Why hasn't the Hi Power gone the way of the 1911?


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TennJed
September 7, 2013, 11:42 AM
After reading the "favorite 9mm to shoot" I noticed the Hi Power seems to be by far the most popular. Why hasn't it gone the way of the 1911 and been "cloned" by more companies.

Now before you get your feathers ruffled I am not wanting to have a 1911 vs Hi Power thread, nor would I expect as many manufactures to make them as do 1911s. It just seems like it is such a good platform that we should see more if them. Maybe a sub $500 RIA Hi Power

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wally
September 7, 2013, 11:49 AM
Charles Daly before they went belly up used to bring in the FEG HiPower clone at about $500. Didn't sell all that well, although it appeared to be a nice pistol.


As far as double stack 9mm pistols go, its "low capacity" at 13 rounds.

Kleanbore
September 7, 2013, 11:53 AM
There have been several manufacturers of the Hi-Power.

It is a good design, but the trigger pull leaves something to be desired and is not readily improvable. Also, the safety is difficult for most people to release during the draw. Those factors prevented me from buying one last year.

I wouldn't refer to it as a "platform"-- it is a design. The term "platform" properly refers to computer system elements that support different applications, to various raised flat structures ("plat" means flat, and "form" means shape) that support things, and sometimes, to multi-purpose vehicles to which a number of different modules can be mounted. And, of course to political policy, where the word means ground pan.

bainter1212
September 7, 2013, 12:06 PM
I believe that a new, affordable U.S. made Hi Power introduced into the present market would do quite well. However, by the time a company had gotten tooled up, marketed and started shipping, this whole panic may very well be dead.

Also, the Hi Power (IMO, please don't flame me) is not a visually attractive or "tacticool" looking gun. The 1911 has some very appealing lines. Since most gun enthusiasts or potential gun enthusiasts are guys, naturally many of us, maybe even subconciously, buy partly for looks or clean lines. After all, us men are very visually based. I like the look of the Hi Power because it evokes a strong nostalgia and reverence for the work of John Browning, not because it is objectively good looking. A new shooter who doesn't have that respect for JMB may just see a blocky, heavy gun that looks somewhat outdated.

The 1911 evokes an emotion above and beyond what I get from looking at a Hi Power. It is just an attractive pistol all around. Also, the infinity of options for customization of the 1911 also makes it a more attractive option.

Don't get me wrong here, I would love to own a Hi Power or three....but the price and options just haven't struck a chord with me. I would have snatched up one of the surplus alloy frame models recently for sale by AIM, but through sheer bad timing I had just bought a rifle and didn't have the funds.

nathan
September 7, 2013, 12:18 PM
THe Hungarian PJK 9HP was well worth it , and i have one. I used it to qualify for my my CHL and it shot amazingly tight groups at 15 yrds. I wish i had the money though to get the real Browning Hi Power.

wally
September 7, 2013, 12:20 PM
THe Hungarian PJK 9HP was well worth it

Yes indeed, I picked one up for like $250 when they first came in before the Clinton ban.

mesinge2
September 7, 2013, 12:24 PM
It is a good design, but the trigger pull leaves something to be desired and is not readily improvable. Also, the safety is difficult for most people to release during the draw. Those factors prevented me from buying one last year.


I agree with this completely.

primalmu
September 7, 2013, 12:33 PM
The Hi Power is butt-ugly IMO. IMO, the CZ 75 platform is superior in terms of design and aesthetics.

mdauben
September 7, 2013, 12:52 PM
The Hi Power is butt-ugly IMO. IMO, the CZ 75 platform is superior in terms of design and aesthetics.

On the other hand I think the Hi Power is probably the best looking 9mm semiauto ever made, although I will concede the CZ is a close second. ;)

sixgunner455
September 7, 2013, 12:57 PM
I think the Hi Power is *more* attractive, visually, than the 1911. I have a CZ75 because it fits my hand better than either. 9mm doesn't bother me at all.

leadcounsel
September 7, 2013, 01:08 PM
I fell into the Hi Power hype, John Browning and all, and bought one. It was nice, well kept, and all. I spent an hour removing the mag disconnect to improve the trigger. I wanted to like the gun, but it just never worked out.

I shot it and it was a lackluster gun. Accuracy was acceptable but nothing to write home about. Trigger was still okay. Controls were unremarkable.

The reason the 1911 has kept a following is because it 1) served our nation in many wars and conflicts and other actions, 2) possibly carried by law enforcement, 3) it's a unique design, unlike much of anything else, 4) companies have poured money in to tuning these, 5) it is a gorgeous pistol, and 6) it shoots the .45 ACP, which by itself has a huge following.

savanahsdad
September 7, 2013, 01:14 PM
The Hi Power is butt-ugly IMO. IMO, the CZ 75 platform is superior in terms of design and aesthetics.
you should go vote on the pole "Favored 9mm to shoot" thred / pole , I think the Hi-Power is way out front . I voted UZI for the fun-factor ,

to the OP, it could be the whole 9mm -vs- 45acp thing , or that the 1911 has more history, WWI, WWII, ect ect,, LE use.... funny thing is the Hi-Power has J M Browning's name on it ,I read some where that J M Browning thought or wanted the Browning Hi-Power to be the gun he was remembered for , "His Greatest Gun" ... and I too would buy a nice clone if some one would start making them again

YZ
September 7, 2013, 01:35 PM
I think it was because the 1911, a complex design, has remained the best of its kind, in spite of all attempts to build upon it. Notably for its trigger, handling, and the rate of fire. The Hi Power held no clear advantage over the up-and-coming 9mm dual-action designs. It became a legacy pistol, admired for its old school qualities. I don't know about the cost of manufacturing, but it usually plays a role too.

wow6599
September 7, 2013, 01:58 PM
There are folks who think the Hi-Power is an ugly firearm? I had no idea......

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm31/wow6599/Hi-Power-Standard-MID-051003-l_zps05e8be28.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/wow6599/media/Hi-Power-Standard-MID-051003-l_zps05e8be28.jpg.html)

Torian
September 7, 2013, 02:18 PM
There are folks who think the Hi-Power is an ugly firearm? I had no idea......

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm31/wow6599/Hi-Power-Standard-MID-051003-l_zps05e8be28.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/wow6599/media/Hi-Power-Standard-MID-051003-l_zps05e8be28.jpg.html)
Yep. Some of the youngsters of today don't have quite the appreciation we do for the classics:)

BHP is a very simple design with fewer moving parts than many of handguns we shoot today. Also...compared to the other handguns I own...it is easily the most concealable high-capacity for me. The South African mags I have hold 17 rounds.

The trigger pull however continues to be poor unless you start modifying it from its original design.

tarosean
September 7, 2013, 02:48 PM
The reason the 1911 has kept a following is because it 1) served our nation in many wars and conflicts and other actions, 2) possibly carried by law enforcement, 3) it's a unique design, unlike much of anything else, 4) companies have poured money in to tuning these, 5) it is a gorgeous pistol, and

The hi power is the rest of the worlds "1911" its still used in wars carried by LEO, etc.
We are very unique with our 45ACP. Price point probably hurts it the most along with it's expensive to maintain.

huntershooter
September 7, 2013, 02:49 PM
Although I have (and carry-yes, one at a time...) nine 1911's, I believe the P-35/BHP is head and shoulders above it in terms of appearance.
A true classic along with Colts "P" model, Luger, C-96/Broomhandle Mauser (and 1911).

Redlg155
September 7, 2013, 03:04 PM
Many Americans, including myself, love the .45 Cartridge and the 1911 platform, but more importantly, the cartridge.This being said, the Hi Power is a nice weapon, but even the Brits eventually abandoned it for the Glock.

tarosean
September 7, 2013, 03:10 PM
but even the Brits eventually abandoned it for the Glock.

They bought 25,000 glocks and have 250,000 soldiers. I'm not sure I would call it abandoning...

