[twoblink]

I'll let the pictures speak for themselves..

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=892838

[Jim March]

Twoblink, sorry, but...you're comparing FMJ ball with hollowpoints, and proving absolutely nothing.

ALL of the bullet pics you provide are of rounds that were designed to expand. Example: bottom-left corner, the "evenness" of the petal tips clearly show that this round was designed to expand.

In areas where only the police/military have guns, it's not uncommon that "ball ammo" is all that's available. Look in the top right - see how the jacket folds over the base of the round? That's so there's no exposed lead to "burn away" during firing and add airborne lead to indoor ranges. It's a typical police-type round; here in the US private citizens CAN buy such things but usually don't (see also "Winclean" and "total metal jacket" ammo, among others).

I do notice some odd things:

* The top-left round hit something substantial flying almost directly back-end-first.

* There's no rifling on either.

* The two rounds are clearly different.

Twoblink has reported elsewhere that both a 38Spl and 9mm case were found, and supposedly both were used in the same gun. Well that's obviously nuts if it was indeed reported that way.

Ok, so what's going on here?

I think this was a homebrew double-barreled (or more?) zip gun with no rifling. God knows what the caliber really was, although 38Spl is believable (stolen police or military ammo?). Either the barrel was short, or the bore was slightly off, like a .36 or bigger bore shooting .355/.357 projectiles. That in turn explains the turd-like velocity, keyholing/tumbling and poor accuracy. I think the shooter took the shells with him in the crude gun, and scattered some random shells taken late at night from a police range to screw up the investigation.

[c_yeager]

You probably didn't make that page but, whoever did has an agenda. He is using dileberatly misleading information to make a point. Saying that the bullets SHOULD look like recovered hollowpoints when they started out as FMJ is just assinine.

[only1asterisk]

Could it be a hoax? Sure! I don't think anything is beyond politicians. I think Jim's explaination is much more plausible. I'd like to see more pictures from other angles. I image the gun was cobbled togeter as Jim described, but that makes me curious about the jacketed bullets. Wouldn't lead be easier to make and better in this application?



David

[twoblink]

The problem is they started out by saying that the gun is homemade, (how they conclude that I don't know, but probably because the caliber is not standard.. the bullet is 8.1mm) and also, that both bullets are suppose to have been fired from the same gun.. (nigh impossible IMHO)

Regardless if it's a hollowpoint or not.. They want me to believe, that the first bullet, hit the winshield, took a 65degree or so turn, hit the VP in the leg, it the floor panel of the jeep, and no deformation?? Ok, let's say that is super duper copper jacketing made of cryptonite. I can handle that. But ...they want me to believe that a Polo jacket pocket stopped the second bullet.. a lead roundnose?? You are joking me right?

They want me to believe that the same gun (and I assume they mean the same barrel) fired both bullets, doing so for both a rimmed and rimless round? The rimmed round is about 50% longer than the rimless btw from the pictures I have seen.

They want me to believe that someone was able to make a copper jacketed bullet at home? If I'm making bullets, they are all gonna be lead roundnose, you can bet your life on that!

Jim, to (not really answer) a (not real question), the police here use 9mm Smith and Wessons, and the military use 1911's (so .45ACP's.) Some old bank security guards that still have their military license, carry Smith Police specials in 38Spl. The showed what looked like 2 manufactured cases, but they say both case mouths measure the same width, 8.1mm, same as the bullet.. Then how did they get the bullet in there?? :barf:

The amount of gun BS is rediculous.. There are pictures of the wound, and pictures of the president, but no pics of the president AND the wound.. The confusion in the beginning was that the wound was not consistent with the type of injury you'd get from a bullet skim (so says the expert gunshot doctor here) and also, the President didn't have any blood on his clothes, only on his jacket.. And there are picture inconsistencies, as there was NO blood on the jacket..

[Jim March]

I'm *theorizing* that the shooter got ahold of complete loaded ammo versus handloading/muzzle-loading. That in turn would explain the jacketed part.

