Tactical crap not so crappy?


PDA






Persuader12
September 8, 2013, 07:34 PM
I'm always reading posts where people say not to load up your shotgun with a bunch of tactical crap and just leave it bare bones, and that all that other stuff just adds extra weight. But I contend that many of these items have legitimate purpose if people know what their purpose is. Hint: Looking cool is not one of them.

Sidesaddle: For quick port reloads after your magazine has run empty. That's why it's in close proximity to the port, and also to the main loading area. With a shotgun's limited capacity, having extra rounds that can be loaded quickly is very important.

Light: Don't want to shoot your 6 year old (or want to wait until he's a teenager)? Light is good in the dark, and it's pretty hard to hold a seperate light while using a shotgun. Having one attached to your gun is much better. Use a momentary one so it's not on all the time giving away your position to an intruder.

These are 2 that are easiest for me to justify. Watching the "Art of the Dynamic Shotgun" trailer on youtube, you'll see that the trainers have all kinds of stuff on their shotguns, and those guys are masters at what they do. They'd be the last people to put stuff on their guns to look cool.

Some people will put the above mentioned attachments and much more on their guns to make them look intimidating, without any idea about how to use them to much effect, in which case looking cool is about all the effect they'll get.

If you enjoyed reading about "Tactical crap not so crappy?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
sappyg
September 8, 2013, 09:42 PM
OK.. So what's you're point?

If I don't put these things on my sg am I some kind of a Neanderthal?

To each his own but I'm not that artful or dynamic so I'm fine with my simple 00 buck in a run of the mill magazine on my simple run of the mill shotgun.

Zombie much?

oneounceload
September 8, 2013, 09:47 PM
No kids at home, enough ambient light from both inside and outside the house - if I need more than 5 shots from a shotgun, I need an AR

Do what you want, just don't end up like this guy:

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk308/oneounceload/mallninjagun_zpsdc82b01b.jpg (http://s283.photobucket.com/user/oneounceload/media/mallninjagun_zpsdc82b01b.jpg.html)

Zardaia
September 8, 2013, 10:05 PM
Missing the chainsaw on that AR . As for shotguns, do what you will short of actually degrading capabilities with too much crap. I can certainly see a light being good idea and maybe the extra saddle ammo...but like one said if u need more than 5 from a shotgun in HD, probably wishing for somthing more at that point.

browningguy
September 8, 2013, 10:25 PM
So we should load out pistols with only 5 rounds, or use 5 round hunting mags in our AR's?

Just because if we need more than that we need something different???

Personally I don't care if people think a cricket bat is all the protection they need. In my AR's I keep 30 round mags, in my XDm's 19 rounds, and in my HD shotgun 9 rounds.

Pick what you want to use for HD, then rig it up the way you can use it best. Personally I want whatever gives me an edge, like a light for example.

sappyg
September 8, 2013, 10:28 PM
So we should load out pistols with only 5 rounds, or use 5 round hunting mags in our AR's?

Just because if we need more than that we need something different??


I think you miss the point.

YZ
September 8, 2013, 10:46 PM
A white light and a shellholder are entirely reasonable in a home defense sg. Things like lasers and night vision sights are perhaps too much.

sappyg
September 8, 2013, 11:09 PM
Dude, If I need more than 5 rounds of 00 buck for my fully loaded sg I probably need a doctor more than I need a sidesaddle with more buckshot. Just sayin.

Flashlights are great. Have quite a few but, I don't think I personally need one on my sg..... If it works for you then great. Have at it.

Inebriated
September 8, 2013, 11:40 PM
Tactical is practical.

If something gives you a practical advantage, then go for it. I don't tell people what they should and shouldn't have on their guns. I will, however, challenge a person to show me where the practicality lies in items such as PGO guns, or 3 feet of rail space on guns meant for defending the home.

My HD 870 usually is in its basic configuration. I will put a light on it whenever I get around to buying one, but otherwise, it's essentially stock. 7 rounds of 00 buck is enough for the home (have a few rifles to turn to if that isn't), and 7 slugs are enough for out in the woods. I like my Mesa 6-rounder. It's one of the best out there, but the weight is more than I care to lug around in the woods, and I've never found myself needing the extra 6 rounds, so it rarely sits on the gun.

redstategunnut
September 9, 2013, 12:07 AM
You need a light on a home defense gun only if you care who you shoot.