Drail
September 7, 2013, 03:12 PM
Quite simply because people have been brainwashed into believing that a lightweight polymer gun is somehow "better". Lemmings.

SharpsDressedMan
September 7, 2013, 03:22 PM
Lots of reasons, many already mentioned. There were non-Belgian made guns that didn't quite come up to the quality of the originals, and then the Belgian guns got too expensive. When there were hundreds of other 9mm's to choose from, and the price/quality variables made the Hi Power a headache to know which one to buy, buyers often just chose another gun. The BHP doesn't DO what the 1911 does, so it is not in direct competition to that, either.

Deaf Smith
September 7, 2013, 06:52 PM
After reading the "favorite 9mm to shoot" I noticed the Hi Power seems to be by far the most popular. Why hasn't it gone the way of the 1911 and been "cloned" by more companies.

Now before you get your feathers ruffled I am not wanting to have a 1911 vs Hi Power thread, nor would I expect as many manufactures to make them as do 1911s. It just seems like it is such a good platform that we should see more if them. Maybe a sub $500 RIA Hi Power
Simple.

Glocks last well over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
Glocks have very few parts failures over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
Glocks take corrosion very well. P-35s don't.
Glocks don't bite the hand that feeds them (hammer bite.) P-35s sure do!
Glocks take +p+ all day. P-35's don't.

And hey, I do have a soft spot for the HP.

Deaf

Rob1109
September 7, 2013, 07:13 PM
JMB wished for a high capacity pistol that would solve the problems of the 1911 that he fathered, hense the P-35. However, he died in 1926 long before he even completed the first design. That was completed by his chief designer, a Belgian, whose name I could never pronunce, let alone remember. Unfortunately, he (the Belgian) never got so much as a "thank you". The very beautiful BHP P-35, for the year of production, was arguably the most prolific pistol in the world, manufactured throughout Europe and the middle East. The U.S. was married to the 1911 so why would we revisit the BHP? A simple google search would reveal the number of countries that had the P-35 as standard issue.

Best.

Bartholomew Roberts
September 7, 2013, 07:31 PM
Actually, the Hi-Power has been manufactured by many countries: FN/Browning, Inglis, Indonesia, Chinese Inglis clones, Fabrica Militaire in Argentina, the Kareem in Israel, FEG/Charles Daly in Hungary, and the Indian R-type Inglis clones. Probably a dozen other clones around the world.

As for why we don't see more in the United States, I am not sure. It does seem that the aftermarket parts for 1911 is a lot larger - you can get high quality partially finished 1911 slides and frames. Not so much with the Hi-Power.

I do recall there was a manufacturer who attempted to build a stainless steel Hi-Power here in the states. I've only seen a few of them. They apparently weren't in business long.

As a practical shooter, the Hi-Power is still a great gun but it is more maintenance intensive and expensive to operate than many modern offerings. It lacks the great trigger of the 1911; but it certainly isn't any worse to maintain than a 1911. Not sure why it isn't more popular.

BigG
September 7, 2013, 07:33 PM
My view: The High Power is butt ugly. It is 9mm. The CZ75 is a pretty close clone except for DA trigger.

VAgunner
September 7, 2013, 07:42 PM
JMB wished for a high capacity pistol that would solve the problems of the 1911 that he fathered, hense the P-35. However, he died in 1926 long before he even completed the first design. That was completed by his chief designer, a Belgian, whose name I could never pronunce, let alone remember. Unfortunately, he (the Belgian) never got so much as a "thank you". The very beautiful BHP P-35, for the year of production, was arguably the most prolific pistol in the world, manufactured throughout Europe and the middle East. The U.S. was married to the 1911 so why would we revisit the BHP? A simple google search would reveal the number of countries that had the P-35 as standard issue.

Best.

The Hi Power was a contract gun just like the 1911. If they had asked JMB to make a gun with 2 barrels he would have done it. If they wanted it to be a single shot breech loader he would have done that. LOL That is the nature of a contract gun. It was not an attempt by JMB to correct the "problems" of the 1911. It was designed to the specs of the French contract which it did not win.

You are 100% correct that JMB died prior to its completion. Dieudonné Saive completed the gun. It is as much Saive's design as JMBs. It was the last major pistol project JMB worked on. You can see before JMBs death and the guns which became the Hi Power.

To the OP I think that the days of a all steel 13-15+1 round 9mm has passed. In the world of tactical plastic it is often looked over. I love them but I understand why people pass them over. The trigger is also an issue. For a out of the box trigger it is avg. It is often too heavy and requires some cleaning up before is really sings. I like mine between 5 and 7 lbs depending on the roll of the gun. It will never be a 1911 trigger but a clean crisp consistent 6lbs BHP is a great thing IMHO.

There have been quite a few clones. The FM, Acurus, Charles Daly & FEG etc... none have ever been big sellers here in the US. Personally I think the gun which would sell would be a alloy Hi Power. I would love to see them bring back this configuration. There are a limited number of these which were made for European Police. Some of which have been imported here. Even better would be an option for an alloy gun with a commander slide like FM used to make.

Sergei Mosin
September 7, 2013, 07:47 PM
Dieudonné Saive is the name you're looking for.

9mm and .45 ACP handguns aren't in the same class, and for a long time the 1911 was just about the only game in town when it came to .45 autoloaders, while the Hi Power had plenty of competition from other 9mm pistols (including the 1911.) If you wanted a .45, you bought a 1911, but if you wanted a 9mm you bought a Hi Power...or a SIG...or a Smith...or a 1911. On top of that, for a long time the .45 ACP cartridge was much more popular than the 9mm in the USA. By the time the 9mm really took off here, there were even more choices - Berettas and Glocks and CZs and more. Top it off with a price point that's in SIG territory and the Hi Power's niche is even smaller.

The first handgun I ever fired was a friend's Mark III Hi Power. Beautiful gun. I have a nice old Inglis Hi Power, a collector piece I've never fired, and I keep telling myself I need a shooter-grade Hi Power of my own but I never have gotten around to it. One of these days...

VAgunner
September 7, 2013, 07:49 PM
My view: The High Power is butt ugly. It is 9mm. The CZ75 is a pretty close clone except for DA trigger.

The CZ75 is not a Hi Power clone. There are similarities but the CZ is not based on the BHP design. Take apart a CZ and a BHP trigger and you can see the difference.

TennJed
September 7, 2013, 08:46 PM
Simple.

Glocks last well over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
Glocks have very few parts failures over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
Glocks take corrosion very well. P-35s don't.
Glocks don't bite the hand that feeds them (hammer bite.) P-35s sure do!
Glocks take +p+ all day. P-35's don't.

And hey, I do have a soft spot for the HP.

Deaf

Ok, but I am not sure what any of that has to do with my question. There are plenty of guns that are just as good (or better) than Glocks. Glock has nothing to do with my question / point.

There have been lots of good answers though, good points made. I am just curious as it seems that since Hi Power wins the "most fun to shoot 9mm" contest you would see more clones.

Lots of companies make 1911s
A few companies make SAA clones
A few companies make CZ clones
A few companies make PPK clones (or close to)

Heck Taurus has cloned every gun on earth at one time or another, surprised they have not made a PT-Hi-Power (with huge rollmarks of course)

VAgunner
September 7, 2013, 08:49 PM
Its a numbers game... there are so many surplus BHPs in the market place already are people going to pay $500 to $600 for a nice clone or $500 to $600 for the real deal used?

Personally I buy used all day long.

YZ
September 7, 2013, 09:14 PM
I don't think it was the Glock that made the HP obsolete. Beginning with the P38 and up, its direct competition was the DA/SA pistol, including the CZ and other derivatives. Glock took a market share from all of them.

tomrkba
September 7, 2013, 09:15 PM
It is a good design, but the trigger pull leaves something to be desired and is not readily improvable. Also, the safety is difficult for most people to release during the draw.

HUH?