OK, here's one design for a zip gun:

http://www.equalccw.com/zipgun.gif

Note how dirt-simple it is to make. The real problem is that the lack of a "stepped barrel" interior wall means the barrel is too fat for the projectile - it's based on the SHELL diameter. Results: not only is it smoothbore, but velocity and accuracy suck wind.

Exactly as seen in the top two bullets allegedly extracted from the crime scene.

Obviously, several of these can be duct-taped together for a "repeater". Hose clamps and a 90degree pipe bend part gets you a "grip".

Firing is exactly like a kid's slingshot.

They're much easier to make with rimmed cartridges versus 9mm or other rimless auto rounds. Kids in New York used to make them out of car antenaes for 22LR shells.

Betcha good money that's basically what the Taiwanese gun looked like.

[Jim March]

If the outside diameter of the round was 8.1mm and the inside bore of the shell was the same, that'd make sense.

But 8.1mm is an odd size. Hmmmmm. Mebbe 7.62 Tokarev in an oversize barrel would warp out to about that size?

[twoblink]

This is the pic of him on the car. Notice the blood.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=892887

The jacket while the president is walking to the hospital.. notice no blood!!
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=892891

Don't tell me they gave him a new jacket!! :rolleyes:

Jim, the zipgun was my theory too... But there are problems that seriously bother me. For example; if you stole some 9mm and 38Spls, that's fine. But you custom make bullets of very irregular size, yet the casing looks just like manufactured ones? There's no rifling marks on the bullet, and so probably why the suspected that it was a homemade gun; but now they say it was a professional (i.e. something made by a manufacturer).

The biggest hospital was also the closest one. They didn't go to that one. The jeep was a rental, he decided not to take his regular car that day (for some reason). The driver was provided by the Jeep rental company and not part of his security detail!! :what: The security detail always had a hospital planned and notified in advance. They however did not go to that hospital (again, the biggest, the closest, the most famous). The excuse given was that the driver took the pres to the hospital he was most familiar with... But he's suppose to be a native, and everybody is familiar with the biggest hospital, it was down the street! So the next day, the "new" excuse was that there was a very famous "gun shot wound doctor" there at the hospital they went to.. Ok, I can swallow that... Except he was not present, they instead called the president's own family physician to operate on the president! The president's family physician has never seen a gun shot wound in his life, and further more, is a plastic surgeon..

The rediculousness of it all has prompted the defense minister to resign... He can't answer any of the inconsistencies. Either, they seriously screwed up, (or more like a few dozen screwups in a row) or else it was staged.

In the video, when the VP was shot, the she turned to tell the security detail, and he didn't do anything. They didn't stop and he didn't dive in front of the VP or president. From the picture, you can see just how close the gunshot was to the front passenger's head, like 3 inches!! Yet, he didn't do anything... The VP told both the security details (one sitting behind her, the other sitting behind the president) that she was shot, and they didn't do anything. When the president informed them he was bleeding, they didn't panic and didn't really react either..

Someone is SOOO not right here....:barf:

[Jim March]

Ehhhhh...but did he switch jackets?

:scrutiny:

[twoblink]

The "conspiracy theorists" say that because when the president arrived at the hospital, they fenced off the hospital, and only allowed like 1 or two cameras to follow (you know, for safety's sake)... That this was in fact, footage from a different day, not the same day..and just like the faking of the moon landing, they forgot the tiny little details....:uhoh: :scrutiny:

[Lochaber]

Let me see if I understand what you are saying ... Are the theories hinting that there is a huge plot, involving the security guards and the driver or no shots fire at all with the the targets themselves part of the plat.

Case II is simple. Ask to see the scars.

Case I has the serious problem too. A plot that involved and with that many people and they couldn't find a better shot? No sniper squad on the grassy knoll? They are going to make up a wiered gun for the assasination and then use FMJ? You know .... I can buy .22 sabots for my .30 guns, push them to 3300fps and they have some impressive terminal effects. Hell, Remington still sells something like that over the counter.

