Shotgun vs. AR15


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JAshley73
September 13, 2013, 08:54 PM
Ok, I know this has been beaten to death, but I have a certain set of wants and restrictions that makes this discussion a little more specific and productive.

My Wants - Let's establish this first - that I want one of these, not need. My first thought was that I wanted a light, 20ga semi-auto shotgun with plastic hardware. The top-pick is a Benelli M2 20ga, probably with a 26" barrel, with the comfortech stock. It would be a shotgun of the highest quality, would be pretty useful for several things, and would see some use. Now, the M2 Comfortech is a $1200 gun, give or take. More affordable options would be the M2 American (on sale locally for $799, less incentives and rebates,) or the Franchi Affinity ($700ish.) But then I saw an add for a Smith & Wesson M&P-Sport for $599, and it got me thinking. I'd kind of like to have an AR-15 rifle too...

Intended Uses - I originally wanted a gun that I could take to a "fighting shotgun" class without worrying about damaging pretty wood and blued steel. I have a 12ga Beretta A303 Ducks Unlimited now, which is a fantastic gun, but it is awfully pretty, and it would break my heart to ding and scratch it up. The Beretta is also 7 and a half pounds, so for a wimp like me, something light and fast would be pretty neat.

This gun would be mainly a recreational gun. I would primarily use it for weekend trap (not league shooting,) the occasional game of sporting clays, and in the future, hopefully some training classes, and maybe even a little small-game a bird hunting. It would also reside in the safe, tube loaded, for "bump-in-the-night" duty. I know that's a lot to ask of one firearm, as one gun can niether be a great trap gun, and a great "Tactical" gun. More on this later.

Important Considerations I realize that in many cases, the AR-15 carbine is the superior choice for a defensive firearm - particularly when you have to move. The AR-15 has greater ammo capacity, usually lighter weight, lighter recoil, and can adjust to different shooters fairly well and quickly. They may even be easier to learn - I wouldn't know, as I've never fired one... But, there aren't many places where I can fire and practice. There are only a few commercial ranges nearby, all of which aren't conducive to anything more than stationary target shooting. So I'd have to pay to shoot, in an extremely limiting environment. Plus, ammo is twice what shotgun ammo costs. It's hard to stomach that a full magazine costs over $15... So due to the cost of ammo, and the cost and restrictions on range time, I probably wouldn't get much range time with an AR-15.

For a shotgun however, it's quite the opposite. The nearby sportsman's club of which I'm a member, has a trap range, and is only 3-4 miles from home. I get to shoot for free (bring your own clays...) any time except Sundays, which is when the trap-shoot meets take place, and then it's $4 trap rounds, plus other fun games. There's a skeet and sporting clays club nearby also, so there's more opportunity to practice.

Now, I'm a firm believer in practicing with what you will use to fight, and fight with what you're best at using. The practice options available to me with a shotgun play into this, and would offer far greater opportunity to become familiar with the gun, and keep any skills honed and sharp. Plus, I figure if I can hit a 4" circle that's traveling 50mph with confidence, then firing at room distance should be doable...

Like I said earlier, I realize that a 6lb, 20ga with a 26" barrel isn't an ideal gun for much anything. I'm not too worried about it being a handicap on the trap range, as I shoot for fun, and not for competition. Plus, at 16 yards, how much difference would it make for an amateur anyway? I would imagine it would be ok for skeet and sporting clays as well. Again, not ideal but not much of a handicap. And with regards to an HD gun, I realize that 26" is a little long, but I'm not clearing houses either. So I don't a 26" HD gun to be any disadvantage when crouched behind some cover, or pointing down the hallway. A 6lb gun however would be great for fighting fatigue, and would be pretty welcome if I ever take up any hunting. Oh, and the M2's and Affinity's can accept magazine extensions, so a few extra rounds capacity would be welcome as well. And birdshot is still half the price of 5.56 ammo... However, the shotguns of my choice, would still be more expensive up front than the M&P Sport, so this time, the shotgun would not be the cheaper option...

And then, the little kid inside me thinks an AR-15 would be fun too, despite my best "practical" reasoning...

Ok, I think I've rambled on enough for now. But I'd love to hear your thoughts. What say you? Buy the shotgun, the AR-15, or save the cash and head to the bar?

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JShirley
September 13, 2013, 09:32 PM
If you can practice with one, but not the other, get the one you'll practice with.

Warp
September 13, 2013, 10:26 PM
JAshley73: Some thoughts, in no particular order, that I will share with you in hopes of furthering your decision making process:

*As mentioned above, a gun you are going to go out and shoot trumps one that will sit around.

*I don't see where you'd be able to go out and shoot with movement, etc, with the shotgun, either.

*You can get a lot of training in on a square, stationary range for live fire + weapon manipulation and movement at home with a cleared/safe gun.

*Current pricing on 5.56 is about $0.40-$0.45 per round for pretty good stuff, and $1/round for the absolute best factory ammo available. Unless your non-trap/skeet ranges allow birdshot (unlikely), comparing to buckshot or slugs would be more apt, and 12 gauge buckshot runs at least $0.50 per shell for the least expensive stuff out there.