Virginian
September 9, 2013, 06:48 AM
Tactical is not home defense in my opinion. I cannot fault all of you who want to dress out your shotguns. Times have changed. I still have a fast draw rig for my Colt.
If I thought I needed anything other than any of my standard hunting guns for HD, with plugs, I think I would move. I don't need any light, plenty of ambient. If an intruder is really alert, the last sound they ever hear might be that soft snick of the safety coming off. If I go to court I only want there to be one witness; me.

oneounceload
September 9, 2013, 09:02 AM
So we should load out pistols with only 5 rounds, or use 5 round hunting mags in our AR's?

No one said that did we? Try understanding something called swing dynamics - an AR is aimed and the mag weight is fairly centralized as is a pistol. The shotgun puts that extended mag way out front putting a lot of weight near the muzzle which makes it much harder to swing and utilize.

zhyla
September 9, 2013, 02:22 PM
"I saw it on a Magpul video" is not a good answer to "why is this stuff hanging off of your shotgun?"

I'm w/ oneounce. I don't mind carrying some extra rounds on my gun but I've shot thru the local shotgun match to understand that reloading shotguns in stressful situations is error prone and slow. I'd rather not put a side saddle on it, it's just one more thing to snag on something.

Persuader12
September 9, 2013, 02:26 PM
"I saw it on a Magpul video" is not a good answer to "why is this stuff hanging off of your shotgun?"

Correct. That's one reason I didn't make that statement. What I did say was, "Watching the "Art of the Dynamic Shotgun" trailer on youtube, you'll see that the trainers have all kinds of stuff on their shotguns, and those guys are masters at what they do. They'd be the last people to put stuff on their guns to look cool."

Persuader12
September 9, 2013, 02:29 PM
Dude, If I need more than 5 rounds of 00 buck for my fully loaded sg I probably need a doctor more than I need a sidesaddle with more buckshot. Just sayin.

Then have a doctor next to your bed instead of the ability to reload, if that's what you think is best. I think it's better to have what you actually need. Just sayin.

Fishbed77
September 9, 2013, 02:44 PM
What I did say was, "Watching the "Art of the Dynamic Shotgun" trailer on youtube, you'll see that the trainers have all kinds of stuff on their shotguns, and those guys are masters at what they do.

They also have a vested interest in selling various firearm accessories and doo-dads, since, you know, they're in a Magpul video.

Persuader12
September 9, 2013, 02:56 PM
They also have a vested interest in selling various firearm accessories and doo-dads, since, you know, they're in a Magpul video.

But if you watch the videos and see how well these devices can be used effectively, and you learn to use them effectively yourself through training and practice, then they can be useful, and not just the "tactical crap" that so many people think they are. That's basically the point of this thread.

YZ
September 9, 2013, 03:23 PM
Advertising is a huge industry because its practitioners have the skill to persuade you that you need stuff when you don't. Every single one of us probably has fallen for a "must have" ad one time or another. They don't lie, they just accentuate the positive. Being skeptical about gun ads is a healthy attitude.

Kingcreek
September 9, 2013, 03:43 PM
I've been shooting shotguns for almost 50 years. I've shot many many thousands of rounds. I don't care what other folks think. I know I can shoot better without the any of the extra stuff mounted on my shotgun.
I have an alarm, a large dog, and only my wife in the house. I don't need on board illumination or more rounds than the 5 in the tube. That will do for me and its never too far to the AR or a full size handgun.
I also believe in your rights to pimp your guns up any way you want.

allaroundhunter
September 9, 2013, 03:54 PM
My HD weapons all wear lights. To me it's not tactical, it's practical. If others don't feel that they need a light on their defensive guns then that is perfectly acceptable as well. It means that they thought about it, evaluated it as a possibility, and decided against it.

I do not have a side saddle because my shotgun holds 9+1. However, they can be useful and are not in any way impractical. If you use one, good choice. If you don't, good choice.

I do not have an optic on my defensive shotgun. To me those are leaning much more towards unnecessary than the two previously mentioned accessories.

