Will gov't shutdown prolong delays?


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JustinJ
September 30, 2013, 05:57 PM
Are those of us waiting patiently for tax stamps going to experience longer delays due to the impending shut down?

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LocoGringo
September 30, 2013, 06:43 PM
My heart says "I hope not", but my head says "probably".

Gtscotty
September 30, 2013, 07:25 PM
If the shutdown actually goes through, Definitely.

HexHead
September 30, 2013, 07:26 PM
Would you seriously consider the employees processing tax stamps as "essential"?

danez71
September 30, 2013, 08:16 PM
The NICS will be operational according to this.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9137937

Maybe theres hope for the stamps.

Akita1
September 30, 2013, 11:58 PM
What's another few weeks to a 9-12 month process? I've had 3 pending since May...

Bubbles
October 1, 2013, 08:48 AM
The holdup will be the background checks at the FBI and how many of those people are furloughed.

ETA: Just got word that NFA is running with two examiners and four contractors.

wally
October 1, 2013, 10:19 AM
Here you have a tax people are lining up to pay and literally overwhelming the resources allocated to collect it, and the Government does everything they can to inhibit the process while they argue over how to spend more money that they don't have!

zignal_zero
October 2, 2013, 07:32 AM
Bubbles -

I don't know where you got that info, but I just called the NFA branch of the BATFE and was told - YES they are all on "furlough" and NO forms are being processed, until this is over :(

I have a Form4 "pending" as well.

Legend
October 2, 2013, 12:20 PM
Who answered the phone???

Midwest
October 2, 2013, 01:43 PM
Bubbles -

I don't know where you got that info, but I just called the NFA branch of the BATFE and was told - YES they are all on "furlough" and NO forms are being processed, until this is over :(

I have a Form4 "pending" as well.
This is a long shot. I know it is impossible to sue the government. (They are being PAID $200 for for them to perform a service and now they are not performing that service. It might prove that the system is broken and needs to be done away with with the long waits for forms to be processed and stamps to be issued....) . But can this be used as one of the arguments to to go about getting the NFA laws rescinded or changed to 'more favorable' to our interests?

Bubbles
October 2, 2013, 02:22 PM
Bubbles -

I don't know where you got that info, but I just called the NFA branch of the BATFE and was told - YES they are all on "furlough" and NO forms are being processed, until this is over

I have a Form4 "pending" as well.
As of this morning one of them was still sending out processing-related emails. I won't say which one as they're probably not supposed to be working, but I do know they've got the capability to work from home, especially when the weather is bad around here (I live and work very close to Martinsburg).

Charger442
October 2, 2013, 02:25 PM
This is a long shot. I know it is impossible to sue the government. (They are being PAID $200 for for them to perform a service and now they are not performing that service. It might prove that the system is broken and needs to be done away with with the long waits for forms to be processed and stamps to be issued....) . But can this be used as one of the arguments to to go about getting the NFA laws rescinded or changed to 'more favorable' to our interests?
we arent paying for a service, we are paying a tax. the tax stamp is proof you paid the tax. there is no service involved. they are charging you a tax to exercise your constitutional rights, the least they could do is take your money in a timely manner.

Bubbles
October 2, 2013, 03:17 PM
we arent paying for a service, we are paying a tax. the tax stamp is proof you paid the tax. there is no service involved. they are charging you a tax to exercise your constitutional rights, the least they could do is take your money in a timely manner.
Oh the checks get cashed pretty quickly. It's getting the receipt for the tax that takes months...

BTW that money doesn't go directly to the ATF's coffers, it goes into the general fund for FedGov.

zignal_zero
October 3, 2013, 10:47 PM
Who answered the phone???

Linda and she made it clear NO Form4's or Form1's will be processed until after the "furlough" (her word)

Arizona_Mike
October 8, 2013, 02:10 PM
Yep, just spoke to Linda this morning. "No one is in the office".

Mike

Bubbles
October 8, 2013, 02:25 PM
COB Monday they all got sent home until there's a budget. Licensing also got gutted, no one is there. Tracing has 2 people per shift working, normally staffed at 20. Haven't heard about Tech or Legal but I expect they were also cut deeply.

Arizona_Mike
October 8, 2013, 03:51 PM
COB Monday they all got sent home until there's a budget.
OK, so there is still some hope. I got the correction 7 or 8 days after the date on the form. I will wait until the 18th or so.

Mike

Aaron Baker
October 8, 2013, 07:04 PM
So Bubbles: do you think someone is at least manning the fax machine?

I have a client who got an exception letter dated October 2, and he faxed in documentation in response. I'm just hoping the fax machine isn't overflowing onto the floor.

