First day of school....wow


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wannabeagunsmith
September 5, 2013, 12:50 AM
Well....I really wasn't expecting this on the FIRST DAY of school (senior year here) BUT I walked into my CWA class and the first thing he does is use the NRA as an example of 'mob voters'. He was basically saying that they yell "THEY'RE COMIN FOR OUR GUNS!!" and the donations pour in and he of course said that there are NO bills that will outright ban guns and no one is coming for our guns. What a load of BS I wanted to tell him that gun control creeps and no bill that proposes a complete ban would pass. He then goes onto attacking a kid who is a known pro-gun advocate and asks him what seems like a simple question: "should a guy who got out of jail two days ago be able to go on down to the pawn shop and buy an automatic rifle?". Of course he says no. Then the teacher yells, "YOU'RE A COMMUNIST!! THE NRA WOULD SAY YOU ARE A COMMUNIST!!". That is of course a lie the NRA is all for enforcing our existing laws. I should know, I am a member. Never did he give a chance for anyone to raise their hand and chime in and I bet if anyone did he would just cut them down and use them as an example. Tomorrow I am dropping that useless class.

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General Geoff
September 5, 2013, 01:23 AM
"should a guy who got out of jail two days ago be able to go on down to the pawn shop and buy an automatic rifle?"

Why not? He's paid his debt to society.

Fryerpower
September 5, 2013, 01:26 AM
What is a CWA class?

hso
September 5, 2013, 01:27 AM
Then why didn't you speak up and point out the straw man agument and the biass explicit in his position?

InkEd
September 5, 2013, 01:44 AM
Idiot liberals in the education system. Typical. Sadly. It only seems to get worse in colleges.

wannabeagunsmith
September 5, 2013, 01:46 AM
Then why didn't you speak up and point out the straw man agument and the biass explicit in his position?

I should have. But 1) I never saw a chance to 2) the moron will never change his mind and 3) He may end up tearing apart what I said and make me and gun owners in general seem like idiots.

Inebriated
September 5, 2013, 01:55 AM
wannabe, the best thing you can do is call him out. Show some statistics, and point out the flaws in his argument. He very may well control the situation, but there's no way he can tear you apart your argument. Everything that gun control stands on is a fallacy. Let him yell and act like he's got it all figured out, but to everyone else in the room, he will look like a fool. Don't stand by and let yet another group of 30 get brainwashed.

My history teacher was a huge anti. Got into a lot of arguments with him over it over my 11th and 12 grade years (same guy).

If all he's doing is complaining about the NRA, remind him that he's as free to start his own group and counter the NRA's apparent brainwashing, but to do it in a classroom is just plain unprofessional.

TennJed
September 5, 2013, 02:02 AM
What is a CWA class?
I was wondering the same thing. I tried googling it and couldn't figure it out

coloradokevin
September 5, 2013, 02:07 AM
I should have. But 1) I never saw a chance to 2) the moron will never change his mind and 3) He may end up tearing apart what I said and make me and gun owners in general seem like idiots.

First, I'd just like to say that I'm glad to know that there are folks in your generation who still support our rights. The schools have been trying for too long to encourage a different point of view.

But, as far as not saying something is concerned, always remember that you aren't necessarily trying to change HIS mind in challenging his position. Rather, your goal is to make sure that the other people in the class have the opportunity to see the fallacy in his arguments. You'll never convince a guy like that to like guns, and he'll never convince you to hate them. But, while you each represent the two opposite ends of this debate, you must always remember that the majority of the people in that classroom are probably undecided on this issue. As such, challenging bogus argument points can ultimately be very beneficial to your (our) cause.

Incidentally, I fully understand that he might not have given you an opening to speak, so take my reply as a general statement for future arguments on this subject. Also, don't be afraid of his attempts to tear apart your arguments. If you have your facts in order he'll only look foolish and emotional when he tries to argue against you!

Good luck... I thought schools were liberal when I was there, and they CLEARLY aren't any better today!

BigBore44
September 5, 2013, 02:08 AM
I say don't drop the class. I say do some research, prepair yourself, then go back and make him look like an idiot. It wouldn't take an hour and a half to gather more than enough data to make him start an ad-homonym argument with you. Then you win. JMTC

Akita1
September 5, 2013, 02:22 AM
Why not? He's paid his debt to society.
Really?

Akita1
September 5, 2013, 02:26 AM
Well....I really wasn't expecting this on the FIRST DAY of school (senior year here) BUT I walked into my CWA class and the first thing he does is use the NRA as an example of 'mob voters'. He was basically saying that they yell "THEY'RE COMIN FOR OUR GUNS!!" and the donations pour in and he of course said that there are NO bills that will outright ban guns and no one is coming for our guns. What a load of BS I wanted to tell him that gun control creeps and no bill that proposes a complete ban would pass. He then goes onto attacking a kid who is a known pro-gun advocate and asks him what seems like a simple question: "should a guy who got out of jail two days ago be able to go on down to the pawn shop and buy an automatic rifle?". Of course he says no. Then the teacher yells, "YOU'RE A COMMUNIST!! THE NRA WOULD SAY YOU ARE A COMMUNIST!!". That is of course a lie the NRA is all for enforcing our existing laws. I should know, I am a member. Never did he give a chance for anyone to raise their hand and chime in and I bet if anyone did he would just cut them down and use them as an example. Tomorrow I am dropping that useless class.
The math is on your side (save the non-Harvard "scientists" 2007 study that has been of some debate lately-not debating the legitimacy herein).

