Shipping black powder pistol


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Farnorthdan
September 8, 2013, 01:16 AM
Hi guys,

Got a quick question about shipping black powder pistols, my understanding is there is no requirement for an FFL transfer but am having issues with a recently acquired Ruger old army from an auction site. They are telling me that because its a modern BP pistol that it needs to go through an FFL. I talked to my local FFL and he said they are wrong, that any BP can be shipped direct. I plan on calling my local ATF on Monday to double check. Just wanted to see if any of you have dealt with this before.....thanks guys

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mdauben
September 8, 2013, 01:27 AM
They're wrong. Muzzleloading guns (including cap and ball revolvers) whether antiques or reproductions, are not considered "firearms" under ATF regulations. I've bought several "modern" BP guns (including most recently an Uberti reproduction Navy revolver). online and they were shipped directly to my house. No FFL needed.

Note that this is at the Federal level. I believe there are a couple states that have more stringent laws for muzzleloaders (NY? IL?) and may indeed require use of an FFL.

Willie Sutton
September 8, 2013, 10:16 AM
The shipper is wrong, but you can't force them to do anything they don't want to do. You don't need to call the BATFE, you need to recite the applicable law. Google a bit and you'll find it. One thing to point out to the shipper (if they are an FFL) is that if they have not logged it into their FFL logbook, they already know that it's not a firearm as defined by the Code of Federal Regulations. If it's an individual, then, well... good luck getting them to do something they don't want to do. I've had the same problem with a BP revolver I purchased at auction (from a FFL) and was basically told that their *policy* was only to ship to FFL's even if not required. I told them to pound sand... and bought something else from someone else.

Good luck, and don't forget that idiots abound. :banghead:


Willie


.

whughett
September 8, 2013, 10:25 AM
Perhaps it is the state you or the shipper are in. Some states have restrictions.

Trung Si
September 8, 2013, 10:48 AM
Perhaps it is the state you or the shipper are in. Some states have restrictions.
The state has nothing to do with it, the above responses are all correct, either the seller is trying to get some extra $ from the member, or he are lost in space.:what:

USAF_Vet
September 8, 2013, 11:28 AM
Actually the state may have something to do with it. As mentioned, federally black powder guns are not regulated as firearms and can be shipped to your door without an FFL. But in some states, they are regulated. Michigan, for example, treats black powder guns differently. I cannot have a BP gun shipped to my door, it has to be purchased through an FFL or face to face from an individual. There is no registration of black powder pistols, as far as I know, but there are restrictions.

And his exactly would the shipper get any extra Monet from the buyer? If the buyer is paying for the shipping and an FFL transfer the seller doesn't get anything extra. Trung, nothing about your post makes sense.

Kaeto
September 8, 2013, 11:37 AM
Not any more USAF Vet. That part of the law was changed years ago. You can have a BP gun shipped to you directly in Mi.

USAF_Vet
September 8, 2013, 11:39 AM
Then why does Cabelas still have Michigan in their restricted shipping lost for BP revolvers?

USAF_Vet
September 8, 2013, 11:43 AM
http://www.cabelas.com/assets/warnings/bp_antiquefirearms.gif

USAF_Vet
September 8, 2013, 12:33 PM
I have a cabelas locally, and just got off the phone regarding their BP gun shipment. You can order a black powder gun from them and have it shipped to your door only if they have a notarized affidavit on file. Essentially, its a non federal 4473 type form for legal CYA. NAA has something similar for Michigan residents to order their cap and ball minis.

Really pretty stupid, and the laws regarding c&b pistols is about clear as mud and contradictory.
Don't need a permit to purchase, unless it has been modified to fire fixed ammunition. Can't register the pistol with MSP, but any gun carried with a CPL must be registered. Loaded vehicle carry is also unclear regarding black powder pistols.

Its almost not worth getting into cap and ball in this state.

HexHead
September 8, 2013, 12:36 PM
Let the auction site ship it to your FFL. He shouldn't charge you a transfer fee since he doesn't have to log it in and there's no background check.

USAF_Vet
September 8, 2013, 12:38 PM
Anyway, as far as the OP is concerned, as long as he doesn't live in the states listed in the yellow box, he can have it shipped to his door. The seller, however, ultimately makes the call.

OP, I would suggest you give the seller your FFLs information and have the seller and your FFL hash out the details. Hopefully your FFL can set him straight and inform him that there is no legal requirement to transfer the gun in that manner.

kendak
September 8, 2013, 01:27 PM
the ROA is a grey area because with a simple cyl. change it will shoot .45 Colt cf ....some sellers don't want to take any chances so will only ship to a FFL ..have bought several ROA's online but never had to register one evan though they were shipped to my LGS ...straight BP gun this doesn't apply only the ROA ...take care

ElToro
September 8, 2013, 02:15 PM
Even here in the peoples republik of CA I can have a BP revolver shipped to my front door. Including Ruger old army. I'm sure they will close that loophole soon

Midwest
September 8, 2013, 02:21 PM
In New Jersey a permit to purchase a handgun is required to buy a black powder pistol. And all handguns (including) Black Powder handguns are restricted to one purchase per month. No I am not kidding.

