ACOG needed ASAP for work in Bahgdad


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9mmMike
March 25, 2004, 08:48 AM
Howdy team,
I got a note from my buddy Joe who is a recent arrival in Bahgdad and he has asked that I locate an ACOG for him, pronto.
As I am a pistol and shotgun guy, I have little (read that as none) experience with this kind of stuff so I am asking for help here.
Where can I get a TA011NSN, I think?
The key is the NSN. That designates that it is for the 16" bbl M4, I think.
I will be posting this on a couple high-integrity boards so if you see it again, don't be surprised.
Thanks in advance and please keep in mind why I am looking and where it is going. Prayers for Joe are also appreciated.
Mike

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Bartholomew Roberts
March 25, 2004, 09:33 AM
There are a lot of different ACOG models and several in use in Iraq. The 82nd and 101st are fielding the TA11C on M-14s. The Marines are fielding the TA31F and SOPMOD kit still includes a TA01NSN for the time being.

Did your friend specify which ACOG he wanted? In my experience the versions with the always illuminated reticles (TA11 and TA31 series) are much superior to the TA01 series.

The TA01NSN, TA31F, TA31F-A, TA11F are all designed around a flattop M4-length barrel firing 62gr M855 ammo.

Werewolf
March 25, 2004, 09:44 AM
Uhhhhhh....

What's an ACOG?

Old Fuff
March 25, 2004, 10:06 AM
And to think I thought Smith & Wesson models were hard to understand ...

RED-DOG 40
March 25, 2004, 10:19 AM
http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/parts_new.cfm?categoryID=3
Here is the link for ACOG:D

Harry Tuttle
March 25, 2004, 11:12 AM
ACOGs are 1000 dollar piece of kit

if he needs it
why isn't he issued it by his unit?

http://www.riflescopes.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=TA01NSN
http://www.riflescopes.com/images/TRITA01NSNF.jpg
Trijicon ACOG 4x32


Details


ACOG 4x32 scope with yellow center illumination for M4A1 - includes flat top adapter, backup iron sights and dust cover.


The TA01NSN was designed specifically for the US Special Operations Command SOPMOD M4 Carbine. To meet their requirements, the reticle bullet drop compensator and range finding stadia lines are based on the trajectory of the 62 grain bullet from a 16 inch barrel, flattop mount (Picatinny rail Mil.Std.1913).

9mmMike
March 25, 2004, 11:13 AM
Thanks BR. The TA011NSN is the number he gave me and I see a TA01NSN on the Trijicon page that fits the M4 so I am guessing that's the one.
His request was for the one that "it is for the 16" bbl M4".
Mike

Harry Tuttle
March 25, 2004, 11:28 AM
$819 appears to be the low price today:
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=TA01NSN&btnG=Search+Froogle&scoring=p

nope! found an active military discount:
http://niceshot.net/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=niceshot&Product_Code=mil-Trijicon-TA01NSN&Category_Code=mil

Code: mil-Trijicon-TA01NSN
Price: $812.00

Shipping Weight: 3.50 pounds

Active Military Only


We are getting an increasing number of orders and calls from active military personnel.
In cooperation with select manufacturers we are able to offer special discounts and priority to all active military personnel.
ALL ORDERS MUST BE SHIPPED TO MILITARY BASES TO QUALIFY FOR DISCOUNT / PRIORITY.

Zak Smith
March 25, 2004, 11:34 AM
Contact Mike Cecil at CSGunWorks.Com

He gives excellent service and often has ACOGs in stock. They are extremely rare right now.

-z

9mmMike
March 25, 2004, 11:51 AM
Thanks guys. Excellent links. I am very grateful and I hope to be able to get this done quickly.
The shipping to "military base only" thing could be tough since he already shipped out but I am on it.
This place rocks!
Thanks again,
Mike

9mmMike
March 25, 2004, 12:08 PM
if he needs it why isn't he issued it by his unit?


Don't get me started! He was buying boots (and packs) for his guys right up until they left (with his own money) so that they weren't wearing black. The army treats their guys like crap IMHO. :fire:
You might ask why they could not take their tanks (cause they send the "wrong message"). It's all I can do not to scream out loud. Grrrrrrr.

Thanks again for the links.