Double_J
September 9, 2013, 04:24 PM
I do not have a light on my shotgun right now due to the light bulb going out. I had it mounted for several years and had no problem with it. I also have an elastic butt-cuff with more ammo on the stock. That is as far as I will go for my HD shotgun. I also have a loaded pistol within reach, just in case the 10-11 shells from the shotgun fail to make the threat stop. I must also add that I live alone and have a clear line of fire throughout my house, otherwise I would have a slightly different setup.

stressed
September 9, 2013, 06:15 PM
I would recommend a small but bright surefire on a weapon, as it illuminates the threat, and can blind them which is an added bonus. Only downside is they may fire at the light if they are armed, which is why LEO's hold their flashlights high and out to left.

That photoshopped M4 with the scope and spotlight minus all the other crap looks more like a poacher's kit then anything tacticool.

Girodin
September 9, 2013, 06:18 PM
If you need to see in low light then a light is a must. If you want to be able to reload or switch to a slug then a means of carrying that ammo is a must. A side saddle might well make more sense than other options, particularly for a HD gun.

A lot of people that bemoan lights don't have the first idea about how to properly use one. I've never met a critique of a light that has any kind of low light training. Now there maybe an argument why one doesn't need one in particular circumstances but people that universally argue against them are not people who I would put much stock in.

Purpose should dictate gear. Furthermore, gear is only useful if you know how to use it. I have a pretty simple test for anything I add to a gun these days. Does it better help me accomplish what that gun is built to do. If one goes and does a few shotgun classes and does some low light work it will become pretty obvious what constitutes a useful addition and what does not. As to what some random Joe on the internet thinks, who really cares. This is even more true when it is more likely than not that the random Joe probably never has received any training in defensive use of a shotgun.

One last note about equipping a shotgun. People often fail to draw a line between a purely HD shotgun and what I would call a "fighting shotgun." A fighting shotgun will often have a broader role and may need additional capabilities than what might be called for in just a HD role. For example, shooting slugs might not be something that some people intend to do with their HD gun. If you have no plan to ever shoot a slug then learning slug transitions become less important as does having a means of carrying slugs, or a good sighting system for them. For a HD gun I don't know that having an aimpoint micro for example would be a HUGE advantage over a bead sight. For a broader fighting gun that might be called upon to make a 100 yard slug shot, I know that it is.

Within HD there is something that seems to plague discussions on this board. That is that people seem to not be able to wrap their minds around the idea that not everyone's house, family, skill set, neighborhood, etc is just like theirs. These differences can be significant when choosing guns and gear for HD. Furthermore, people seem to often fall into the "my gun fight" fallacy. Larry Corriea wrote an article on this. The basic idea is that people get in their minds what a self defense shooting will be like and consist of and prepare for that and judge things against only that. In doing so the exclude other very plausible scenarios. I will include the text of his article in a separate post below.

A few thoughts in response to some of the above:

enough ambient light from both inside and outside the house

I don't need any light, plenty of ambient.

I suppose as long as the power never goes out that will work.

They also have a vested interest in selling various firearm accessories and doo-dads, since, you know, they're in a Magpul video.

Have you seen the video in question? Magpull doesn't make a side saddle. At the time the video was made they didn't even have a line of shotgun accessories. Travis and Chris use various modes of carrying ammo and although its been a while since I've seen it, I don't recall them pushing any one brand or even just one mode of carrying ammo in that video. In fact one of the pieces of equipment used was a "custom" two shell carrier that Travis had cobbled together for his 1100 if I recall correctly.

In sum, identify the role of your weapon. Seek training in how to use that weapon. Identify specific needs and advantages that particular equipment might provide. Train more with the equipment selected and see if it provides added value or only added weight.

Girodin
September 9, 2013, 06:23 PM
The above mentioned artilce

My Gunfight - "Thinking Outside Your Box"
"Thinking outside your box"

"...Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong......"
by Larry Correia

I've been a concealed carry instructor for five years, I hang out with a bunch of gun nuts, and I've been around self-defense buffs for most of my adult life. In that time I've seen a recurring theme, and unfortunately it can be a dangerous one. Many of us have something in common.

I call it My Gunfight. We've imagined a scene, a violent encounter, in our head. And in this scene, we take decisive action and we prevail and save the day. Many of us have a mental fabrication of what My Gunfight is going to be...
These are just a few examples of assumptions caused by My Gunfight. ..

Warp
September 9, 2013, 06:26 PM
If you need to see in low light then a light is a must. If you want to be able to reload or switch to a slug then a means of carrying that ammo is a must. A side saddle might well make more sense than other options, particularly for a HD gun.

