Warning rant how do we change opinion when it's wrong


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horsemen61
October 3, 2013, 11:45 AM
:fire: :fire: :fire: Ok guys I was in class today gotta love higher learning :barf: anyways we are in class and we were asked to write a short paper on the subject of our rights mainly the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. So. I asked on my thoughts and I calmly explained that I feel my rights are being stepped on because their are some especially in our government feel that me owing a semi auto aka AR 15 and 30 round mags are not our right to own. Then another student from as he said "South side of Chicago" we are in Mo so nowhere near there. His reply was "I feel that we have the ability to acquire guns to easy" "All of these drug dealers have AUTOMATIC WEAPONS" which I responded to by saying do you realize that the machine gun registry has been closed since 1986 and that machine guns are very very very expensive and not every drug dealer has a FULL AUTO WEAPONS also if Chicago is such a dangerous place with all these gun laws how come they don't work. He started trying to tell me that they can sell crack for two weeks and buy what ever they want. The teacher tried to steer us back on course but it was clear to see that the class wasn't going that direction so I ask you did I do the right thing/how would you handle this and how do we fight this lack of knowledge. Thanks for reading.

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Old Fuff
October 3, 2013, 12:01 PM
Given the circumstances you did very well. I doubt that very few in the class really understand the difference between semi and full automatic. The Chicago news media often refer to AR and AK style rifles as being "machine guns," and do so on purpose. I don't want you to rile up the teacher, but continue if you can.

Incidentally, it is true that most if not all of the drug-pushing gangs are not short of money - but that's the reason Chicago's gun control laws never worked. Banning semi-automatic firearms would have no affect on the sale of illegal guns in an underground black market.

Sam1911
October 3, 2013, 12:25 PM
A drug dealer in Chicago does indeed have a "too easy" time time acquiring a firearm. MUCH easier than you or me. And certainly some do indeed have full-automatic firearms. Why in the world would they not? Their very livelihood is a felony. Buying a firearm illegally, stealing one, or modifying a firearm to become an illegal weapon is kids' stuff compared to the crimes they commit every day.

So the question for your classmate is why does he thing "WE" have too easy a time getting firearms? "WE" aren't criminals. The criminals have an easier time than WE do. Why should that be?

lewk416
October 3, 2013, 01:55 PM
Well, our local 'drug dealers' (here in Canada) have the same firearms as your 'drug dealers' and we have much stricter gun control rules here.
Honest gun owners obey the rules. Bad guys don't. It's that simple. Deal with the bad guys who have illegal firearms (mandatory jail time; deportation etc).

It ain't rocket science!!

cheers,

45_auto
October 3, 2013, 03:12 PM
I responded to by saying do you realize that the machine gun registry has been closed since 1986 and that machine guns are very very very expensive

Actually, you should have noted that LEGAL machine guns are very very very expensive. But criminals (by definition) don't obey the law. Pretty much any AR15 is only a couple of hundred dollars and one hole drilled in the receiver away from being an ILLEGAL machine gun equivalent of an M16. It'll also get you 10 years in the pokey just for having the parts and an AR15 in your possession, but I wouldn't imagine that an additional 10 years would worry a meth dealer willing to murder someone.

http://www.ftfindustries.com/product/AR-M16BCFC.html

If you are happy with full-auto only (no semi), then an illegal lightning link (also worth 10 years) is about $5 if you don't have the material handy already.

Ranger Roberts
October 3, 2013, 03:54 PM
Actually, you should have noted that LEGAL machine guns are very very very expensive. But criminals (by definition) don't obey the law. Pretty much any AR15 is only a couple of hundred dollars and one hole drilled in the receiver away from being an ILLEGAL machine gun.

http://www.ftfindustries.com/product/AR-M16BCFC.html

Sorry for jumping off topic a little bit, but wouldn't you have to show your tax stamp/paperwork to order from the above company?

Carl N. Brown
October 3, 2013, 04:12 PM
Theft, extortion or bribery from military or police armories are a major source of illegal weapons, whether conventional or full-auto, in the US and especially in Mexico.

And yes, under strict gun control it is easier for the criminal to get a black market gun (fence, drug dealer, smuggler, thief, burglar, etc.) than it is for a law abiding citizen to comply with restrictive gun laws, like the NYC implementation of the Sullivan Act. 20,000+ legal handgun permits in NYC, but NYPD and ATF project one or two million illegal handguns on the streets.

Back when Tennessee had application for permission to purchase a handgun with CLEO sign-off, 15 day waiting period, discretionary carry permit, and the legislature was debating a handgun ban, there was a lot of support among otherwise lawabiding citizens for the black market and it was easier to get a handgun "on the street" than under current, more relaxed regulations. Support among the otherwise lawabiding helped the black market. I observed the same effect when we had local option alcohol prohibition "dry laws".

Telekinesis
October 3, 2013, 04:42 PM
Actually, you should have noted that LEGAL machine guns are very very very expensive. But criminals (by definition) don't obey the law. Pretty much any AR15 is only a couple of hundred dollars and one hole drilled in the receiver away from being an ILLEGAL machine gun.

http://www.ftfindustries.com/product/AR-M16BCFC.html
Sorry for jumping off topic a little bit, but wouldn't you have to show your tax stamp/paperwork in order for the above company to send you those replacement parts?

Not necessarily. I can't speak to that company specifically, but some companies require you to show a stamp to order the more FA specific M16 parts, and some do not. It is not illegal to possess a M16 parts kit in and of itself, it is only illegal to have the receiver that will accept an auto sear. (With some caveats according to ATF interpretation).