The safety on the Browning MK III is just fine: perfectly placed and easy to use. A gunsmith can tune the trigger and remove the magazine disconnect. I'd really like to see a "carry ready" gun from them, but they're not interested.

The real problem is that Browning is trying to kill it off. They cranked the price up to $950 or so and make acquiring factory magazines extremely difficult (and expensive).

tarosean
September 7, 2013, 09:20 PM
Ok, but I am not sure what any of that has to do with my question. There are plenty of guns that are just as good (or better) than Glocks. Glock has nothing to do with my question / point.

I'm thinking he/she spent too much time at the kool aid trough

Bartholomew Roberts
September 7, 2013, 09:54 PM
The Hi-Power is perfectly capable of having a very nice trigger, though it will always have a soft reset. However, for some reason FN insists on manufacturing them with these ridiculous 8-10lb single action triggers.

newfalguy101
September 7, 2013, 10:06 PM
JMB wished for a high capacity pistol that would solve the problems of the 1911 that he fathered, hense the P-35. However, he died in 1926 long before he even completed the first design



Not exactly, Browning DID in fact finish and patent the original BHP pistol, however, due to his death Suave' ( ?) finished the High cap portion of the design, or rather re-designed the grip to accept a high cap at the request of some military. France maybe????

Pilot
September 7, 2013, 10:14 PM
Simple.

Glocks last well over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
How do you know have you tested one?

Glocks have very few parts failures over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
What study did this come from?

Glocks take corrosion very well. P-35s don't.
Hmmm, so we leave pistols in water now. My MK III factory Silver Chrome Hi Power never corrodes.

Glocks don't bite the hand that feeds them (hammer bite.) P-35s sure do!
The current iteration of the BHP, the MK III does not bite, and neither did the MK II before it. If they did a simple hammer swap or bob would fix it. You have fat hands?

Glocks take +p+ all day. P-35's don't.
MK III Hi Powers do.

And hey, I do have a soft spot for the HP.
Maybe when you are looking in the mirror with your new 511's. :)


Lots of fail in this post.

Vonderek
September 7, 2013, 10:16 PM
A couple of images of Browning's patent application for his "Grande Puissance".

Bartholomew Roberts
September 7, 2013, 10:31 PM
The same French Army contract that spawned the Hi-Power also spawned the predecessor to the SIG P-210, another underappreciated 9mm. As someone pointed out, many of the Hi-Power features were an attempt to meet contract requirements and/or design around earlier JMB patents. The distinctive slide profile was done to meet weight requirements - though nowadays some of the clones dispense with that modification.

Jim Watson
September 7, 2013, 10:33 PM
Mr Browning designed a gun for FN on a French RFP. They built a few of these, known as the GR (Grand Rendement) but the French turned it down.

Mr Browning passed away and Saive kept tinkering with the design. As Colt/Browning patents expired, Saive plowed them back in for FN. By the time he had a recognizable GP (Grand Puissance, High Power) the NY stock market crashed, leading in The Great Depression and nobody was rearming. It took FN until 1935 to sell the model, to the home market of the Belgian army.

About that time the French adopted their 1935, with Browning tilt barrel lockup and Petter's package lockwork.

Too bad nobody remembered the Grand Browning.
Much earlier, FN had prototyped a gun on the 1911 action in a proprietary 9.65mm cartridge.
Could just as easily have been 9mm P.
Why didn't they produce it?
No customers?
Colt would not license it? They had shared production of Browning's other designs, with "Gentlemen's Agreements" to divide up the world market. Maybe the US Army had something to say.
A neat gun, probably very similar to the 9.8mm Colt.


Oh, by the way, there is a US entrepreneur setting out to build a BHP pattern gun, based somewhat on the beefed up .40 cal guns.

Blueduck
September 7, 2013, 11:04 PM
They bought 25,000 glocks and have 250,000 soldiers. I'm not sure I would call it abandoning...
When you consider that not 10% of soldiers are issued a pistol, well pretty much :)

YZ
September 7, 2013, 11:14 PM
Someone has argued that a gunsmith can improve the HP trigger. That makes it a great vintage pistol perhaps. Modern semi-autos are judged by how they are out of the box.

leadcounsel
September 7, 2013, 11:40 PM
I talked briefly above my thoughts on why the BHP is not more popular...

I should mention that in addition to having owned one personally for awhile, I also carried one as a sidearm on my 2nd deployment, when we were short M9s.

Here's a picture of the BHP I was issued, and a picture of me (right side of photo) with the BHP on my hip in an OWB holster, and another Soldier out exploring the area on some downtime... my guess is that this BHP was 'procured locally.'

Deaf Smith
September 7, 2013, 11:40 PM
Glocks last well over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
How do you know have you tested one? ----------- Yes. I wore out a P-35 in IPSC.

Glocks have very few parts failures over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
What study did this come from? ---------- This is very well known. Like saying it rains. One of the reasons most countries have gone away from P-35s. Even the UK.

Glocks take corrosion very well. P-35s don't.
Hmmm, so we leave pistols in water now. My MK III factory Silver Chrome Hi Power never corrodes. ------ as a combat arm, corrosion resistance is a must.
Glock's finish is more corrosion resistant than stainless steel.

Glocks don't bite the hand that feeds them (hammer bite.) P-35s sure do!
The current iteration of the BHP, the MK III does not bite, and neither did the MK II before it. If they did a simple hammer swap or bob would fix it. You have fat hands?
--------- P-35s are known as flesh biters. I have the MK III and one still gets a nip now and then when drawing fast. And no, I have small hands.

Glocks take +p+ all day. P-35's don't.
MK III Hi Powers do. -------------------- Oh, no they won't. Not in the quantities a Glock will


Easy.

Matno
September 8, 2013, 12:07 AM
About 20 years ago, I had a Smith and Wesson 5904. One day I went to the range with some friends for a "comparison" shoot. In addition to my S&W, we had a Hi Power, Glock 17, and a Sig P226. Went through a lot of rounds that day, and we all agreed that the Sig was the most comfortable and easy to control, the Glock was easy to control (especially for double taps) but perceived recoil was a lot stiffer, the S&W was very soft to shoot but had way too much muzzle flip and a really lousy trigger (smooth DA but WAY too long), and the Hi Power was quite a bit heavier but still had a sharp recoil AND noticeable muzzle flip. Also didn't like the trigger. We unanimously ranked them in that order, and I immediately sold the Smith and bought a Sig. Been happy with it ever since.

I like the hi power from a historical perspective, and I think it looks really cool, but shooting one is just not nearly as nice as a lot of other guns on the market today.

TestPilot
September 8, 2013, 12:54 AM
The reason, I believe is pretty simple.

There was not much marketing effort when the pistol was not manufactured in U.S.

By the time it was marketed in U.S. it was too late. By then, it was competing with the new generation of "wonder nines."

It's an okay pistol for its time, but nothing much to rave about in the time when it was 20~30 years after its appearance either.

VAPOPO
September 8, 2013, 02:14 AM
I love the look of the P35 hate everything else about it. To me it points like a brick. Not quite high point brick but not to far off. I bought one of the Argentine models to see if I liked the pistol with the intent of finding a solid older browning if I did. Figured $200 for the FM was a pretty good deal. It was I sold it for $300 and never looked back. I'll stick with my 1911, CZ's and SIG 220 Carry. I have 3X sized hands and it bit me like a pit bull. The others do not. Oh and the CZ is not a high power clone, more like the bastard child of a SIG 210 and a S&W 59 and I love them.

mljdeckard
September 8, 2013, 02:25 AM
The Charles Daly ones raised my eyebrows.

I would like one, but it has more to do with my being a Browning disciple and wanting to fill out a historical collection than having a good shooter. I would probably put it next to a Luger.

bdb benzino
September 8, 2013, 03:46 AM
I love the look of the P35 hate everything else about it. To me it points like a brick. Not quite high point brick but not to far off.

