be further refined.

Not trying to dis the Tavor.The ones I handled and shot at SHOT seemed well made and interesting,but bullpups haven't proven to be the "next generation" The Izzys will continue to field large quantities(free US $$$) of M16 based guns for years to come.

FAMAS::barf:

SA80/L85::barf::barf::barf:

FS2000: how much for an even more plastic gun???That lil poop chute ejection "port" has me concerned.Clumsy handling.

AUG:kinda like this one,ahead of its time. The true quick change barrel is most useful.A3 platform better.Could use further PIPs.Still expensive for a poly gun.

Savage99
September 5, 2013, 05:07 PM
What's it good for?

FrankCastleThePunisher
September 5, 2013, 05:41 PM
What's it good for?
You might ask the Israeli Defense forces what they are good for.

YZ
September 5, 2013, 06:39 PM
According to them, urban warfare. Proved itself in the Gaza operation.

PabloJ
September 5, 2013, 06:45 PM
What's it good for?
I heard these were very effective against stone throwers. Basic SIG .556 (no iron sights) with side folding stock is about $1200 so why throw away $800?

CraigC
September 5, 2013, 08:26 PM
I looked at one last week. Pretty cool but I wouldn't spend the coin for one. Then again, two or three black rifles are all I'll ever need.

briansmithwins
September 6, 2013, 01:18 AM
I'm wondering if all the guys wrapped around the price point axle drive the absolute cheapest beater car they can afford?

The AR is like the Chevrolet Spark of guns.

BSW

happygeek
September 6, 2013, 02:09 AM
I'm wondering if all the guys wrapped around the price point axle drive the absolute cheapest beater car they can afford?


I do, but I don't think that's the point. The Tavor is like paying 2x as much for a Toyota Camry when you can get a Honda Accord. Everyone's asking why the Toyota costs so much.

briansmithwins
September 6, 2013, 03:05 AM
Personally, I don't drive a Kia Rio and the AR isn't my favorite rifle. I'm willing to pay extra to get features (better ergonomics, more durability, more robust function) that ARs can't offer.

But don't try and sell me the Kia when I want a turbo diesel pickup.

BSW

Quick Shot xMLx
September 6, 2013, 03:37 AM
While I agree that the rifle is probably priced too high at $2000($1500ish would be right) you guys are dismissing its benefits just from a price standpoint. The main thing this gun brings is that it's the size of an SBR AR with a full length barrel. That's something you'll NEVER get with an SBR AR for obvious reasons. You slap a suppressor on it and it's the same size as a regular AR with that full length barrel.

If you have no need for a shorter rifle then of course it seems like a gimmick. Frankly I'm a bit surprised at how hostile some people in this thread seem towards the Tavor and by association how defensive they are of the AR. Nobody is coming for your AR...well at least not Tavor owners:cool:

OilyPablo
September 6, 2013, 07:27 AM
The main thing this gun brings is that it's the size of an SBR AR with a full length barrel.

Exactly.

Why the hostility from some here? High Road? More like if it's new, it's NOT cool.

HOOfan_1
September 6, 2013, 08:06 AM
The AR is like the Chevrolet Spark of guns.

BSW

Is that why most of the special operations groups around the world seem to prefer the AR platform?

SAS...do they use the LA85 that the rest of the British Army uses?

Nope, they use Colt Canada C8

Grom, the Polish special forces, do they use the Beryl that the rest of the Polish Army uses?

Nope, they use M4s and HK 416s

Australian SAS, do they use the Steyr AUG that the rest of the Australian armed forces use?

Nope, they use the M4


I'd say the AR-15 is the Porsche 911 of guns, its been around since the 60's, its steadily been upgraded, and despite how old it is, it is still respected as one of the best tools for the job it was designed to do.

briansmithwins
September 6, 2013, 08:13 AM
ARs are the Lego of the gun world. I suspect the reason SF types use them is the same reason why girls buy Barbie dolls. You start off with the same plastic girl but she has lots of options to dress her up with.

BSW

Girodin
September 6, 2013, 02:53 PM
Long stroke gas piston, steel subframe, larger extractor, rugged bolt (that won't break ever 10-15k rounds), ability to be converted for left handed use (w/o using aftermarket parts), and increased reliability in harsh environments.

