Heavy 9mm with W231?


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Rushthezeppelin
October 3, 2013, 07:11 PM
I'm thinking about messing around with some 147gr plated bullets (xtreme) to see if I get better accuracy than 124gr plateds and all I have for pistol powder is W231. I hear this isn't ideal necessarily as its a bit on the fast burning side of what you want for heavy for caliber bullets.

First I guess, does anybody have any experience with this combo (I have a full size polymer CZ75 clone). Second what exactly are the effects of an unideal powder? Are they going to be louder subsonic loads than more ideal powders as I also want to twist these up for silencer demos that are often held in my area.

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ArchAngelCD
October 3, 2013, 07:17 PM
Unfortunately I have not seen load data for W231 and 147gr bullets in the 9mm anywhere. Hodgdon doesn't list any data and it's not even in the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook. They do list WSF which might not be hard to find since it's a shotgun powder. Sorry, I know it's not much help...

Kurastduuks
October 3, 2013, 07:23 PM
I would go with longshot if I were you...I've had excellent luck with 147's and that powder

rcmodel
October 3, 2013, 07:31 PM
what exactly are the effects of an unideal powder?Think of the 9mm 147 grain bullet as a bowling ball.
Which it is compared to normal weight 9mm 115 & 124 grain.

Think of trying to move a bowling ball with your hand.

You could double up your fist and hit it as hard as you can. (Fast burn rate powder like W231)

Or you can push it with your open palm. (Medium burn rate powder)

Which one do you think will move the bowling ball faster & further without breaking all the bones in your fist??
Or beating your gun to death.

rc

ArchAngelCD
October 3, 2013, 08:18 PM
Like said above, a slower powder should be used. Longshot, HS-6 Autocomp, Power Pistol and the like will serve you well.

gamestalker
October 3, 2013, 08:23 PM
I load all my 9mm with Longshot and absolutely love it. Longshot and 147's, or any other weight bullet for that matter, will knock your socks off! But this is coming from a reloader who loads and shoots nothing but full tilt jacketed. Definitely not for the light hearted hand gunner.

Also a great powder for 38 spcl and .40 S&W, produces the same full house performance with those.

GS

mstreddy
October 3, 2013, 08:26 PM
I'll check my manuals later so I can quote which one it came from, but I have been loading 147 Gr plated with 3.5 grs of Win 231. Nice shooting, nicely suppressed and has functioned flawlessly in Beretta M9, Glock 17, M1991A1, and an Uzi F/A. All of these were fired both with and without can. I also ran them in a Glock 26 and 19 with no issues.
It might not be the best, but it's been good for me.
As usual YMMV, Void where Prohibited and all that stuff.

DoubleSawbuck
October 3, 2013, 08:28 PM
here's some load data from one of those "one book/ one caliber" load books 2000 edition, use at your own risk:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj257/mmm88ta/Misc/Loadbooks9mmLuger.jpg

I tried W231 w/ cast 147gr before and they were soft shooters but you really don't have much of a window to work with.

oldpapps
October 3, 2013, 08:30 PM
My response to question one - No. Question two / first part - as the name implies, not the best or close to it some cases.

Question number two / second half - Don't think so. I use 231 for my wimp loading for .44 Mag. It works very well pushing 240 grain lead to 640/50 FPS. A wile back I was playing and loaded some rather heavy loadings of 231, these actually came very close to matching the velocities of my stiff loads with 2400 powder before I suffered more difficult extraction and backed off.

The point is I was firing 6 stiff 2400 loads over my chronograph, followed with the heavy loads of 231, switching back and forth. My daughter complained about how loud 'those were', meaning the loads with 231. (I shoot some 30 feet down my driveway.) So, understanding you would not be pushing the envelope, the faster powder will still be loud.

Over the years most every powder that was thought to be possibly usable has been tried. If 'it' worked well, that powder would have made it into the loading books. If 'it' didn't work out for what ever reason, 'it' would not. Humm, 147 grains bullets with 231 not listed for the 9MM, I wonder why?

suemarkp
October 3, 2013, 10:09 PM
Here's some data for Win 231. Also note that HP38 is the same powder, so if you can finds loads with it, it is the same.

