Best hard cast bullet profiles for hunting in a semi-auto handgun


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Kuyong_Chuin
September 27, 2013, 12:27 AM
What would the best hard cast bullet profile be for hunting in a semi-auto handgun. I am looking at a couple of guns at the local shop that I like and was wondering what the best hard cast bullet profile for them would be? One is a Desert Eagle in 357 Mag and the other is a EAA Witness Hunter in 10mm. I'm leaning towards the Hunter since I can use my same die set that is for my 40.

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TooManyToys
September 27, 2013, 12:45 AM
Semi Wad Cutters have long been a top choice as a hunting bullet.
The Elmer Kieth, or "Kieth style" profile is probably the most popular style SWC for hunting.
These have been a traditional load in .357, .44 Mag & .45 Long Colt rounds for many decades now.
However, since these began as revolvers bullets, you would need to see if they will feed properly in your semi auto. Some will, some won't so well.

zxcvbob
September 27, 2013, 01:28 AM
Wide Flat Nose gets my vote. (especially the .358 Lee 158-RF bullet if your gun will feed it okay)

918v
September 27, 2013, 11:29 AM
It depends on the individual gun. You want the widest meplat possible that will feed reliably from the magazine. The wider the meplat the deeper the bullet must sit in the case the less case capacity the lower the velocity. Note the front of the magazine is round and the meplat is flat.

KansasSasquatch
September 27, 2013, 12:33 PM
If you haven't already done so, I would suggest doing some research on using cast boolits in a Desert Eagle. Seeing as it has a gas system it's very possible to gum it up pretty bad and from what I understand the gas port is TINY and A PAIN to try to clean out.

But the info I've found says that if you're going to attempt it, a hard alloy and a good hard lube are needed.

rcmodel
September 27, 2013, 01:08 PM
+1

From Desert Eagle owners manual:
Semi-jacketed bullets provide best functioning
and reliability. Do not use unjacketed lead
bullets. Full metal jacket bullets may be used
if they have a fully encapsulated base (no
open lead core base).

rc

Kuyong_Chuin
September 27, 2013, 02:02 PM
+1

From Desert Eagle owners manual:


rc
Thanks for that piece of information. I know I will go for the Hunter in 10MM now. Back to the cast bullet profiles. I see them in WFN GC LBT, RNSWC BB, TCFP, SWC, RNFP, & FP BB which type is best for semiauto pistols and hunting?

rcmodel
September 27, 2013, 02:10 PM
Most all .40/10mm lead bullets are going to be Truncated Cone flat-points or Round Nose flat-points in order to feed in a semi-auto.

IMO: Your best bullet for deer hunting would be a jacketed hollow-point like the Hornady XTP or Speer Gold-Dot.

rc

Kuyong_Chuin
September 27, 2013, 02:19 PM
Most all .40/10mm lead bullets are going to be Truncated Cone flat-points or Round Nose flat-points in order to feed in a semi-auto.

IMO: Your best bullet for deer hunting would be a jacketed hollow-point like the Hornady XTP or Speer Gold-Dot.

rc
Thanks RC. I have been looking for someone that has the XTP, Nosler, or the gold dot in stock but I have not found any. The reason for the cast bullets was I can get them and at $10 per 100 they make cheap practice rounds if I can't find some of the others before hunting season. Thanks again.

Kuyong_Chuin
September 27, 2013, 10:50 PM
Thanks RC. I have been looking for someone that has the XTP, Nosler, or the gold dot in stock but I have not found any. The reason for the cast bullets was I can get them and at $10 per 100 they make cheap practice rounds if I can't find some of the others before hunting season. Thanks again.
What would be better for the autos a WFN GC LBT, RNSWC BB, RNFP BB, or a FP BB type bullet?

suemarkp
September 27, 2013, 11:08 PM
I have an automag IV pistol in 45 Win Mag. I'm going to sell it because it is just too fussy to load for. About the only powder that works is H110. I used Blue Dot, and the timing went weird -- the safety would engage during recoil and the slide would come forward on safe WITH THE FIRING PIN STUCK FORWARD sticking 3/8" out from the breech face! I'm glad it didn't go full auto...