I'm quite shocked at the number of people saying the P-35 is ugly and points bad, like a lot of you I also like the 1911 and CZ's, but to me the BHP is the pinnacle of ergonomic perfection.
There was even one guy saying it kicks and has bad muzzle flip, where I find it to be one of the quickest & softest shooting 9mm out there.
I had actually overlooked it for a number of years but as soon as I tried one the fit was so natural and it was the easiest gun to be accurate with for me. YMMV

Pilot
September 8, 2013, 03:59 AM
I have CZ's, Sigs, Berettas, HK's, Colts, Rugers, etc. All great pistols. My box stock MK III Hi Power is my most accurate centerfire pistol FOR ME. It is just easy to shoot well, and consistently.

1911Tuner
September 8, 2013, 06:46 AM
The Hi Power was a contract gun just like the 1911. If they had asked JMB to make a gun with 2 barrels he would have done it.

This.

And there weren't any "problems" with either one...1911 or High Power. Both pistols were contracts, and both of them thus had whatever features that were requested by the people who were writing the checks.

And although Saive's finished project did incorporate many of Browning's ideas, Browning not only didn't design the High Power...he never saw one. His contribution was he Grande Rendement, which was shelved shortly before his death in 1926.

I find the High Power quite attractive, and easy to shoot well despite its heavier trigger...which was also likely part of the desiderata...being that its original intent was to be a military sidearm for a country without a strong gun culture. Can't have the conscripts shootin' themselves and their compadres, after all.

Officers'Wife
September 8, 2013, 07:43 AM
I don't believe the Hi Power has the recognition in the US that the 1911 does. Anybody that has watched a war movie knows what a 1911 looks like and that recognition equates to demand which in turn makes it profitable to supply. The HP doesn't have that demand from lack of advertising. Quite frankly, I'd never seen one until Hubby brought his home and I spent most of my formative years being dragged to one firing range or another. You want to see them cloned? Get Matt Damon to use one in one of his movies.

(Please note the last sentence was sarcasm.)

wow6599
September 8, 2013, 08:28 AM
I don't believe the Hi Power has the recognition in the US that the 1911 does. Anybody that has watched a war movie knows what a 1911 looks like and that recognition equates to demand which in turn makes it profitable to supply. The HP doesn't have that demand from lack of advertising. Quite frankly, I'd never seen one until Hubby brought his home and I spent most of my formative years being dragged to one firing range or another. You want to see them cloned? Get Matt Damon to use one in one of his movies.


It's been in a couple of movies.......

(Indiana Jones, James Bond, etc.)

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Browning_Hi-Power

Sergei Mosin
September 8, 2013, 08:44 AM
How I wish Stephen Camp were still here to contribute to this discussion.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/

VAgunner
September 8, 2013, 09:05 AM
It's been in a couple of movies.......

(Indiana Jones, James Bond, etc.)

My favorite The Usual Suspects

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/d/d5/USHipower03.jpg/601px-USHipower03.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/8/87/USHipower02.jpg/800px-USHipower02.jpg

Husker_Fan
September 8, 2013, 09:19 AM
I love both, but actually prefer the hi-power. It fits my hands perfectly. The 1911 has had some advantages.

The 1911 is generally in .45, which Americans love.
The 1911 was an issued sidearm, so anyone who was pictures of soldiers up through the first Gulf War saw 1911's on the sides of America's fighting men.
The Clinton era gun ban limited magazines to 10 rounds. That means a 9mm with a neutered magazine vs. standard 1911.

VAgunner
September 8, 2013, 09:27 AM
The Clinton era gun ban limited magazines to 10 rounds. That means a 9mm with a neutered magazine vs. standard 1911.

This is a great point. For years when one was limited to 10 the mindset was mine as well make those 45 ACP vs 9mm.

Capacity was not king.

Bartholomew Roberts
September 8, 2013, 09:45 AM
I'd bet that most of the people who saw a Hi-Power in a movie probably thought it was a 1911.

pendennis
September 8, 2013, 10:25 AM
There are times for every machine. The Browning Hi Power came along as a military weapon, but didn't have the American provenance of the 1911. The 9mm wasn't considered a man stopper, like the .45 ACP. After WWII, it was fairly easy to obtain surplus 1911's. Not so with Hi Powers.

There were also huge amounts of surplus .45 ACP ammunition. Not so with 9mm.

The 1911 is very simple in design, and it lends itself to modifications that vastly improve the original design. There isn't a single component in the gun which hasn't been improved, and updated. Not so with the Hi Power.

The Hi Power has always been seen as a "European" gun. It has never had the market penetration of the 1911. Browning Firearms never had enough volume to overcome Colt in the handgun business.

I've shot a number of Hi Powers, and I own two in .40 S&W. I love the design, and for a "double stack" design, it fits my hand far better than Beretta, Sig, or others.

However, I can readily understand Browning's desire to let the Hi Power die. With all the other 9mm pistols out there, the Hi Power just doesn't have the "legs" to compete with them.

The Hi Power is going to be one of those designs, like the original Winchester Model 70, and the Colt Woodsman. It will be nostalgic, but for the most part, impractical.

Onmilo
September 8, 2013, 10:46 AM
Ray Liotta uses a High Power in nearly every movie that he has to use a gun,,,,

mljdeckard
September 8, 2013, 11:21 AM
I also agree that the '94 awb played a large role in the current popularity of 1911s.

wow6599
September 8, 2013, 11:21 AM
The Hi Power has always been seen as a "European" gun.

I disagree. If the U.S. had switched from the 1911 after WWI, and went to the BHP for WWII, where would the 1911 be right now?

Just because The Greatest Generation was issued the 1911 in WWII, and US serviceman until the mid 80's, doesn't mean the HP is a European firearm.

Imagine 11 + million G.I.'s returning with experience on a BHP instead of the 1911. KInd of like the still popular .30-'06.....it's what has been passed down.

And for the record, I love 1911's, Hi-Powers and my favorite rifle cartridge is the .30-'06 (my grandfather has something to do with that......he served in Germany during WWII).

bannockburn
September 8, 2013, 11:42 AM
For me the Hi-Power has been the perfect size and fit in a double stack magazine design in a 9mm. First one I had (ring hammer made in 1966), was beautifully made and with a gorgeous polished blue finish but had like a 15 lb. trigger pull, miniscule sights, and a tiny safety that was nearly impossible to use. Accuracy was minute of side of barn.

My current one, a Mk.II, looks much more military issue with its matte parkerized finish but features an outstanding trigger (right out of the box), sights that are actually easy to see and get onto target, and an ambi safety that is a joy to operate.

Bottom line for me with the Hi-Power is that with a few improvements in key areas of the gun, it now works function-wise as good as it feels.

YZ
September 8, 2013, 12:11 PM
The ban was on sales not ownership. Previously purchased hi cap mags were grandfathered. I had my 17 rounders. The limit wasn't a game changer for HP ownership. I think it had been outgunned already, and existed as a vintage pistol for the fans and enthusiasts.

mljdeckard
September 8, 2013, 12:27 PM
But the ban was the timeframe that really brought the economic brands, especially Kimber into the spotlight. Yes, theree was a big pool of hi-caps in the market already, but it wasn't as apparent at the beginning of the ban that it would lapse. A lot of shooters (myself included) started to get a bad taste in our mouths when we would buy a Glock and then have to scrounge around for standard-capacity mags. This combined with a lot of new economical options for 1911s (and a lot of magazine covers with them) opened a lot of eyes to 1911s.

dogtown tom
September 8, 2013, 12:40 PM
wow6599 Quote:
The Hi Power has always been seen as a "European" gun.

I disagree. If the U.S. had switched from the 1911 after WWI, and went to the BHP for WWII, where would the 1911 be right now?
Moot point, since 1. The Hi Power didn't arrive until sixteen years AFTER WWI ended and 2. asking "what ifs" doesn't change the fact that the HP is seen as a "European" gun.