*The Benelli M2 with comfortech stock looks like a hell of a shotgun. I am seriously considering trying to get one for Christmas. Not sure yet if I'll go for it or something else.

*I would not recommend a S&W Sport as a first AR now that they have switched to an unlined 1:9 twist barrel. You're probably looking at more like $800-$1,100 for an good/great AR.

*You didn't really say anything about what you would do with the AR other than have it for HD/defensive use. You spoke a lot about what else you could/would do with the shotgun.

To me it reads like you would enjoy the Benelli more, and get more use out of it. I would look into getting a second barrel for it. A 26"+ barrel isn't very good for HD.

JAshley73
September 13, 2013, 11:22 PM
Thanks Warp. My responses in Red.
JAshley73: Some thoughts, in no particular order, that I will share with you in hopes of furthering your decision making process:

*As mentioned above, a gun you are going to go out and shoot trumps one that will sit around.
I absolutely agree.

*I don't see where you'd be able to go out and shoot with movement, etc, with the shotgun, either.
The range is usually empty during the week, so practicing there isn't much of an issue. Assuming safe practice and permission from the club, I don't think it would be much of a problem. (I may have to save the barrel-rolls for home though... ;) )

*You can get a lot of training in on a square, stationary range for live fire + weapon manipulation and movement at home with a cleared/safe gun.
I'm not going to argue that, you're probably right. But, there aren't many rifle friendly ranges close by that I'm comfortable going to. I'll spare the boring details and reasons why...

*Current pricing on 5.56 is about $0.40-$0.45 per round for pretty good stuff, and $1/round for the absolute best factory ammo available. Unless your non-trap/skeet ranges allow birdshot (unlikely), comparing to buckshot or slugs would be more apt, and 12 gauge buckshot runs at least $0.50 per shell for the least expensive stuff out there.
Birdshot isn't a problem where I'd be doing the majority of practice. Slugs and buck are more of an issue, but they aren't really high-volume ammo anyway.

*The Benelli M2 with comfortech stock looks like a hell of a shotgun. I am seriously considering trying to get one for Christmas. Not sure yet if I'll go for it or something else.
I arrived at the M2 because of its features and attributes, not just because it's a "Benelli." I like that it's light in weight, has a thin, comfortable forearm, a good balance, and its out of the box stock dimensions seem to fit me well. The comfortech stock is appealing for longer sessions, and heavier loads, but i don't know if it's worth the extra $400-$500 over an M2 American (without the comfortech stock but still a good recoil pad,) or a Franchi Affinity, (very, very similar to the M2, and made in Benelli's factory, with outstanding reviews.)

*I would not recommend a S&W Sport as a first AR now that they have switched to an unlined 1:9 twist barrel. You're probably looking at more like $800-$1,100 for an good/great AR.
I really don't know much about them, other than they seem to have good reviews, and carry a good reputation. I was not aware they changed the barrel, and was assuming it was still the same 1:8 melonite coated 5R barrel. Truth be told, I'm not sure I'd need a fancy AR-15 rifle. Reliable function would be the first priority of course. I'm not looking for a combat-reliable weapon, but I don't want a turd either. I was under the impression that the M&P Sport was a reliable gun. And of course its price is very attractive.

*You didn't really say anything about what you would do with the AR other than have it for HD/defensive use. You spoke a lot about what else you could/would do with the shotgun.
That pretty much speaks to my mindset between the two. Without a flexible range or land of my own to shoot rifles recreation-ally, and without other hunting uses, I don't have much use for a rifle... It would be a range toy and HD gun at most.

To me it reads like you would enjoy the Benelli more, and get more use out of it. I would look into getting a second barrel for it. A 26"+ barrel isn't very good for HD.
I can check on extra barrels, but there's two problems with that. One is cost - I doubt barrels from Benelli are going to be affordable. Two, is that practice wouldn't be fully representative of what I would be using to "fight" with, so to speak. I'd rather just keep the one configuration, at least as much as possible. They do offer a 24" barrel, but that might be a little short for clay games, and I don't think I'd notice the 2" inside the house... I kind of think the 24" would be too much of a compromise...

Recruit
September 13, 2013, 11:56 PM
Just ask Joe Biden :rolleyes:

JRs12Valve
September 14, 2013, 12:56 AM
Quick $0.02.

Intended Uses - I originally wanted a gun that I could take to a "fighting shotgun" class without worrying about damaging pretty wood and blued steel. I have a 12ga Beretta A303 Ducks Unlimited now, which is a fantastic gun, but it is awfully pretty, and it would break my heart to ding and scratch it up. The Beretta is also 7 and a half pounds, so for a wimp like me, something light and fast would be pretty neat.

This gun would be mainly a recreational gun. I would primarily use it for weekend trap (not league shooting,) the occasional game of sporting clays, and in the future, hopefully some training classes, and maybe even a little small-game a bird hunting. It would also reside in the safe, tube loaded, for "bump-in-the-night" duty. I know that's a lot to ask of one firearm, as one gun can niether be a great trap gun, and a great "Tactical" gun. More on this later.

You're looking for a recreational shotgun, that can be turned into a defense shotgun. Get a scattergun that has interchangeable barrels. Long barrel for clays, short for the "bump in the night" stuff.