I'm a lefty, so maybe I was hitting the safety with my trigger finger or hand during recoil. Needless to say, unless you're using loads the gun was designed for (shape, weight, and velocity wise), you may be disappointed.

Kuyong_Chuin
September 28, 2013, 10:38 AM
I have an automag IV pistol in 45 Win Mag. I'm going to sell it because it is just too fussy to load for. About the only powder that works is H110. I used Blue Dot, and the timing went weird -- the safety would engage during recoil and the slide would come forward on safe WITH THE FIRING PIN STUCK FORWARD sticking 3/8" out from the breech face! I'm glad it didn't go full auto...

I'm a lefty, so maybe I was hitting the safety with my trigger finger or hand during recoil. Needless to say, unless you're using loads the gun was designed for (shape, weight, and velocity wise), you may be disappointed.
Sorry to hear that you are having problems with your firearm, but don't take this wrong but what does that have to do with cast bullet types I am confused.

suemarkp
September 28, 2013, 03:00 PM
This is how it is relevant: unless you're using loads the gun was designed for (shape, weight, and velocity wise), you may be disappointed.

Your question will be gun specific, so you may not find an answer unless someone here has played with cast bullets in that EAA Witness in 10mm. As others said, if it is gas operated, then don't use lead at all. Others will feed only certain nose shapes (and loaded overall length is another variable here). Semi wadcutters hanging up on the feed ramp is a common problem. Then, you need to pick a bullet weight that works and not all weights are available in all shapes. Then choose a suitable powder that has recoil characteristics that work with the guns mass and springs.

I gave up on all the hassles and changed from a 45 WM semi auto to a 454 Casull revolver.

Of the bullet types you listed, I think most semi autos would be happiest with the WFN, RNFP, or FP bullet types. These don't have the sharp edge that a SWC has. But nose length will be a factor.

Kuyong_Chuin
September 28, 2013, 04:58 PM
This is how it is relevant: unless you're using loads the gun was designed for (shape, weight, and velocity wise), you may be disappointed.

Your question will be gun specific, so you may not find an answer unless someone here has played with cast bullets in that EAA Witness in 10mm. As others said, if it is gas operated, then don't use lead at all. Others will feed only certain nose shapes (and loaded overall length is another variable here). Semi wadcutters hanging up on the feed ramp is a common problem. Then, you need to pick a bullet weight that works and not all weights are available in all shapes. Then choose a suitable powder that has recoil characteristics that work with the guns mass and springs.

I gave up on all the hassles and changed from a 45 WM semi auto to a 454 Casull revolver.

Of the bullet types you listed, I think most semi autos would be happiest with the WFN, RNFP, or FP bullet types. These don't have the sharp edge that a SWC has. But nose length will be a factor.
Oh okay, Thanks for the clarification. I guess I'll have to do some more research on the gun.

Buck13
September 30, 2013, 12:48 PM
I have a base-model Witness steel-frame 4.5" barrel, so I don't know if this is relevant or if the Hunter has a different feed ramp. I bought 100 lead 155 gr SWC and trial packs (about 20 each) of 140 and 200 gr lead TCFP. The SWC did not feed very reliably in my first batch of about 25 rounds. I have not yet gone back to play with the seating to see if I can fix that. The TCFP all fed 100%; not surprising since that is the most popular profile for the 10 mm.

I got the 140s and 200s from Badman Bullets. I don't think that alloy is what would be considered "hard" by most people. If loaded to max velocities, I'd bet they would mushroom some if you hit an animal, but that's just a guess. Some day I will shoot one into water jugs. The 140s I loaded VERY light for plinking with a light recoil spring. The 200s were a standard load in the middle of the load range (don't remember the charge offhand.) Light leading with all of these: not zero but not enough to require cleaning before you finish a box of ammo.

Most TCFP have a small meplat, but Beartooth Bullets sell one that has a different shape and is presumably more destructive. Maybe you could call them and ask if it works in a Hunter. They have a conflict of interest in answering that question, of course, but some companies do place honesty over sales. I don't know if they are one of them.

