Anyone else have problems with proof of residency?


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ChaoSS
September 29, 2013, 11:59 PM
Ok, so I'm sorry if this isn't the right spot for this, I figured this was the closest.

So anyway, where I live I have a PO box, the post office won't deliver to my house. So, on my driver's license, it used to just show my PO box. I bought one gun, with no problem. Next time, different gun store, I ended up having to get a print out from the DMV showing multiple addresses. So now, third gun store, I bought a new toy, driver's license shows the PO box, and I gave a vehicle registration showing my physical and mailing address. No problem. 4th gun store, same thing, no problem. Go back to third gun store for more toys, no problem, until I go to pick up the goodies. Suddenly they notice that my address that I wrote on the 4473 has one zip code, and the zip code shown on my license and on the registration is a different one. Problem is that the registration shows both addresses, but only one city and zip code. So now my toys are still in lockup at the store.

I'm going to the DMV tomorrow to try to get a print out showing everything. I'm not sure though, it might have just the same issue as the registration. They say they need something government issued, which for me means no utility bills. No phone bills. No cable bills. If the DMV doesn't give me something helpful, I may have to pay to change my address there. But, since I still need to have stuff coming in the mail, I would need to change it, and then change it back. And I'm not interested in doing that any time I want to buy something. Anyone else have this dilemma? Anyone else have a solution to this issue?

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Tamren
September 30, 2013, 03:26 AM
Would you even need the PO box listed on your driver's license to get things shipped to you? My personal experience with ordering things online, is that often there's a different sections for a shipping address and billing address.

At least in Iowa, if your address on the 4473 doesn't match your address on your ID, and your permit to acquire/CCW a guns shop won't transfer any controlled items.

My suggestion would be to just list your personal address on your DL, and when you have things shipped, give them the PO box as your shipping address.

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2013, 03:43 AM
Hunting or fishing license? (Even if you don't hunt or fish, fishing licenses are usually pretty cheap). Property tax statement?

ChaoSS
September 30, 2013, 04:40 AM
Tamren, i need to have things sent to me from the DMV. This includes registrations on my motorcycles and vehicles, notices for things like the expiration of the medical card on my commercial license, etc.

Navy LCDR, I'm in California, and a one day fishing license costs about 15 bucks. I'd rather avoid paying for that just to get a gun transferred into my name.

My property tax shows up as parcel and lot numbers, sent to my mailing address, with no mention of my physical address.

bigfatdave
September 30, 2013, 05:40 AM
Wow.
My DL address is not my current address, because I've moved since then.
And while I do have a little card from the DMV* in my wallet, the answer is simply "yeah, I moved" whenever it comes up. Which is about never. For guns or anything else.

Shop elsewhere, or don't act like you're questionable. I think this might be a symptom of being too used to asking permission for everything.

* (actually, Ohio calls it a BMV just to be contrary)

ChaoSS
September 30, 2013, 05:45 AM
I'm not acting like I'm questionable. This was caught when the guy took the paperwork to the back to have the owner (who hasn't met me) check everything over. I understand they are just cya. They aren't trying to be contrary, they are trying to make sure they don't have problems with the ATF of CA DOJ. I get that. I just hate having to deal with this.

bigfatdave
September 30, 2013, 06:22 AM
Do they copy your DL in the CA?

Address doesn't go to the BATFE, as far as I know.

ChaoSS
September 30, 2013, 06:52 AM
Well, CA takes just about everything, but I think that this is an issue of all the issue being right for the ATF. Not so sure on all the rules though. Just that everyone needs proof of residency, whether they pay sufficient attention to it or not.

NavyLCDR
September 30, 2013, 10:00 AM
Tamren, i need to have things sent to me from the DMV. This includes registrations on my motorcycles and vehicles, notices for things like the expiration of the medical card on my commercial license, etc.

Navy LCDR, I'm in California, and a one day fishing license costs about 15 bucks. I'd rather avoid paying for that just to get a gun transferred into my name.

My property tax shows up as parcel and lot numbers, sent to my mailing address, with no mention of my physical address.

Take the below linked Open Letter to FFLs with you and use the property tax statement.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2011/08/082911-atf-open-letter-to-all-ffls.html

If an attachment is necessary, the FFL should indicate in Section 30c ("For Use by FFL") that a physical address description is attached by writing “physical address attached” or “PA attached.” This attachment may include a “metes and bounds” description such as that appearing on a property deed, or it may consist of directions from the nearest U.S. Post Office or other well-known landmark.

md2lgyk
September 30, 2013, 12:00 PM
Would you even need the PO box listed on your driver's license to get things shipped to you? My personal experience with ordering things online, is that often there's a different sections for a shipping address and billing address.