It seems to me that's what you want, so get it. You also want an AR. Save and get both.

Next: Where are your bump in the night situations going to take place? A shotgun is a poor substitute for a rifle at ranges past 15-20 yards, in my opinion.

Bobson
September 14, 2013, 01:39 AM
Next: Where are your bump in the night situations going to take place? A shotgun is a poor substitute for a rifle at ranges past 15-20 yards, in my opinion
Luckily the hallway outside my master bedroom is only 12 yards to the guest quarters, and my team of armed guards cover the rest of the palace.

jmr40
September 14, 2013, 08:35 AM
Some thoughts:

A shotgun, 12 or 20 ga, loaded with buckshot or slugs generates 25-30 ft.lbs of recoil. That is 300 mag territory. While a 20 will generate a little less recoil in guns of equal weight, most 20's are lighter, which pretty much evens out the recoil. An AR generates about 5 ft lbs recoil.

Generally speaking shotguns are cheaper, especially if choosing a pump.

The AR will be lighter, shorter and hold more rounds.

Slugs and buckshot are both more likely to overpenetrate and cause unintended damage or injuries than softpoint 223 ammo.

At close range indoor encounters the shotgun patterns are not big enough to offer any better chances of a hit. The shotgun is most effective at ranges from 15-30 yards where patterns are large enough to increase the potential of hits on moving targets. Realistically, indoors a handgun is probably better than either.

I'd call it a perfromance tie on very close range, but the AR has a definite edge beyong 30-40 yards. Although shooting at those ranges would be rare, and hard to justify as self defense.

At close range both are equally effective if you hit someone.

I own both, including handguns. All 3 options can work, it just depends on the situation and how they are used.

JShirley
September 14, 2013, 08:56 AM
"Realistically, indoors a handgun is probably better than either."

It's a shame you said that, because the rest of your post is so full of fact. A short carbine is not only much more effective than any duty caliber handgun, but it's also faster and more accurate onto target.


John

FullEffect1911
September 14, 2013, 08:58 AM
Both would be very effective at close range (inside 20 yards). Federal flitecontrol buckshot extends that effective range of buckshot to ranges outside of the traditional useful range of buckshot, but it seems to only exist in 12 gauge ammo.

I recognize that the AR15 is probably "the best" option for 2 legged predators if you are practiced with it. If you are good with a shotgun you will not be at any real disadvantage using a shotgun. I also think that shotguns are possibly the most versatile firearms out there, more so for 12 gauge than 20 because of the wide range of ammo options.

Get what you will enjoy and use and don't look back. I would also say that you should try and shoot an AR15 before you buy. Sometimes the AR15 just doesn't do it for some people.

JAshley73
September 14, 2013, 11:07 AM
Most if not all of what jmr40 said is true, but for me in my situation, the biggest factor between choosing a shotgun vs an AR-15 has to do with training and practice. Mainly, cost of ammo, and lack of rifle friendly ranges nearby.

For HD use, I think a 20ga would be fine. Maybe one day I'll have a house big enough to need a rifle for inside shots, but for my humble abode, a shotgun should do it. :)

I currently have a couple semi-auto pistols as well. If I have to go grab the baby, the pistol is the way to go. But if we have time to make It back to the master bedroom, that's when I'd pick up the shotgun. So again, I won't be clearing-house with the shotgun, so I don't think a 26" barrel will be much problem holed-up in a defensive position...

JShirley
September 14, 2013, 02:54 PM
Okay, see, this is the major misunderstanding some people seem to have. Reason for using a carbine inside have nothing to do with wanting to extend range, but are about decisive effect, ease of use, and controlled penetration.

John

C0untZer0
September 14, 2013, 03:11 PM
I think when you factor in a rifle like the Tavor with it's bullpup design that thing makes for mighty good HD weapon.

I'm not advocating clearing a home, I'm just saying that if I have to go around a corner, I'd rather go around a corner with a Tavor.

I hope they make a 12ga shotgun based on the design... that would ROCK !

JAshley73
September 14, 2013, 05:00 PM
Okay, see, this is the major misunderstanding some people seem to have. Reason for using a carbine inside have nothing to do with wanting to extend range, but are about decisive effect, ease of use, and controlled penetration.

John

I agree, but I'm not worried about range. I'm worried that with an AR-15 I might not get much opportunity to practice - THAT is the biggest hang -up for me getting an AR-15.

JShirley
September 14, 2013, 05:35 PM
Then I must have missed the point of your "Maybe one day I'll have a house big enough to need a rifle for inside shots".

Sam Cade
September 14, 2013, 06:14 PM
I agree, but I'm not worried about range. I'm worried that with an AR-15 I might not get much opportunity to practice - THAT is the biggest hang -up for me getting an AR-15.

Rimfire upper or conversion bro!

PabloJ
September 14, 2013, 06:35 PM
Except for making noise at range and scaring people the .223 AR15 is basically worthless weapon.
I own one long gun and it's 6.8lb 3" 12ga pump shotgun (with thick Limbsaver pad:o). It can be used for HD, bird hunting, wildfowling, turkey hunting and larger game hunting with buckshot or slugs. My favorite HD load is 1&1/4 oz slug at Vo of 1020fps.