The DA/SA trigger on my gun was OK but not great when new. After a couple hundred rounds and a few hundred dry-fires, it is still a little stiff but seems better. I would hope the Hunter's SAO would be much better. People like the SAO in the Elite Match, which is much cheaper than the Hunter. I don't know if they are the same trigger mechanism.

I assume you've shaken hands with both of these guns? The Witness has a rather big grip. I like it, but I have fairly big hands. I find the reach to the slide release to be a little long if I don't have bare hands.

If you do not get enough info here, you might want to try a forum that has a higher percentage of Witness shooters:
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?board=27.0

Kuyong_Chuin
September 30, 2013, 02:31 PM
I have a base-model Witness steel-frame 4.5" barrel, so I don't know if this is relevant or if the Hunter has a different feed ramp. I bought 100 lead 155 gr SWC and trial packs (about 20 each) of 140 and 200 gr lead TCFP. The SWC did not feed very reliably in my first batch of about 25 rounds. I have not yet gone back to play with the seating to see if I can fix that. The TCFP all fed 100%; not surprising since that is the most popular profile for the 10 mm.

I got the 140s and 200s from Badman Bullets. I don't think that alloy is what would be considered "hard" by most people. If loaded to max velocities, I'd bet they would mushroom some if you hit an animal, but that's just a guess. Some day I will shoot one into water jugs. The 140s I loaded VERY light for plinking with a light recoil spring. The 200s were a standard load in the middle of the load range (don't remember the charge offhand.) Light leading with all of these: not zero but not enough to require cleaning before you finish a box of ammo.

Most TCFP have a small meplat, but Beartooth Bullets sell one that has a different shape and is presumably more destructive. Maybe you could call them and ask if it works in a Hunter. They have a conflict of interest in answering that question, of course, but some companies do place honesty over sales. I don't know if they are one of them.

The DA/SA trigger on my gun was OK but not great when new. After a couple hundred rounds and a few hundred dry-fires, it is still a little stiff but seems better. I would hope the Hunter's SAO would be much better. People like the SAO in the Elite Match, which is much cheaper than the Hunter. I don't know if they are the same trigger mechanism.

I assume you've shaken hands with both of these guns? The Witness has a rather big grip. I like it, but I have fairly big hands. I find the reach to the slide release to be a little long if I don't have bare hands.

If you do not get enough info here, you might want to try a forum that has a higher percentage of Witness shooters:
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?board=27.0
Thanks Buck, I too have large hands and I have held both guns at the store. I might be wrong but the only real differences I saw in the regular witness and the Hunter was the barrel length. The Hunter has a 6" barrel where the Witness Stock III has a 4.75" barrel. I wouldn't have a problem with finding a cast bullet that will feed in an auto if I could find the gun I have been looking for, a S&W Model 610 with a 6 1/2" barrel, that way I could shoot ether 10mm or 40s&w with the same gun.

Buck13
October 1, 2013, 02:14 AM
I'm no S&W collecting guru, but aren't the 610s pretty rare? You could probably get a nice used .357 or .44 mag revolver, dies, brass and bullets for the same price or less. Even cheaper if you're willing to settle for something a little less elegant than a Smith and Wesson. I hear Ruger makes decent guns, although a little on the heavy side. ;)

CountryUgly
October 1, 2013, 05:39 PM
I hunt with a 10mm and I'll save you the trouble. Hornady's 200gr XTP is what you need to reliably take game with a 10mm semi-auto. However for plinking and possibly hunting with lead in the 10 I'd highly recommend Falcon Bullet Company's 180gr TCFP. It's hard (17-18) but does expand decent enough.

Kuyong_Chuin
October 1, 2013, 07:08 PM
I'm no S&W collecting guru, but aren't the 610s pretty rare? You could probably get a nice used .357 or .44 mag revolver, dies, brass and bullets for the same price or less. Even cheaper if you're willing to settle for something a little less elegant than a Smith and Wesson. I hear Ruger makes decent guns, although a little on the heavy side. ;)
I have seen one that was already sold that was sold for $550. Only one I have seen as of late they wanted $1800 for it which is way out of my price range. The S&W 610 is the only 10MM/40 cal revolver that I know of which is why I was looking for one. The reason I was looking at the 10MM was the dies I have for my 40 works with the 10MM too.