Facts are your friend - of which none of us are entailed to our own set.

Baron_Null
September 5, 2013, 04:12 AM
Well....I really wasn't expecting this on the FIRST DAY of school (senior year here) BUT I walked into my CWA class and the first thing he does is use the NRA as an example of 'mob voters'. He was basically saying that they yell "THEY'RE COMIN FOR OUR GUNS!!" and the donations pour in and he of course said that there are NO bills that will outright ban guns and no one is coming for our guns. What a load of BS I wanted to tell him that gun control creeps and no bill that proposes a complete ban would pass. He then goes onto attacking a kid who is a known pro-gun advocate and asks him what seems like a simple question: "should a guy who got out of jail two days ago be able to go on down to the pawn shop and buy an automatic rifle?". Of course he says no. Then the teacher yells, "YOU'RE A COMMUNIST!! THE NRA WOULD SAY YOU ARE A COMMUNIST!!". That is of course a lie the NRA is all for enforcing our existing laws. I should know, I am a member. Never did he give a chance for anyone to raise their hand and chime in and I bet if anyone did he would just cut them down and use them as an example. Tomorrow I am dropping that useless class.

My advice would to be to speak up next time. If the teacher doesn't give you a chance to speak, make one. I've been in that kind of situation in one of my classes before, and I spoke up. Sure, I was attacked with arguments, but I was able to counter them. I may not have been able to change the minds of the people debating me, but I know that their ideas didn't go unopposed.

The important thing to remember is that movements don't start with a leader. They start with a follower.

Think of that one student. He was being attacked for his views. Think of all the potential other 2a supporters in the class. For all you knew, those other people thought just as you did. They didn't want to have everything they said turned against them. But if they saw that there were other supporters, they might have spoken up as well. Before you know it, it could have turned from an anti-NRA rant from the teacher into a large amount of 2a supporters not allowing the teacher to go unopposed.

Of course, it's also likely that you would have been attacked for your views. But that's the choice we make as 2a supporters. Will we just let propagandists spew their nonsense with no opposition? Or will we take the risk fighting for what we believe in?

MovedWest
September 5, 2013, 05:16 AM
Maybe this guy is a great teacher. Maybe he's pro-RKBA. Maybe he's looking for someone to grow a pair, step up, and argue a solid point for something they believe in and be convincing. Don't take it for face value. To hell with his point - MAKE YOURS! Just do it well and with confidence. You'll ace the class and win some respect from more than just him.

Interrupt him. Make your points. Go for nothing but net. Embrace nothing short of an absolute win. Victory begins with your first play. Whatever you do, be calm, collected, and 100% sane. I think he was trolling.

Let us know how you fare.

-MW

jcwit
September 5, 2013, 06:39 AM
Still wonder what a CWA class is????????????????????????????????????

btg3
September 5, 2013, 07:16 AM
Possibly...?

The closed world assumption (CWA) is the presumption that what is not currently known to be true is false. The same name also refers to a logical formalization of this assumption by Raymond Reiter. The opposite of the closed world assumption is the open world assumption (OWA), stating that lack of knowledge does not imply falsity. Decisions on CWA vs. OWA determine the understanding of the actual semantics of a conceptual expression with the same notations of concepts. A successful formalization of natural language semantics usually can not avoid an explicit revelation of the implicit logical backgrounds based on whether CWA or OWA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_world_assumption

45_auto
September 5, 2013, 08:06 AM
What is a CWA class?

A high school class that's talking about voting and gun control?

My guess would be something like "Current World Affairs".

flphotog
September 5, 2013, 08:24 AM
CWA, may be "College for Working Adults" not sure, it's all I could find, new one on me.

http://www.sfcc.edu/college_for_working_adults/how_to_enroll

vaupet
September 5, 2013, 08:27 AM
You could tell him that nobody is allowed to buy an AUTOMATIC weapon, explain the difference and use his technical ignorance to make him look like a fool, done this before in our nice little country. (believe-you-me, we have a great deal more of anti's)

greetz

p

hso
September 5, 2013, 08:33 AM
Don't argue the "facts" since that's not the point.

Ask if he's illustrating a logical falacy with the "approach" just used or if he's expressing a political opinion. That then brings to the attention of the other students that his statement is opioin instead of fact based.

If he says "facts" then ask if he's trying to instigate a discussion since the facts don't bear out the point he's making. If he claims they do, ask if he's an NRA member or a reader of the NRA magazines giving a basis for the statement or if all he knows if popular media representations of the NRA instead of direct knowledge of the organization.

Odds are he's not a member you'll have just drawn him into admitting his opinion is not based on direct experience and have undermined his position with others in the class who are not invested antis.

jim243
September 5, 2013, 08:34 AM
Facts are your friend - of which none of us are entailed to our own set.

It is a emotional topic not a logical one in today's school environment. The debate would be "civil rights vs public safety." Logic is reserved for College where there would be more acceptance of opposite views. In K-12 they are not there to teach you but to educate (2+2=4). Can you believe there was once 9 planets and now only 8, poor Micky he's lost his best friend Pluto. (LOL)

As for logic, I doubt that the hiring of these educators has anything to do with LOGIC, they are not there to teach you how to think.

Jim

Bobson
September 5, 2013, 09:13 AM
I agree with jim243. I've had a few college teachers who made it clear that they felt it was their personal mission to convert people to liberal views on numerous topics, but those who were (typically, but with exceptions) most willing to hear arguments from the other side were philosophy and religion professors.