Warp
September 14, 2013, 06:51 PM
Except for making noise at range and scaring people the .223 AR15 is basically worthless weapon.

Please don't tell people this bullcrap.

We wouldn't want anybody to believe you or take you seriously by mistake/because they don't know any better.

Sam Cade
September 14, 2013, 07:03 PM
Please don't tell people this bullcrap.

I'm really hoping that it is just an example of Poe's Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

PabloJ
September 14, 2013, 07:08 PM
Please don't tell people this bullcrap.

We wouldn't want anybody to believe you or take you seriously by mistake/because they don't know any better.
Yes to a civilian those are basically worthless.

Sam Cade
September 14, 2013, 07:17 PM
Yes to a civilian those are basically worthless.
:rolleyes:
Shhhh... Don't tell all of the deer, coyotes,PDs, pigs and other assorted varmints that I have killed with ARs. I'd hate for them to spontaneously reanimate and come seeking vengeance.

JAshley73
September 14, 2013, 07:18 PM
Then I must have missed the point of your "Maybe one day I'll have a house big enough to need a rifle for inside shots".

I was making a little tounge-in-cheek joke. Sorry, I missed the emoticon. I've never been too good at humor...

Warp
September 14, 2013, 07:22 PM
Yes to a civilian those are basically worthless.

You are wrong.

Hope this helps.

amd6547
September 14, 2013, 07:23 PM
"...Except for making noise at range and scaring people the .223 AR15 is basically worthless weapon..."

What utter NONSENSE. I have read plenty of nonsense on the Internet, but I believe this takes the cake.

Sam Cade
September 14, 2013, 07:26 PM
What utter NONSENSE. I have read plenty of nonsense on the Internet, but I believe this takes the cake.

Not only does it take the cake, it leaves it out in the rain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WHx0B90FUc


:D

76shuvlinoff
September 14, 2013, 07:50 PM
I keep the loaded AR next to the loaded 870 next to the loaded .357 lever carbine. They are a few steps from the sidearms.

choices choices.

LeonCarr
September 14, 2013, 07:53 PM
I like the Shotgun for home defense. With that said, the AR is one of the most versatile firearm platforms available.

I seriously doubt PabloJ will stand downrange to see if the AR is just for useless noise and scaring people.

Hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions of people, starting with the Viet Cong and NVA to multiple groups in multiple present day hotspots and documented self defense use by law enforcement and civilians in the US and abroad, only made that mistake once.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

sappyg
September 14, 2013, 09:03 PM
Dude.... Sometimes I read your posts and just over look them for whatever reason. Sometimes I read your posts and ask myself 'why are you here'?

Says pabloJ

"Except for making noise at range and scaring people the .223 AR15 is basically worthless weapon."

jojo200517
September 14, 2013, 09:37 PM
Just some thoughts on it from me.

I started with a shotgun but i'd stick with 12 gauge. If your recoil shy and choosing the 20 over the 12 gauge you may want to go with the AR tho since it will be a ligher lower recoil platform. The S&W M&P is probably an ok AR but if your looking at spending close to $1k on a shotgun why not consider a Colt 6920 for the AR choice.

As far as ammo costs, ammo is expensive, good ammo is more expensive and practicing with what you intend to use and keep in the gun can become down right outragous. As far as the shotgun you wouldn't need to purchase any additional mags for it so that would be a bit cheaper there. For the AR platform you'll want more than just the mag that comes with the gun. If you do go with a 22lr kit for training with cheaper ammo there are several things to consider. The one I consider the most with any 22lr conversion for training is there is almost no recoil compared to the full caliber, to me managing recoil when firing when it counts will be very important. Most 223 barrels don't hold as good of accuracy with 22lr ammo so if markmanship is of concern you'd want a 22lr upper. Either way with a conversion bolt price range of 100-200 or so and a dedicated 22lr upper being in the 300-500 price range thats a good bit of 223 ammo you could buy for REAL practice. (for the price of a dedicated upper you should be able to pick up a case of ammo) Not to mention these will require additional different mags and 22lr isn't free nor nearly as cheap as it used to be.

Recruit
September 14, 2013, 10:18 PM
You don't need an AR15. Buy a shotgun. Buy a shotgun. :uhoh:

http://http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eatJYdLCGcI (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eatJYdLCGcI)

JAshley73
September 14, 2013, 10:39 PM
Jojo, I've pondered some of those same thoughts myself. IF, I were to decide on an AR-15, I could raise the budget some. Something like a Colt 6920 or a nicer Smith & Wesson of equivalence. I however haven't given too much though to them, and the Sport's lower price helps make the case for an AR-15 a little more. But then you fall prey to buying extra p-mags, a good optic, sling and so on... I would not treat this gun like an erector set, but generally a fighting rifle requires a few more add-ons, verses what is typically seen on a shotgun.

I've also given thought to the .22lr upper, or even the S&W M&P15-22 rifle for practice. I CAN use a .22lr rifle at my local range, but like you said, recoil management is important. And we come back to the training & practice problem again...