Mike

Travis McGee
March 25, 2004, 12:59 PM
Does it HAVE to be an ACOG? Why not an EOTech, for half the cost?

hapafish
March 25, 2004, 01:24 PM
I just came out of a yearlong deployment to Iraq not too long ago. Was based in Al Qayarrah, up north halfway between Mosul and Baghdad, at an abandoned Iraqi Airbase.

The way it worked for my battalion is ACOGs were issued en masse I think around August of 2003 ... mid-deployment and far too late, of course, but oh well. The Battalion Scouts already had them but the rest of us mortals? Perish the thought. Anyways with the limited number available (methinks it was planned that way) it turned out to be one per squad. So after a series of qual ranges, eligible M4 riflemen swapped out their Aimpoints for ACOGs. Those with 203s or SAW people (like myself) weren't even in the running, for obvious reasons. Later, by the time I swapped weapons out during deployment (again) and got an M4 back, I lived with the Aimpoint. Which, personally, I despise.

9mmMike, your friend is going to need the rubber caps for the ACOG (an accessory) to cover front and back ... or at least some sort of scope cover. The rubber caps work best and they come off readily. I also suggest removing that ridiculous honeycomb glare filter (not shown in the pic) as it has a distressing tendency to gather much dirt and dust and is impossible to clean.

Oh and about buying boots and packs? I totally understand. Most of my hard-earned money went to buying gear while I was in deployment. I really appreciated the tax breaks, as they enabled me to devote my meager salary (enlisted levels, remember) to replacing bootlaces, packs, straps, shirts, and other wonderful things the supply system never seemed to have available for me when I needed them. Then again my last company supply sergeant just got busted for drug use (tested positive for cocaine, marijuana, amphetamies, and ecstacy ... I kid you not) so maybe that explains things a bit.

9mmMike ... oh and one thing: DO NOT SHIP TO HIS HOME BASE IN THE STATES. He may never see the package. Something like 90% of what was sent to me at Fort Campbell never reached me in Kuwait or Iraq. I came back to garrison to find piles of my mail, stuff I had sent out to myself like FP-10 lubricant, various weapons cleaning kit parts, and other things. True for everyone else I have talked to in other units besides. Wait until your buddy has a definite APO address you can ship to, send it yourself, and mark the contents as "personal letters" or something equally boring. Mark it down as "snacks" or "tobacco products" and the guys in the mailroom will likely steal it.

Ask your buddy what else he needs and once I get out from leave I will goto the shops around post and see what I can find, if it is hard to find usually. Tell him I wish him good hunting over there.

Peace out.

444
March 25, 2004, 01:36 PM
I just ordered an ACOG TA31F two days ago from SWFA (http://www.riflescopes.com/store/departments.asp?dept=225 ). They had it in stock and I recieved notice that it was shipped via UPS that day. However it is going to take UPS until the 29th to get it to me. I checked the tracking number this morning and after two days it is still in Texas. I have done a lot of business with SWFA in the past and they are a great company to deal with. They usually have pretty good prices. I am sure that with enough searching you may find a place that beats them but I don't even try. As was mentioned, the problem is finding someone that has ACOGs IN STOCK.

By the way, the price for the TA31F on their website was $1,075.99. When I called them the price was $975.90 out the door including the lens covers that were mentioned earlier in the thread. The one you want is less money.

SodaPop
March 25, 2004, 01:41 PM
www.dsarms.com

told me they have them in stock.

I would talk to them and see if they can give a discount on them.

hapafish
March 25, 2004, 01:45 PM
SodaPop, good one ... http://www.dsarms.com is awesome ... and they ship quickly with great service ... if I ever get an ACOG I am probably buying from them.

Werewolf
March 25, 2004, 02:32 PM
OKAY!

Now I know what an ACOG is and what a great tool it is for a combat soldier.

But for the rest of us?
Putting a sight on a weapon where the sight costs more than the weapon just - seems - well - wrong.

Each to his own I guess.

Zak Smith
March 25, 2004, 02:37 PM
Werewolf,

Spending the rifle's cost again on the scope and mounts is standard fare for a bolt rifle. Why is that so strange in this case?

One look through a TA11 and I was hooked.