Just because The Greatest Generation was issued the 1911 in WWII, and US serviceman until the mid 80's, doesn't mean the HP is a European firearm.
No, the fact that the Hi Power was built in Belgium by Fabrique National means its a European firearm.;)



Imagine 11 + million G.I.'s returning with experience on a BHP instead of the 1911. KInd of like the still popular .30-'06.....it's what has been passed down.
And if they had returned with Berettas they would regard them as European guns just as we do today. Even though Beretta builds M9's in Maryland doesn't make them "American" does it?

Jim Watson
September 8, 2013, 12:47 PM
If the U.S. had switched from the 1911 after WWI, and went to the BHP for WWII,

Fantasy. There was no slightest chance of the US going 9mm in the 1930s.

There was a chance of the US going 9mm in the 1950s. We had already agreed with NATO that our next service pistol would be a 9mm and trials were actually held. That led Colt to bring out the Commander and S&W the Model 39. The High Standard T3 and Colt T4 were kind of minor players. Inglis showed the Lightweight Browning but did not push it real hard.
But we had plenty of 1911s in stock and spare parts constantly on order, so it was deemed not worth the money. So we stayed with the .45 ACP and bought a lot of .38 revolvers for about the next 30 years.

I have seen one picture of the Inglis. It had an aluminum frame and large flutes in the slide to get the weight down. Durability might not have been great, but I bet it would have been a fine weapon to carry and not bad to shoot.

YZ
September 8, 2013, 01:15 PM
With all due respect - the main reason was romance, and perhaps competitive hand gunnery. The country was ready for a 1911 revival, ban or no ban. Jeff Cooper and the nostalgia felt by many in the military had helped us rediscover it. There was no such craze for the great SIG P220.

Killian
September 8, 2013, 02:05 PM
Its a numbers game... there are so many surplus BHPs in the market place already are people going to pay $500 to $600 for a nice clone or $500 to $600 for the real deal used?

Personally I buy used all day long.

There are some clones out there that can be had for $250. I think Sarco and some ads on Gunbroker have Hi Power clones going for that right now. So then the question becomes, will I buy 2 clones for the price of 1 used factory BHP? If you plan to shoot and carry the gun rather than collect it, I'd say go for the 2 guns.

dogtown tom
September 8, 2013, 02:20 PM
Jim Watson

I have seen one picture of the Inglis. It had an aluminum frame and large flutes in the slide to get the weight down. Durability might not have been great, but I bet it would have been a fine weapon to carry and not bad to shoot.
The Hi Powers that are most commonly referred to as "Inglis" aren't aluminum and didn't have flutes.

Inglis Hi Powers were steel and their tangent sighted "Chinese Contract" models looked nearly identical to those built in Belgium. Later they began building a fixed sight HP with a unique and pronounced "hump" at the rear of the slide with the rear sight. India Ordnance Factories continues to produce a copy of the Inglis at Ishapore.



AFTER WWII, the Canadians attempted to produce HP's outside of their agreement with FN and got spanked for it. The FN agreement between "the Queen" and FN to produce HP's ended when the John Inglis Co. stopped manufacture at the end of WWII.

After WWII, the Canadian Arsenals Limited built around fifty "Lightweight Hi Powers" as prototypes for possible acceptance by the Brits and others.........this didn't sit well with FN. They reminded the Canadians about the 1943 agreement and Canada ended the experiment. These lighweight models WERE aluminum and DID have flutes..........but despite their Inglis markings were not built by the John Inglis Co.

Dr.Rob
September 8, 2013, 03:32 PM
The HP has been cloned in numerous countries as the patent has long expired (unless Browning somehow has extended rights INSIDE the USA). The BHP is arguably the most common military handgun outside the iron and bamboo curtains but isn't unheard of there.

I think The BHP suffered the same fate as the 1911 in the early 80's. There were a HANDFUL of 1911 mfgs. Colt and a couple boutique makers. Browning's design had been around a LONG time and didn't shine like the new crop of so called 'wonder nines'. That included the CZ-75, the Sig 226 and even the Beretta 92. Add Glock to the mix later, and the BHP while a great design, it didn't bring anything "new" to the party.

FEG went out of business for reasons even Charles Daly hasn't been able to explain and was arguably the 2nd largest producer of HP's after FN in the past 30 years or so.

I am unsure who is importing the FM pistol.

Making all steel pistols requires some serious tooling, the former countries of Eastern Europe could produce that on the cheap in a way US companies just can't.

Those $200 FEG's were a STEAL, I know, I have one and have shot the snot out of it.

1911Tuner
September 8, 2013, 04:29 PM
With all due respect - the main reason was romance, and perhaps competitive hand gunnery. The country was ready for a 1911 revival, ban or no ban. Jeff Cooper and the nostalgia felt by many in the military had helped us rediscover it.

All due respect, the 1911 Renaissance and resurgence of interest predated Cooper's Modern Technique and the IPSC competition that it spawned. Cooper and pistol competition came along and gave it a turbo boost, but if the gun hadn't been so imminently well-suited to the task, something else would have bumped it from the top spot in short order.

There was no such craze for the great SIG P220.

*shrug*

Maybe because it wasn't all that great?

YZ
September 8, 2013, 06:04 PM
No Mr Moderator, think it was because the 1911 is a pedigreed American classic, like no other. But also competition friendly.

Deltaboy
September 8, 2013, 06:15 PM
I love them and plan on buying. One some day.

beatledog7
September 8, 2013, 06:26 PM
Many gun makers build 1911-pattern guns. No other gun company makes what can be legitimately be called a Hi Power.

Just about every computer maker makes Windows PCs. Only Apple makes Macs.

I think I see the answer.

1911Tuner
September 8, 2013, 06:41 PM
No Mr Moderator, think it was because the 1911 is a pedigreed American classic, like no other. But also competition friendly.

Suited for competition...sure...but it's interesting and maybe a little amusing when people who don't care much for the 1911 figure that its continuing popularity must be due to nostalgia or romance...or something. Couldn't be that it's just that good for so many people when there are other, far better/superior designs they could choose from. Right?

Incidentally, I've handled a few 220s. Aside from the remarkable out of box accuracy, I wasn't overly impressed with the feel and the overall handling characteristics of the gun. Of course, that's a personal matter and not one that I'd try to force someone else to adopt. Besides...the Sig's basic function is the locked breech, short recoil operated tilting barrel just like the 1911. Aside from caliber, magazine capacity, and a little variation on the controls...there just isn't a lot of difference. There are a lot of Browning's fingerprints on that Sig.

On the nostalgia/romance aspect...I'm hopelessly in love with the Colt 1873 SAA...but on a more practical scale, I'd opt for a Ruger Blackhawk if I had to pick one single-action revolver to do me for life.

If I had my pick of self-loading pistols for the same duty, I'm afraid it would have to be a 1911...and nostalgia has nothing to do with it.

YZ
September 8, 2013, 07:08 PM
And immediately: people who don't care! Save the drama eh? I care. I own one, not my first. Also a certified 1911 armorer. Lead by example of moderation. Now hurry up and erase.

hso
September 8, 2013, 08:35 PM
Even better would be an option for an alloy gun with a commander slide like FM used to make.

http://www.thehighroad.org/picture.php?albumid=13&pictureid=42
That's my carry BHP LW Detective with a standard 2-tone.

:D

tomrkba
September 8, 2013, 09:08 PM
Quote:
The Clinton era gun ban limited magazines to 10 rounds. That means a 9mm with a neutered magazine vs. standard 1911.
This is a great point. For years when one was limited to 10 the mindset was mine as well make those 45 ACP vs 9mm.

Capacity was not king.

I found the 40 S&W version to be quite good and bought two of them because of the capacity limit. The 10 round magazines were expensive even then. I wish I still had one.

Jim Watson
September 8, 2013, 11:39 PM
despite their Inglis markings were not built by the John Inglis Co.