Fortunately, if I were to go for a shotgun, I probably would choose the M2 American, or the Franchi Affinity. I know the comfortech stock is supposed to help, but I don't know if it will help $500 much... I can pickup the M2 American or the Affinity for roughly $750 new, so that closes the price gap considerably between shotgun and AR-15. Either will take magazine extensions, and both hover near the 6lb mark. That pretty light and handy - maybe lighter than even a modest dressed AR perhaps?

Also, my wife's gun is a 20ga. Me stepping down to a 20ga would allow us to share more ammo, instead of keeping stock of 12 ga and 20ga. And of course, I wouldn't have to beat up my Beretta either.

Just so I'm being forthright, I would like to have an AR-15 rifle too. But given the practice problem, I could buy A LOT of shotgun ammo for the cost of an AR-15, and then go use it up (practice) at several nearby ranges. If money weren't a problem, then sure I'd buy one too, and just make it a range toy. But for right now at least, thats just not possible.

PabloJ
September 15, 2013, 05:13 AM
Jojo, I've pondered some of those same thoughts myself. IF, I were to decide on an AR-15, I could raise the budget some. Something like a Colt 6920 or a nicer Smith & Wesson of equivalence. I however haven't given too much though to them, and the Sport's lower price helps make the case for an AR-15 a little more. But then you fall prey to buying extra p-mags, a good optic, sling and so on... I would not treat this gun like an erector set, but generally a fighting rifle requires a few more add-ons, verses what is typically seen on a shotgun.

I've also given thought to the .22lr upper, or even the S&W M&P15-22 rifle for practice. I CAN use a .22lr rifle at my local range, but like you said, recoil management is important. And we come back to the training & practice problem again...

Fortunately, if I were to go for a shotgun, I probably would choose the M2 American, or the Franchi Affinity. I know the comfortech stock is supposed to help, but I don't know if it will help $500 much... I can pickup the M2 American or the Affinity for roughly $750 new, so that closes the price gap considerably between shotgun and AR-15. Either will take magazine extensions, and both hover near the 6lb mark. That pretty light and handy - maybe lighter than even a modest dressed AR perhaps?

Also, my wife's gun is a 20ga. Me stepping down to a 20ga would allow us to share more ammo, instead of keeping stock of 12 ga and 20ga. And of course, I wouldn't have to beat up my Beretta either.

Just so I'm being forthright, I would like to have an AR-15 rifle too. But given the practice problem, I could buy A LOT of shotgun ammo for the cost of an AR-15, and then go use it up (practice) at several nearby ranges. If money weren't a problem, then sure I'd buy one too, and just make it a range toy. But for right now at least, thats just not possible.
With shotgun you can participate in sports that have healthy social component to them like skeet or trap which can really be fun and productive activity unlike trying to make smallest whole clusters with an AR15.

tuj
September 15, 2013, 06:57 AM
consider another idea: if your quarters are small and the longest shot you would have to take is 12 yards, why not a pistol? I have two AR's that are at the ready but they don't sit in my bedroom; they are for if I need to go clearing the upstairs or the outside. I have two pistols at the ready in strategic places in my house. I like the pistols better for moving through doorways and I can fire them one-handed if necessary while I open doors or grab things. I also have a shotgun, but it serves purely sporting purposes although I could use it for defense.

As others said, whatever you are going to practice with is the most important. If you do choose a pistol, try IDPA. If you go with a shotgun, try sporting clays. If you choose the AR, try taking a tactical carbine class.

Warp
September 15, 2013, 08:13 AM
With shotgun you can participate in sports that have healthy social component to them like skeet or trap which can really be fun and productive activity unlike trying to make smallest whole clusters with an AR15.

Please, man, stop.

Just stop.









Please.















Stop.













Please.

Robert
September 15, 2013, 09:57 AM
Except for making noise at range and scaring people the .223 AR15 is basically worthless weapon.
I own one long gun and it's 6.8lb 3" 12ga pump shotgun (with thick Limbsaver pad). It can be used for HD, bird hunting, wildfowling, turkey hunting and larger game hunting with buckshot or slugs. My favorite HD load is 1&1/4 oz slug at Vo of 1020fps.
So being that you only own one firearm, that being a pump 12ga, what are you basing your opinion of the AR on? And if that is you favorite HD load I feel sorry for the people that live anywhere near you. Or at very least I hope your walls are concrete... If you just don't like ARs that is fine, to each their own. There are many popular firearms that I do not care for, but to say that one or the other is worthless based on an emotional reaction or feeling is just silly.

With shotgun you can participate in sports that have healthy social component to them like skeet or trap which can really be fun and productive activity unlike trying to make smallest whole clusters with an AR15.
You sir, could not be more wrong if you tried and I find your statement and insinuation to be more than a little insulting to the entire field of recreational and competitive AR shooters. I think an apology is in order.

I help run a monthly tactical rifle match here in the local area and I can say without hesitation that your statement is a slap in the face of all the outstanding individuals that attend the match every month. The insinuation that shooting an AR is somehow socially unhealthy is simply laughable, and rather sad. I have never in my life met a more helpful, friendly and generally amazing group of people than those that attend the match.

I have seen new shooters show up that have either brought too few mags, or too little ammo or maybe they have something break or go wrong. Every single time I have seen other shooters give me them mags, sometimes to keep, or ammo, or help troubleshoot and fix the issues. So to say that this is somehow an unhealthy social interaction is just dumb.