In a high school course, there ought to be more "safety" in expressing one's views on this sort of topic, but at the same time, I would also expect teachers to be far more condescending in high school. I attended high school in an area that could best be described as a rural farming town; and I'm now attending college in a mostly white-collar area that's dominated by republicans and libertarians, so I've had the luxury of only rarely dealing with liberals in an academic setting.

I definitely wouldn't drop the course, as learning to deal with this sort of teacher is going to be invaluable to you later in life. Even if all you do is learn to shut out the BS and turn in relevant papers without crossing this instructor's point of "give this kid a terrible grade because he disagrees with me." Yes, it does happen. If you can learn to circumnavigate those topics now, you're ahead of the game. That was the hardest part of my early college career. I once had a black political science teacher fail a paper I wrote because I used the term "African American." She claimed it was condescending. I gathered she disagreed with me after I wrote a paper on ...firearms.

JFtheGR8
September 5, 2013, 09:40 AM
I've never heard of "mob voters". Is that like the Chicago welfare voters who organize buses so individuals can vote in both Chicago and Milwaukee? Isn't mob actions at the polls illegal? I don't understand what the teacher is trying to prove other than his own idiocy. His argument doesn't hold up under factual scrutiny. Report him to the school board for intimidating students for exercising a legal and constitutional right if he won't allow a rebuttal.


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osteodoc08
September 5, 2013, 09:47 AM
Sounds like my mandatory cultural awareness class in college. Very one sided....

Frosty Dave
September 5, 2013, 10:10 AM
Never did he give a chance for anyone to raise their hand and chime in

There's your best reason to drop the class. He should be motivating students to debate it among yourselves, not using the classroom as his "bully pulpit."

If he is going to monopolize sociopolitical discussions for the entire term with straw dogs and other fallacies, it's going to make for a long and unrewarding school year. Consider yourself lucky to have started out on a topic where you know enough factual information to see what a poor instructor he is and get out before drop day passes.

Queen_of_Thunder
September 5, 2013, 10:10 AM
I would read The Declaration of Independence to him and then ask him if our forefathers had not been armed with the modern assault weapons and cannon of that time period would we be a free nation today or still be under a monarchy.

DoubleMag
September 5, 2013, 10:38 AM
A simple response would be to raise your hand, once acknowledged, challenge him to an informal debate. You may want to write it all down and present it as a flyer as you're asking. Name the place on campus, such as the greens (or similar outdoor area). Confine the topic to the 2 or 3 'catch phrases' he used, and 2 or 3 points so it doesn't blossom into a 2 hour ordeal (have a time limit). Allow a limited audience, perhaps volunteers from the class:) and to lighten things a bit, the 'winner' gets a PEPSI. And give him 2 date options.
Also check with campus staff re: appropriate venue for a debate, check with them, first.

Ducks in a row. Just a thought !

bdickens
September 5, 2013, 11:29 AM
Report the behavior to the school administration.

zorro45
September 5, 2013, 11:46 AM
Wannabe, remember you are up against a professional speaker who does not usually have his views challenged by an equally skilled opponent. Use this opportunity to hone your debating skills, get your key points down cold, and have a shot at refuting his argument. It is not easy doing this at first. You might also find a like minded classmate to help you tag-team this guy. When there is no set subject matter or curriculum, many classes turn into "indoctrination speeches" which is not useful if it is only one-sided. For what it is worth, guys like this would not last 5 minutes against a skilled pro-gun debater. Study up and be that guy!

BullfrogKen
September 5, 2013, 12:13 PM
Bah, whatever.


If you need the class I'd keep it; point out to him - in front of class - that he's the professor. He's in charge. He doesn't need to yell to prove a point, people uncomfortable in their position yell.

If he wants to have an argument about the NRA, he should seek out someone who is on equal footing to have it and not a student in a classroom where he controls the discussion. A conversation between students is a debate, he wants to be a bully, so unless he enjoys being a bully he ought to cease yelling at you and leave you alone.


At least, that's how I approached such dynamics.

I was mature enough by the time I finally went off to college that I didn't feel the need to argue with professors who got pleasure out of abusing the students over their views. I'd never argue their position at all. I'd just call 'em out as bullies; shamed them for it; and told them to leave me alone.

CoRoMo
September 5, 2013, 02:10 PM
Why not? He's paid his debt to society.Really?
Yes. Read this part...
...a guy who got out of jail two days ago...
I suspect that you read that to mean the guy broke out of jail, but in this instance, I believe the OP teacher meant that the guy served his time and is free to go. That is the sense in which he has paid his debt to society.

Officers'Wife
September 5, 2013, 02:13 PM
Bah, whatever.


If you need the class I'd keep it; point out to him - in front of class - that he's the professor. He's in charge. He doesn't need to yell to prove a point, people uncomfortable in their position yell.

If he wants to have an argument about the NRA, he should seek out someone who is on equal footing to have it and not a student in a classroom where he controls the discussion. A conversation between students is a debate, he wants to be a bully, so unless he enjoys being a bully he ought to cease yelling at you and leave you alone.


At least, that's how I approached such dynamics.