Don't assume malice where stupidity will do. It could well be some nut with a home made gun, who couldn't shoot worth a dime, and securtity guards who where not paying attention or thinking the VP was pulling their leg. Look at the pictures. With that many people screaming they might have not even heard the shots or the complaint.

This is why you don't ride in a open car if you are a head of state. I thought JFK was reason enough. Heck, even the pope does it.

Loch

[Jim March]

OK, I just did something important.

Folks, follow along:

1) Go to the FIRST picture Twoblink posted. At the top right pic sourced from Taiwanese print media, look again at the pic. The ruler under the bullet is metric-scale - the smallest gradients are in millimeters.

2) Hold a piece of paper up to the screen. Make a mark on the paper's edge where one line is, count eight lines, and make another mark. You now have a "paper ruler" of 8mm scaled to your screen's size.

3) Hold this new scaled ruler up VERTICALLY across the bullet.

4) Now do the same thing on the top left round - the scale is different, so you'll need to make another "8mm scaled ruler" off of that photo plus your measurements will have to eyeball-correct for the squishing at the top rear of the bullet.

Everybody else seeing the same thing I am?

I'm getting a hair more than 7.5mm width on each, NOT "eight point one".

And how fat is a 32ACP?

7.65mm.

It's also the same as 30Luger which was pretty commonly available in China back when they imported Broomhandled Mausers. And the 7.62 Tokarev round, which is also available in China. And for that matter, 32H&RMagnum, which gives a case that looks like a slightly skinnier 38Spl...or the 32S&W/32S&SLong - the latter in particular was quite common all over the world years ago and would also look like a smaller 38Spl.

The 32ACP is a semi-rimmed round that would be well suited to zip guns; the 32S&W series about the same in terms of pressure, power, etc.

It wouldn't be surprising that a buncha US gun nuts could identify the general caliber type faster than the Taiwanese police.

[Jim March]

You know, it wouldn't surprise me if Asian heads of state kept a spare jacket around just in case Dubya's daddy made a special appearance and puked on 'em.

:D

OK, seriously now, given the whole "photo op media world of politics", is a spare jacket very unlikely?

[c_yeager]

You know, if i was going to fake an assination for political gain, i would use EASILY identified casings and leave the gun on the scene. The fact that things arent adding up well actually point AWAY from a conspiracy. it's when all the data fits into a neet little box that things get fishy.

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

twoblink:

That this was in fact, footage from a different day, not the same day..and just like the faking of the moon landing, they forgot the tiny little details....


Your arguments about the shooting sounded plausible right up to the point where you repeated this slur.

Check out any of the websites, including NASA's, that debunk your slur against the Astronaut Corps & NASA sometime.

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/sites/ExternSite.asp?url=http://pirlwww.lpl.arizona.edu/~jscotti/NOT_faked/FOX.html

[Jim March]

Ya, I was gonna comment on that but...it's hardly necessary. Twoblink, that first set of pics you posted comparing FMJ ball to a bunch of expanded hollowpoints utterly destroyed your credibility on this issue.

[Sergeant Bob]

I'm no forensics expert or anything but, looking at the picture of the President with the blood on the outside of his jacket, it appears that there is blood spray on the outside of the jacket.
If he was shot through the jacket, how would the blood spray on the outside?
If he bled enough to go through the jacket, wouldn't there just be a large blotch of blood on the outside? If the blood did indeed spray that hard, would there not likely be some blood on the driver and passenger's jackets also?
In addition, from the pic, it appears (as far as I can tell) there is a large hole or tear in the middle of the blood spot. A bullet going in wouldn't make that large a hole.

[Jim March]

Another thing: anybody want to guesstimate a velocity on these puppies based on the two authentic pics (the ones with rulers next to 'em)?