NavyLCDR
September 8, 2013, 05:07 PM
the ROA is a grey area because with a simple cyl. change it will shoot .45 Colt cf ....some sellers don't want to take any chances so will only ship to a FFL ..have bought several ROA's online but never had to register one evan though they were shipped to my LGS ...straight BP gun this doesn't apply only the ROA ...take care
Not a grey area at all. Without a conversion cylinder installed it is still a black powder cap and ball pistol. PERIOD. That's like saying every shotgun is a grey area because all it takes is a hacksaw to turn it into a Short Barelled Shotgun.

Farnorthdan
September 8, 2013, 08:46 PM
My local FFL told me that if the gun was shipped to his store he would have to log it in and charge me for the transfer. Hopefully I can get some clear direction from my local ATF tomorrow that I can pass on to the seller. My biggest gripe is having to pay an additional $50 if they will only ship to my FFL.

Willie Sutton
September 8, 2013, 10:35 PM
^^ Uhh..... :banghead::banghead: :banghead:



The Ruger Old Army is NOT a firearm as defined by federal law.

a FFL can't log in a non-firearm.


He might choose to charge you for a transfer, but he's not "transferring" it as a firearm under the regulations set forth by the BATFE.




"the ROA is a grey area because with a simple cyl. change it will shoot .45 Colt cf"

There are conversion cylinders available for every variety of cap and ball pistol. There's no grey about it: Unless a conversion cylinder is installed, they are not frearms.



But again, you can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

Willie

.

NavyLCDR
September 9, 2013, 01:29 AM
My local FFL told me that if the gun was shipped to his store he would have to log it in and charge me for the transfer. Hopefully I can get some clear direction from my local ATF tomorrow that I can pass on to the seller. My biggest gripe is having to pay an additional $50 if they will only ship to my FFL.

How is the FFL going to transfer the cap and ball pistol to you? Are they going to do a form 4473 and NICS background check? If they do, they are violating the law and subject to a $10,000 fine and loss of NICS privileges, ending their business as a firearms dealer. These actions amount to fraud (charging you for an illegal background check), using the NICS system to enable such fraud. Sources:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=a53cd8184d69a1e9bfe7679b51699693&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title28/28cfr25_main_02.tpl

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

28 CFR 25.6 states:
(a) FFLs may initiate a NICS background check only in connection with a proposed firearm transfer as required by the Brady Act. FFLs are strictly prohibited from initiating a NICS background check for any other purpose.

28 CFR 25.2 states:
Firearm has the same meaning as in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3).

28 CFR 25.11 states:
(a) State or local agencies, FFLs, or individuals violating this subpart A shall be subject to a fine not to exceed $10,000 and subject to cancellation of NICS inquiry privileges.
(2) State or local agencies', FFLs', or individuals' purposefully using the system to perform a check for unauthorized purposes;

Finally 18 USC 921 states:
18 USC 921 - Definitions

(a) As used in this chapter—
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;

NavyLCDR
September 9, 2013, 01:30 AM
You were probably better off just to go to the local sporting goods store and buy one off the shelf. Pay for it at the register cash register, cash and carry, no paperwork, no background check, no muss, no fuss.

deadin
September 9, 2013, 11:24 AM
The only possible reason I can see that might have caused the shipper to question the legality would be in the definition of what a "replica" is.
The Ruger could be considered a replica of a Remington but, technically there were no originals made in stainless steel that I know of.
(Of course, how many original brass framed Colt C&B's have you seen??)

Also, how are modern "straight-line" percussion rifles treated? They are definitely not a "replica" of anything. I know they are not legal for many muzzle-loader hunting seasons.

ivankerley
September 9, 2013, 01:42 PM
You were probably better off just to go to the local sporting goods store and buy one off the shelf. Pay for it at the register cash register, cash and carry, no paperwork, no background check, no muss, no fuss.
Except, Ruger discontinued the old Army a while ago, highly thought of pistol and getting difficult to find, might find a used on in a LGS or Pawn Shop dunno
Gene

kendak
September 9, 2013, 01:56 PM
the seller I bought one of my ROA's from refused to send except to a FFL ...the LGS owner just said "nice pistol" & handed it to me...the other 3 I've bought were sent straight to my home by UPS ...love those ROA's ...BTW ; my LGS charges $5 for a legal FFL transfer maybe you can find another store ?...the LCDR is correct your LGS cannot log it in to start with

Farnorthdan
September 9, 2013, 09:52 PM
Exactly, the ROA was discontinued some years back hence the need to acquire one via auction. anyways:

I did talk directly to my area ATF today and as all have stated this pistol does fall under the non-firearm category as long as it is not shipped with the metallic cartridge conversion cylinder. I sent these yahoos at the auction an email to this effect along with the name and number of the agent I talked to so hopefully they will get a clue and ship the pistol.

zxcvbob
September 9, 2013, 10:03 PM
How is the FFL going to transfer the cap and ball pistol to you? Are they going to do a form 4473 and NICS background check? If they do, they are violating the law and subject to a $10,000 fine and loss of NICS privileges, ending their business as a firearms dealer. These actions amount to fraud (charging you for an illegal background check), using the NICS system to enable such fraud.


Like this:

the LGS owner just said "nice pistol" & handed it to me

Farnorthdan,
Maybe that's how to handle this; goto your LGS or pawn shop and tell them the situation, and see if they'll do the same for a quick $5 or $10. You shouldnt have to do it, but it might be money well spent just for the aggravation saved.

You're not in SE Minnesota are ya? I'll do it for free. I only have a 03 FFL but that's more than enough here since no FFL is really necessary. But it looks all official and stuff :rolleyes:

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