I was mature enough by the time I finally went off to college that I didn't feel the need to argue with professors who got pleasure out of abusing the students over their views. I'd never argue their position at all. I'd just call 'em out as bullies; shamed them for it; and told them to leave me alone.
I wish you had been my adviser when I had certain classes. :(

wannabeagunsmith
September 5, 2013, 08:09 PM
CWA stands for "current world affairs". I forgot to mention that at the end of the class he sarcastically claimed that all liberals expect us to jump on deer's backs and slit their throats in order to kill them. So he is the sort that thinks the 2A is for hunting..And yes I dropped the class. Half of me wants to go confront him, but I am the quiet sort around school, not to make any excuses, so I chose to leave. I want to apologize I honestly feel like crap for letting him get away with all that.

Sulaco
September 5, 2013, 08:14 PM
Don't feel like crap. Taking a public stance isn't for everyone. Some fight in different ways. Everyone here can talk like they'd do something different but we all know when it comes down to it, most do what you did. I probably would have too at your age.

browningguy
September 5, 2013, 08:33 PM
Why not? He's paid his debt to society.

That's why we can't win. If we can't accept a known and convicted criminal shouldn't be able to legally own a firearm then the great middle class is lost to us.

BullfrogKen
September 5, 2013, 08:38 PM
wannabe,

There are times and places for intellectual debates and reasoned arguments. A college class taught by a biased, bully of a professor isn't one of them.

Send an e-mail to the Dept Chair. Tell him why you dropped the class, and if the professor's goal was to have a classroom only full of students who agreed with his politics, he just got one closer to it.

Grassman
September 5, 2013, 09:15 PM
Typical uninformed liberal. Thinks you can just go to any gun shop and walk out with a full auto AK in 20 minutes. Should have stopped him right there and informed him of the process for full auto weaponry.

HOOfan_1
September 5, 2013, 09:23 PM
Crackpots with attitudes?

Fremmer
September 5, 2013, 09:25 PM
At least it's not boring. He's already making you think, eh?

HOOfan_1
September 5, 2013, 09:31 PM
Brownng guy....what does it matter if the convicted felon owns a gun legally or illegally? The guns bullets and possible victims don't know the difference. If we can't trust them with guns, why can we trust them to be free on the streets?

Warp
September 5, 2013, 09:38 PM
I should have. But 1) I never saw a chance to 2) the moron will never change his mind and 3) He may end up tearing apart what I said and make me and gun owners in general seem like idiots.

I've BTDT. You just speak up and make a chance. I had an instructor back in college say that everybody said Bill Clinton was coming for guns, but he wasn't. I spoke up with "Who signed the assault weapons ban"? Oh...yeah. So he says the AWB banned really really really BIG guns. "No, actually, it did not....'explaination'". So he made some comment about bayonets (I mentioned bayo lugs in my explanation). I made some smart comment about being worried about a guy with a rifle also being able to have a knife, and all of the drive by bayonettings that I read about int he paper everyday and he pretty much shut the heck up after that.

Shameful thing is this happened in Indiana, and he was from Wyoming.

SMH

doc2rn
September 5, 2013, 09:49 PM
I would go to the dean of students and report him, even though you have dropped the class. That type of behavior is immature and hardly becoming of someone who is supposed to lead you on current world topics.

Grassman
September 5, 2013, 09:52 PM
Since you were dropping the class anyway, I would have had to pipe up with at least one comment. But that's just me.

larryh1108
September 5, 2013, 09:54 PM
That is the sense in which he has paid his debt to society.

No, part of his debt to society is him giving up his rights to own firearms if he is convictd a felony, something which he was aware of when he made his choice. Read: HIS choice.

If we can't trust them with guns, why can we trust them to be free on the streets?

Because he's proven he has a hard time making decisions in which he voluntarily gives up his right to have guns. It was his choice and he gave up his right.

Warp
September 5, 2013, 09:57 PM
No, part of his debt to society is him giving up his rights to own firearms if he is convictd a felony, something which he was aware of when he made his choice. Read: HIS choice.




This is an entirely different topic that has been done before, but...I disagree.

If a person is 'free in society' they ought to have all of their Rights and Liberties.

This is especially true given the insane number of absolutely asinine "felonies" that can be committed.

HOOfan_1
September 5, 2013, 09:58 PM
Again if we can't trust themm with guns...keep them off the street....because laws mean nothing to them anyway...
Laws and locks are for honest people....

Inebriated
September 5, 2013, 11:11 PM
No, part of his debt to society is him giving up his rights to own firearms if he is convictd a felony, something which he was aware of when he made his choice. Read: HIS choice.
Without delving into it, I want to ask... If society doesn't trust him to have all of his rights when he get's out of prison, why would society trust him to be out of prison at all?

larryh1108
September 5, 2013, 11:17 PM
If society doesn't trust him to have all of his rights when he get's out of prison, why would society trust him to be out of prison at all?


If he knew he'd lose his rights to have arms or vote or to get various jobs, why would he commit the act that put him there?

I agree that we do need to reclassify some felonies as non-violent, victimless or by making some of them misdemeanors but as it sits, that's the penalty, known up front. It is supposed to deter some people from making a bad decision and I truly believe it does just that. Others just don't care and end up losing some rights that should be held dearly.

BullfrogKen
September 5, 2013, 11:17 PM
Wow, we've got a bully professor haranguing his students and driving one out of his classes, and all some of you guys want to discuss is a felon's gun rights.


Hey look over there! Cheerleaders!



:rolleyes:

Warp
September 5, 2013, 11:22 PM
If he knew he'd lose his rights to have arms or vote or to get various jobs, why would he commit the act that put him there?