-z

444
March 25, 2004, 02:46 PM
"Putting a sight on a weapon where the sight costs more than the weapon just - seems - well - wrong."

I have been on this rant many times but...............................
I don't see the logic in this argument. First of all, let's say someone gave you a rifle free, does this mean that you now can not equip the rifle with good optics because it would exceed the price of the gun ?
What do the price of optics and the price of guns have in common ? Why would one have any bearing on the other one ?
Let's assume you have tried an ACOG and think it is the cat's meow. You would love to have one and don't have any real issue with the price other than the fact that you paid less for the gun itself. So, you decide you won't buy it. The result ? You still have a gun without an ACOG.
How about this, I will sell you an AR15 for five thousand dollars cash. That way, the optic doesn't cost more than the carbine and you will be happy.
Good quality optics are not cheap. They are precision instruments and you simply can not buy precision instruments for $15 no matter how much some people wish you could.
And of course, while I am on this rant, caliber also has nothing to do with what you spend on optics. If you have a .22 or a pellet rifle you deserve to have good quality, clear optics just as much as someone that has a .300 Win Mag. In fact you deserve them more because you will no doubt be using the .22 a lot more than your .300 Win Mag.

TechBrute
March 25, 2004, 03:09 PM
Does it HAVE to be an ACOG? Why not an EOTech, for half the cost? I don't even know where to begin. You basically asked, "why does it HAVE to be a pickup truck? Why not a motorcycle?"

Two different optics for two different purposes. If you ever see look through the two, you'll know what I mean.

WhiteKnight
March 25, 2004, 03:22 PM
In fact you deserve them more because you will no doubt be using the .22 a lot more than your .300 Win Mag.

Thank God someone else finally said this! :) I cannot express to you the sheer number of arguments I've gotten in with friends because I have a $350 scope on my $170 .22LR.:(

Many of my friends have a .22LR that they use weekly, and they think it's stupid to spend more than $50 on a scope for it.

Yet these same people have Leupold VarixIIIs or even a couple of Swavorskis on their deer rifles that get used about a half dozen times per year, with about the same number of shots.

:rolleyes:

Call me an upstart whippersnapper with his head not firmly attached to his shoulders, but I believe I would rather spend a total of $500 on a deer rifle I'll use about a dozen times per year, and a total of $1000 or more on a .22LR that I will use about every other day (range in back yard).

9mmMike
March 25, 2004, 04:46 PM
Not in stock at NICESHOT or DSARMS. Backordered up to 25 weeks! I may try a regular TA01 and adapter as an alterative. Still looking though......
I sure wish I could just pick up the dang phone and talk to my buddy. Grumble grumble grumble...
Thanks.
Mike

Bartholomew Roberts
March 25, 2004, 05:03 PM
You may also want to look at the TA31F - it is a more recent and, in my opinion, a better design. It has all the same specs as the TA01NSN with the following differences:

A fiber optic tube on top that keeps the sight illuminated during the day and allows you to use both eyes open for close-in targets.

No sights on top of scope (which are useless on the NSN anyway)and unneeded if you keep both eyes open and use the scope as an occluded eye gunsight for close shots.

Different reticle - check out the Trijicon site for pictures of the reticle.

The TA31F is what the Marines purchased and I've seen some private purchase units in use with the Army as well. They are a little more expensive; but are probably easier to find as they are popular for 3-gun and other work. One of the reasons the TA01NSN is tougher to find is because most people prefer the TA31 or TA11.

If you don't mind used, check out the Equipment Exchange at AR15.com:

Here is a TA01NSN for $650 shipped:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=23&t=203321

I may try a regular TA01 and adapter as an alterative.

The regular TA01 is set up for a 20" barrel and 55gr. ammo, as well as being mounted from the carry handle. You can compensate for this by sighting it in about an inch high at 100m and you'll track fairly close to the reticle after this. Really though, the TA31F or TA11F are better products.

444
March 25, 2004, 07:38 PM
"Not in stock at NICESHOT or DSARMS. Backordered up to 25 weeks! "

Hello !!!!!
Did you call SWFA ?
You can lead a horse to water.............................