Hard to be sure but...I'd ballpark it between 500 and 800fps. That's without knowing the composition on the one at the top right though, and not being sure the barrel length and bore were the same that fired each round. Or the same powder charge or even cartridge - the same 32cal zipgun could fire 32ACP, 32S&W up through 32Magnum, although I can't imagine it's the latter.

Is anybody else thinking this could have been a couple of *kids* each with single-shot zip guns? They got ahold of grandaddy's old ammo from his police days in 1930 or whatever stuck up in an attic somewhere, built the guns...? If you're building "one shot wonders", any decent *epoxy* will do instead of the threaded section in the pic I did. For that matter, if you can get ahold of heavy enough plastic pipe, you can make a plastic version that'll hold for one shot. Probably. So long as it's in a mild caliber like 32ACP. Heck, the original Chinese "mortars" used large sections of *bamboo* as barrels, reinforced with rope. You can make multi-shot 22LR zip guns along the same basic layout out of *Oak* or other hardwoods for God's sake.

The lack of rifling really screams "zipgun".

[twoblink]

Jim,

The reason the police first said that it was a home made gun was because the lack of rifling. There's no rifling, so I'm thinking smooth bore right?

OK.. HERE's the other problem..

There are hundreds of cameras on the pres during all this, and since you can time index when the first shot was fired, (because you see a hole in the windshield)

There is a picture of a hand sticking out of the crowd. The hand sticks out, with an object that looks like a gun, you see a ploom of smoke, and then the windshield has a hole. The "shadow" of a figure then disappears, and that is how they at least determine the high of the person. One of the problems is, they are changing the story about the zip-gun, in light of newer footage. What is in his hand LOOKS like a real gun..

So on TV, they showed a metalsmith, who too an airsoft, and converted it to a real 9mm in about 3 minutes. The airsofts here are EXACT replicas of real guns. The magazine, the barrel, guide rod and spring, is all that needs to be changed to convert it to a real gun. I was amazed...

The metalsmith said he has problems with rifling, it's not something easy to do.. So it would have been very easy for someone to steal some bullets, have a metalsmith make him a barrel and parts, and have a pretty much new gun (but again, no rifling).

That is something that I can believe.. So that would end the conspiracy right there...

EXCEPT, someone is gonna have to tell me how a non-zip gun is able to shoot a rimmed and rimless at the same time.

Also, they had measurements of the case mouth and bullet.. Both are "identical". So what, the bullet was never seated in the case???

I think the problem is that the media presents "new" evidence every minute that contradicts what they just said a minute ago. Now I am not sure if that's just the media, or a conspiracy.

Jim, there are pictures of the president being operated on, and he has his shirt and jacket lifted up. First, you don't really see the president and the wound together.. Second, there was no blood on the shirt nor the jacket during the operation... You can say "he has a spare jacket", and I'll buy that, but you are talking about a new wifebeater, a new blue shirt, AND a new jacket, while you are being operated on?? Smells fishy.


Your arguments about the shooting sounded plausible right up to the point where you repeated this slur.

You mean the moon landings WEREN'T faked?? :D

[dwkennedy]

So on TV, they showed a metalsmith, who too an airsoft, and converted it to a real 9mm in about 3 minutes. The airsofts here are EXACT replicas of real guns. The magazine, the barrel, guide rod and spring, is all that needs to be changed to convert it to a real gun. I was amazed...



Oh $h1t, there go airsofts, they're all made in Japan/Taiwan/Korea :(

[4v50 Gary]

Aha! Clever trick of that VP. So, you're saying he hired someone to fake an assassination attempt on his life in a ploy to get himself elected. Now he'll send some real hit men after the doofuses who did the fake hit.

I wonder who was on that grassy knoll in Taiwan and whether there's been any strange sightings over the Straits?;)

[Jim March]

Twoblink: first, those rounds are about 7.6something. Use the "paper measuring trick" for yourself - the rulers in the photos make it easy.