147gr Lyman cast roundnose, 4.0gr W231, 990 fps
147gr Speer TMJ, 4.1gr W231, 957 fps (CCI 500 primer), 1.115 OAL, 27500 CUP (starting load was 3.5gr)

DBR
October 3, 2013, 10:11 PM
Ramshot Silhouette (Winchester Action Pistol) is an excellent powder for high pressure pistol loads. It was developed for Ammo like 38 Super and 9MM making 180 Power Factor at pressures in the 40,000-45,000psi range. It is IME very forgiving at high pressure. It behaves very well.

Added: It meters like ball bearings and gives very consistent charges-another thing to consider with max loads.

mstreddy
October 3, 2013, 10:38 PM
OK, I have my manuals in front of me:
Lee 2nd Ed. page 536
147 gr lead Win 231 3.3 grs (865 fps) to 3.5 (905fps) @ 1.135"

Lyman 49th Ed page 341
147gr TMJ Win 231 3.5 grs (855 fps) to 4.1 (957fps) @ 1.115"

Winchester 2003 Reload data manual
147 gr lead CFP 3.3 grs (865fps) to 3.5 grs (905fps)
*this is probably what Lee copied for their book.

My own loads mentioned above followed the Lyman recipe as I had some 147 TMJ pull-downs from Jake @ RMR. I've loaded nearly 900 rnds with that recipe and have fired around 500 of them.

And yes, Hogdon, et al doesn't currently list that load, but what I got from a conversation with one of their techs is that when they merged the companies (buyout) they were only under contract to test a certain number of loads/powder/bullet combos for each caliber. So, some powders, bullets, weights, etc got left out and are not listed in their current load data.

As always, work up, check signs of pressure, etc... But you should be fine loading 147s with Win 231.
If you are interested I can upload the 2003 Win manual as I have it in PDF version.

Jim Watson
October 3, 2013, 10:58 PM
My load for a plated 147 gr 9mm P
147 gr Berry's plated RN.
1.145" OAL.
3.8 gr HP38
898 fps in SA 1911-A1 5"
921 fps in Colt 1991A1 5"

Real reloads in real production model guns.
I load Xtreme plated the same but have not yet chronographed them.

I have to make power factor 125 plus a margin to allow for different guns. My SA is slower than my Colt, the Sig-Sauer (not chronographed with this load) is slower still.

TfflHndn
October 3, 2013, 11:46 PM
mstreddy: Where do you see page numbers in Lee 2d Edition? My book has none, unless I've gone blind or crazy!? In the text sections, yeah, but in the tables I don't see 'em....

Rushthezeppelin
October 4, 2013, 12:57 AM
Ya I have Lee 2nd edition and the page you mentioned was the end of 38 special O.o

Also mine just plain doesn't list 231 past 125gr lead.

So those of you who use this combo aren't having any problems with wear to the gun? My clone has a pretty stiff slide spring, does that make a difference in wear?

Nick93
October 4, 2013, 01:29 PM
I load the 150gr Lyman cast bullet (#356637) with 3.7gr of W231 at a OAL of 1,13", mixed headstamp and Wolf primers. No signs of pressure and really accurate, gives me 915 FPS from a CZ shadow and 890 FPS from a Tanfoglio Stock II so you get a Power Factor of 136 ;)

Hope this helps

mstreddy
October 4, 2013, 11:08 PM
My Lee book is "Modern Handloading - Second Edition" by Richard Lee, copyright 2003, with a 2004 print date.

It does have page numbers throughout the data section on the bottom outside margins of each page. I'll scan the relevant pages and upload them tomorrow.
I have not chronographed my loads, but I have fired them as mentioned.