A lot of people that bemoan lights don't have the first idea about how to properly use one. I've never met a critique of a light that has any kind of low light training...

Good post, and good points.

Inebriated
September 9, 2013, 06:43 PM
They also have a vested interest in selling various firearm accessories and doo-dads, since, you know, they're in a Magpul video.

Lol... You didn't watch the video, did you?

oneounceload
September 9, 2013, 06:44 PM
Quote:
enough ambient light from both inside and outside the house
Quote:
I don't need any light, plenty of ambient.
I suppose as long as the power never goes out that will work.


Why it is called ambient light- if the power is out not a lot to worry about.

If you want to imagine scenarios that defy the odds of a meteor hitting you as you cash your Powerball winning ticket, you go right ahead. Some of us are more interested in living a life not filled with fear and paranoia about some imagined scenario thought up by watching a video game

YMMV

Warp
September 9, 2013, 06:47 PM
Why it is called ambient light- if the power is out not a lot to worry about.

If you want to imagine scenarios that defy the odds of a meteor hitting you as you cash your Powerball winning ticket, you go right ahead. Some of us are more interested in living a life not filled with fear and paranoia about some imagined scenario thought up by watching a video game

YMMV

I like how you compare the chances of a power outage to a meteor strike.

That really gives credibility to your post.

But seriously...you are quite out of line telling people that they live "a life filled with fear and paranoia" because they choose to put a light on their defensive firearm.

I wonder how many people would tell you that you are living a life filled with fear and paranoia for having a defensive firearm at all, actually...

Virginian
September 9, 2013, 07:05 PM
Why do you feel you need to justify anything? It's your gun and your money, have at it. I chose to buy a portable generator. Last hurricane, the lights didn't go out, but they go out all the time on a clear day. :mad:

YZ
September 9, 2013, 07:16 PM
I also don't feel the need to stuff my bathing suit with a gun or have one in the shower or while I am on the toilet......... What? You still haven't bought the Concealed Carry Underpants from Glock Store? Lenny Magill himself told you to!

Inebriated
September 9, 2013, 07:24 PM
I lived through more hurricanes in 2004 than most of you have in your lives and NEVER lost power, but if you want to tighten your tinfoil tighter, please feel free to go ahead......as I said SOME of us are not so paranoid to try and imagine scenarios so remote that we live our lives in constant fear that sometime, maybe some meth-head group will wait till a blackout to do a home invasion

We aren't you. I don't care what you've lived through or when you think you'll need a firearm. To say that it's paranoid to have a light on your firearm in the event that you have to use it during a power outage is as close-minded as every anti calling YOU paranoid for even owning a gun to begin with.

Warp
September 9, 2013, 07:32 PM
I lived through more hurricanes in 2004 than most of you have in your lives and NEVER lost power, but if you want to tighten your tinfoil tighter, please feel free to go ahead......as I said SOME of us are not so paranoid to try and imagine scenarios so remote that we live our lives in constant fear that sometime, maybe some meth-head group will wait till a blackout to do a home invasion

deleted

But the nice thing about this country is that you are free to do so, (until they classify you as paranoid take your guns away); but then I also don't feel the need to stuff my bathing suit with a gun or have one in the shower or while I am on the toilet.........
I'm too busy enjoying life

And I've been in a storm that left us without power for 6.5 days, as well as others that left us without power for periods of time ranging from a few hours to 2 days.

I also have lived in, or stayed at, many residences where even with regular ambient light you might not be able to identify the difference between a person with a gun, a possum, a deer, or a coyote in the backyard.

allaroundhunter
September 9, 2013, 07:38 PM
And I've been in a storm that left us without power for 6.5 days, as well as others that left us without power for periods of time ranging from a few hours to 2 days.

I also have lived in, or stayed at, many residences where even with regular ambient light you might not be able to identify the difference between a person with a gun, a possum, a deer, or a coyote in the backyard.

I'm with you... But I guess since he hasn't been in those situations it means that the rest of us never have either and are just exaggerating or recalling a dream :rolleyes:

Al Thompson
September 9, 2013, 07:39 PM
Gee whiz. :rolleyes:

If you enjoyed reading about "Tactical crap not so crappy?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!