My personal experience has been that, PO box or not, if the shipping address doesn't match the billing address on the credit card, the shipment will be delayed.

Now that the Real ID Act has been fully implemented here, I'm not sure it's even possible to have a PO box on your driver's license.

tepin
September 30, 2013, 03:33 PM
The instructions on form 4473 (http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf) outline ID requirements. See 20.a Identification and 20.b. Alternate documentation.
You should be able to show your passport and tax document and be good to go.

I live in MN and vacation in AZ. I anticipated an issue like this so I went and got an Arizona state ID card. They gave me the option of what address to have printed on the card - My MN PO BOX or my AZ home address. Obviously I chose the AZ address as that was the whole point of getting an AZ ID. Come to find out you cannot have a DL in more than one state. Don't know why.

Whatever state you are in you can likely get a state ID card and put your home address on it for gun purchases. My ID was $12.00 and never expires. Just makes things easier.

tepin
September 30, 2013, 03:37 PM
md2lgyk. Agree. The DL application in MN has 2 sections. Mailing address and physical address (which gets printed on the DL). When cops check ID they probably don't care where your mail goes, they want to know where you call home.

denton
September 30, 2013, 03:44 PM
It's an interesting problem.

From a practical standpoint, you are required to give a physical address.

However, unlike "domicile", which is a legally defined term, "residence" is undefined.

You can only have one domicile.

You can have multiple residences, and there is no requirement that you spend any particular amount of time at one of them to establish it as a residence. You can move freely between your residences.

I spent a few months on a consulting gig in Richmond, and lived in a hotel. I was there for an extended period, returning each week to do my work. So I'm pretty sure that I could have legally made a private purchase of a firearm either there, or in the state of my domicile, Utah.

bikemutt
September 30, 2013, 07:31 PM
Do they copy your DL in the CA?

Address doesn't go to the BATFE, as far as I know.
Address doesn't routinely go to BATFE, come audit time though, who knows?

Several LGS around here now take a copy of DL (or other official ID) and attach it to the file copy of the 4473, they just don't want to get into it with ATF if the dreaded audit notice is in the mailbox.

ChaoSS
September 30, 2013, 08:17 PM
It's an issue of come audit time. Not that they need it for anything they need to submit.


I didn't think of a passport. I don't have one, but I've been intending to get one. I don't know what that shows for an address, if anything, but it could be an option for the future.

For now, I went to the DMV, changed my address, got printout, changed it back, and that should be good enough for now. Just don't want to deal with this in the future. So maybe i'll see about the property tax thing, although that says that they need to request a variance, and I'm not sure how long that would take.

tommy.duncan
September 30, 2013, 09:34 PM
Drivers License, CCW, Voter Registration Card
These stay with me at all times. I have never had a problem.

NavyLCDR
October 1, 2013, 01:32 AM
So maybe i'll see about the property tax thing, although that says that they need to request a variance, and I'm not sure how long that would take.

No - the memo specifically states that a variance is NOT required:
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2011/08/082911-atf-open-letter-to-all-ffls.html

Further, ATF has determined that no variance is needed prior to making such transfers. However, to validate a prospective firearm purchaser's legal residence address, FFLs are encouraged to take the following steps:

1. Ask the purchaser if the address indicated on the identification document is the actual residence address, receive an affirmative response, and have no reason to believe the address on the identification document is not the actual, legal residence address of the purchaser;

2. Ask the purchaser to complete ATF Form 4473 with the actual physical location of his or her residence in Section 2, “Current Residence Address,” including county or similar political subdivision. If the space provided on the form in Section 2 is not sufficient, the purchaser should provide the information on a separate sheet of paper and attach it to the ATF Form 4473. If an attachment is necessary, the FFL should indicate in Section 30c ("For Use by FFL") that a physical address description is attached by writing “physical address attached” or “PA attached.” This attachment may include a “metes and bounds” description such as that appearing on a property deed, or it may consist of directions from the nearest U.S. Post Office or other well-known landmark.

shiftyer1
October 1, 2013, 02:14 AM
I live in Texas and have see a Texas ID or dl? I cant remember. Anyway it had a California address. I didn't even know that was an option.

I just assumed it was a pooly trained employee who issued it.

NavyLCDR
October 1, 2013, 04:01 AM
I live in Texas and have see a Texas ID or dl? I cant remember. Anyway it had a California address. I didn't even know that was an option.

I just assumed it was a pooly trained employee who issued it.