This is what the cover of my version of the book looks like:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BFW2JX03L.jpg

And here is the Winchester 2003 manual
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9IOIw01PwjIUmVBZ1ZpcHNuclE/edit?usp=sharing

Rushthezeppelin
October 5, 2013, 01:46 AM
Ahhh mines just like yours except a faux sticker (printed on the cover) that says
ALL NEW
DATA
IN AN
EASY TO READ
FORMAT

mstreddy
October 5, 2013, 08:28 AM
Rush, that version with the faux sticker is what I saw on Amazon. I guess mine is a little older. When I get home this evening I will scan/upload the relevant pages. But, you can rely on the Win manual I linked above as I'm pretty certain it came from there (exact same numbers).

mstreddy
October 5, 2013, 07:10 PM
OK, here are the 2 pages from the Lee book that I have. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9IOIw01PwjIV29ia0RSUGJmVWM/edit?usp=sharing

Rushthezeppelin
October 5, 2013, 07:27 PM
Thanks mstreddy. I think I'm going to pickup the SNS coated 147 FN when I get payed friday and I know have a load to work up. Really hoping I see accuracy difference cuz getting to throw a whole grain less per round will add up especially considering I have 2 lbs of 231 onhand. That and the SNS are cheaper than the 124 Berrys I'm slinging downrange right now.

mstreddy
October 5, 2013, 08:10 PM
That sounds good. Let us know how they work out for you.
I currently load the 147s as above, and have been working some 124s as well. I set the 147s aside for when I want to play with the suppressor.
I don't shoot competitively, so I'm not worried about the power factor and all that.

Rushthezeppelin
October 6, 2013, 12:58 AM
I am worried about pf but as long as im 865fps+ im fine, so ill probably throw a 3.4 gr charge (plus iirc that's as low as my smallest auto disk cavity throws with 231).

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III

TfflHndn
October 6, 2013, 01:16 AM
My Lee book has the same cover, but says it is "revised and reformatted 2011." Guess they dropped part of the page numbering.

mstreddy
October 6, 2013, 10:41 AM
"revised and reformatted 2011." Guess they dropped part of the page numbering.

I guess those pesky page numbers were too difficult to print.

Who knows why?

Rush, let us know how it goes. And have fun!

HexHead
October 6, 2013, 11:42 AM
I contacted Hodgdon about using 231 with 147gr FMJ, and was told it was unsuitable for 147 gr bullets, suggesting I use WSF.

I responded that I would take their suggestion, but have been using 231 very successfully with both Berry's and Rainier plated 147 gr bullets.

Rainier 147gr TRN:
3.7gr 231.
1.115 OAL
PF: 129

Berry's 147gr RN:
3.6gr 231.
1.115 OAL
PF: 126.75

Rushthezeppelin
October 7, 2013, 09:26 PM
I was also looking at those nice 150 gr SWCs that Bayou has. Would adding 3 grains make much of a diffference in load....perhaps just stick to 3.4 as a max charge or should it matter much at all?

Jim Watson
October 7, 2013, 09:50 PM
Three grains doesn't matter much but I would look at seating depth.
If the SWC seats deeper in the case, it will call for a lighter load.
I once loaded some 158 gr .38 SWCs in 9mm. Seat them at the maximum OAL the magazine would take and they shot fine. Seat deeper and pressure went up.
Your chamber throat will govern.

Rushthezeppelin
October 7, 2013, 09:59 PM
Lol my chamber throat is as long as the grand canyon :D Magazine will dictate max OAL for me on this gun at least which I think holds about up to 1.165ish

So basically what your saying is I don't have to seat to where the edge of the SWC is close to the case edge? Can I actually seat with the lube groove (which obviously isn't lubed on the coated) sticking out of the case or does that have to at least be in there?

Jim Watson
October 8, 2013, 01:30 AM
It has been a long time, but I recall seating .38 SWCs in 9mm either to the rear edge of the crimp groove or the front edge of the lube groove.

PapaGeno21
October 9, 2013, 12:44 AM
I have been using 3.4g of 231 with the 147's .365 diameter from X-treme and I LOVE them. Recoil is significantly less than standard 115's. I personally find that a heavy bullet going slower is less snap (perceived recoil to me) than a light bullet going faster.

Just figured I would toss that out there.

YMMV

Rushthezeppelin
October 13, 2013, 02:26 PM
On last thing I'm curious about. I've got a RCBS taper crimp seating die that came with a rn and fn plug. Should the regular FN plug work fine on the 150 SWCs or the rounded 148 FN from Bayou?

Kp321
October 13, 2013, 09:33 PM
I have had bad luck with fast powders and 147 gr cast bullets in 9mm. I was getting keyholes until I started using Blue Dot. Excellent accuracy and functioning with the BD load.

mstreddy
October 13, 2013, 09:53 PM
Rush, that flat nose seater plug will be fine for those two bullet styles.