Here in GA, having a pocket knife with a 2.01" long blade in your car when you park at a stadium for a college football game is a felony.

How many people do you think know that?

Do you think that's reasonable?

Students have been charged with a felony for having a piddly little pocket knife in their car in the parking lot

BullfrogKen
September 5, 2013, 11:27 PM
Yeah, no kidding, right? Completely unreasonable.



Look over there, more cheerleaders!

Inebriated
September 5, 2013, 11:41 PM
Yeah, no kidding, right? Completely unreasonable.



Look over there, more cheerleaders!
Wow, we've got a bully professor haranguing his students and driving one out of his classes, and all some of you guys want to discuss is a felon's gun rights.


Hey look over there! Cheerleaders!
Well it's a good thing you're here then. Two posts complaining about it are SURE to get everyone back on track. :scrutiny:

A Patriot
September 5, 2013, 11:54 PM
CWA = Confiscate Weapons Automatically

BullfrogKen
September 6, 2013, 12:16 AM
I doubt it.


A year after I got out of the Corps I went off to my first year of real college. Not night classes, not satellite classes at my duty station. An honest to goodness college, just like a kid right out of high school.

That first semester I took a core Lit class, and the professor was this NPR clone, who dressed like, spoke like, taught like, and ruled his classes like the haughty NPR personalities he fancied himself as. We had a disagreement over a simple topic, and in typical fashion, rather than counter my position in front of the class he contemptuously dismissed me by declaring an "ignorant grunt wouldn't know anything of the world as my job was to either shoot it or blow it up," and moved on as if I was no longer there.


But I was. I slowly, quietly, confidently stood up, donned my bike jacket, and walked out mid-conversation. And I made a point of using the exit nearest him, so I could march my ass out right in between him and his audience.

And I rode my bike right to his office, parked out front, sat down, and waited for him.

When he showed up, he saw me and began trembling, thinking I was going to assault him. I told him I wanted an apology. "Well OK, I'm sorry if . . ." He began. "No, not here," I said, "when the next class begins, first order of business. You were wrong, you insulted me in front of your class. And I expect your apology to be delivered before the class also."

I turned around, hopped on my bike, and left.


He began the next class with this mealy-mouthed, halfhearted apology, claiming I was unreasonably offended. And in that moment every last student, even those who liked his NPR style, saw him for the jerk he was. He lost the respect he craved, and although I could have scored points arguing the topic, I won by taking away his power and influence when I gave him the chance to act like the elitist bully he was. From that day on, no one respected anything he said.


You can play checkers and win an argument, or you can play chess and defeat your adversary in the long game. This was a freshman class, so he lost his influence over those kids for the four years they were there.

zorro45
September 6, 2013, 12:50 AM
So I guess you did learn something in the Corps besides shooting people and blowing them up! Well done.

RetiredUSNChief
September 6, 2013, 12:57 AM
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!

I could really sinnk my teeth into such a class! I take it that, since you speak of this as an elective class (since you dropped it), that it's a college level class and not high school?

Man, whenever I get around to taking some more college courses I've just GOT to sign myself up for something like this! That and philosophy courses...boy could I have some fun with these!

I'm the kind of guy who is straight forward, and if I'm in school, especially one where I'm paying for all the classes, I expect to receive my training/education as a straight-up event in accordance with the expected curriculum. Deviations are expected and acceptable if they are in compliance with the goal of the class. But slinging personal bovine fertilizer is NOT acceptable to me.

And I'll have absolutely no problems either challenging it or calling the individual to the carpet on his responsibilities over the issue. And the absolute LAST thing any such person will want to do to me is yell at me over it, most especially in a public forum.

That said, you have a valid perspective too, which is essentially that this guy (and his class) is a waste of your time and therefore not worth any further effort on your part. And that's perfectly acceptable, too.


Plenty of examples of "mob voters" can be cited on both sides of the fence. For instance, I'd like to know his opinion on, say, union strike tactics and enforced union membership rules and dues. If ever there was an area where "mob voters" and violence (and extortion) could be linked together, this would be it.

Anyway, it would be quite difficult to battle this guy on his own terms, by which I mean to challenge him directly on any given topic. It's likely to fail for two important reasons (not counting the fact that he's the instructor and controls the curriculum):

1. He'll already have a defense against most anything you'll bring up, valid or not.

2. He'll take you off into a tangent, distracting you from any effective debate you may have.


Therefore, the best way to go toe-to-toe with this guy is to use his own tactics against him...that is, to tangentally attack his own suppositions using the educational topic he's putting forth.

For example, consider the tactic you mentioned:

"Mob voter" (presumably a bad or vindictive thing) illustrated by the example of the NRA. The NRA is placed in a bad light by a set example, thereby linking "mob voter" to "NRA" to "bad thing" to "you're a bad person if you associate with the NRA because you're part of the mob voters".

You can present your own example of "mob voter" by illustrating an example using "unions". And by "unions" you can also associate "tenured professors", if you wish. Then you place said union in a bad light by setting forth a specific example, thereby linking "mob voter" to "union" to "tenured professors" to "bad thing" to "you're a bad person if you associate with tenured professors because you're part of the mob voters".


Doing this does a couple things for you:

1. It keeps you from having to defend yourself against his own statements.

2. It tosses examples of his own philosophy back in his own face which publically demonstrates that his philosophy isn't a one way street AND it puts the onus of defense back in his lap. And the real beauty of this is that he cannot defend against your example without also tearing down the suppositions of his OWN example.