Both my Wyoming Driver's License and my Washington State ID Card have my Washington address on them. (active duty military, so by WA and WY state laws I can have both).

Zach S
October 1, 2013, 05:34 AM
Would you even need the PO box listed on your driver's license to get things shipped to you? My personal experience with ordering things online, is that often there's a different sections for a shipping address and billing address. My personal experience has been that, PO box or not, if the shipping address doesn't match the billing address on the credit card, the shipment will be delayed.
In my experience, a different address isn't really a big deal, unless they have different zip codes. And when they're in different states, it can be a major pain.

The credit card companies I deal with will let you list an extra/alternate address for the "we only ship to the billing address" companies. Or would, a few years ago when this was an issue for me.

While I have had a PO box listed on my license, I always had to have the physical address on it as well.

dogtown tom
October 1, 2013, 10:31 AM
bigfatdave
....Address doesn't go to the BATFE, as far as I know.
Nothing "goes to" the ATF unless there are multiple sales of handguns or certain rifles (border states)......."current residence address" is a requirement on the 4473. ATF will not get that 4473 until the dealer goes out of business.

bikemutt .....Several LGS around here now take a copy of DL (or other official ID) and attach it to the file copy of the 4473, they just don't want to get into it with ATF if the dreaded audit notice is in the mailbox.
1. It's the dreaded compliance inspection, not "audit". And ATF doesn't mail the dealer anything. Inspections aren't scheduled and dealers don't get "audit notices" in the mail.....where do ya'll get this stuff?:scrutiny:
2. Any dealer who copies the customers DL and attaches it to the 4473 is paranoid without reason. Do they also ask for a stool sample? A thumbprint? DNA? ATF doesn't care to see the drivers license of the buyer, only that the dealer recorded that information on the 4473. Your dealer can attach a dozen documents to the 4473 but that won't save him if he failed to complete Part B correctly.
3. Thousands of compliance inspections are held every year.....if attaching a copy of the drivers license was helpful in the least I'm sure the NSSF would recommend doing so...........they don't.

ChaoSS
October 1, 2013, 09:08 PM
NavyLCDR, the letter you posted references using a rural route address rather than a PO box. I think the one involving PO boxes says it requires a variance.

wep45
October 1, 2013, 09:17 PM
carry a picture of yourself standing in front of your residence....;)

ChaoSS
October 1, 2013, 09:30 PM
In fact I'm wondering whether California considers my PO box to be my legal residence. I guess that might be the case, since that is all that they will put on my license, but who knows. If not, none of that stuff applies anyway. Maybe I should write my own letter to the ATF and inquire of what is required.

Mman
October 1, 2013, 10:08 PM
How about a certified copy of a notarized affidavit of residence signed under penalty of perjury and filed with the town clerk? What dealer would refuse something with so many official certifications?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

dogtown tom
October 1, 2013, 11:20 PM
Mman How about a certified copy of a notarized affidavit of residence signed under penalty of perjury and filed with the town clerk? What dealer would refuse something with so many official certifications?
Nope, alternate documentation must be "government issued".......a simple letter from any government agency will work as long as its shows the buyers name and current residence address.

bikemutt
October 1, 2013, 11:28 PM
It's the dreaded compliance inspection, not "audit". And ATF doesn't mail the dealer anything. Inspections aren't scheduled and dealers don't get "audit notices" in the mail.....where do ya'll get this stuff?

Planet metaphor.

NavyLCDR
October 2, 2013, 09:13 AM
NavyLCDR, the letter you posted references using a rural route address rather than a PO box. I think the one involving PO boxes says it requires a variance.
You are correct. My mistake :-)

dogtown tom
October 2, 2013, 11:05 AM
bikemutt Quote:
It's the dreaded compliance inspection, not "audit". And ATF doesn't mail the dealer anything. Inspections aren't scheduled and dealers don't get "audit notices" in the mail.....where do ya'll get this stuff?

Planet metaphor.
Is that in the Myth Galaxy?:rolleyes:

buckstrucks
October 3, 2013, 05:53 AM
In fact I'm wondering whether California considers my PO box to be my legal residence. I guess that might be the case, since that is all that they will put on my license, but who knows. If not, none of that stuff applies anyway. Maybe I should write my own letter to the ATF and inquire of what is required.
Cali does not recognize a PO box. To take care of this problem I had the registration on my truck changed to show my PO box and my physical address. And a power bill and the like no longer counts either. It must be govt issued. If you really have an issue with this buy a fishing license where you can put what ever the hell you want on it for an address and you are good to go.