Rushthezeppelin
October 13, 2013, 10:42 PM
TY again Mstreddy. You have been a huge help.

Rushthezeppelin
October 18, 2013, 03:10 PM
Got my Bayous in today. Made some dummy rounds to test for chambering and such, and thank goodness the 150gr SWCs feed wonderfully. Plunk test found that the OAL that gets me off the lands is 1.123. After doing some mathesis I determined the SWCs are giving me about .23-.24 of depth in terms of case capacity.

Doing a 3.4 gr drop of W231 gave me approximately .01 space between the charge and the bullet. That 3.4gr charge is actually what I was going to use for the 147 FN. I was contemplating a 3.2gr charge (should buy me another hundredth or two of clearance) for the 150s, this is below the recommended charge for 147s but with such little case capacity and the super high viscosity of the Bayou coating I think this will still work.

I know I'm probably in fairly uncharted territory, but anyone familiar with the physics of this think that I will have pressure problems? I doubt I will have problems with the 147s as they have a good .03 more clearance set at the same OAL (seem like that 1.123 works great for both bullets, gets me about a hundredth or so off the lands).

KC45
October 18, 2013, 03:54 PM
I load 3.5gr of Win231 or HP38 with 147gr RFN cast bullets for 870 fps out of S&W 59. I also load 3.8gr of same powder for 135gr RFN cast bullet for 920 fps from same pistol. Both have light recoil and is accurate.

Rushthezeppelin
October 18, 2013, 08:09 PM
Well I got to thinking about it and decided to do some measurements on my dummies to try and determine if I'm swagging my bullets when seating. Unfortunately I don't have a collet or kinetic puller so I decided to put a primer only in one of my dummies and create a squib (figured its a good idea to know how one sounds/looks in my gun anyway for future reference). It was one of the SWCs so its got ALOT of bearing surface on my rifling and almost cleared my throat completely. Now the damn thing is stuck, got a rod just undersized for the bore put some from lube in there and it aint budging. I thought squibs were supposed to be easy to get out, as in a few light taps. Anyone know why this thing is being so stingy? My barrel slugs out at .355 and the bayous i got are .356.

At least its lead so if worse comes to worse maybe I can melt it out? Any advice?

Edit: Wow no sooner did I get done typing this up than I took one more good whack at it and it popped out. Guess it just needed time for the lube to get in there.

mstreddy
October 18, 2013, 10:15 PM
Glad to hear you got the stuck bullet out. Now - don't do that again!
But, now you know you have to buy the puller. Or practice your stuck bullet removal.

In any event, you were asking about the load at the OAL that gets me off the lands is 1.123
See if you can get quickload or maybe someone around here can run the numbers for you.
But, from the data above, they are using OALs of 1.115 to 1.135, and some members posted their OALs. Mine -- has been 1.115 @ 3.5grs.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Rushthezeppelin
October 18, 2013, 11:17 PM
Are you referring to the 150gr SWC with the OALs you listed?

J_McLeod
October 19, 2013, 12:07 PM
I used to load MBC 147s with Win 231 using Lee data. They were accurate and pleasant to shoot. After reading posts like the above from rcmodel and ArchAngelCD I switched to HS-6 and liked it better. Now I'm just starting to use Longshot because I can't find HS-6.

mstreddy
October 19, 2013, 02:33 PM
Rush, I was referring to the 147grs with the data/OALs I've posted. I haven't tried any 150s. As someone else mentioned, there should not be much difference in the 3 grs from 147s to 150s.
It seems as if you will use the 147 data for the 150s, so I was listing my COAL since you asked about what OAL to use.

Eddy

Rushthezeppelin
October 19, 2013, 03:00 PM
Okay that answers my question about case capacity then. It looks like you have about .3" of the 147s sticking into the case? So you're only sitting a few hundredths or so off the top of your powder with no problems ehh? Sorry I'm just trying to grasp how the physics of available case volume to powder volume to powder speed works. Anyone know a site where I can get calcs for this type of stuff, I'm a bit of a hobby physicist/mathalete so I could probably understand it pretty well.