Aaron

Bubbles
October 9, 2013, 11:25 AM
By this point it may be out of paper.

crazy-mp
October 9, 2013, 10:12 PM
Its out of paper and ink, it does not flow onto the floor it is hooked up straight to a shredder. :uhoh:

jojo200517
October 10, 2013, 06:32 PM
This is a long shot. I know it is impossible to sue the government. (They are being PAID $200 for for them to perform a service and now they are not performing that service. It might prove that the system is broken and needs to be done away with with the long waits for forms to be processed and stamps to be issued....) . But can this be used as one of the arguments to to go about getting the NFA laws rescinded or changed to 'more favorable' to our interests?

Its a long shot how to sue them for sure especially for that as other said its not a service.

HOWEVER I do feel that by refusing to process any of these applications during this time period that has no definitive end in sight I do believe they are effectively violating everyone's second amendment rights by infringing your rights to keep and bear these arms by refusing to process the required paperwork and taxes for ownership.

Its out of paper and ink, it does not flow onto the floor it is hooked up straight to a shredder. :uhoh:

Nonsense, that is FAR to efficient for any branch of the US government. If anything they hired 30 people and give them a pair of scissors to cut the stuff up.

zignal_zero
October 10, 2013, 06:50 PM
Its a long shot how to sue them for sure especially for that as other said its not a service.

HOWEVER I do feel that by refusing to process any of these applications during this time period that has no definitive end in sight I do believe they are effectively violating everyone's second amendment rights by infringing your rights to keep and bear these arms by refusing to process the required paperwork and taxes for ownership.


Yep, I honestly think the prosecution would have an uphill battle trying to hang sum1 for building a title2 weapon (which is LEGAL) simply because they were not able to process your tax.

Even if I WAS willing to be the test case (not saying I am or ain't) but I wouldn't have that option because mine was a Form4 for a commercially produced can. However if I had already submitted a Form1 for a SBR, and my check was already cashed, I would be VERY tempted to just finish it and be sure to keep a copy of my completed.form, my M.O. receipt, and my trust handy.

I have a strong feeling they would fail at proving your guilt, but an easy time proving their inability.

DISCLAIMER - I am not a lawyer, do not blame me if you try this and go to prison, it is purely hypothetical. We all have to make our own decisions and we all have to accept the consequences of those decisions. Don't lay it on me, when you try it and find out I was wrong.

Aaron Baker
October 10, 2013, 08:02 PM
Guys... it's taking 6+ months for an approval on a Form when the government ISN'T shut down. Suggesting that you could somehow avoid a successful prosecution for building an unregistered Title II firearm during the first couple of weeks that the government was shut down is, well, silly.

To demonstrate a desire to comply with the law, you'd have to at least submit the paperwork... and lo and behold, nothing is stopping you from submitting it right now, even during the shutdown.

The better argument would arise if you had submitted a Form 1 6 months before the shutdown began, and the shutdown lasted another three months... then you'd have an argument that BUT FOR the shutdown, you would already have the stamp in hand.

Ultimately, I don't think the shutdown will give rise to any valid legal arguments. You can act like "shall not be infringed" is absolute language all you want, but "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech" is pretty absolute-sounding as well, but we all accept that there are reasonable exceptions, such as the classic "shouting fire in a crowded theater." I think "government shutdown of all non-essential services causes a couple weeks delay in Form 1 processing" is going to fall into the category of acceptable infringements.

My opinion? Don't test it. Be patient and let's hope this shutdown is over soon, because there are much more serious issues than the slowdown of our Form 1 and Form 4 approvals.

Aaron

zignal_zero
October 14, 2013, 12:55 AM
Aaron Baker -

This was the other (albeit unmentioned) part of my theory. One would have to wait LONGER than the originally estimated time frame before doing so.

I still believe, though, that if they had cashed your check, labeled you pending, then all went home, AND you already had title2 stuff on your schedule A, AND you waited a solid year (not that it will take that long) the prosecution would have a difficult time proving criminal intent on your part. On fact, your lawyer could easily demonstrate you paid the tax, filled out the forms, waited more than a fair time. Honestly, I wouldn't be scared of it personally.

JustinJ
October 14, 2013, 10:56 AM
You can act like "shall not be infringed" is absolute language all you want, but "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech" is pretty absolute-sounding as well, but we all accept that there are reasonable exceptions, such as the classic "shouting fire in a crowded theater."

Not to derail my thread but the "shouting fire in a theater" limitation on the first amendment doesn't hold water. Speech, as referenced in the first amendment, is the exchange of ideas and information. Yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater is akin to ringing a bell and not meant to convey information in the broader sense.

However, I do agree with the general premise of your statement as I don't believe chemical weapons ownership should be protected by the 2nd amendment.

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