How many Tavor owners will put 10K rounds through their guns? How many AR owners do? Seriously. Also a spare bolt cost what, $70.

I own an AUG and a PS90. I have no per se aversion to bullpups. In fact, there is a lot I like about them. That said, at this point, if I was choosing between a Tavor and an AR for a go to gun I wouldn't hesitate for a second to get the AR, and that is irrespective of price. In fact my go to ARs are Noveskes. If I were going to buy one today without price as a factor I'd get a KAC.

That said, the Tavor may well be the best of the bullpups. But it still has many remaining bullpup issues. The recoil impulse and trigger (even the tweeked ones) are issues. The Tavor is also a pretty heavy gun. By the time you have it fully equipped it is going to be about 9 lbs.

I do not think you will see serious users moving in waves to the Tavor. If I was only going to have one 5.56 rifle I would not get a Tavor. If I really wanted a bullpup I'd give this one a look.

To answer the OP though. I personally do not plan to buy one at the current market prices. It doesn't do anything I can't do with other guns I have and it is not a gun that I really want to get just to have one.

Ragsdale0509
September 11, 2013, 06:22 PM
Shoot a Tavor before you complain about the weight. A 10 pound Tavor feels lighter and easier to shoulder for long periods of time than a 8 pound AR-15. The weight bias of the Tavor is towards the rear whereas the weight bias of the AR is towards the front. ARs are very frequently nose heavy. The balance of a rifle is more important than the overall weight.

briansmithwins
September 12, 2013, 03:15 AM
Shoot a Tavor before you complain about the weight. A 10 pound Tavor feels lighter and easier to shoulder for long periods of time than a 8 pound AR-15. The weight bias of the Tavor is towards the rear whereas the weight bias of the AR is towards the front. ARs are very frequently nose heavy. The balance of a rifle is more important than the overall weight.

Agree totally. You can look at specs on the interwebz all day long but the proof is in how it feels. The other thing is people have gotten used to how nose heavy most ARs are, so a rifle that's better balanced feels 'wrong'.

It's like preferring canned green beans to fresh because that's what you grew up with.

BSW

Bobson
September 12, 2013, 04:43 AM
Just watched a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOJt1iPraew) on the Tavor. I don't know this guy, never seen any of his videos, but it was decent.

Thanks a lot. As if I needed another rifle to clutter my decision between an AK and an AR. On the plus side, I can't afford any of em yet.

One thing though. The Tavor has a 13 pound trigger pull out of the box? Easily fixed down to 9 pounds? What the heck. Who finds that acceptable?

ETA: Just read post #31, regarding Geissele working on a trigger. Still though... is there something about the Tavor or the design that requires such a heavy trigger? I don't live in NYC, and see no reason to pretend I do.

briansmithwins
September 12, 2013, 05:18 AM
One thing though. The Tavor has a 13 pound trigger pull out of the box? Easily fixed down to 9 pounds? What the heck. Who finds that acceptable?

The Israeli Army?

Military pattern rifles commonly have very heavy triggers by American standards. Most military rifle were designed with conscript soldiers in mind.

For me, how a trigger feels is probably more important than weight. For example, the AUG trigger is heavy, but mine doesn't have creep and breaks cleanly. I'd rather have a heavy trigger than one that's gritty. Of course, when you're trying to quantify things, trigger weight is a easy number to measure. Trigger feel isn't

BSW

Bobson
September 12, 2013, 06:22 AM
Military pattern rifles commonly have very heavy triggers by American standards. Most military rifle were designed with conscript soldiers in mind.

For me, how a trigger feels is probably more important than weight. For example, the AUG trigger is heavy, but mine doesn't have creep and breaks cleanly. I'd rather have a heavy trigger than one that's gritty. Of course, when you're trying to quantify things, trigger weight is a easy number to measure. Trigger feel isn't
I also prefer a nice, smooth trigger over a light trigger when I have to choose one or the other. The thing is, with most modern firearms being fully capable of having both, I don't see why a firearm would be designed with such a heavy trigger - conscript soldiers or not. The Israeli Army isn't exactly known for having a bunch of incompetents in uniform, as I'm sure you know.

briansmithwins
September 12, 2013, 06:59 AM
Name 3 modern*, military pattern firearms that have been adopted outside the country of origin.