Second, if as I suspect these are 32ACP and/or 32S&W/S&WLong fired from a crude semi-auto, there IS an explanation. 32ACPs look "rimless" but they're actually semi-rimmed. Assume for a sec we're dealing with a crude smoothbore of the shell's diameter. It would have to headspace off the rim, regardless of zip gun or converted airsoft.

Now let's assume we're dealing with an amateur who gets ahold of OLD ammo dating to the defense against the commies and the flight to the island. Why would I think that? Look at the top-right bullet in the first pic you posted. See how it's kinda..."warty lookin'"? It's *old*. Maybe 40+ years.

So our hypothetical idiot gets ahold of a mix of 32ACP and 32S&W/32S&WLong. The S&Ws "look more potent" 'cuz the case is longer (black powder era!).

The S&W won't fit in the magazine of the converted airsoft. But it WILL fit "up the pipe"...with ACPs down the mag following it.

Result: first shot looks like a shrunken 38Spl, subsequent look like small 9mms.

More likely: whoever did this did some practice first with a mix of calibers, and tossed empties at the scene to throw off investigators.

--------

What else...

Granddaddy's ammo stash in an attic somewhere: circa WW2 era in China, weapons access on both the Kumitang and Commie sides was uneven. Somebody having a pre-WW2 or even late 19th century S&W, Iver Johnson or similar small revolver would have been par for the course. With ammo supplies sketchy at best, somebody might have a treasured stash of proper 32S&W/Longs and some 32ACP which would work at reduced accuracy and need to be ejected with a chopstick or something. Hence one gun owner might end up with a stash of both 32S&W/Long and 32ACP.

Another thing: the idea of "8mm handgun ammo" has been bugging me, until I vaguely recalled the Imperial Japanese Army using something like that. Sure enough, there's such a thing as "8mm Nambu". Seems DAMNED likely some of that could have been found stashed away in Taiwan, either left there by the Japanese (didn't they take over for a while?) or taken there by escaping anti-commie forces who had captured it from Japs.

See also this page for pics of Japanese ammo:

http://members.shaw.ca/nambuworld/ammunition&reloading.htm

I'd still call this less likely than the 32ACP/S&W/Long series stuff.

[twoblink]

Gary,

From every poll done the day before the shooting, he was down by 4 points, upwards of 10 points. If I'm the opposition, and I'm up by 4-10 points, do you really think I'd attempt this?

They then, (due to the shooting) won by 0.2%!! That isn't 2%, that's 0.2%!!

The other problem is, there were 330,000 "void" votes thrown out, but the margain of victory was less than 28,000, or about 8% of the void votes.

The other problem that most don't know about is; the President declared a state of emergency (why we have no idea), and so he put all 200,000 police in Taiwan on active duty. Because you have to vote at your registered domicile, most of the police didn't get to vote that day (of which, about 80% would have voted for the opposition).

When you start to add these things up, then your start to smell something fishy and it ain't the left over tuna in the frig...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jim, I think you are on the right track. A 32ACP is a high probability, but is it really possible to shoot someone with it, and have the jacket pocket stop the bullet??

So let's say, a homemade gun, we shove an old bullet in the barrel, the lockup is bad, but it will still fire, we eject the round, and then fire again, its not a big deal that it doesn't load from the magazine, it's just an assassination attempt..

Or if I'm the clever assassin, I shoot, then I drop some casings to throw off the police?

It still doesn't answer why I would shoot at the president when he is passing me sideways.. The Jeep was moving at about 20km/h, that's slow, like 10mph. But still, from the side profile, that means what.. I have less than half a second? Also, The shot would be near impossible if he wasn't in an open jeep and was in his regular car, as you'd have to shoot through a door...

But the most disturbing to me is the front passenger.. A bullet whizzed by your face, the VP started to say she got shot, and nobody panics or makes for evasive manuvers?

Then again, never substitute conspiracy when stupidity will do huh?

[Jim March]

Jim, I think you are on the right track. A 32ACP is a high probability, but is it really possible to shoot someone with it, and have the jacket pocket stop the bullet??