And to be fair, for an AR it's a pin hole AND a little bit of milling to be able to fit that auto sear in there. Unless of course you want to make a slightly thinner sear to fit the space in the receiver.

OP: I'll also second what others have said in that you should have made the point about the machine guns being illegal (if they had machine guns at all), not that legal MGs are expensive. It wouldn't be too hard for them to get good MGs either, they do have access to a very extensive, multi national smuggling network.

Double Naught Spy
October 3, 2013, 05:00 PM
His reply was "I feel that we have the ability to acquire guns to easy" "All of these drug dealers have AUTOMATIC WEAPONS" which I responded to by saying do you realize that the machine gun registry has been closed since 1986 and that machine guns are very very very expensive and not every drug dealer has a FULL AUTO WEAPONS also if Chicago is such a dangerous place with all these gun laws how come they don't work.

Geez, a lot of the drug dealers do have automatic weapons. Most of mine are automatics. I CCW an automatic. In fact, Texas lets you qualify with one.

My automatic pistol of choice is is a 1911 that first the .45 ACP (AUTOMATIC Colt Pistol) cartridge.

"Automatic" in and of itself is not an inaccurate description for semi-auto guns. Semi-auto guns are automatic loading, but semi-automatic firing guns. As Old Fluff indicated, calling such a machine gun would be wrong as would be to call it "fully automatic." However, 'automatic' by itself is not technically wrong for semi-auto guns.

alsaqr
October 3, 2013, 06:01 PM
As a general rule you can't change the opinions of dedicated adult anti-gunners. i went to college at age 45. Had numerous classroom discussions with one anti-gun college professor of government who held no grudge. Most students did not agree with me.

It's like wrestling with a dirty hog: You get covered with mud, dirt and hog dung while the hog loves it.

45_auto
October 3, 2013, 06:29 PM
Sorry for jumping off topic a little bit, but wouldn't you have to show your tax stamp/paperwork to order from the above company?

As noted by Telekinesis above, it's not illegal to own M16 parts or an M16 parts kit as long as you don't own a complete AR15 or even an AR15 receiver, and no special permits or licenses are required.

I haven't ordered any M16 parts kits in the last year or so, but I know that Model 1 Sales didn't make any distinction last summer.

http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=431

Baba Louie
October 3, 2013, 07:56 PM
...how do we fight this lack of knowledge.? Lack of knowledge? Apply quality education coupled with life experience, which takes time.

Some battles are worth fighting. This one, I feel, is worth a skirmish to test the depth of the opposition, maybe a battle of wits if your side has a good reserve, calm attitude/demeanor, the ability to suffer fools gladly and wisely and to know when to shut up and smile.

A little history of the RKBA from 1775 on, to assist in the seeking out of Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness, then show how gov'ts large and small might act to suppress same "for the children's security" might be in order.

As to southside Chicago, et al, not much anyone can say except criminals follow their own rules and political winds there are strong and pervasive leaning leftward (I'd actually say leaning more towards a totalitarian established cradle to grave form of gov't, which I now wonder if same has affected D.C, but that's not the topic here nor allowed in our TOS).

I'd say ya done good.

I'd also opine you need to work on your spelling, punctuation and grammar skills a tad :D but that's why you're in an institution of higher learning, is it not? While I do slip into and use the vulgar phrasing now and then, not to mention I write like I talk (or is it "As" I talk? dunno & don't care), I can and do try to write and communicate correctly as need be, so I'm just busting your balls a tad bit here (with a smile on my face and hopefully yours as well ;)).

barnbwt
October 3, 2013, 09:59 PM
I know that Model 1 Sales didn't make any distinction last summer.


There's also a guy on Gunbroker who'll sell you an intact, unmodified PPSH receiver ;). You really gotta cover your own butt when it comes to NFA issues, and do your homework. Often times, sellers are just as ignorant as their customers, and "I didn't know" is not a valid excuse for constructive possession (which, admittedly, isn't usually an issue for folks unless there are other reasons to be investigating them). ARs are odd-ducks for the ATF since their modularity and ease of assembly makes it difficult for them to pin down/regulate what parts exactly make the guns "readily convertible." My impression is that the lower is the "firearm," the DIAS the "machine gun," and both are registered to each other with the ATF. Because the lower must be specially machined to accept the autosear, and the sear is so easily installed/removed/manufactured, possession of the modified lower alone is considered intent and charges will be brought ("constructive possession" is not a crime, it means a strong enough circumstantial case can be made to file charges). It's easy to argue in court that the only reason the special hole was drilled was to mount a DIAS, which was hidden or destroyed before agents executed their warrant.

As they say over at Weapons Guild -- Don't poke the bear; it ain't worth your O-ring ;)

...how do we fight this lack of knowledge.
The "lack of knowledge" isn't the problem. It is the intentional obfuscation and misdirection of those antagonistic to our cause that has resulted in the scenario we have today. When is the last time you heard anyone confuse abortion with miscarriage, anywhere. And yet we have AR15 shotguns.

The fact is, CNN doesn't give a damn about what a fact is, when guns are involved, otherwise they'd hire subject matter experts like they do for every other topic. This is a propaganda battle, and unfortunately, those are loud, annoying, protracted, and win no territory compared to the other fronts going on in the war. But it is an essential tool to keep the troops aligned and focused (for both sides). Now that they are seeking guys like Colion Noir to spread the word, the NRA is finally propagandizing to the right people (in the cities) to have an impact in the fight.

TCB

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