Most of the designs we can get date to the cold war or just after and were designed for conscript troops with minimal training.

BSW

*Post break up of the Soviet Union.

dvdcrr
September 12, 2013, 10:11 AM
Definitive bulpup video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9Fciegxl94
In case you need your day lightened.

Markm87
September 12, 2013, 11:00 AM
There's a Seal Team guy who posts on one of the other forums. Reading his experiences and what's in use in any serious Tac team, and his break down of why the Bull Pup sucks for high speed stuff, and you'll pass on this nonsense. Basically the Ergos are horrendous... no surprise.

Now if you want one just for the love of Puppery and collection... by all means.

Jackal
September 12, 2013, 12:29 PM
The fact remains, the Tavor is simply too overpriced to compete with the AR market. For $2000, you can get a good AR AND a top quality AK. Even if the Tavor is more reliable than the AR15 (which there has been zero data released to backup that claim), having an extra AK sitting next to the AR seems to trump that problem. So, your AR broke after 20,000 rounds? Grab the AK and go another 40k. But its all just numbers. Who shoots their AR that much, maybe 5% or less of AR owners. Who has 20k rounds sitting around, maybe 2% of AR owners? 20,000rds is about $8000 in ammo.

When the Tavor comes down from MSRP, to maybe around $1400, it may be a viable purchase. Until then, it doesnt sling lead any better than a quality AR, it just does so being 6" shorter (collapsed AR 32", Tavor 26"). I for one have never been so close to the target I'm shooting at to require a 6" shorter rifle. If space is that tight, I should have a handgun in my hand, not a rifle.

jp0319
September 12, 2013, 12:58 PM
Too expensive and it doesnt offer anything ground breaking. Plus I dont like the open trigger.

JP

JustinJ
September 12, 2013, 03:19 PM
There's a Seal Team guy who posts on one of the other forums. Reading his experiences and what's in use in any serious Tac team, and his break down of why the Bull Pup sucks for high speed stuff, and you'll pass on this nonsense. Basically the Ergos are horrendous... no surprise.

You seriously think the SEAL criteria for weapons translates to the needs of anybody on this thread? And i'm sure none of the guys in the Israeli military know anything about weapons of war either.

Jackal
September 12, 2013, 06:03 PM
And i'm sure none of the guys in the Israeli military know anything about weapons of war either.

For a country the size of New Jersey, they have to have the newest toys to remain scary enough to prevent any other country in the region from simply swamping them. Of course, being U.S. backed/funded doesnt hurt either.:banghead: I'll buy a Tavor when replacement parts are available and the price is down to $1200-$1400.

mr.trooper
September 12, 2013, 06:10 PM
The Tavor looks neat and all... but if I were going to blow $2K on an AR as a toy (and its a toy ... there are too many more practical options for an SD or working rifle):

I think I would have to get something else - There is the Beretta ARX, The Benelli MR1, and the FS2000 for new rifles, and some real sweet older rifles like the FNC and the Valmet series for those willing to buy used.

Bobson
September 12, 2013, 06:12 PM
For a country the size of New Jersey, they have to have the newest toys to remain scary enough to prevent any other country in the region from simply swamping them.
Excellent point. I'm sure the reason Israel has survived the last several thousand years of nearly constant conflict is because they've always had the newest toys to scare their enemies :rolleyes:

Bobson
September 12, 2013, 06:16 PM
...if I were going to blow $2K on an AR as a toy (and its a toy ... there are too many more practical options for an SD or working rifle):
Would you mind elaborating on this with a couple of examples of more practical rifles for SD, compared to an AR15?

silicosys4
September 12, 2013, 06:44 PM
"made in israel" does not translate to "unquestionably awesome" to me.

Don't have a Tavor, Don't see myself getting one in the future.

YZ
September 12, 2013, 07:42 PM
I am surprised to see so many strong opinions from fellows who have never fired or even handled a Tavor. It's fine to mind your wallet, no need to invent a theory.

newfalguy101
September 12, 2013, 08:11 PM
I would like to, but, alas the price will likely keep it a "would like to own" gun

Jackal
September 12, 2013, 08:56 PM
I'm sure the reason Israel has survived the last several thousand years of nearly constant conflict


....Um, Israel as a cogent state is only 65 years old... My point stands.:)

Bobson
September 12, 2013, 10:30 PM
....Um, Israel as a cogent state is only 65 years old... My point stands.:)
Despite defeating me through a semantic technicality (I applaud you for using it), your point is as weak now as it was four hours ago, and you know it. Regardless, it's off topic either way. We can both pretend you're right, and move on.