In effect, you'll be using his own efforts to tear down his own brash statements.

:evil:

Remember...you can't mount an effective direct defense against him in a classroom environment because he controls the environment and he sets the agenda. All he has to do to shut you down is to call an end to your defense tactics in the name of continuing the class, if nothing else.

So you have to use his OWN training topics against him in what amounts to a verbal Judo maneuver, to use his own tactics against him. After all, you're discussing his curriculum in the classroom, not the NRA...right?

:evil:

But don't yell...and do NOT accept being yelled at.

(All that said...I'm quite a bit older now, and set in my own ways by training, experience, and pure cussedness. I didn't get to be a Chief in the Navy because of my own naive teen and college days. I got there because I grew up in the years following.)

BullfrogKen
September 6, 2013, 02:00 AM
Chief, as much as a Marine grunt can respect a Chief, I say this with the same.

You are at a disadvantage arguing in a college class simply by virtue of being a student in a college class.

The professor controls the class. He controls the discussion. He has respect already by virtue of the fact he's the professor. He gives the exams, he decides when discussions begin and end. You can't win a discussion with a bully on his terms.


However, those college professors who choose to be bullies rather than teachers love one thing - the respect, admiration, and influence they have over their students. It's a weakness open for a student to exploit. The thing about college students is they like underdogs, and don't like people who abuse their power.

You can spend your time playing a game where they hold all the trump cards, and score points in a game where points don't matter. Or you can shuffle the deck, play a different game, and show them to their class as the bullies they are. Once you do that, they lose credibility and influence, not just in that night, or that class, but in every class his students take under him the rest of the time they're there.

Now I've come across many professors who truly were educators, and I truly enjoyed our discussions and grew from them, even when we had fundamental disagreements.

But the bullies I ran across got different treatment, and I am not ashamed to say I got kicked out of college classes in the process. When that happened I had many students track me down and tell me how they hated the professor once they saw his true colors. Undermining a bully professor's influence has a longer-lasting impact than scoring points in a game you can't win.

RetiredUSNChief
September 6, 2013, 03:04 AM
I agree, BullfrogKen. This is why I acknowledged that the professor controls the environment and the curriculum. It's also why I recommended the tactics I did, in this case. They have the advantage of pointing out fallacies in the professor's arguments without having to directly challenge his previous assertions in his examples. Disputing yours thus has the effect of undermining his own foundation. Once his logic is called into question, then his credibility takes a hit.

However, even the tactics I recommended fail if the professor refuses to allow them to be brought into play, as you said.

And that's fine...because there are more ways to skin a cat than this, as you so eloquently pointed out in post 55. I'm absolutely not intimidated by people who bully, and I'm quite happy to point out to the administration in a case like this that I'm perfectly willing to withdraw my money from their program and spend it elsewhere. This might be pocket change to them, but they really don't like to have money taken out of their pockets after it's already been given to them.

Shoot, the OP had another alternative, which was simply not to engage at all. Choose your battles wisely, as it were.


I, too, have had a few educators, in and out of formal education settings, wherein discussions were truly founts of knowledge and enlightenment, even when there were fundamental disagreements. This was, of course, because we chose to respect our differences and acted accordingly. What a joy those people were to learn under!


I suspect that you and I are of a similar cut, in that we often rise to the challenge that such people pose; and we like to do it in effective ways which they don't expect. I know I smile inside as soon as someone like that does something to raise my hackles, because it now becomes entertainment for me. You and I have a great deal of respect for those in authority, if only because of our backgrounds. However, positional authority only goes so far...that respect has to be earned every day.

I've known a few Gunny's in my time, and they all had my respect not only because they wore the uniform, but because they were "The Gunny"...and the Gunny earns his respect each and every day because that's part of who he is.

A professor likewise automatically has my respect...but he has to EARN that continuing respect. Act unprofessionally and dishonorably and that respect goes away.


And, speaking of the respect between the Marines and the Navy...that reminds me that I need to pack up that Navy flag I bought a while back in my trunk so I don't forget it the next time I visit my brother who served in the Marines. He just put up his flag pole on the property he bought not long ago and Old Glory and the Marine Corps flag proudly tops it each and every day. Next visit will mysteriously see the Navy flag right below Old Glory...

;)

readyeddy
September 6, 2013, 05:09 AM
Ken is right. You're not there to argue with profs. You're there to score grades so you can get into grad school or get that job you wanted.

I used a different writing style for every prof because each one thought they knew how to write. Give them what they think is correct in exchange for grades. It's good practice for other situations in life where you put aside your ego to get what you need.

Remember that profs are human, sometimes too human.

Warp
September 6, 2013, 09:00 AM
Warp, please stop going off topic and picking odd fights. In the mean time, use the search function for pedaphiles in your area and consider moving your kids into the school across the street from them...

The topic was already there. Yes, I responded to an off-topic discussion, but I'm not the one who brought it there.

So, you want to make the topic pedophiles now? Nothing off topic or odd about that...

Officers'Wife
September 6, 2013, 09:12 AM
Hi Chief,

In general, tenured profs are like rainstorms, tornadoes and killing frosts, annoying but survivable. It appeared to me that the further from real life, the more ... uh... challenging the professor became. I had one history prof that was among other things a Holocaust denier that claimed FDR didn't go far enough "socializing" the country. But as an engineering prof pointed out to me I only had to put up with one semester but he could easily ruin my GPA. While I survived the class Dad's work on teaching me to hold my temper was truly and sorely tested.