Now if this was posted to simply get a rise out of the other members, well that is trolling and we can have a chat about that in private.

fragout
September 15, 2013, 10:13 AM
Your choice of a shotgun is interesting. I have an older M121 that it seems was built especially for me, as it is a perfect fit. Since I picked it up in a trade well over a decade ago (used), it has had thousands of shells put thru it ......and of all different types, so in short..... I would trust it as a reliable "home defense' weapon if the need ever came up.

As far as putting it up against an AR, that really comes down to what you like the best, and can train with on a regular basis.

An AR that will never see the light of day after you purchase it will be of less use for you vs a shotgun that you have trained with, and you are comfortable shooting it.

I would disagree with the poster that stated AR's are useless,( IMO..... he made that statement for the purposes of trolling).... but with your situation, the shotgun might be the better firearm to go with simply because your local ranges allow it to be used. More quality time behind the trigger of a shotgun trumps any rifle that ends up locked in a safe forever. Especially one that might be utilized for self defense.

IE......... an AR is far from useless, but in your situation, the shotgun would allow you more time to become proficient with it.

Robert
September 15, 2013, 10:17 AM
Exactly, get the one you will be able to practice with the most. Either is a fine choice, but only if you practice and can use it like second nature.

76shuvlinoff
September 15, 2013, 10:30 AM
"...Except for making noise at range and scaring people the .223 AR15 is basically worthless weapon..."

Fudd statement.

PedalBiker
September 15, 2013, 10:36 AM
I won't even bother with the worthless post, it's been covered.

For both options, the shotgun or the AR you may want to consider getting an Airsoft of similar form to the actual firearm that you purchase. With an Airsoft you can do shoot/move training. There are even leagues where you can compete against others.

There was a guy from Japan who made the Olympics in one of the shooting events who had to train with airsoft exclusively since Japan is so restrictive on firearms.

Be aware many locations treat Airsoft like actual firearms. For example in Fort Collins I cannot shoot an Airsoft gun in my back yard.

PabloJ
September 15, 2013, 04:06 PM
I will try very hard not to make remarks offensive to others. Sorry.

JAshley73
September 15, 2013, 10:01 PM
Like I said earlier, pistols are definitely part of the plan.

And honestly I'd like to have an AR-15 patterned rifle or similar at one point, but that maybe down the road a ways. As we've talked about before, I'd happy to concede that a rifle is a better offensive weapon, and in many situations might be a better defensive weapon too.

Someone mentioned airsoft earlier, and I've actually given thought to that too. Having a replicate "practice" gun could be useful in working on skills at home. But without the proper training with the ACTUAL weapon, messing with an airsoft would be just play time. If I decided to purchase and train with a rifle, airsoft might be a viable way to get some practice in... Ditto that for pistols as well.

I do appreciate everyone's comments and feedback though. Before posting, my thoughts as I'm sure most of you could tell, we're biased towards a defensive/all rounder' shotgun, for now at least. I wasn't completely convinced however, so it's nice to get some supportive input from like-minded folks.

That being said, anyone see anything wrong with a 20ga for a defensive/all rounder' shotgun? My biggest two reasons for wanting a 20ga are the weight and feel of the smaller/slimmer gun, and sharing ammo with the wife. The M2 is supposed to weigh in at 6lbs, and even with a full mag-tube and extension, I can imagine it would come in under the 7lb mark.

I'm trying to think about taking a class in the future with this gun too. I'm sure after a day or two of carrying and shooting, that a light gun would help help fight fatigue. I know with a sporting gun, weight helps reduce recoil, but I'm hoping a good-fitting gun with a good recoil pad shooting 7/8oz loads wouldn't be too bad. Can anyone speak from experience here?

Al Thompson
September 16, 2013, 09:33 AM
That being said, anyone see anything wrong with a 20ga for a defensive/all rounder' shotgun?

Several years back, I was a member of a hunting club that had dog drives for deer. A shotgun with buckshot was the required firearm. Several of our members used 20 ga shotguns with #2 or #3 buckshot with success.

One of my "go to" shotguns is a Remington 1100 20 gauge, 22 inch barrel, extended magazine. Very neat little shotgun.

Can anyone speak from experience here?

Regardless of what you carry, you'll be tired at the end of the day. One of my friends wife did an Awerbuck class with a 12 ga and she's in her 60's, so it's not that bad. ;)

Fred Fuller
September 17, 2013, 08:43 AM
I'm trying to think about taking a class in the future with this gun too. I'm sure after a day or two of carrying and shooting, that a light gun would help help fight fatigue. I know with a sporting gun, weight helps reduce recoil, but I'm hoping a good-fitting gun with a good recoil pad shooting 7/8oz loads wouldn't be too bad. Can anyone speak from experience here?

A good solid sling, mounted so it doesn't interfere with the action of the shotgun, is the biggest thing in getting through a shotgun class comfortably in my experience. That and properly fitted boots :D.