Kuyong_Chuin
October 1, 2013, 07:09 PM
I hunt with a 10mm and I'll save you the trouble. Hornady's 200gr XTP is what you need to reliably take game with a 10mm semi-auto. However for plinking and possibly hunting with lead in the 10 I'd highly recommend Falcon Bullet Company's 180gr TCFP. It's hard (17-18) but does expand decent enough.
Thanks Country.

USSR
October 1, 2013, 07:19 PM
The reason I was looking at the 10MM was the dies I have for my 40 works with the 10MM too.

So, you're making a wrong choice on a handgun platform (semi-auto for hunting) and cartridge to save perhaps $60 for a set of dies?:eek: Incredible.

Don

Kuyong_Chuin
October 1, 2013, 07:42 PM
So, you're making a wrong choice on a handgun platform (semi-auto for hunting) and cartridge to save perhaps $60 for a set of dies?:eek: Incredible.

Don
I prefer autos over revolvers. Do I want to save money? Yes I am on a fixed income and do not have allot of money. Factory 10MM JHP rounds for hunting I can get for $0.40 a round a 44 Mag in the same type cost $0.60 a round. That adds up quick. If I had the money and space I would buy one of every caliber and every type firearm I could because I like shooting and collecting them.

P.S. Since I am ambidextrous any handgun or long gun I buy is normally ambidextrous which is why I prefer autos. They are easier to find in an ambidextrous form. The only time I don't by a gun that is ambidextrous is when I buy a bolt action rifle.

Buck13
October 2, 2013, 05:16 PM
So, you're making a wrong choice on a handgun platform (semi-auto for hunting) and cartridge to save perhaps $60 for a set of dies?:eek: Incredible.

Don
Huh? Google "glock 20 hog" Lots of people hunting with the 10 mm auto.

The 10 mm is ballistically at least equal to the .357 Magnum, which is widely considered to be adequate for all but a couple of species of North American game. The Witness Hunter has mounting holes on both sides of the frame for a solid saddle-type scope mount, if you don't want to be limited to iron sights, and the auto oughta be easier on the scope than a revolver in terms of recoil. Although I have no idea what the holster availability might be, on paper it's not much more ungainly than any other scoped handgun (which is to say: pretty bad). So, what's the problem?

I still think a used Redhawk would be more cost effective, but I was shooting mine yesterday, and I have to admit that a lighter and more balanced pistol (like, one in which the ammo and magazine is inside your hand, not ahead of it) would be easier for me to shoot well. Admittedly, I didn't shoot my Witness any better, but that's on my crummy technique, not so much the machine. And mine is the DA/SA 4.5" barrel. I'll bet you a dollar the Hunter is considerably easier to shoot accurately.

USSR
October 2, 2013, 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USSR
So, you're making a wrong choice on a handgun platform (semi-auto for hunting) and cartridge to save perhaps $60 for a set of dies? Incredible.

Don

Huh? Google "glock 20 hog" Lots of people hunting with the 10 mm auto.

The 10 mm is ballistically at least equal to the .357 Magnum, which is widely considered to be adequate for all but a couple of species of North American game.

If barely adequate is okay for you go ahead. I say that having shot several deer with a .357 Magnum and not simply Googling to see what others say.:rolleyes:

Don

Buck13
October 3, 2013, 11:35 AM
If barely adequate is okay for you go ahead. I say that having shot several deer with a .357 Magnum and not simply Googling to see what others say.

Well, I have only shot animals with rifles (or shotguns), so you have me there. But "the majority is always sane" (hat tip Larry Niven :) ).

A gut shot with a .44 is still not going to end well. If I was going handgun hunting, I would be WAY, WAY more worried about my crappy pistol marksmanship than the platform or whether a .357 or 10 mm is adequate. Particularly on pigs, with those relatively tiny lungs, but we don't have feral hogs in Washington (AFAIK), so that is not an issue.

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