Rushthezeppelin
October 23, 2013, 10:07 PM
Finally got a chance to go out and test the new loads.

I started off by firing some factory and some of my Berry's 124gr loads as a bit of a control.

First off tried 5 147gr FN over 3.4gr 231. Holy crap was this a sweet load. Wish I had rolled up more of them. The lightest kick I've felt yet on my 9mm (with alot less muzzle flip compared to straight back recoil). Also no pressure signs, nice clean burn and cycled my action perfectly. To top it all off this round is showing me just how accurately I can shoot with a handgun. I honestly thought I was a much worse shot but managed to place all 5 of those 147s in about 2.5" at 7yds offhand slow aim. That is vastly better than even my Berry's were shooting.

Next I moved to the 150gr SWCs over 3.2gr 231, loaded 10 of those. Quite a different story with these rounds. First off they had slightly more kick I think than my Berry's 124gr, although not as much as factory rounds (I swear I'm about done with factory rounds, I'd rather go buy once fired from the local range now instead of making my own once fired). Accuracy was a bit worse then the 147s but still much better than any of the other stuff. Every brass I picked up from this batch also had a white flake or two on it. I wonder if this is the bayou coating turning to ash and sticking to the cases, never seen anything like it with any other rounds. Also they burned pretty darn dirty....about as dirty as factory. To top it off I think I'm seeing my first signs of pressure, the primers are filled flatter into the primer pocket. The actually firing pin dents didn't get popped out any though and they certainly aren't loose in the pockets.

I'm guess I would be correct in assuming I probably need to back off .1 if not .2 gr for the 150s? Does it sound like I just have a hot round, not necessarily dangerous just hot n snappy?

Forgot to mention one thing, I REALLY liked the 150s for the holes they punched. They were pretty. The 147s weren't bad either but didn't leave a flawless hole like the SWCs. I really hope I can work up a good load for those 150s though as those SWCs will make it alot easier on judges in IDPA and 3 Gun.

All and all though I'm happy. 2nd and 3rd loads worked up without blowing up my gun :D Also no keyholes which for some reason I was worried about with the 150s (from the 2 dummies I pulled I think I swaged them slightly from .356 to .355 and actually that squib showed me my barrel is .3535 at the start of the rifling so I dont think I'm undersizing them). Also as far as I can tell I have no leading, granted I don't quite know what to look for but my barrel just looks like its dirty with burnt/half burnt powder.

mstreddy
October 25, 2013, 09:26 PM
Rush,
What was your OAL on those 150s? You may reduce pressure a bit by seating them a bit longer, and maybe experiment with dropping .1 or .2 grains. Do you have access to a chronograph? It might help in the load dev phase.
On the SWCs cutting neater holes in the paper, that is what they are designed for. The sharp edge/shoulder on them will cut clean through paper.
Eddy

Rushthezeppelin
October 26, 2013, 10:41 AM
They are at 1.105ish. Thats max I can seat without hitting my rifling. And yes I know thats what swcs are made for, just nifty to see first hand. Im trying some 3.0gr next time I can get to the range.

Rushthezeppelin
October 26, 2013, 04:26 PM
Well just got back from my second IDPA match. Used the 147s over 3.4gr for the match and they performed wonderfully. No malfunctions, rounds felt consistent (best I can recollect through the adrenaline rush at least), accuracy was good at least with the bullets not so much me. Barrel cleaned up in 5 patches with no discernible leading. Was nice having less recoil as I was getting back on target quicker.

Also got a chance to try out 10 of those 150s after the end of the match that I rolled up last night. Put them over 3.0gr with that 1.105 OAL. These were a treat to shoot. Recoil was so freaking light I almost thought I was shooting a .22. They all barely cycled my action and had just enough to lock my slide back. Spit brass a foot and a half to the side of me too whizzing fairly close to my face, should be nice for keeping my brass together at an indoor range. Unfortunately I couldn't really test accuracy because they had just picked up the target stands, but as far as I could tell I was seeing dirt fly right on my POA so they should be good. Still had fairly flat primers (seemed a bit less than before but not much) but I doubt I can go any lower without having cycling issues. Seriously though talk about bunny fart loads. If you have a heavier action I would probably try 3.1gr (not sure exactly how light my action is on my CZ clone). All in all it is definitely workable to use 231 on these although I will probably switch to RS Silhouette once I find some of that, hopefully that will alleviate the slight pressure signs I'm getting.

mstreddy
October 26, 2013, 10:58 PM
Sounds like it's working for you. Good to hear.
Now, crank out a couple thousand of those 147s and get to plinking.