Well, darn, another fake. I'll have to mark up my W.H.B. Smith books.

Walt Sherrill
September 9, 2013, 08:37 AM
The Clinton era gun ban limited magazines to 10 rounds. That means a 9mm with a neutered magazine vs. standard 1911.

This is a great point. For years when one was limited to 10 the mindset was mine as well make those 45 ACP vs 9mm.

As a theory, that makes sense, but I think that many MORE 9mms and .40s were sold during the 10-year "ban" period than .45s..., and despite the current influx of big companies making .45s (some very inexpensively), that is probably still the case -- given the recent rush to "pocketable" (or near-pocketable) handguns. It isn't always JUST mag capacity that influences the buying decision.

I honestly never noticed a big rush to .45s during the Clinton-era BAN, just a big rush as folks struggled to build up a personal (household) inventory of hi-cap mags. Gun and mag companies were cranking 15-rounders out prior to the ban, in anticipation. A couple of new guns (CZs) I bought during that period came with one 10-round and one 15-round mag, as CZ spread the "goodness" around.

MagnunJoe
September 9, 2013, 09:00 AM
Lets see, spend $999 on a brand new gun and you still have to spend $200 for a professional gunsmith to drill a hole into her so U can have ur magazine disconnect and smooth out the trigger? No thank you!

chriske
September 9, 2013, 09:58 AM
Could maybe 1911 pistols be easier / less costly to manufacture ?

Or perhaps the single-action-semi-automatic-pistol-buying-public is heavily prejudiced in favor of the 1911 / .45 ACP , so they sell easier.

dogtown tom
September 9, 2013, 09:59 AM
MagnunJoe Lets see, spend $999 on a brand new gun and you still have to spend $200 for a professional gunsmith to drill a hole into her so U can have ur magazine disconnect and smooth out the trigger? No thank you!
Who the heck pays $200 to a gunsmith to drill a hole in a Hi Power?:scrutiny:

You can punch pout the hole yourself for free. Anyone telling you a hole must be drilled already has one to many in their head.:rolleyes:

Of course its perfectly fine to pay $1200 or more for a new 1911, and then spend a couple of hundred $$$ to ship it back and forth to Les Baer until it runs..........and still has off center primer strikes.:neener:

Pilot
September 9, 2013, 10:10 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/picture.php?albumid=13&pictureid=42
That's my carry BHP LW Detective with a standard 2-tone.

:D
HSO,

Is that a lightweight alloy framed BHP?

Second question. Is that an Argentine FM "Detective"? I have always been intrigued by them.

Will_Power
September 9, 2013, 06:51 PM
The Hi Power is butt-ugly IMO. IMO, the CZ 75 platform is superior in terms of design and aesthetics.

I tend to agree. The CZ 75 is pretty much the penultimate evolution of the Hi-Power.

And there's plenty of CZ clones floating around out there.

Stevie-Ray
September 9, 2013, 06:53 PM
There are folks who think the Hi-Power is an ugly firearm? I had no idea......Nor did I. I think the 1911 absolutely the most beautiful firearm ever invented, but the Hi-Power to me rates second place in that regard. I don't yet have one. Still would love to, though, and expect to have a gorgeous specimen, someday.

YZ
September 9, 2013, 07:25 PM
Three things in man's life you either praise or say nothing about. His gun, his truck, and his wife. In that order.

Walt Sherrill
September 9, 2013, 10:49 PM
I tend to agree. The CZ 75 is pretty much the penultimate evolution of the Hi-Power.

Penultimate (i.e., next to last in a series?)

I hear this claim a lot -- about the CZ being an "improved" BHP, but...

Except for a vague similarity in how the two guns look, and the fact that the CZ uses a variation of the Browning Short Recoil system (which about 75% of all other semi-autos also use), almost NOTHING of the CZ design is based on the BHP design. Internally, the two guns couldn't be more different.

Detail strip them both and you'd think their respective designers came from different planets. (Been there, done that.)

That said, I think they're both handsome firearms... and find it hard to favor one over the other on looks alone (or functionality.)


.

Orion8472
September 10, 2013, 10:11 AM
^ This. I have never considered the CZ pistol line as "being like the Hi Power".

As for which one looks better? It's a toss up many times, . . . but I would probably lean towards the CZ.

BigG
November 15, 2013, 06:36 AM
There are folks who think the Hi-Power is an ugly firearm? I had no idea......

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm31/wow6599/Hi-Power-Standard-MID-051003-l_zps05e8be28.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/wow6599/media/Hi-Power-Standard-MID-051003-l_zps05e8be28.jpg.html)
Yep. That is BUTT ugly. Also, the trigger pull sucks.

1911Tuner
November 15, 2013, 07:16 AM
Lead by example of moderation. Now hurry up and erase.

Oh! Sorry YZ. I forgot you were there until this one got bumped up.

I'd never do that. I rather enjoy your posts.

johnmcl
November 15, 2013, 08:41 AM
I believe we've touched on the concept elsewhere, but I always felt that the BHP was overshadowed by the 1911 due to the exposure in military service. Our fathers and grandfathers saw the 1.9 million 1911s built for WWII that were in use up to 1985.

This theory also applies to the AR platform. It is not that they are so smokin' hot, but it is what we learned on.

Onmilo
November 15, 2013, 08:50 AM
The bad thing about clone guns,
They are almost always cheaply produced versions of the original design that are overpriced for what you end up getting.
The good thing about clone guns,
The proliferation of clone guns almsot always makes the originals rise in value as they suddenly become more desirable.

HOOfan_1
November 15, 2013, 09:02 AM
The bad thing about clone guns,
They are almost always cheaply produced versions of the original design that are overpriced for what you end up getting.
.

Not true with a whole bunch of CZ-75 clones
Not true with a whole bunch of 1911s not made by Colt

Onmilo
November 15, 2013, 09:11 AM
EAA clones of the CZ suck eggs <edited by owen>.
There was a Swiss made copy of the CZ that was pretty good, try finding a bunch in a gun shop.
Foreign copies of the 1911A1 suck eggs <edited by owen> EXCEPT for the ones made on Colt machinery for the internal Military market, i.e. Brazilian, Norwegian, and Argentine made examples.

I have a 1911A1 I built on an Auto Ordnance frame 30 years ago and have rebuilt several times since, still going strong.
The actual assembled pistols from A/O. RIA, whatever you want to call them, suck dog balls.

There are four companies that have built clones of the FN Hi-Power not counting the interesting Asian made workshop clones and the Khyber Pass clones and one of those was made in Indonesia and is considered about as useful as the other Asian guns.
Interesting as a collectible and useless as a serious firearm.
The Inglis, the Argentine Hi-Power, and the FEG are all fairly decent examples of the Hi-Power but NONE of these pistols are true equals of the original FN non war time produced originals.

HOOfan_1
November 15, 2013, 09:19 AM
EAA clones of the CZ suck eggs.
.

EAA imports them. Most of them are made by Tanfoglio. I don't think many people would agree with you that they suck.

Onmilo
November 15, 2013, 09:22 AM
I really don't care if they agree or disagree, a free country allows people to make their own choices.
Having had a few EAA guns pass my way and blown one up in 10mm, I'll express my opinion as I see fit.

jungle
November 15, 2013, 10:38 AM
For a lot of people the BHP is a very good fit and points well, FN makes a quality product, it carries well, it is durable and it is a rare combination in the world of pistols today as an all steel single action. It is a simple pistol with few parts and the trigger can be made to be quite acceptable. Mine have been quite reliable and shown a high degree of practical accuracy.

That said, in a world of cheap and very good poly pistols it just boils down to what you prefer or what you find to fit you best.

In the 50's and 60's there wasn't much in the way of wonder nines and the BHP was clearly the best choice at the time. For some it is still more than adequate.