One gentleman, brought his grandfather to audit the class during a review then started asking questions on Auschwitz. Halfway through the old gentleman stood up and quietly called the prof grossly misinformed, walked to the podium and pulled up his sleeve to show his tattoo. Needless to say the situation went downhill from there. Other than raise the morale of the students the confrontation did little good.

I suppose college should be designed to present a number of different views and teach the discipline to tolerate them. Some are more challenging than others.

Torian
September 6, 2013, 09:20 AM
I can't be too hard on you for not directly challenging your professor. I've had to deal with this in the past, and these same instructors can make you a target when you speak, ultimately affecting your grade in the class. It is really ridiculous and unfortunate that many of our educators today want to push propaganda instead of teaching the facts.

Next time record his rant with your cell phone and post it on youtube. Educators that abuse their positions of authority to influence students like this should be exposed. That tends to work pretty well these days.

If this guy is still acting like a bully in class, he doesn't deserve the opportunity for a dignified response from you. If he is tenured...then it is really unfortunate...because the school is likely to do nothing at all unless your potential youtube clip gets more attention then they'd like.

BullfrogKen
September 6, 2013, 10:30 AM
ruin my GPA

Bah. I worked a full time job for all but those 2 semesters I pretended to be a traditional college student. As a fan of economics, I was fond of saying "Anything more than a C is an over-allocation of resources."


GPA? None of my employers have ever asked or cared about my GPA. Perhaps if I had my sights set on higher education I would have cared more. I focused on learning the material, not doing well on the exams. In fact, if I had a lot happening at the office it wasn't uncommon for me to tell a professor, "I'm running an A, and all we have left is the final. You're not going to be offended if I don't show up to take it, will you?"

Frosty Dave
September 6, 2013, 11:57 AM
I want to apologize I honestly feel like crap for letting him get away with all that.

No apology necessary, you deserve applause. You took an appropriate action. Many of us won't patronize businesses with "No guns" signs; you refused to support a "No guns" instructor.

There is an economic impact to a high school or college when students won't take elective classes. How many other students in that class felt the same as you, but will sit through the class and parrot back what teach wants to hear on exams? If enough of them followed your example and dropped the class, eventually the administration would find someone more suitable for a current affairs class.

The instructor is simply not doing his job. He should be introducing topics by summarizing the pros and cons to an issue, by suggesting historical and current sources to read and listen to, and in doing so provide an environment that encourages an open and informed peer-to-peer discussion. Lecturing the class on "how things are" is OK in chemistry, it's not OK in current affairs.

Lastly, you took appropriate action when you shared your experience here on the forum. The ~1700 views of this thread so far include some people who will learn from what happened to you and apply it to their lives.

Today, you may not think yourself as such because you dropped the class, but you are a gun rights activist.

Torian
September 6, 2013, 02:44 PM
No apology necessary, you deserve applause. You took an appropriate action. Many of us won't patronize businesses with "No guns" signs; you refused to support a "No guns" instructor.

There is an economic impact to a high school or college when students won't take elective classes. How many other students in that class felt the same as you, but will sit through the class and parrot back what teach wants to hear on exams? If enough of them followed your example and dropped the class, eventually the administration would find someone more suitable for a current affairs class.

The instructor is simply not doing his job. He should be introducing topics by summarizing the pros and cons to an issue, by suggesting historical and current sources to read and listen to, and in doing so provide an environment that encourages an open and informed peer-to-peer discussion. Lecturing the class on "how things are" is OK in chemistry, it's not OK in current affairs.

Lastly, you took appropriate action when you shared your experience here on the forum. The ~1700 views of this thread so far include some people who will learn from what happened to you and apply it to their lives.

Today, you may not think yourself as such because you dropped the class, but you are a gun rights activist.
Frosty is right on. It's not your job to critique instructors on how they are failing to fulfill the professional requirements of their position. That is the job of the employer...or school in this case.

The Dean of the department he resides in might be a good start IF they are willing to give you the time of today.

Officers'Wife
September 6, 2013, 02:51 PM
At the time I had dreams of an advanced degree and GPA was a big deal to me. After a certain person tripped over me I put things into perspective. Changed my major started making plans for the future and never looked back.

RetiredUSNChief
September 6, 2013, 08:05 PM
At the time I had dreams of an advanced degree and GPA was a big deal to me. After a certain person tripped over me and put things into perspective. Changed my major started making plans for the future and never looked back.

GPA DOES matter to an extent, and a lot of that depends at what point in your life you're in. As a young student, it means much more because you don't have much else to show a prospective employer in terms of credentials. I remember, because I went to college myself before I joined the Navy.

But for people like myself and BullfrogKen, it's another matter entirely at this point in our lives. We have far more lattitude, because we're NOT naive, inexperienced people with no real-world experience to speak of. We're seasoned adults, already well established in our careers and standing on our own two feet financially. Such people have very little hold over people like us. (And probably people like you, at this point in your own life.)

This is one reason why I said earlier that the OP's response was a perfectly acceptable one. Pick your battles, as it were, because you can't win them all and therefore shouldn't try to win them all. Sometimes keeping one's mouth shut and going with the flow is the right answer, too.