PedalBiker
September 17, 2013, 11:11 PM
As far as recoil, the weight of the guns will determine whether 20ga is easier to shoot or not. For similar guns the 20 ga is lighter and some of the benefit of the smaller shell is given up. Even so, the 20 ga should still have less recoil overall, it just may not be that much. Over a lot of shots even a little adds up.

My brother in law only has a 20 ga and one of my friends in HS shot a deer every single year with 20 ga slugs.

justice06rr
September 18, 2013, 07:07 AM
Yes to a civilian those are basically worthless

*Double facepalm *

I don't know how many times you've seen on the news when a civilian defended their home with an AR15. Lets not forget hunting and competition purposes.

JAshley, it seems you are highly leaning towards the shotgun so why not go with that. If you can train with it more and afford the ammo/range time, that in your personal case it is the wiser choice. Although I would suggest to go with a 12ga instead of 20ga if you intend to use it for HD/SD also. 12ga practice ammo isn't that much more expensive at $6/box of 25rds (6Shot etc). But if you really want to stick with 20ga, that is fine.

Sure its great to have a nice milspec AR15 like the Colt6920. But I suggest getting the shotgun first, then save up later for the AR.

As a side comment, don't discount the M&P15 Sport. It is a great AR15 at the pricepoint. 1:9 barrel twist will serve you just fine, and it is still melonite-coated which nearly as good as chrome lining. If you are on a budget, I'd buy the Sport.

Brasso
September 23, 2013, 04:15 PM
If you can only practice with the shotgun, get the shotgun. The AR has certain advantages, and it is quite effective, but a blast of 12g 00 Buck from 10ft.....the AR can't even compete with the kind of damage that will dish out. Just be aware that it will also penetrate like a pistol.

Warp
September 23, 2013, 04:19 PM
If you can only practice with the shotgun, get the shotgun. The AR has certain advantages, and it is quite effective, but a blast of 12g 00 Buck from 10ft.....the AR can't even compete with the kind of damage that will dish out. Just be aware that it will also penetrate like a pistol.

Incorrect.

Sam Cade
September 23, 2013, 05:23 PM
The AR has certain advantages, and it is quite effective, but a blast of 12g 00 Buck from 10ft.....the AR can't even compete with the kind of damage that will dish out. Just be aware that it will also penetrate like a pistol.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/zh2fk6nh50.jpg

RyanM
September 23, 2013, 08:02 PM
Since I don't think anyone's suggested it in this thread, you should get one of these:

http://imageshack.us/a/img504/7510/sopmodm4masterkey01ag1.jpg

Brasso
September 23, 2013, 08:05 PM
Incorrect.

Incorrect. Round for round, at close range, a 5.56 couldn't compete with a dose of 00 buck in a wet dream. If you believe otherwise that's fine. I just want to be sure who to ignore.

And yes, 00 buck will penetrate like a pistol round. Exactly what your drawing suggests.

Jeez, some AR guys getting a little touchy. I haven't suggested the 5.56 is in the least bit ineffective. But you guys act like I'm insulting your mother for suggesting any other round dare to compare itself with the mighty .223. I carry an AR on duty and it makes a much better weapon than a shotgun for that purpose. But to suggest it's more powerful at close range than 00buck is just silly.

Teachu2
September 23, 2013, 08:26 PM
Mindset-Skillset-Toolset

Those are listed in order of importance. Mental preparation (mindset) is paramount. I am a former LEO, and had experience even prior to that in dealing with armed intruders. Home defense is, IMO, the easiest to get your mind around. Home invasions have become more common in my area in the last few years. Since I don't own a cash business or deal drugs, I'm an unlikely target, but when these happen, they happen fast - so unless you have a gun at hand, you are probably screwed. While I own both a S&W M&P 15 Sport and a Mossberg 500 configured as a fighting gun, I find them difficult to have at hand at all times. I am proficient with both. I've busted many clay birds, shot dove and ducks, and killed hundreds of ground squirrels - and found little value in these activities as far as preparing to confront a human attacker, other than developing familiarity with the weapon. When a person is coming at you, especially an armed one, they don't resemble a clay bird or any type of game in any way. Put the sights center mass and squeeze the trigger, repeat until they stop attacking.

My skillset is biased toward handguns. I practice more with handguns because I carry one everywhere I legally can. It's also easier to practice, as there is an indoor range two miles from my house. I can't carry at work, but I can carry until I get there and all the way home. When I step out of my truck, I'm armed. When I enter my house, I'm armed. If I stop off at the grocery store, I'm armed. When my grandkids are over, watching a movie or playing in the yard, I'm armed. When I'm puttering around working on my old Jeep, I'm armed. When the kid I've never seen before is trying to get me to buy a magazine subscription, I'm armed. When the car I don't know rolls up my driveway, I'm armed. And I'm armed with a weapon that I am intimately familiar with, have fired thousands of rounds through, and have complete confidence using.

While the debate over superiority of a shotgun vs a rifle vs a handgun vs a RPG vs a crossbow can go on forever (and will), none of these weapons are worth a thing if they are not available when and where you need them. There are those who will claim that the only use for a handgun is to fight their way to a rifle - a situation that is mostly fantasy for civilians, unless they are poor shots with a handgun. Being hit with a 9mm or larger hollowpoint will cause most attackers to pause to reconsider their plan. A GOOD hit will take all the debate out of it. At the ranges that I could justifiably use deadly force, any of my carry pistols will suffice.