A newly minted all stainless version might garner some sales, but the competition in the .40/9mm market is chock full of very good pistols and SAO hammer fired pistols are a rarity.

I like the design, fit , finish and feel of the BHP-on the other hand most of my examples were bought for less than the price of a modern plastic fantastic and that makes them a real bargain in my view. Carrying the BHP as an issue pistol for some years may have influenced my opinion.


http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff249/jungle375/94127f74.jpg (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/jungle375/media/94127f74.jpg.html)

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff249/jungle375/DSC_0044.jpg (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/jungle375/media/DSC_0044.jpg.html)

TestPilot
November 15, 2013, 01:32 PM
Or perhaps the single-action-semi-automatic-pistol-buying-public is heavily prejudiced in favor of the 1911 / .45 ACP , so they sell easier.

It is. But, there is a reaon for that prejudice.

Even $500~$800 entry 1911s are easier to shoot than BHP for most people, and does not bite their hand.

Sure, BHP can be tuned, but those are only for few enthusiasts for the most part.

There may have been factory improvements to remove the hammer bite and all, but it was too little too late.

dogtown tom
November 15, 2013, 02:40 PM
johnmcl I believe we've touched on the concept elsewhere, but I always felt that the BHP was overshadowed by the 1911 due to the exposure in military service. Our fathers and grandfathers saw the 1.9 million 1911s built for WWII that were in use up to 1985.
Not to mention the fact that FN was prohibited from importing the Hi Power (and other Browning handgun designs) to the United States until the 1950's.

SC Shooter
November 15, 2013, 02:53 PM
Not true with a whole bunch of CZ-75 clones
Not true with a whole bunch of 1911s not made by Colt
I tend to agree about this comment on good 1911's that are not Colts, but in truth, they are not clones either. I have a Remington 1911 R1S and love the gun and have pumped a ton of rounds through it. However, the fact remains, "it is not a Colt!" I really wish the shooting community would get away from using the term. When Dolly the sheep was cloned, the clone was identical right down to the DNA. You just can't say that about guns.

Walt Sherrill
November 15, 2013, 03:54 PM
I tend to agree about this comment on good 1911's that are not Colts, but in truth, they are not clones either. I have a Remington 1911 R1S and love the gun and have pumped a ton of rounds through it. However, the fact remains, "it is not a Colt!" I really wish the shooting community would get away from using the term. When Dolly the sheep was cloned, the clone was identical right down to the DNA. You just can't say that about guns.

The 1911s made during WWII weren't all COLTS, either. <Grin>

Remington Rand made 700,000 of them, Ithaca made 400,000, as did Colt. A small number of others came from companies like Singer. But, they were all made to Colt's specs and could be called clones.

The term "clone", practically speaking, seems to mean a true copy, like DOLLY: the same design and specs. In the gun world, that also means a general interchangeability of parts. As best I can tell, there are some 1911 "clones" floating around that came that way out of the factory. Not all of these other 1911s are made with the same quality control and attention to detail as the best original 1911s or the pricier guns from Colt, but some of them are still true clones.

Many shooters today weren't shooting back in the mid-to-late 90's when COLT had some serious QC issues; then, having a new Colt was not something people bragged about. That ugly time has been resolved and apparently forgotten.

Most of the CZ look-alikes aren't clones. The Swiss made some true clones for a year or two, under license, in the late 80's, and then switched to the Tanfoglio design.

The Tanfoglio design was originally a copy of the CZ, but they quickly began to make minor changes, and have continued to divurge from the original specs. Almost nothing is interchangeable with the "CZ clones" and a true CZ, anymore. These other guns are "CZ-pattern guns," not clones. In that case, your rant is especially correct.

1911Tuner
November 15, 2013, 04:29 PM
Even $500~$800 entry 1911s are easier to shoot than BHP for most people, and does not bite their hand.

I've never been bothered by the stock High Power trigger...but then again, I was never spoiled by glass rod 56-ounce triggers on 1911s, either...so that may be part of it.

Deaf Smith
November 15, 2013, 05:09 PM
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff249/jungle375/DSC_0044.jpg (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/jungle375/media/DSC_0044.jpg.html)
Way to go Jungle.

Excellent selection there!

Deaf

Torian
November 16, 2013, 02:30 PM
EAA imports them. Most of them are made by Tanfoglio. I don't think many people would agree with you that they suck.

Agreed....and we've been over this before. The weapons themselves are now solid, but it is the customer service for the brand that continues to be abyssmal. Minor issues with the weapon, such as a trigger pin moving under recoil (which I've had with my 10mm), become extremely aggravating once you call their customer service office.

I put up with them because there are very few 10mm doublestack options out there.

barnbwt
November 16, 2013, 03:27 PM
Not to mention the fact that FN was prohibited from importing the Hi Power (and other Browning handgun designs) to the United States until the 1950's.

Oooooohhhh, now it makes sense. I'd always wondered why the HP never took off like the 1911, especially considering how double-stack 9mm DA pistols ended up taking off the instant they were introduced over here, and how utterly ubiquitous the Hi Power was as a sidearm for like every other NATO nation but the US. It figures that protectionist baloney was involved :banghead:

TCB

JR24
November 16, 2013, 05:59 PM
I wish there would be more support, I also wish I could find a .40 S&W one that was a reasonable price.

I like my MKIII quite a bit but have retired it from carry because it'd be a PITA to replace. So I'm "settling" with carrying a Commander length 1911. Plenty of those out there if the current one breaks or is confiscated or whatever.

dogtown tom
November 16, 2013, 07:29 PM
barnbwt .....It figures that protectionist baloney was involved..
Nope.
Just the genius of John Browning at work. JMB knew that competition would net him the most $$$$. Both Colt and FN would pay him a royalty for each pistol they produced.
From "The Browning Hi Power Automatic Pistol" by R. Blake Stephens:
In 1896, JMB sold to Colt the exclusive rights to sell his handgun designs in the US, Great Britain and Ireland.(Canada was part of GB then)
In 1897, JMB sold to Fabrique Nationale the exclusive rights for Belgium, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary and Spain.
All other countries were up for grabs.

In 1912, the contracts were made a bit more specific:
Colt- USA, Greenland, Newfoundland, St Pierre, Miquelon, Mexico, Central America above and including the Canal Zone, and the Antilles (West Indies)
FN- Continental Europe (not inc GB & Ireland)
But.........FN could sell to GB & Ireland if they paid 1.5 francs per automatic pistol. The contracts were for five year periods at a time and renewable.

This is why the Hi Power is more popular outside the US than the 1911.

Most Americans would be shocked to learn of how many of our military small arms are made by FN:
M2 "MaDeuce .50cal machine gun
M249 SAW
M240
M16

Comrade Mike
November 16, 2013, 08:11 PM
God you guys must have a much more refined trigger finger than mine. The BHP with the mag disconnect removed has a fine single action trigger. It's no 1911 because it was never meant to be a 1911. It's a damn reliable combat handgun. Not a hair splitting safe queen.

If you couldn't tell I love the BHP :D

1911Tuner
November 17, 2013, 04:57 AM
It's no 1911 because it was never meant to be a 1911. It's a damn reliable combat handgun.

Well...The 1911 was a combat pistol, too...by design and intent. Neither one was ever meant to be a target pistol.

Esoxchaser
November 17, 2013, 05:47 AM
While I love HP's and regret ever selling one, I feel no sense of urgency to replace one at todays prices. But I have no problem popping for a new M11-A1 or EMP. Maybe it is the trigger on HP's that quash any sense of missing HP's that much. But HP's are among the nicest looking pistols ever made, and feel darn fine in the hand too.
I think I just talked myself into finding a HP and getting a trigger job on it...........

Ash
November 17, 2013, 06:40 AM
Hmmm, a couple of things here though late to the party.