556A2
March 25, 2004, 10:10 PM
How do you tell what ACOG is calibrated for M193/M855 or barrel length? Its not listed on Trijicon's website, except for the TA01NSN

Zak Smith
March 25, 2004, 10:12 PM
Call Trijicon. Their tech department can tell you the exact specs.

For what it's worth, I shoot a TA11 which was calibrated for 55gr M193 from a 20" barrel (3120fps). Instead, I shoot 75gr OTM from a 20" bbl (2650fps). At 400 yards, I'm only 5" low versus the bullet-drop stadia lines.

-z

Travis McGee
March 25, 2004, 10:27 PM
TechBrute: I should have asked "do you really need magnification for the duty you're pulling?" If fast reaction firing at 0-200 yards is all you really need, an EOTech will do it very well, and then you can spend $500 bucks on some other piece of needed gear. That's my opinion.

natedog
March 25, 2004, 10:30 PM
Just curious- If you had to clear a house with a 4x ACOG equipped M-4, how would you use a 4x scope at close range? Or would you just switch to the tube mounted irons?

Zak Smith
March 25, 2004, 10:31 PM
Regarding red-dot vs. ACOG:

At SMM3G just two weeks ago, the short-range CQB in-the-darkhouse stage was won by a guy shooting a TA11 ACOG (3.5X). The long-range rifle stage (300 yards) was won by a guy with a Holosight.

Go figure.

-z

444
March 25, 2004, 10:35 PM
The Nature of Binocular Sighting

Human vision is based upon a binocular (two eyes) presentation of visual evidence to the brain. The word binocular literally means using both eyes at the same time. We most often associate this word with binocular instruments such as field glasses or a binocular microscope. These instruments specifically strive to present the object to be viewed the same way to both eyes.

Vision research material was examined for its assistance to understand the optically aided weapon aiming process. Three major types of optical enhancement were compared. There are strong customer preferences in reticle designs, some simple reticles enhance the speed of target acquisition, others allow for greater precision in a given time limit.


The simple substitution of a bright red dot for the usual cross-hairs makes it very easy to keep both eyes open. Just as in the Single point or Armson O.E.G. sighting, the brain merges the two images. During dynamic movement, the scene through the telescope blurs because the image moves more rapidly due to magnification. The one eye sees the bright dot against the blurred target scene, so the brain picks the scene from the unaided eye. The shooter swings the weapon towards the target while perceiving the dot indicating where the weapon is pointed. As soon as the weapon begins to become steady in the target area, the brain switches to the magnified view.

A long search was made to try to combine the speed and non-battery features of the Singlepoint or Armson with the precision of the telescopic system. This discovery was made several years ago. Trijicon has sponsored research in the field of human vision to better understand this generic phenomenon. Although the study concentrated on the Armson O.E.G., some aspects are applicable also to the Bindon Aiming Concept.

Taken directly from the Trijicon website; please don't sue me I am an insignificant working stiff.

Wildalaska
March 25, 2004, 10:49 PM
I have them in stock. However Trijicon works with MAP pricing, and I take that seriously...I can make exceptions for military...email me.

artherd
March 26, 2004, 03:04 AM
I've got a $700 scope on a $495 rifle. Couldn't be happier!

I'm getting the same $700 scope for a $1600 rifle too.

Forget silly hangups, use what works and/or what you like.

9mmMike, I am sure your buddy will get the gear he needs in a most timely fassion thanks in part to the class of people we have here at THR.

lostdog
March 28, 2004, 01:18 AM
psequip@bellsouth.net...has 2

Werewolf
March 28, 2004, 01:38 PM
WildAlaska informed us that:

However Trijicon works with MAP pricing, and I take that seriously...

What is MAP pricing?

Bartholomew Roberts
March 28, 2004, 04:00 PM
Minimum Advertised Price - you cannot advertise a price lower than a minimum set by Trijicon.

waterdog
March 29, 2004, 12:23 AM
Brownells carries them also. Ask about military discount.

Retail is about $1000 bucks , their discounted price is approx $870

waterdog

444
March 29, 2004, 07:42 PM
I got my TA31F today.
I am glad I didn't spend weeks looking for the absolute lowest rock bottom price. I am going to take the time I saved and shoot it as soon as I finish my Burrito Supreme. :uhoh:

9mmMike
March 29, 2004, 08:37 PM
Thanks everyone!

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