For those that disagree, please find me an incident where a civilian used a 9mm or larger pistol to defend themselves and it was not enough gun. A real-life one, not a movie or video game.

Of course, if by some strange circumstances I was sitting on the couch with a shotty or AR with SD loads when the time came to use it, I'd use it. It's just much more likely that I'll be wearing a handgun.

Warp
September 23, 2013, 08:42 PM
Incorrect. Round for round, at close range, a 5.56 couldn't compete with a dose of 00 buck in a wet dream. If you believe otherwise that's fine. I just want to be sure who to ignore.

And yes, 00 buck will penetrate like a pistol round. Exactly what your drawing suggests.

Jeez, some AR guys getting a little touchy. I haven't suggested the 5.56 is in the least bit ineffective. But you guys act like I'm insulting your mother for suggesting any other round dare to compare itself with the mighty .223. I carry an AR on duty and it makes a much better weapon than a shotgun for that purpose. But to suggest it's more powerful at close range than 00buck is just silly.

Fortunately, for starters, the comparison doesn't have to be "round for round" because physics dictates that anybody with any kind of familiarity with the firearm(s) can make much more rapid, accurate hits with an AR type rifle in 5.56 than with a 12 gauge shotgun firing buckshot.

But hey, go ahead and ignore me, continue to believe that rifles can't compete with a shotgun. No skin off my back.

Brasso
September 23, 2013, 08:47 PM
Fortunately, for starters, the comparison doesn't have to be "round for round" because physics dictates that anybody with any kind of familiarity with the firearm(s) can make much more rapid, accurate hits with an AR type rifle in 5.56 than with a 12 gauge shotgun firing buckshot.

But hey, go ahead and ignore me, continue to believe that rifles can't compete with a shotgun. No skin off my back.

I said 00 buck was more destructive than a 5.56 round. You said incorrect. No one said anything about multiple rounds. Obviously an AR has the advantage of more rounds and faster shots. That's not the point. A blast of 00 will do significantly more damage than a 5.56.

And I never said a rifle couldn't compete with a shotgun. Let's just stick to the point and not get our panty's in a wad. I'm not trying to start a "my gun is better than your gun" argument. I simply stated a fact. 00 buck does more damage than a 5.56.

If you want to get into an argument about which platform is better then we can argue about that. Then we have to get into auto shotty's vs bolt action .223's. But this isn't about platform, but about ballistics.

Warp
September 23, 2013, 08:53 PM
I said 00 buck was more destructive than a 5.56 round.

This is what you said:

The AR has certain advantages, and it is quite effective, but a blast of 12g 00 Buck from 10ft.....the AR can't even compete with the kind of damage that will dish out.


But here is a recent, long, in depth discussion of a shotgun vs an AR for home defense

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=724338

A quote from that thread. Just one of many on this specific sub-topic

jmr and Fred pegged it.

If you can afford it, the AR is much easier to learn to use well, and is at least as effective with good ammo as a shotgun.

Mr. Dolall, opinions may vary, but an educated opinion is considerably more valuable than an uneducated one.

John

Brasso
September 23, 2013, 08:54 PM
Are you still trying to insinuate that a 5.56 round is the equal of 00 Buck?

Given the choice of taking one round of 5.56 COM at 10ft vs a round of 00 Buck you would choose the 5.56?

Let's just drop this.

The 5.56 is the KING of self defense. Nothing else can touch it. The AR is the best rifle ever made. Better?

Warp
September 23, 2013, 08:55 PM
Are you still trying to insinuate that a 5.56 round is the equal of 00 Buck?

Looks like you just missed my edit.

Please read this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=724338

And make note of posts such as this one: (bold emphasis mine)


jmr and Fred pegged it.

If you can afford it, the AR is much easier to learn to use well, and is at least as effective with good ammo as a shotgun.

Mr. Dolall, opinions may vary, but an educated opinion is considerably more valuable than an uneducated one.

John

Brasso
September 23, 2013, 09:05 PM
Dude, I carry an AR. I could carry a shotgun if I wanted to, but I don't. I'm not disparaging the AR. At all. The poor OP had a question about effectiveness. I simply meant to assure him that a shotgun is a fine defense weapon. You don't have to go out and spend $1500 on a new rifle just because all you have is piddly 12ga. 00 buck will rip a persons arm or head off with one shot at close range. It's a good weapon.

Warp
September 23, 2013, 09:06 PM
Dude, I carry an AR. I could carry a shotgun if I wanted to, but I don't. I'm not disparaging the AR. At all. The poor OP had a question about effectiveness. I simply meant to assure him that a shotgun is a fine defense weapon. You don't have to go out and spend $1500 on a new rifle just because all you have is piddly 12ga.

Next time say what you mean and mean what you say. ;)

PS: There's no need whatsoever to spend $1,500 to get a great AR/M4 style rifle. Try about half that as the minimum, with ~$1,100 getting the gold standard.

bikerdoc
September 23, 2013, 09:14 PM
10 days and 53 posts, some that have tested the limits of THR standards means this one is done.

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