ChaoSS
October 3, 2013, 09:19 AM
Buckstrucks, does your registration show two different zip codes or are they the same for you? Because that's the problem right now, it's that my zip code on my registration only shows for the PO box, and my PA is a different zip code.

9w1911
October 3, 2013, 12:04 PM
in Nevada you have to have your mailing address listed on the license if I am not mistaken so that is why I have a po box on mine, I have a local private FFL do all of my transfers, he did not care about the po box thing I said here is my power bill with the physical address and he says its not needed. He also knows where I live is rural and had no mail service, now he is all I transfer from. Just a suggestion but its not a bad I deal if you find the same, a private FFL dealer, not a retail store and transfers will go so smooth. Now my FFL is like: oh where did you get this lower its really nice..haha

dogtown tom
October 3, 2013, 09:32 PM
9w1911 ....I have a local private FFL do all of my transfers, he did not care about the po box thing I said here is my power bill with the physical address and he says its not needed.....
Your dealer may not be a dealer for very much longer.

Both of you are in violation of Federal law. Your dealer for transferring a firearm to a buyer who did not properly complete a 4473 and did not submit his residence address as required. And you were not truthful on Question 2 as a P.O. Box is not your actual current residence address.:uhoh:

He (and you) need to read the instructions to Question 2 "Current Residence Address" on the 4473. The second sentence reads:
"Address cannot be a post office box."

Your power bill does not satisfy the requirement unless that utility is government owned. Any alternate documentation must be government issued and show your name and residence address.


99% of all firearm transaction questions can be answered by reading the instructions on the 4473 itself.........its a shame no one does.:banghead:

ChaoSS
October 4, 2013, 09:35 AM
I think I've found the answer to my dilemma. I've been wanting a C&R anyway. And I can't imagine that they would have a problem with the driver's license and federal FFL combo.


And Tom, the FFL may have problems over that issue, but the buyer shouldn't, as long as he puts his correct physical address on the 4473.

RussellC
October 4, 2013, 10:11 AM
I saw an area gun dealer fall into this trap. He had his store located at one end of the shopping strip. He was well known as one of the most reasonable priced guys around, usually giving better prices than the police discount, according to several officers I know. Well, he changed up his business and keeps no firearms on hand, just an office you make an appointment with and orders the gun. He relocated to the other end of the shopping center, now just an office.

A good friend of mine was buying a gun online, and was using him to do the transfer, as he is the cheapest around at 20 bucks. The place he bought it from balked as his FFL stated the address at the other end of the strip! Other shippers havent even noticed!

One problem with putting an address on your drivers license that isnt your mailing address, at least in Missouri is that the DMV sends all notices to whatever address is on your actual drivers lic. Always nice to know when they revoke your drivers lic because of a fail to appear or some such other silliness....

Russellc

dogtown tom
October 4, 2013, 01:38 PM
RussellC I saw an area gun dealer fall into this trap. He had his store located at one end of the shopping strip. He was well known as one of the most reasonable priced guys around, usually giving better prices than the police discount, according to several officers I know. Well, he changed up his business and keeps no firearms on hand, just an office you make an appointment with and orders the gun. He relocated to the other end of the shopping center, now just an office.

A good friend of mine was buying a gun online, and was using him to do the transfer, as he is the cheapest around at 20 bucks. The place he bought it from balked as his FFL stated the address at the other end of the strip! Other shippers havent even noticed!
That dealer changed addresses and didn't notify ATF?:scrutiny:
That's a pretty serious infraction.

I'm surprised any dealer anywhere shipped to him at all. ATF even has the FFL EZcheck where you can check the validity of the dealers FFL and see if it matches his FFL addresses.

ChaoSS
October 4, 2013, 09:28 PM
One problem with putting an address on your drivers license that isnt your mailing address, at least in Missouri is that the DMV sends all notices to whatever address is on your actual drivers lic. Always nice to know when they revoke your drivers lic because of a fail to appear or some such other silliness....

I got arrested once (not going into the story, but long story short the cop lied, and I had no proof of it, and if convicted it probably would have meant the end of me being able to own guns). Anyway, I showed up in court, and the DA didn't press charges. So, good for me, right? Well, a year and a half later I tried to get a job and failed the background check, come to find out I've got an outstanding warrant for FTA for a new court date on the old charges. They had sent the notice to appear through the mail to my house, where I don't get mail delivery.


So, I lost a job over it, but because of the time lapsed, I was able to get the whole thing thrown out, without having to worry about the risk of legal trouble. Good, bad, I dunno, a little of both I guess.

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