Rushthezeppelin
November 2, 2013, 10:38 PM
Had an interesting day at the range today with my two loads (as well as getting to blow up a car with tannerite as well as getting to shoot a bolt action 50 :D).

150gr all performed consistent and accuracy seemed good (wasn't on paper today, just steel) although I was pulling rounds to the left all day for some stupid reason, I think it had something to do with shooting at the line instead of in a match and not getting my stance correct for most of the day, doubt it was the load. Shot almost 200 of em and only had one fail to feed where the round ended up almost vertical. I think maybe the round before didn't quite cycle enough to catch the case head and dragged it out a bit by the extractor groove. Had another fail to feed on the first round of a mag that I think might have been because I was hand cycling it and not hitting my slide release. Probably doesn't help that I have a coke bottle going on halfway down the case probably throwing it of spec (I don't have a case gauge I just use the plunk test) but its still got an almost 99% reliability in my barrel. Anyone think a Lee FCD will fix this without swaging the base of my bullet?

147s came out pretty crappy today. Fired off a little over 50 and had one stovepipe and 3 that were wet farts, kept checking for squibs after these but they all left the barrel. Honestly though when I loaded these up the other night I noticed my .34cc cavity on the autodisk was all over the place compared to what I've seen on the rest. Had a few times I did a check that came out 3.2gr. Pretty sure what happened was one of my cats that is obsessed with being in w/e room I'm in probably threw a bunch of static on my hopper and made my throws sticky in the disk. Either that or the crazy 9" overnight thunderstorm we had when I was loading it. Going to have to whoop out a dryer sheet to try and remedy. Anybody ever notice static problems reloading inside the house during a thunderstorm?

sexybeast
November 2, 2013, 11:40 PM
231 is my powder of choice and my lead 147gr bullets arrived yesterday so this is a timely thread for me.
I'm going to start out with 3.3gr and go from there. OAL to me is usually determined by your barrel. If it fits in the mag and fits in the barrel, its where you start from. Too many times I have gone by the OAL listed in the book and it won't go all the way into the chamber because it engages the rifleing.
Right now I shoot a 122truncated with 3.7gr of 231. When I bump it up to 4.0gr the group starts to spread out with a few fliers. I also use a powder disc powder drop, but my problem is the disc does not always go back and reset. I found you have to clean and lube the tube every thousand rounds or so. My scale showes the drops to be right on when I do this maintenance. Keep writing and experimenting with these. Very interesting.

wlkjr
November 3, 2013, 01:20 AM
I've had a Dillon 650 for about a month and haven't actually loaded anything yet. I bought it used and am still reading and absorbing before I jump in with both feet. I do have some Berry 147 RN plated bullets and some Xtreme 124 gr HP. The powders I have are HS6, HS7, and Titegroup. I'm also wanting something soft shooting for my Glocks. After I acquired the 147 plated Berrys, I had some tumbling from some factory reloads in 147gr subsonic. Was told they used Berrys and didn't work as well in Glocks because of the rifling. They did replace my order with some 115 grain that has worked flawlessly. Hoping I can use the 147s without problems.

sexybeast
November 3, 2013, 10:53 AM
Congrats on your 650. You will never have to buy another press again for the rest of your, and your childrens lives. I wish I had bought one and I wish I could afford one now.
I once bought factory "lead" reloads. They were cheap and at the time I did not care about accuracy because back then it was more about having fun. But I did put them on paper and they were terrible, fliers and keyholes out of my Hi-Power. You have no idea the load they are using or even the bullets.
Its been a while since I shot Berrys but I do remember them as being kind of soft lead with a copper plating. Rainier's are very soft, I could make quite a mark on the 150gr hollow base I used with my thumb nail. I load a plated bullet as I would load lead. Some here have written you can push them over 1200fps, and maybe you can, but if they are tumbling then you have to back off the powder.
I just got my 147 bullets and I also am going to be shooting them out of my glock. I'll be starting out at 3.3gr of 231 and going from there.