"Cool" new weaponry - regardless of effectiveness - is clearly responsible for the safety of the Israeli people. Brilliant deduction.

Ragsdale0509
September 14, 2013, 01:42 AM
The fact remains, the Tavor is simply too overpriced to compete with the AR market. For $2000, you can get a good AR AND a top quality AK.

IWI isn't trying to compete with the AR market because the AR is a conventional rifle and the Tavor is a bullpup. IWI is competing with the FS2000, AUG, and other bullpups. Comparing the Tavor, or any bullpup, to an AR is just plain silly. No AR can match a bullpup for short overall length without sacrificing ballistic performance.

Ragsdale0509
September 14, 2013, 01:52 AM
The factory trigger isn't that bad. After reading all the errornet reports of how heavy and awful it's suppose to be, I was surprised by how light and crisp the trigger was when I handled a Tavor at my local gun shop. The factory trigger in my Colt LE6920 is worst than the factory trigger in the Tavor. While the Tavor trigger is heavier than my LE6920, the Tavor had no creep and felt crisp. My LE6920 has the typical milspec creep before the break.

happygeek
September 14, 2013, 02:15 AM
IWI isn't trying to compete with the AR market because the AR is a conventional rifle and the Tavor is a bullpup. IWI is competing with the FS2000, AUG, and other bullpups. Comparing the Tavor, or any bullpup, to an AR is just plain silly. No AR can match a bullpup for short overall length without sacrificing ballistic performance.


Maybe they're not competing directly, but IMHO all evil black semi-auto rifles are indirectly competing with each other for market share.

gotigers
September 14, 2013, 08:23 AM
I like the Tavor, but not at $2000. If the price comes down to $1200, I am a buyer.

Queen_of_Thunder
September 14, 2013, 09:09 AM
About the only thing I like about it is the ability to switch over to 5.45x39. Other wise eith a few bucks more I can pick up 2 AR's for the grandkids.

deejai
September 14, 2013, 05:37 PM
Since IWI doesn't have a problem with selling every Tavor they make, I dont see the price going down much. The price will probably settle down to $1750 after everybody thats on a waiting list for a Tavor gets one. The dealer price is in the mid $1600s.

To those complaining about the price, there isn't much companies will do about it. Apparently theres plenty of market space for $2000 rifles, which is why there are ACR, SCARs, FS200s, AUGs, and plenty of high end AR15s.

Also remember the fact that some of the parts are US made, so IWI had to set up some manufacturing facilities here in order to comply with 922r. This ads to the cost of the rifle. Its a bit unfair to compare it to the price of an AR15.

Girodin
September 14, 2013, 09:24 PM
Shoot a Tavor before you complain about the weight. A 10 pound Tavor feels lighter and easier to shoulder for long periods of time than a 8 pound AR-15. The weight bias of the Tavor is towards the rear whereas the weight bias of the AR is towards the front. ARs are very frequently nose heavy. The balance of a rifle is more important than the overall weight.

I have handled the Tavor and I've owned two other bullpups, and been able to get time with a few others. I like the way bullpups handle Balance helps, but weight is weight. My sub 6# ARs are livelier guns than a 9lbs bullpup. Then there is the issue of carrying it around, where again weight is weight.

Name 3 modern*, military pattern firearms that have been adopted outside the country of origin.

Most of the designs we can get date to the cold war or just after and were designed for conscript troops with minimal training.

BSW

*Post break up of the Soviet Union.

Some that have gotten use outside country of origin that I can think of include:

CZ-805 BREN
CIS / ST Kinetics SAR-21
INSAS
HK G36
HK 416
HK417
FN F2000
FN Scar
Sig 550 (it may actually just predate the breakup of the USSR, I'd have to look. It's an early 90s gun I believe.)
QBZ-95

I'm sure there are more if we start looking at other firearms (shotguns, subguns, light machine guns, etc) things like the Benelli M4, HKp7, Fn P90, etc.