Sure is.

OK, one of the weird issues with bullets and human beings is that if a bullet goes in and through, the skin at the exit has a bit of "elasticity". In other words, say a bullet has enough energy to enter the skin and then travel through 12" of flesh. So it goes in, crosses EIGHT inches of flesh and then runs into the opposite side skin...and stops. The rule of thumb is that it's just as difficult to cross that last skin layer as it is to cross 4" worth of soft interior tissue. (This varies a bit with sectional density, bullet "pointiness" and other issues of course...)

So in other words, on the trip through the soft tissues and then out through that final skin barrier, the round can lose a LOT of energy. It's unlikely it was real hot to start with, and it crossed auto glass first. So ya, popping out the other side with more or less 10fps velocity would be about par for the course. Dropping into a pocket would be odd but quite possible...how many of us have seen hot brass take an odd bounce?

-------------

If it's not clear yet: the 32ACP, 32S&W and 32S&WLong are all just about in the same horsepower range, more or less.

All three can be fired in 32Magnum guns. Single Action 32Mags like the Ruger Single Six don't need much rim due to no ejector star, so work with 32ACP just fine. That's why I think a zipgun or something else that headspaces at the rim could indeed eat both shells reported at the scene.

[twoblink]

Wow Jim, we are digging deeping into this than most of the Taiwanese cops ;-)

So we talk about skin, and the elasticity of it. Something like, how I can cut the plastic bag fairly easily, but when I push it with my thumb, it won't rip.. (tensile strength).

I can buy that.

BUT... how is it that the president is shot from right to left, and the bullet is in his RIGHT pocket??:uhoh: :scrutiny:

[Jim March]

BUT... how is it that the president is shot from right to left, and the bullet is in his RIGHT pocket??

Actually not that weird.

We know from one round that the bullets were tumbling in flight (big hit to rear). Well that means that on impact with the jeep glass, there's literally NO way of predicting the sucker's flight path past that. A full 90degree deflection would be unlikely but not completely impossible; up to 45degree would be quite believable.

Ever seen a football bounce? (US style pigskin, that is.) It's like that, except potentially worse if the rear end hits the glass first.

[joab]

A bullet going in wouldn't make that large a hole.
It might if it was keyholeing which would be likely if it was coming from a POS zip gun.

As far as the 2 different types of rounds could the assasin have been carrying 2 zip-guns.

As far as his choice of weapon. Maybe he was a Hinkley type with limited firearm knowledge.

As far as his timing. Maybe he is just a political nitwit amature. Or just generally stupid. Like Hinkley

[greg700]

Look closely at the bullet at the top left of the picture. It does have rifling marks (the black lines spiraling catty-corner down the bullet). So the bullet was fired from a real firearm, not a zip gun. Also, if they were fired from a short barrel, they would be moving so slowly that I would not expect a great amount of deformation.

[Jim March]

Greg, first I have to disagree re: rifling. Let's look again:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=892838

What I think you're seeing is an "impact crinckle" - the two faint black "rifling marks" are RIGHT at the edge of the area where the back of the round took a flat impact. See? It's like a dented car - you get wrinkles right there. The smooth area below that is just too wide and unmarked - there should be another set of rifle marks visible below those two black streaks.

I could be wrong of course...but...what do others think?

As to barrel lengths: even back in the between-wars period, most 32ACP guns were small - 3" to 4" tubes. The powder charges were set up accordingly. Same for the 32S&W/Long family. Look at pictures of small S&W lemonsqueezer topbreaks of the period 1895 - 1920, and you'll see that few were running barrels past 4" and many were less - they occupied the role 38Snubbies fill today.

So a zip gun barrel or converted airsoft of as little as 4" - 5" could have spat 'em at a respectable pace. That's assuming I'm right as to the general ammo type involved but...I think I've got that pegged.

[Jim March]

Twoblink, you got any more pics of these rounds from other angles from local media?