Browning's hand is most certainly involved with the HP, but with the trigger in a bad way. Browning intended the GP to be a striker-fired pistol and so linked the trigger to function in the slide. When Saive redesigned the GP to become the HP, he got lazy and did virtually nothing with the trigger - it still linked to the slide. Well, crap, then it had to link back down to the hammer which the French wanted. That created the silly transfer bar through the slide that nobody anywhere else copied in any other design.

"EAA clones of the CZ suck eggs <edited by owen>.
There was a Swiss made copy of the CZ that was pretty good, try finding a bunch in a gun shop."

That's quite an ironic statement considering the Swiss AT-84S was made from Tanfoglio parts, just like the Witness or P9. Tanfoglio's evolution of the CZ-75 is superior in every way (and I like CZ). Their firing pin block is superior in design resulting in a superior trigger, the corners cut are good ones (like the magazine brake and some of the lightening cuts). Tanfoglio made a mistake by over-hardening slides, which for a while there gave problems with 10mm and 45acp.

I mention Tanfoglio because they are why there are so many CZ's. Tanfoglio supplies or supplied parts for virtually all the CZ copy manufacturers - IMI, Springfield, ITM, Sterling Armaments, the CZ-TT, BUL Transmark, etc. When the Turks got involved, many of their pistols are Tanfoglio clones, not CZ copies. Even Norinco cloned Tanfoglio for the most part. Today, there are some Turks and even Norinco which clone the CZ version of the design, but most remain either made by Tanfoglio or copies of Tanfoglio's design. Heck, even CZ chose Tanfoglio's magazine.

In the day, FEG was the Tanfoglio of the High Power world. Most clones came from FEG parts, the Kareen, the Charles Daly, the FEG, Mauser SA80, even FN counterfeits. Sure, the Arcus is a replacement design (the Kareen II is so called because when FEG went belly up, Arcus designed replaced the Kareen I) and FM in Argentina makes them. FEG went out of business as much because High Powers and Walther PP's aren't the most popular pistols out there. Heck, even FEG believed so as their double action pistols were more based on Smith and Wesson designs than the HP, which is why later HP-looking FEG's had Smith-type barrels.

These days, FM in Argentina, Norinco, and Arcus in Bulgaria are the clones so the manufacturing capacity exists, but they don't compete well against the CZ or its Tanfoglio interpretations because of Saive's laziness with the trigger. That is to say, a Tanfoglio can have a much nicer single action than an HP. I don't say the Tanfoglio rendition of the CZ, or the CZ itself, is better than the HP, but merely to point out difficulty in competing.

There are manufacturers who could start up HP clone production, but nobody is really asking for them.

tarosean
November 17, 2013, 06:50 AM
Well...The 1911 was a combat pistol, too...by design and intent. Neither one was ever meant to be a target pistol.


The often overlooked truth....

Walt Sherrill
November 17, 2013, 08:40 AM
Regarding crappy CZ clones.

That's quite an ironic statement considering the Swiss AT-84S was made from Tanfoglio parts

True, but the original AT-84 was a Swiss-made, licensed copy, and a true clone of the CZ-75. I've never seen an AT-84 in a shop, or for sale -- anywhere!

I've also never found an AT-84s in a pawnshop, but have owned several. I still have a custom AT-84s, and it's one of my favorites. The reason they're so rare is that they were never imported in great numbers. By the time ITM got to building the AT-84s, Tanfoglio was into the business in a big way here in the U.S., too, and it was BIG vs. small.

I agree with those who defend the Tanfoglio versions of the CZ design, and the ones sold under the Witness brand: it's not the guns that are a problem, it's EAA and their notorious customer service. And, surprisingly, about the ONLY problem Tanfoglio guns have been the ones one made to EAA specs for EAA-only sale -- and then mostly .45 and 10mm versions at that, built on the larger frame (with the slide being the problem). The older, smaller-frame Tanfoglio-based guns were trouble free.

Today, there are some Turks and even Norinco which clone the CZ version of the design, but most remain either made by Tanfoglio or copies of Tanfoglio's design. Heck, even CZ chose Tanfoglio's magazine.

I'd love to examine a Norinco version of the CZ-75, but that's hard, here in the US. Our Canadian neighbors can do it, though.

Thus far, every Turkish-made gun I've encountered is either a Tanfoglio-based gun, or has features of both the CZ and Tanfoglio. I haven't run into a true clone yet -- but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. (I think the Tanfoglio design might be more popular because Tanfoglio seems to have made changes that make production a bit less costly.) The Tanfoglio firing pin block is a better design, they did away with the mag brake, and changed the "main spring" design, too...

I have owned several (used, of course) Sphinx CZ-pattern guns, and they seemed more Tanfoglio than CZ in their details. But they were beautifully made with superb fit and finish -- and a cut above both CZ and Tanfoglio guns.

As you note, almost NONE of these guns, after the early AT-84, were CLONES; they were variants and guns built using the basic CZ pattern and Tanfoglio specs. And at Tanfoglio, little things started to change almost immediately, from pin diameters, to things like the extractor mechanism or later, the firing pin block design. Almost NOTHING (except magazines and recoil springs) from a Tanfoglio built in the last 20 years works in a CZ. Don't try a Tanfoglio-pattern slide on a CZ, or vice versa. Or a conversion kit. That seems generally true with the Turkish guns, too, but as noted, there may be exceptions. (I haven't been able to see many of the Turkish-made guns, or attempt a close inspection.)

And as for the comments earlier, about the CZ being designed as a combat handgun... Maybe, maybe not.

The CZ-75 was, according to people familiar with the gun's history, designed to be sold in the West, for the commercial market -- and possibly as a service pistol (police, etc.), but was NEVER intended for military use in the Communist Bloc. The CZ-75 was never adopted by any Communist Bloc nation in that role, except for some very specialized units (like Soviet special operations units). (Note: CZ says the CZ-75 was designed to shoot the Sellier & Bellot 9mm 124 gr. round. That round was NOT used in any combat weapons in the Communist world. The Communist Bloc used 7.65x25 and 9x18, and introducing a new round would have been a logistical nightmare and somewhat impractical. The Czech National Police bought the PCR model, a compact version -- had some big problems with it that were quickly resolved -- and CZs then languished for quite a while.

The problem was the West was embargoing most things coming out of the Communist Countries, and the Communist nations couldn't or didn't get export permission or licensing protection for their products. With the fall of the Communist Bloc, things improved, and they're now being used by some military units -- although Tanfoglio worked out deals with Turkey and Israel to sell their designs first.)

Re: BHPs.

I'd love to run across an early FEG copy of the BHP for sale; I'd snap it up. I think I'd prefer that version to the early FM-made versions, which are licensed copies.

I have a nice old T-series BHP, which has an after-market barrel, but even with the after-market barrel, it's a great gun. (I replaced the damaged factory barrel with an EFK Fire Dragon barrel; it dropped in and is arguably as good as the factory barrel, at least in my gun, and cost less than half as much. FN wants $400+ for a replacement barrel for the BHP.)

For CZ owners: the BHP recoil springs from Wolff fit CZs better than the Wolff "CZ" recoil springs, which are really made to Tanfoglio specs, for the larger Tanfoglio guide rod. And over the past couple of years, Wolff has greatly widened the range of recoil spring weights available for the BHP (CZ), apparently because CZs run better with lower-weight springs than the original BHP offerings.

browningguy
November 17, 2013, 08:37 PM
I've got to say, I've never heard of anyone that thought the Hi Power wasn't one of the most attractive designs ever. Sure it's not all blocky injection molded black plastic with an oversize squared off slide, but that's kind of the point.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/Pistols/PracticalCocoboloGrips1.jpg

The reason it's never taken off in America? It's expensive (and always has been), when it was introduced in 9mm Americans all wanted a .45, it's now competing against $600 plastic wonder nines with 19-20 rounds on board.

I shoot most all my pistol matches now with an XDm in 9mm. Those extra rounds make all the difference when competing. But it surely doesn't carry in an IWB like the BHP.

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