It is actually amazing how much of what is used in firearms is decades old. The longevity of some designs such as the browning M2 and the 1911 really astound me when I think about it

Girodin
September 14, 2013, 09:50 PM
No AR can match a bullpup for short overall length without sacrificing ballistic performance.

That should probably say no 5.56 AR. A shorty 6.8 would probably stack up nicely to a 16" barreled 5.56 bullpup.

The irony of course is that in the types of use where the length matters the extra couple hundred FPS of a bullpup probably don't. Also for use outside of international armed conflict or non international armed conflict (the two scenarios in which international law may proscribe use of bullets that easily flatten or expand) the velocity loss is also likely to matter much less. Lastly bullpup triggers can make shooting at distance (which is where the velocity loss can begin to matter the most) more difficult.


It is of course a trusism that a longer barrel offers more velocity and bullpup can have a longer barrel with a shorter OAL, that is of course the whole idea behind the concept. How much the velocity loss matters for a given use, or how much of a benefit the shorter OAL is for a given use is a different discussion.

It should be noted that in my experience bullpups are also less "blasty" than say 10.5" ARs (but more so than a 16" one, at least to the shooters perspective, due to the muzzle being that much closer to the shooter).

Like I said earlier, I like the concept of bullpups. They come with their own trade offs. The Tavor seems to be step forward on at least a couple of those.

OilyPablo
September 14, 2013, 10:39 PM
A bullpup 6.8 would be awesome.

boricua9mm
September 14, 2013, 11:46 PM
No Tavor for me, the AUG A3 delivers plenty of performance with a few extra decades of showing and proving.

Cheapskates, don't kid yourselves. The $2,000+ exotic firearm bracket is not even in the same ballpark. These guns are almost always bought by people who own (or have owned) many other rifles and are looking for something different that also offers quality inline with military standards for that particular weapon. Sure, you can buy 4 Mini-14s or 2 AR15s, but that's exactly what you'll have. Those that understand will agree, those that don't will continue to wonder until the day they do.

http://www.ricanhavocproductions.com/oldsite/images/steyr-aug-a3-acog-1.jpg

Girodin
September 15, 2013, 01:13 AM
Micro tech supposedly had 6.8 conversions in the works for their aug clones butbibdont know that they ever materialized. Now it's supposedly the 300 blk. Which actually could be pretty neat to for certain applications. With an aug quick change barrel it would be easy to go back and forth.

paintballdude902
September 15, 2013, 01:23 AM
idk... id get an AUG before i got a tavor.


i think all the new rifles coming onto the market just look clunky... the tavor, the arx100, the scar, the acr....ect.. i like a streamlined simple looking rifle. i like my ar-15, the mini-14 the aug, an ak but not many of the new rifles coming out

deejai
September 15, 2013, 01:31 AM
The AUG is a nice rifle. I would've had one if I didn't get my used Tavor for a very good price. I would've bought the nato stock so I could us AR mags.

Justin
September 15, 2013, 01:49 AM
The TAVOR, along with the AUG, are about the only non-AR .223 rifles I have any interest in.

PabloJ
September 15, 2013, 05:27 AM
No. Basic AR can be bought for $600-$700 so I see no reason to throw away $1300 to $1400. Another nail in coffin of Tavor is I can pick something truly useful like Springfield M1A 7,62x51 Carbine for less.

YZ
September 15, 2013, 11:06 AM
Another nail in coffin of Tavor

Seriously.

HOOfan_1
September 15, 2013, 12:20 PM
No. Basic AR can be bought for $600-$700 so I see no reason to throw away $1300 to $1400. Another nail in coffin of Tavor is I can pick something truly useful like Springfield M1A 7,62x51 Carbine for less.

A lot of people don't buy basic ARs though. I am not sure the appeal of the Tavor for the civilian market is utility, but novelty.

I personally prefer the look of the AUG A3 and the FS2000 to the Tavor, and to me they would be range toys. Not sure I can afford that type of range toy at the moment, but I did assemble a range toy AR, and the parts for it came to $1400, including the tools to assembly it, it came to $1700.