Lee S. Forsberg
November 3, 2013, 11:01 AM
Maybe I missed it but I didn't see any one using Unique for heavy bullets in 9mm. I tried the 158gr load listed in Lyman #45 for 9mm. It's a hand full but does work. If your going to try it start LOW AND WORK UP!!!!!!

sexybeast
November 3, 2013, 11:10 AM
I really like Unique [when I can find it]. But I have trouble accuratly dropping small amounts of it. It does not meter well out of my powder drop. If I was to use something in the "Unique" speed, it would be AA-7 which meters very well.

Rushthezeppelin
November 15, 2013, 03:20 AM
Well looks like I'm not quite done perfecting this load. After about 300 of the 150s fired I'm finally noticing some leading (just minor 1" streaks near the throat that came out with almost no effort from a new bore brush). This is leading me to believe that I am swaging these things a bit when seating. Not too much of a surprise as about 30% of em get a pretty pronounced bottlekneck towards where the bottom of the bullet is sitting in the case. They have no problems feeding even with some stuff that borders on bulging though. I was thinking since I have a decent amount of leeway on being out of spec but still loading, to try neck sizing only with my brass (i've heard of people doing this with pistol brass by backing the sizing die). I'll have to do some experimenting to find the minimum amount of sizing I can get away with while still having enough neck tension to prevent setback. I have a feeling setback would be REALLY bad on this load considering its only 1-3 hundredths from being compressed.

Should also allow me to back off my flaring die. Right now I have that thing maxed out on flare and it has started getting REALLY stick on some of those cases pulling them off. I'm guessing many of these are getting into 3 or 4 firings and are getting work hardened. I bet I start seeing my first split rims soon.

sexybeast
November 15, 2013, 09:49 AM
I have never heard of necksizing a pistol load. Since I don't get my brass back after a match [it all gets mixed together and then divided] its not a consideration. Since the 9mm is tapered and not bottlenecked I'm not sure it would work well anyway.
I am in the testing stages with the lead 147 bullets I recieved and I have also settled on 3.5gr of 231. I have not experienced any leading yet. We will see after a match and I shoot 2-300 rounds. So far they have been very accurate and soft. I like them.
I have been following this thread but I don't remember if you are opening up the case with simply the "powder through flare die" or if you are expanding the case with a "Lyman M die"? I have five stations and I even have a seperate station for an additonal taper crimp die. So far so good with these 147's

Walkalong
November 15, 2013, 09:56 AM
Ross Seyfried had an article in G&A many years ago about "neck sizing" revolver ammo looking for ultimate accuracy. I never tried it, and I tried a lot of things he wrote about.

AZ Desertrat
November 15, 2013, 01:50 PM
I also use AA#7 for my 9mm....meters great....fills the case. This powder, as I understand it, was designed for the Israeli military for 9mm sub guns.

mstreddy
November 16, 2013, 07:06 PM
Rush, since you seem to be having some inconsistencies, maybe try sorting your brass by headstamp as some brands are thicker/thinner than others. I've found when loading lead this helps me maintain some consistency in belling/expanding and then seating.

Rushthezeppelin
November 17, 2013, 08:50 PM
Well I tried backing sizing die out about a tenth of an inch to create less neck tension. Sure enough no coke bottling or bulging but still plenty of neck tension and no feed issues. Still not sure if this has solved my slight leading as I fired some of my previous batches with it at a 3 gun match. Will update on that issue once I get another 200 or so of those down the tube. If you have a really tight chamber this probably won't be an option for you but my chamber is loose enough for this to work just dandy.

Walkalong
November 17, 2013, 09:55 PM
Since the 9MM case is tapered, and most carbide sizer rings are not, sizing to far down can really give a bulged look down near the case head. As long as you are getting good neck tension, keeping the die up a little is easier on brass and certainly looks better.

but my chamber is loose enough for this to work just dandy. As most are. I only have one tight chambered 9MM, and EMP. The rest will accept sloppy reloads or bulged brass easily. I now check all sized brass with a case gauge, since I never know which rounds might be fired in the EMP.

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