As for wannabeagunsmith's comment "I want to apologize I honestly feel like crap for letting him get away with all that", don't apologize and quit worrying about it. You are not obligated to take on every yahoo on any given topic, and there is absolutely no dishonor in taking the path you did. You're a student with your own goals and the college is your means to acheive them. Not letting someone such as him distract you or put any road blocks in your path is admirable.

:)

wannabeagunsmith
September 6, 2013, 08:10 PM
thanks guys. I wish I could reply to everyone's comments but there are so many! haha. Ken, that story made my day. Awesome to say the least. Oh, I am a high school student for those who asked! I have a hard time listening to lies all day and wanting to shout them down so yeah that is partly why I dropped the class. And thank you to everyone for reassuring me!

Fremmer
September 7, 2013, 07:17 PM
You shouldn't have dropped that class, IMHO.
The professor presented an idea in a certain manner for that type of class. It doesn't matter if his proposition is wrong, right, or in between. He's trying to challenge you intellectually, not brainwash you. But if you only want exposure to your beliefs and like-minded people, that's up to you. You won't learn as much - it's not about which opinion is correct, it's about learning to analyze and argue from different perspectives.

And people - like bosses, customers, investors, and others in the business world - are a lot tougher and meaner than that professor. No offense, but you gotta place differences in opinion aside when it benefits your interests. Like learning that from class.

Fryerpower
September 7, 2013, 10:06 PM
GPA also matters when it is one of the qualifiers for continuing your scholarships.

Zoogster
September 8, 2013, 09:15 AM
They will tell you nobody is coming for your guns as they pass legislation limiting you all the way down to SxS shotguns, along the way implementing more and more tedius and difficult requirements to still own what remains legal.
While simultanesouly reducing cultural acceptance of self defense, as has been shown in Commonwealth locations that once had strong self defense cultures and where you can now go to prison for defending your own home during a home invasion or not limiting your use of force to the level of the home invader.

It is true that all political sides use scare tactics to encourage participation. But in the case of firearms they really are coming for your guns.
In several states the antis continue a march of banning and restrictions, new licensing schemes and requirements and increasing hoops and costs.
Prior to Heller some locations were requiring storage of what guns they even allowed to be owned not just unloaded but actually disassembled as well.

Sol
September 8, 2013, 12:29 PM
Well you know what they call a doctor that graduated first in their class?
Do you know what they call a doctor that graduated last in their class?

A doctor.

beatledog7
September 8, 2013, 04:53 PM
I have two advanced degrees and am a Political Science professor. What wannbe's teacher did was wrong in lots of ways, as has been discussed.

I certainly do control the debate in my classroom, but only in the sense that I sometimes must make small adjustments to guide it along a balanced path or even call a halt if it threatens to get out of control. As long as nobody gets emotional or personal, I allow spirited debate and encourage differing opinions. So yeah, the teacher has to play the role of moderator.

Personal freedom versus centralized control comes up in many contexts, and my students know they are free to express their reasoned opinions. I find I can keep things rational and calm by enforcing a single rule: before a student expresses his or her view, he or she must summarize or restate to my satisfaction the previously expressed position. If a student can do that, he or she demonstrates clarity of thought and the ability to see both sides of a debate. Both are exremely valuable in real education.

My students are pleased that they get as much latitude as they do to openly disagree with each other and even with the textbook author's position. I sometimes decline to express my own position but instead encourage them to focus on reaching their own rational conclusions. They know early on that regarding any multifaceted topic, agreeing with me is not going to help their grade, and disagreeing with me won't hurt it, as long as they can support what they think with a rational argument.

The classroom is about the students and their opportunity to explore a subject. It is not about the man or woman whose name headlines the syllabus, regardless of his or her position on gun control.

Prince Yamato
September 8, 2013, 06:21 PM
He's an idiot, but he's an idiot who gives you a grade. Just do whatever is necessary to get an A in the class. You'll never win in a fight against a teacher. If you create "trouble" he'll label you a trouble maker, your grades will suffer, and he'll tell other teachers that you are "trouble".

My experience has been that most modern academics live in a bubble-regardless of their political bent. It's not worth fighting these people as a student. Get good grades in his class, suck up to him and his idiot behavior, make him feel valued. Compliment something good he says that you agree with, or give an indirect compliment, "I really enjoyed the way you put forth your argument in class"... because you highlight your dumbhattery so well when you open your mouth.

The change you can make is when you graduate, make money, and vote.

You only have a year to deal with this fool, make the best of it.

larryh1108
September 8, 2013, 06:39 PM
In our society, there are many fervent anti-gun people. They can be a peer, a boss or a teacher. You have a strong opinion in the opposite direction but in order to debate on your own behalf, you need to see and understand what the other is saying. Once you see the basis of their argument you can then build your own argument and reasons for your stance. When faced with someone like this and it's a no-win situation then it's best to learn as much as you can about how they think so in the future you have your "guns loaded" when it occurs again, and it will. Like others have said, pick your battles. As Professor Beatledog also said, you need to know where they are coming from to be able to defeat them on their ground.

TonyDedo
September 8, 2013, 10:04 PM
they yell "THEY'RE COMIN FOR OUR GUNS!!" and the donations pour in

He's not entirely wrong in this regard. Have you actually read some of that fundraising mail that I KNOW all of you guys get? Hyperbole is one thing, but some of these letters are downright ridiculous. One of the many bones I have to pick with the NRA...

Now it seems as though your professor is equally ridiculous, but that's the role of the extremists.

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