People looking for the best value in a military style .223/5.56 rifle probably won't buy an FS2000, AUG or Tavor.
People who like the novelty of the guns are the ones who are shelling out the money for them.

deejai
September 15, 2013, 01:41 PM
If people want to buy the cheapest possible of everything and are wedded to the idea that 600-700 ar15s are the ultimate in 5.56 rifles more power to them. There isn't anything cheap about guns and stretching your dollar is important for folks who have to worry about money.

However I'm not convinced that a 600-700 ar15 is the 5.56 ultimate rifle. I buy from quality outfits like BCM or Colt. When I buy something, I don't automatically go find the cheapest off brand chinese made alternative. I like my Coca-Cola and not the store brand cola. Sure they're both soda and equally sugary, but Coke tastes just right to me and I don't mind paying more for it.

Thats just what preference in guns are; they're tastes. I'll pay more for one that tastes good to me. Its seems that other people would agree with me because the market for $2000 rifles is growing, including the market for high end AR15s. Anybody who wants to have an AR15 at whatever price point, already has one. The market is flooded with them, which is why they're so cheap. However if you wanted something different, you're gonna have to pay. I don't mind paying a bit more since price isn't my primary concern; I only care about enjoying the rifle and collecting odd guns.

PabloJ
September 15, 2013, 03:59 PM
Looked over second hand Bushmaster hardly used shape for $800. That was older one Made in Maine (not new Bushington) with telescoping stock, short heavy barrel with long flash disperser, bayonet mount, classic for-end guard and integral carrying handle (rather like old Colt Commando). Not liking rails and other tactiKool stuff that is what I would get.

atomd
September 15, 2013, 06:01 PM
It's not high on my list. If someone is looking for a rifle that can sling a bunch of .223 at something accurately and reliably, an AR is hard to beat. You can trip over parts for them and they just plain work. Changing mags in bullpups is kind of unnatural and the only real advantage I can see is they are compact. I don't find a 16" AR huge by any means and I can replace parts on it or modify it til the cows come home. I would consider one if the price was the same as say a Colt 6920. It would put it in a competitive price range at least. I just don't see it as a gun that's worth twice as much. If anyone wants to give me one for free...I'm game.

goon
September 15, 2013, 06:22 PM
The Tavor may be a very cool rifle, but I'm a utilitarian kind of guy.
For the price of just a Tavor, I could have a new BCM or Colt AR, a bunch of magazines, and a case of ammunition.
Or I could have a BCM or Colt and be well on my way to having a second AR built with the extra $600-$700.

deejai
September 15, 2013, 06:54 PM
I dont think the Tavor is marketed as an competitor to the AR15. Almost everyone I know that has a Tavor, Aug, FS2000, Scar, or ACR already has an AR15 or several. The whole point of buying a Tavor is because you want something different.

ifit
September 16, 2013, 05:59 AM
purchased a tavor for tha fact i wanted something different...anything wrong with that? seems it is for lots a people, sorry but i start LOL when i hear this " i could have bought 2 ar15s BCM/COLT etc.. for the price of a tavor..etc.." by all means goy buy them enjoy them, heck i enjoy my tavor...nothing wrong with that;)

PabloJ
September 16, 2013, 06:30 AM
I much rather spend less on basic M1A carbine. It's chambered for 7,62x51 that is very useful for hunting medium sized game with five shot magazine. Another advantage of the M1A unlike the Tavor it comes with excellent adjustable iron sights. The Tavor really needs good dot sight or low power scope and good ones start at $300 (quality dot sights with adjustable illumination are shockingly expensive with average price being about $500 or more).

OilyPablo
September 16, 2013, 07:34 AM
Seriously comparing an M1A to a Tavor? :banghead::banghead::banghead:

I understand for the money I could buy a DW 1911. Or a nice shotgun. :D

DarwinG
September 16, 2013, 01:12 PM
I'd love to buy one. Heck, there's alot I'd like, but money is the issue. I wish there were a way to get firearms easier....... For less.

JustinJ
September 16, 2013, 04:31 PM
I still prefer the AUG over the Tavor. AUG parts are readily available, albeit pricey, and the quick change barrel feature is very cool. If alternate AUG barrel/bolt calibers ever do become available, as has been promised, the AUG will have another significant advantage. 9 mm kits are supposed to be right around the corner. Swapping calibers with the Tavor is not even on the horizon or very practical from a mechanical standpoint. The AUG also has extremely reliable 42 round magazines which many feel are superior to AR mags. If one wishes, however, the NATO stock does allow AR mags to be used. There are also several options available to improve the AUG trigger feel. If it were either/or i'd definitely grab the AUG.

Bullpups might very well be the ultimate HD rifle. They provide a compact size for maneuverability without the shorter barrel and associated blast which becomes magnified indoors. Risks associated with using an NFA gun for HD are avoided as well. Personally, I think the FN PS90 would be the pinnacle of HD rifles if some of the better rounds were more readily available. Multiple, aimed shots of a potent round can easily be delivered with much less muzzle blast than a 5.56. The round is also small and fast so over penetration with the right bullet is less of an issue than many other calibers.

Bobson
September 16, 2013, 06:57 PM
Hickok45 got hands on a Tavor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A1wcCt_X5A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Haven't watched the video yet, but I'm guessing its good. It's rare that I don't enjoy one of his videos.

sappyg
September 16, 2013, 07:26 PM
Personally, I think the FN PS90 would be the pinnacle of HD rifles if some of the better rounds were more readily available. Multiple, aimed shots of a potent round can easily be delivered with much less muzzle blast than a 5.56. The round is also small and fast so over penetration with the right bullet is less of an issue than many other calibers.

I agree. I'm just not attracted to most bullpups but the PS90 would be the top of the heap for me.
The Tavor is just not that interesting to me to want to buy one.

TCBPATRIOT
September 16, 2013, 09:35 PM
See the only bull pup I've ever been interested in is the Tavor. And if I land this job I'm in contention for I will probably take the plunge and get one but only after I get an M1A and pay off the wife's kia.

TRUTH ABSOLUTE
September 17, 2013, 12:18 AM
I have had my Tavor for a while. I was furtunate enough to be one of the first in America to get the Tavor through the group buy at bullpupforum.com.
I will be using it as a duty rifle if my department does not approve the use of 308 rifles.
I wanted something other than an AR type rifle. The Tavor seemed to have a lot of features going for it and I could understand why Israel would pick this type of rifle over the AR platform. I have heard that after the Israeli soldiers were given some time with the Tavor the vast majority preferred it to the m4. Israel knows a thing or 2 about what works.
After spending more time with my Tavor I can say that I absolutely love it. Its worth every penny to me. My wife loves it too.
After a little practice I find that it feels extremely ergonomic and well balanced. Its not light but feels much lighter due to its design. I feel very nimble and balanced with it. Awesome for room clearing and urban/ vehicle settings without sacrificing range/power. Its stays shouldered one handed with ease when your off hand is needed for something else. The form/ function just makes for an awesome looking machine.
Reloads are lighting quick as I still stay on target/ downrange. All my AR mags work great but I probably like the shape of the IWI polymer mags the best. I heard that pmag gen2 don't drop free but gen3 are fine.
The thing is built like a rugged little tank. Breaks down extremely easy, including the trigger pack. Eats everything without hiccup but seems most accurate with heavier loads.
The trigger was very heavy when I got it. It wasn't bad at all, it was just very heavy. I removed the 1 reset spring in the trigger pack in about 4 minutes and shot a few hundred more rounds. Appearently that reset spring was added to assist with trigger reset when the Tavor/ trigger is subjected to extremely dirty/ sandy conditions. Trigger pull is considerably lighter now and resets fine. Geissele is working on a drop in trigger pack for the Tavor and like the Scar 17, I believe the Geissele trigger will make a great rifle that much better.
If you like things that are a little different and can afford the Tavor- don't hesitate. Get it, train with it and you will never regret it. I absolutely love mine.

Girodin
September 17, 2013, 02:42 AM
Geissele is working on a drop in trigger pack for the Tavor and like the Scar 17, I believe the Geissele trigger will make a great rifle that much better.

If geissele made a trigger it would be a huge improvement. However, like with the scar I'd expect to pay north of $300 for it.

If you like things that are a little different and can afford the Tavor- don't hesitate. Get it, train with it and you will never regret it. I absolutely love mine.

What if any training classes have you gone through with the Tavor? Any AARs?

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